Stupid question about QM2

vitalyzator
1st March 2007, 01:14
Hello! I hope you wouldn't mind if I'll ask some stupied question about QM2. The question is: Is QM2 ocean liner or cruise ship and why? I really would appreciate good argumentation, since it would help me to make point in Russian-language discussion about the matter. While I state that QM2 is indeed ocean liner, most other forumites say that it is a cruise ship. So I decided ask this queston here. Thanks.

treeve
1st March 2007, 02:00
In a nutshell, Cunard call her an Ocean Liner.
http://www.cunard.com/OurShips/default.asp?Ship=QM2
What there is to discuss? The owners have spoken.

John Rogers
1st March 2007, 03:37
She is also a cruise ship because she does take passengers on a cruise, and not take passengers from point A to point B. like the liners of years ago.For instance she take a world cruise and then returns to the same port. Its a hard question to answer

treeve
1st March 2007, 04:16
Yes, but you could use a saw head to drive in a nail but it don't make it a hammer.

Stephen J. Card
1st March 2007, 06:13
She is also a cruise ship because she does take passengers on a cruise, and not take passengers from point A to point B. like the liners of years ago.For instance she take a world cruise and then returns to the same port. Its a hard question to answer



But she does make scheduled runs on the Atlantic... taking passengers from A to B... makes her an liner... WHEN EMPLOYED ON THOST RUNS.

Some seem to think that her size and speed make her a liner. Size and speed have nothing to do with it. There have been enough liners of less that 20,000 tonnes and with speeds hardly approaching 20 knots let alone 30.

Stephen

fred henderson
1st March 2007, 12:39
Most liners built during the 20th Century spent part of their lives undertaking cruises. QM2 was built as a liner - to take over the Cunard transatlantic scheduled service from QE2. Like QE2 she sails on cruises when not on her scheduled route.

Without a doubt QM2 is a liner.

Fred(Thumb)

non descript
1st March 2007, 13:04
Hello! I hope you wouldn't mind if I'll ask some stupied question about QM2. The question is: Is QM2 ocean liner or cruise ship and why? I really would appreciate good argumentation, since it would help me to make point in Russian-language discussion about the matter. While I state that QM2 is indeed ocean liner, most other forumites say that it is a cruise ship. So I decided ask this queston here. Thanks.

Definitely not a stupid question and thankyou for asking it. Thanks also to Fred for his concise answer.

(Thumb)

Lksimcoe
1st March 2007, 15:49
I'm sure some of the more informed people will correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that she is considered an Ocean Liner for 2 reasons. 1 being that she does transatlantic crossings, but more importantly, she has had her hull strengthened to withstand the North Atlantic, something that most new cruise ships don't have, hence why they take the southern route across.
When Cunard announced they were building the Queen Victoria, they made a big deal about her having the strengthened hull that a Liner requires for the North Atlantic, and there would be 3 liners when completed.

vitalyzator
1st March 2007, 20:38
Hello again.

Thanks for everyone who answered. I called my question “stupied” as it is like the type of questions that tend to cause “holy wars”. To give an example: apart from ships, I'm also interested in public transit, and I've withessed and, on lesser degree, participated a lot of such “holy wars”. Most of them were about differences between traditional tram/streetcar and LRT (light rail). There were discusion about whether some particular transit system would be better defined as tram or LRT, or even LRT or metro.

Now I come back to the subject, thus QM2. The duscussion took place here: http://www.forum.infoflot.ru/index.php?showtopic=14347

Since the discussion is in Russian, I would translate most important arguments from both sides.

