First British Diesel engined trawler?

davetodd
19th July 2007, 19:30
Can anyone confirm or repudiate that the "BEARDMORE", GY 121, O.N. 146871 built 1920 was the first diesel powered trawler?

Best Regards
Dave Todd

Steve Farrow
19th July 2007, 20:27
Dave,
I thought she was built as a steam trawler and converted to diesel. As far as I'm aware the first trawler to be built AS as diesel vessel was the British Columbia, registered in June 1935.
Regards
Steve

gil mayes
19th July 2007, 23:17
Interesting. BEARDMORE (146871), 227g built by Cochrane 9.1920 was certainly a motor trawler. Her propulsion was an oil engine 2 stroke 4-cyl by W. Beardmore & Co Ltd, Glasgow, however this engine was built in 1915 but fitted in 1927. She was owned by Grimsby Motor Trawling Co Ltd, Grimsby ( W.F. Goodwin, manager). She was sold in 1927 to J. M. Scott, Kew, Surrey and renamed LILIAS with Grimsby registration retained. All this begs the question, why was she called BEARDMORE?
Gil.

davetodd
20th July 2007, 00:37
Interesting. BEARDMORE (146871), 227g built by Cochrane 9.1920 was certainly a motor trawler. Her propulsion was an oil engine 2 stroke 4-cyl by W. Beardmore & Co Ltd, Glasgow, however this engine was built in 1915 but fitted in 1927. She was owned by Grimsby Motor Trawling Co Ltd, Grimsby ( W.F. Goodwin, manager). She was sold in 1927 to J. M. Scott, Kew, Surrey and renamed LILIAS with Grimsby registration retained. All this begs the question, why was she called BEARDMORE?
Gil.
Thank you Gil and Steve,
This gets more interesting.
From Barry Johnson's excellent site "Milford Trawlers" it would seem the "Lilias" worked out of Milford Haven as GY 121 under the management of P.Hancock&Sons from 1927 until laid up and sold to France in 1931.
The steam to Diesel conversion raises more questions:-
Where did the conversion take place, Grimsby,Beardmore's yard or Milford?
Why would a trawler owner choose a secondhand engine? Subsidised? Cheap fix before selling on?
What is the connection between Grimsby, Kew and Milford?
Who is/was Lilias?

Recap.......Beardmore still the first Diesel powered British trawler?

Visit to Grimsby Archives indicated.
Best Regards
Dave Todd

birgir
21st July 2007, 15:01
Hi everyone.

I cannot resolve this quandary, but just add my 2 cents worth. My Lloyds 1925 has her listed as motor trawler, so it is a fair deduction that she was fitted from the outset with a diesel engine. The Beardmore company is a likely instigator. It was technically a progressive company, that sought to diversify into various new fields. (It was however financially a basket case, and managed to loose money on most things they attempted). In 1920 it was one of the leading engine builders of the british empire, and had been producing diesels for e.g. submarines. In USA the diesel trawlers were very successful in the twenties, and quickly replaced the steam trawlers. (Powering the winch was the main problem). It would have been logical for Beardmore to try to create a market for their diesels in the fishing fleet, and if it had been successful, it might have changed the fortunes of the company. Similarly, with a glut in the trawler market in 1920, only a technical leapfrogging could have provided a market for the shipbuilders, so Cochranes has a strong incentive too, to support the experiment. Thus it is really interesting that it was such a resounding failure in Britain, while such a great success on the other side of the Atlantic.

Birgir Thorisson

gil mayes
21st July 2007, 15:38
I think you are correct Birgir and that the 1915 engine fitted in 1927 was a replacement for the original diesel engine. Dave, I am not quite sure what you are trying to draw from the comments about ownership in Grimsby, Kew and Milford. Many trawlers were owned by people outside the established fishing ports, take a look at this one from FMHT database.

LOUISE (SA50/FD120) (1919-1920)
O.N. 124720. 270g 93n. 125.7 x 22.1 x 12 feet
T.3-cyl by Shields Engineering Co Ltd, North Shields

23.7.1907: Launched by Smith’s Dock Co Ltd, North Shields (Yd.No.353) for Colonel Arthur Thomas Slooett, Paignton & Mrs Marion Louise Ryde, Godalming (Crawford Heron, manager) as the Louise. 8.1907: Completed. Registered at Swansea (SA50). 13.3.1913: Sold to George Hogarth Douglas Birt, Milford Haven. 4.6.1913: Mortgaged to Henry Hyde Hextall. Eastbourne. 8.1914: Requisitioned for war service and converted for minesweeping duties (Ad.No.144). 1915: Admiralty Number became (Ad.No.965). 16.5.1917: Mortgage discharged. 25.5.1917: Sold to Taylor & Tomlinson Ltd, Fleetwood. 25.5.1917: Mortgaged to The London City & Midlands Bank, London. 31.3.1919: Swansea registry closed. 1.4.1919: Registered at Fleetwood (FD120). 1920: Returned. 1920: Sold to M.J. vander Eb & Dresselhuys, Scheepvaart Maats, Rotterdam (J. Nierinck, Ostend, manager). 3.2.1920: Fleetwood registry closed. 2.1920: Renamed Baron L Donny. 1922: Sold to Jules H. Nierinck, Fleetwood (J. Nierinck & Co Ltd). 5.10.1922: Renamed Alec Nierinck (FD414). 1925: Sold to Melling Steam Trawlers Ltd, Fleetwood (Henry Melling, manager). 15.9.1925: Renamed Tom Melling (FD414). 1930: Delete manager. 1932: Sold to Alexander Keay, Fleetwood. 19.1.1932: Renamed Bahama (FD414). 31.1.1941: Sold to J. Marr & Son Ltd, Fleetwood for £7500. 4.5.1942: Sold to The Crampin Steam Fishing Co Ltd, Grimsby (H. G. Crampin, manager) for £8600 (Fleetwood based). 3.1945: Sold to Pettit & Youds Ltd (Frank L. Youds, manager), Milford Haven. 7.11.1945: In bad weather stranded on rocks off Berehaven Island. Refloated on next tide with little damage. Returned to Milford (Sk Cherrington). 16.4.1949: Outward for fishing grounds in thick fog off St.Ann’s Head in collision with P & Y (M1). Returned to Milford for repairs (Sk W. Reynolds). 19.4.1949: Sailed on completion of repairs. 1956: Sold to Brugse Scheepsloperij, Belgium for demolition. 24.7.1956: Delivered Bruges.
Gil.

Roger Griffiths
25th July 2007, 21:13
Dave,
I thought she was built as a steam trawler and converted to diesel. As far as I'm aware the first trawler to be built AS as diesel vessel was the British Columbia, registered in June 1935.
Regards
Steve

Hello Dave,
The returns of Grimsby fishing boats 1919-1923 and 1924 -1928 (attached)
would seem to agree with Steves theory. Motor vessels were entered in green ink and steam ships in red ink. Of course this could be a clerical oversight.
I would try and get hold of BEARDSMORE's registration documents which should tell you when she engineered/re-engineered as a motor vessel.
If they are available they will be in the national archives, File reference BT110/991.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=343019&CATLN=6&accessmethod=5

If you use the Digital Express option the cost is 8.50, 24 hr service, no find, no fee.

regards
Roger

davetodd
26th July 2007, 00:30
Thanks to all for the helpful and interesting replies, much appreciated.
Now for an update.

A recent visit to the N.E.Lincs archives has given the following
From the Grimsby register of ships 1922,
Beardmore Reg.No. GY 121 Built 1922 Selby Type Motor Ketch ON 146871
Length 115 ft. Breadth 22 ft. Depth 12 2/10 ft. GT. 226.61 NT. 122.19

14/10/1922 Grimsby Motor Trawling Co.Ltd. Fish Dock Grimsby.
15/7/1927 John Macdonald Scott Kew Surrey

Ship name change under the sanction of BoT given on the 30th July 1927Minute No. M/RG. 1313 1927. LILIAS
Certificate cancelled and the registry closed this 18th day of August 1931.
on sale of vessel to foreigners ( French Subjects ). Advice received from Owner.

George of "RIVERSEA" states that BEARDMORE was the FIRST Diesel Trawler built by Cochranes of Selby and that his information does not show a Diesel Trawler being built in the North East shipyards ( from Amble to Grimsby )

Barry Johnson of "Milford Trawlers" states that the Lilias was the FIRST Diesel
trawler to work from Milford.

Lloyds register of 1922-23 gives Beardmore as NO CLASSIFICATION but with Oil Engine 2 Stroke cycle, single acting, 6 cylinders of bore 17" and stroke of 24"
built by Beardmore of Coatbridge Glasgow.

Lloyds register of 1923-24 gives Beardmore ON 146871 +100A Class MOTOR TRAWLER 1,23 +LMC 1,23 Oil Engine 2 stroke cycle, single acting,
4 cylinders 17"-24" 100 RHP. Built by Beardmore.