My arguments were the following

*QM2 travels from A to B, not in circle. One-way tickets can be purchased
*Norh-Atlantical line has few in common with most cruise lines: there are no exotical islands on the way, ship doesn't make intermideate stops
*There are no excursions in harbour included in the price

The contrarguments of my opponents were

*There are also one-way cruises, also transatlantical. The Southampton – New York line was even called “classial cruise line”.
*Cruises can be found almoust everywhere, not only in Carraibean sea and other warm seas.
*In general, excursions in the harbour are not included in the price of the cruise.
*Most people who cross Atlantic on board of QM2 do it for pleasure, not for business.
*Most people who travel on QM2 do it for travel itself, not to go to particular destination. They are the sea-cruises livers. If QM2 didn't excist, they would go on thransatlantical cruise of Royal Carraibean, for example. If QM2 worked on other line, they would travel on QM2 anyway. In short, most QM2 passengers travel on this ship, rather than travel to the specifical destination. They don't make choise between QM2 and aeroplane, they may make choise between QM2 and other cruise ship.

My contarguments to these arguments were:

*Other transatlantic cruises are quite different from QM2 transatlantic journey. For example, Royal Carribean ships stop in five or even more (up to ten) harbours during their transatlantic journey. These journeys are also longues than QM2 (I mean time, it takes RC ships up to two weeks to cross the ocean)
*Even if excursions are not inclided, still the journey is ajusted to the “for fun” type of tavel (I think you understand what I mean).
*The fact that the ship or another verhicle is used mostly by tourists doesn't make it automatically cruise vehicle. For example, San Francisco cable cars (compare to QM2) are used mostly by tourists, but they are still part of the city public transportation system, unlike sightseeing buses (to be compared with pure cruise ships)
*I would not make such statements about QM2 passengers travel motivation without any sociologial statstics. Neverthanless I'm shure that there passenger who travel QM2 not only for the fact of thavelling this ship, but to actually get to the destination. As exmple, I would give myself :) Unfortunately I have not travelled QM2 yet, but I hope to visit USA ( despite all controversary, it is still very intresting country). And though I would like to travel QM2 most (great ship!!!), the sea voyage itself would not be the only purpose of this voyage. If I wouldn't be able to travel QM2, I would use aeroplane. I would not use Royal Carribean ships, since 14-days long journey is too long for me, while 6-days long QM2 crossing is just OK.

Stephen J. Card
1st March 2007, 22:32
Hello again.



My contarguments to these arguments were:

*Other transatlantic cruises are quite different from QM2 transatlantic journey. For example, Royal Carribean ships stop in five or even more (up to ten) harbours during their transatlantic journey. These journeys are also longues than QM2 (I mean time, it takes RC ships up to two weeks to cross the ocean)
.



Vitaly,

Of course you must remember that in the past not all liners made their voyage from A to B without calling at several, or more, ports en route.
P&O liners running to Australia and New Zealand would call at many ports outwards and homeward bound..... on 28 day voyages. Your counterarguement, no ports and short voyages does'n't hold. On the other hand there are many cruise ships that make positioning voyages across the Atlantic each year with very few stops and the passengers are definitely only travelling in 'opne direction'.

The great liners on North Atlantic run were sometimes called 'The Atlantic Ferry'. I think there is your answer. QM2 is not a cruise ship or a liner... she is a FERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

QUEEN VICTORIA is most definitely a cruise ship. She may well have some additional strengthening in the hull but at the end of the day she is a clone of Holland America's Vista Class ships and a near sister to P&O's ARCADIA. Her primary purpose will be cruising and her Atlantic voyages will only be for positioning purposes.

Stephen

John Rogers
1st March 2007, 22:57
With the number of members on this board you will get a lot of different answers, I am surprised Pompey fan has not weighed in yet. But below is another definition.

An ocean liner is a passenger ship or passenger-cargo ship which transports people and often freight from one port to another along regular trans-oceanic routes according to a schedule. The term also refers to vessels designed to engage in such trades, even if temporarily used for other purposes (such as on cruises or as troopships). The category does not include ferries or other vessels engaged in short-sea trading, nor cruise ships where the voyage itself, and not transportation, is the prime purpose of the trip. Nor does it include tramp steamers even if equipped to handle limited numbers of passengers, nor other cargo vessels (although many shipping companies refer to themselves as "lines" and their container ships, which often operate over set routes according to established schedules, as "liners"). Ocean liners typically were strongly built with high freeboards to withstand sea states and adverse conditions encountered in the open ocean, and had large capacities for fuel and other stores which would be consumed on their multi-day or multi-week voyages.

Ocean liners were the primary mode of intercontinental travel for over a century, from the mid-19th century to the 1960s, when they were finally supplanted by airliners. In addition to passengers, liners also carried mail and cargo. Ships contracted to carry British Royal Mail used the designation RMS. Liners were also the preferred way to move gold and other high value cargos. [1]

The busiest route for liners was on the North Atlantic with ships traveling between Europe and North America. It was on this route that the fastest, largest and most advanced liners traveled. But while in contemporary popular imagination the term "ocean liners" evokes these transatlantic super-liners, most ocean liners historically were mid-sized vessels which served as the common carriers of passengers and freight between nations and among mother countries and their colonies and dependencies in the pre-jet age. Such routes included Europe to African and Asian colonies, Europe to South America, and migrant traffic from Europe to North America in the Nineteenth and first two decades of the Twentieth Centuries and to Canada and Australia after the Second World War.

vitalyzator
1st March 2007, 23:34
Thanks for your detailed answer

Vitaly,

Of course you must remember that in the past not all liners made their voyage from A to B without calling at several, or more, ports en route.

This is absolutely true indeed, but still I think that modern cruise ships and old liners operate in different modes.

Imagine liner that travels from A to F calling intermediate ports B, C, D and E. I suppose, that the main goal for calling these ports was to let people from A to B, C to E, B to F etc.

Now imagine modern cruise ship that travels along the same route and calls the same intermediate ports. Now, most passenger travel from A to F, and B, C, D and E are called mainly to allow passenger to visit those cities. It seems logical that the ship now stays for a longer time in the intermediate ports, so passenger can visit the city.


On the other hand there are many cruise ships that make positioning voyages across the Atlantic each year with very few stops and the passengers are definitely only travelling in 'opne direction'.


So the conclusion can be that there is no clear border between liners and cruise ships anymore. Obviously, the transatlantical voyage is alvays made at least partly for the voyage itself, but we can speak about more transit-orientaded voyages (like QM2 transatltnatic service) and more "just for fun" voyages, like those of Royal Carribean. Though, one can travel with QM2 only for the pleasure of sea voyage itself, while someone else can use Royal Carribean as transport, with purpose of getting to particular destination.

Would you agree with this idea?



The great liners on North Atlantic run were sometimes called 'The Atlantic Ferry'. I think there is your answer. QM2 is not a cruise ship or a liner... she is a FERRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)



Here comes another controversial point. When I think about a ferry, I imagine a vessel that is used to cross some obstacle - a river or a channel. The function of such vessel is more like bridge or tunnel, actually it rather belongs to the road network than to the water transport system. Well, nowdays a lot of ships called "ferries" are used for different purpose - thay are not crossing obstacles where no alternative is possible, they actually travel along obstacle, parallel to the shore, like ferry from Rostock to Helsinki.

So rather than call QM2 a ferry, I would call many ferries a short liners (I mean liners for short lines).

vitalyzator
1st March 2007, 23:36
With the number of members on this board you will get a lot of different answers.


True indeed. There are some questions where people will never totally agree, since everybody can use different definition.

SeaStoryWriter
2nd March 2007, 05:31
Wether she's a liner or a ferry doesn't worry me, but those big slab sides on all of them scare the h*** out of me. I'm not so worried about the WNA line as I am the size of the waves that sometimes approach on the beam. WILL

Lksimcoe
5th March 2007, 16:38
Sea Story

You sound like my partner. It took me months and months to get a maybe about going on a transatlantic crossing.

And then I rented the DVD Poseidon.

Now it's not only no, but HELL no.

Serves me right.