It would seem that the Beardmore was certainly built as a Diesel Trawler and with a Beardmore Engine.
So perhaps the engine makers had an interest in the future of this vessel.
If so then it would be short lived since when the vessel was soldin 1927 the Beardmore engine had been removed and replaced with a 4Cyl Bolinder which was still in her in the early 1960's.

Once again many thanks to all for your interest and input.

I still haven't answered my question yet but got a bit nearer I feel.

Best Regards

Dave Todd

birgir
26th July 2007, 18:09
Hi fellas.

Interesting that the ENGINE failed. Most commonly, it was the winch that gave trouble in early diesel trawlers. (There was even troublt post-ww2 with british built ships).
Surprising to learn that she was re-engined with a Bolinder. I am used to think of Bolinders, not as diesels, but as kerosene powerplant for motor-boats, up to 50 tons. Quite popular here in Iceland in the Inter-war era.

Birgir Thorisson

nicolina
27th July 2007, 02:05
Regarding problems with winches:
Between 1959/60 Faroese owners had 3 trawlers built at a Portugese shipyard
in Viano do Castelo their names:Leivur Øssurson Vágbingur and Òlavur Halgi
they had Danish built electric winches wich gave a lot of problems and lost fishing time. In the end all had new winches fitted by German winchfactory
M.Anghelis-All problems cured but it took it time and did cost a lot of extra money so it is important to choose the rigth equipment first time.
One of the trawlers now working as an guard vessel offshore still uses its winch.
Regarding British built winches one of the first British built diesel trawlers Lammermuir
bougth to the Faroes and re-named Jógvan Elias Thomsen had an electric
trawl winch wich gave exxelent service through her entire career only had to change the Coals/Brushes from time to time but that winch was supplied by
one wery good supplier Robertson of Fleetwood world famous for its winches.
Her winches was built in 1950 and she was scrapped in the late 70thies.

davetodd
9th August 2007, 11:10
Can anyone confirm or repudiate that the "BEARDMORE", GY 121, O.N. 146871 built 1920 was the first diesel powered trawler?

Best Regards
Dave Todd
Just uploaded copies of cuttings to the Gallery from Grimsby News1923 and Fishing News 1924 and 1935.
These reports, although in some respects seem inaccurate, they do lead me to conclude that "Beardmore" GY121,was the FIRST Diesel engined trawler to be built in and fishing out of Britain in 1923.
I accept the information given in the Lloyds registers that were consulted
rather than the newspaper reports are concerned regarding where and when built and by whom.
The reference to "the trip was successful,her catch comprising a hundred levels and two score of fish" has me puzzled.
Anyone have a translation for these quantities?
Best Regards
Dave Todd

Gavin Gait
5th September 2007, 00:31
Probably 100's of levels of Kits Dave ( a measure of 10st usually a metal drum ) and the 2 score fish just means that 40 fish left over.

Davie(Thumb)

davetodd
5th September 2007, 23:15
Thanks Davie.
Kit as a 10stone measure was commonly used in GY.
Dave

mattarosa
15th September 2007, 10:37
Good morning everyone
I thought this article from the Times might be of interest.

Tuesday, Jan 09, 1923
The New Motor-Trawler Hope Of Cheaper Fish.

The advent of the new motor trawler will, it is claimed, reduce the cost of trawling and hence enable fish to be placed on the market in better condition and at cheaper price. There has been built to the order of the Grimsby Motor Trawling Company, which has just been formed, a new type of oil-driven trawler, which, it is said, will entirely revolutionize the industry. the new vessel, which is named, The Beardmore, has successfully passed her trials, and will begin operations next week. The company propose to build other motor trawlers gradually until they have a fleet of at least ten to twelve vessels.

Mr John S Doig, who is prominently associated with the fishing industry in Grimsby, said that the new vessel was 115ft long, and her oil installation, which eliminated the coal bunkers necessary on a steam-driven trawler, enabled her to have an equal fish-carrying capacity to a steam-trawler 135ft long. In addition to reducing the fuel bill, which was at present excessive, and which had had the effect of compelling owners to "lay up" their vessels, the new motor-trawler would, he claimed, enable economies to be made in other directions. The cost of a water supply and of periodically cleaning and repairing the boilers, and the renewal of fire-bars, would be eliminated, while another not unimportant expense, the preparation of the steam vessel for sea, would also be abolished. With regard to labour, however, there would be little or no saving.

Mr Doig stated that on a voyage to the White Sea fisheries, a steam trawler, on a very moderate average, would burn seven tons of coal a day. This, with coal at 30s a ton, meant 10 10s a day. The new type of trawler would burn a ton and a quarter tons of oil, which taking oil at 4 a ton, worked out at 5 a day, or less than half the cost of the steam-trawler. Also, the motor-trawler would be able to carry sufficient oil to enable her to exceed the radius of the steam-trawler without having to return to replenish her supply of oil. She could seek the most distant and richest fishing grounds and could bring her "catch" home in a better state of preservation, without refrigerating plant, as there was no question of heat to be contended with, such as was the case on board the steam-trawler.

Bill Davies
15th September 2007, 11:13
Can any of the Engineers advise why the numbering on British built diesels commences at the free end and vice versa on German and all other diesel engines.

davetodd
15th September 2007, 13:46
Good morning everyone
I thought this article from the Times might be of interest.

Tuesday, Jan 09, 1923
The New Motor-Trawler Hope Of Cheaper Fish.

The advent of the new motor trawler will, it is claimed, reduce the cost of trawling and hence enable fish to be placed on the market in better condition and at cheaper price. There has been built to the order of the Grimsby Motor Trawling Company, which has just been formed, a new type of oil-driven trawler, which, it is said, will entirely revolutionize the industry. the new vessel, which is named, The Beardmore, has successfully passed her trials, and will begin operations next week. The company propose to build other motor trawlers gradually until they have a fleet of at least ten to twelve vessels.

Mr John S Doig, who is prominently associated with the fishing industry in Grimsby, said that the new vessel was 115ft long, and her oil installation, which eliminated the coal bunkers necessary on a steam-driven trawler, enabled her to have an equal fish-carrying capacity to a steam-trawler 135ft long. In addition to reducing the fuel bill, which was at present excessive, and which had had the effect of compelling owners to "lay up" their vessels, the new motor-trawler would, he claimed, enable economies to be made in other directions. The cost of a water supply and of periodically cleaning and repairing the boilers, and the renewal of fire-bars, would be eliminated, while another not unimportant expense, the preparation of the steam vessel for sea, would also be abolished. With regard to labour, however, there would be little or no saving.

Mr Doig stated that on a voyage to the White Sea fisheries, a steam trawler, on a very moderate average, would burn seven tons of coal a day. This, with coal at 30s a ton, meant 10 10s a day. The new type of trawler would burn a ton and a quarter tons of oil, which taking oil at 4 a ton, worked out at 5 a day, or less than half the cost of the steam-trawler. Also, the motor-trawler would be able to carry sufficient oil to enable her to exceed the radius of the steam-trawler without having to return to replenish her supply of oil. She could seek the most distant and richest fishing grounds and could bring her "catch" home in a better state of preservation, without refrigerating plant, as there was no question of heat to be contended with, such as was the case on board the steam-trawler.
Many thanks to Mattarosa for a very interesting article.
I had not connected Mr John S Doig with the Beardmore or Grimsby Motor Trawling Co. in my research.
Doigs were a very influential company in Grimsby for many years so I will certainly follow up on this article.
Thanks again
Best Regards
David S Todd

mattarosa
16th September 2007, 20:03
Many thanks to Mattarosa for a very interesting article.
I had not connected Mr John S Doig with the Beardmore or Grimsby Motor Trawling Co. in my research.
Doigs were a very influential company in Grimsby for many years so I will certainly follow up on this article.
Thanks again
Best Regards
David S Todd


Thanks David
I am always interested in any information/pics about Doigs.
Hilary

aavh
18th September 2007, 10:21
Do not want to Interfere but thought I would point out that The history of Cook, Welton & Gemmell has the following recorded..
Montreal: (H211) O.N 99595 139g 63 n. 99.0 x 20.5 feet
33 NHP: C D Holmes Hull
30.03.1893: Launched Cook, Welton & Gemmell Hull (YdNo98) 19.05.1893: Registered for Humber Steam Fishing & Ice Co Ltd Hull. 31.03.1913: Sold to George Wheeler Hull. 18.03.1914: Sold to J White Hull (23nhp diesel engine fitted Torbinia Eng Co).1920: Sold to D Petrie Hull renamed Ladyloan. 1929: Sold to R A Gray Hull renamed Edmee. 1930: Sold to J Weser Groningen Germany and converted to cargo vessel.. 14.05.1931: Sank during storm of Vegiland. This would appear to be six years before "Beardmore"