:P

SeaStoryWriter
6th March 2007, 06:48
Silly thing is I'd cross on the old Mauretania, or even the Titanic if they leave out the iceberg part. Greetings to all from sunny California. WILL

Keith Adams
6th March 2007, 07:06
Way back on Sept @ 2005. fred henderson had this same thread going under
the title:-" What is the deffinition of a Liner?" ... there were lots of good replies
... thought you may want to look them up. Snowy

WhiteStarOlympic
14th October 2007, 01:29
the way i see it, is that you can refer to an ocean liner as either that or cruise ship. yes i would say that the queen mary 2 is an ocean liner, but basically i don't believe that there is much difference between the names. i've always thought that an ocean liner would be a ship that was as long or longer than 650. and the queen mary 2 is way over that. sure ships back in the 20th century like olympic or titanic, were not called "cruise ships" persay, but not everybody on those ships were immigrants, some people, mostly first classers came on just for fun, or because the maiden voyages of both ships, were sure to be a big event.or simply because they were popular ships. olympic and titanic had set the standards that would eventually evolve into the ocean liners or cruise ships we know today. they were amongest the frist ships to have swimming pools or spas aboard. however nowadays people dont' travel immigrate to other countries by ships mostly anymore. now most people want fun or a vaction, but some of this is what the people of the early 20th century did as well. so as times change, obviously an ocean liners purpose would change as well. proving that they are still very much the same.

Burntisland
14th October 2007, 04:41
Seems to me the definition would lie in current deployment. S.S. France was indeed an ocean liner due to the fact that she was "lining" between US ports and Europe. However, when she was sold to NCL and deployed on Carribbean sorties with multiple stops and slower speeds, she indeed became a cruise ship by definition.

Tony Breach
14th October 2007, 19:43
Any liner operation (airline, shipping line, bus line, truck line etc.) is by definition a common carrier. i.e. There must be a schedule, a tariff, a contract of carriage & a fare, (or freight), must be paid. The line must advertise its schedule & tariff & anyone can then buy a ticket - the owner must then put his vessel on the berth & carry the ticket holder to the stated destination. A passenger on a common carrier has greater rights than on a particular carrier due to having a contract with the carrier. The waters are a little muddied today as we have cruising passengers on liner voyages but while this in itself is not new, it is far more common than it was years ago. It may be reasonable to assume that one may be able to cruise on a liner but it is very difficult to obtain liner terms as a passenger on a dedicated cruise.

wa002f0328
14th October 2007, 22:01
Let,s get them all lined up, and go for the Blue Riband, there would not be many left after the first hurdle(Thumb)

WhiteStarOlympic
17th October 2007, 02:17
Let,s get them all lined up, and go for the Blue Riband, there would not be many left after the first hurdle(Thumb)
I'd imagine Queen Elizabeth 2 would win. I heard that she can travel faster backwards than most ships can go forward. such a shame to retire a ship with that ability.

Dickyboy
4th June 2009, 19:14
Hello! I hope you wouldn't mind if I'll ask some stupied question about QM2. The question is: Is QM2 ocean liner or cruise ship and why? I really would appreciate good argumentation, since it would help me to make point in Russian-language discussion about the matter. While I state that QM2 is indeed ocean liner, most other forumites say that it is a cruise ship. So I decided ask this queston here. Thanks.

Hi!
As I understand it (And I'm probably wrong) any deep sea ship on a regular route/service with a timetable is considered to be a Liner. Not just passenger ships, many other types of vessel opperate a Liner service. Some Car Carriers, Container ships, cargo ships etc etc can all be classed as liners. The old terms were "Cargo Liners" & "Passenger Liners" I should imagine that some sort of contract would be required to opperate a liner service. So even if the QM2 were crusing between several ports, and to the cruises timetable, she wouldn't be classed as a Liner.
It certainly isn't a stupid question by the way.
Cheers! (Thumb)

Shipace5
12th May 2010, 18:22
This not stupid question, so some might have such thik about QM2.
QM2 is a ocean liner. it make transatlantic voyages. I readed of yournal about the liner. It sailing on the historyc line on the Atlantic ocean. It line was also for Titanic.
Queen mary 2 make also Europa cruises at sommer.
I think that QM2 is ocean liner