Hope this helps

Andy

davetodd
18th September 2007, 23:04
Do not want to Interfere but thought I would point out that The history of Cook, Welton & Gemmell has the following recorded..
Montreal: (H211) O.N 99595 139g 63 n. 99.0 x 20.5 feet
33 NHP: C D Holmes Hull
30.03.1893: Launched Cook, Welton & Gemmell Hull (YdNo98) 19.05.1893: Registered for Humber Steam Fishing & Ice Co Ltd Hull. 31.03.1913: Sold to George Wheeler Hull. 18.03.1914: Sold to J White Hull (23nhp diesel engine fitted Torbinia Eng Co).1920: Sold to D Petrie Hull renamed Ladyloan. 1929: Sold to R A Gray Hull renamed Edmee. 1930: Sold to J Weser Groningen Germany and converted to cargo vessel.. 14.05.1931: Sank during storm of Vegiland. This would appear to be six years before "Beardmore"

Hope this helps

Andy
Thanks for the info. Andy, and it is not seen as interference,the more facts received leads to a closer approach to the right conclusion.
I believe that two WHALERS were built by Smiths Dock of Middlesbrough in 1911 and were fitted with Polar Diesel Engines. However, I don't think that they were designed as Trawlers.
What I'm trying to establish is which was the first British trawler designed and built as a "Motor" trawler.Since the Montreal was a steam to motor conversion then she doesn't fit the criteria.
Interesting points you have made about the engine change to Montreal
are the apparent lower nhp and the company Torbinia Engineering.
They had a foundry and engineering works in Cleethorpes and during WW2 made armaments.
It is long gone now.
Regards
Dave

Nilocd
14th April 2008, 12:49
hello AAVH
I am reseaching the engine builders of Lowestoft, steam and 'motor' and interestingly found that the Torbinia marine engines, NAT, were built in a brand new engine works at Oulton Broad.An article appeared in the Motor Ship and Motor Boat dated 27th Nov. 1913. It mentions the 'Montreal' as having a NAT engine being fitted. Nilocd.

brianwnz
4th April 2010, 03:59
Many thanks to Mattarosa for a very interesting article.
I had not connected Mr John S Doig with the Beardmore or Grimsby Motor Trawling Co. in my research.
Doigs were a very influential company in Grimsby for many years so I will certainly follow up on this article.
Thanks again
Best Regards
David S Todd

Hi Dave,

I know this thread is a bit old by now, but I've only just found it. I'm researching the early diesels & semi-diesels made by Beardmore, hence my interest. I'd love to get some more info on the "Beardmore" engine though. The Lloyds listing of 1923-4 gives 100 RHP; what is 'R'HP? Is it different to BHP? I have a copy of The Fishing News 10 April 1920 when the Beardmore hull had just been launched. Proposed fit-out was to include a 600 BHP engine 'specially designed', to give 12 knots, from specifications of Sir John Beardmore (I've only heard of Sir William to date).

You mention an interest in J S Doig. He is listed as an agent in William Beardmore & Co ads in The Fisherman's Almanac of 1923, and also one John Salmond Doig of Grimsby England gets a mention in US patent 1,481,829, (dated 29 Jan 1924, but applied for in 19 October 1920), along with William Beardmore and A E L Chorlton (a Beardmore engineer), regarding "Power Apparatus for use on Vessels" - it covers an interesting propulsion/winching power split system. I think I obtained the copy from FreePatentsOnline site.

Would love any more info you might have on the Beardmore vessel, especially her original engine.

Regards,

Brian

davetodd
5th April 2010, 17:13
Hi Dave,

I know this thread is a bit old by now, but I've only just found it. I'm researching the early diesels & semi-diesels made by Beardmore, hence my interest. I'd love to get some more info on the "Beardmore" engine though. The Lloyds listing of 1923-4 gives 100 RHP; what is 'R'HP? Is it different to BHP? I have a copy of The Fishing News 10 April 1920 when the Beardmore hull had just been launched. Proposed fit-out was to include a 600 BHP engine 'specially designed', to give 12 knots, from specifications of Sir John Beardmore (I've only heard of Sir William to date).

You mention an interest in J S Doig. He is listed as an agent in William Beardmore & Co ads in The Fisherman's Almanac of 1923, and also one John Salmond Doig of Grimsby England gets a mention in US patent 1,481,829, (dated 29 Jan 1924, but applied for in 19 October 1920), along with William Beardmore and A E L Chorlton (a Beardmore engineer), regarding "Power Apparatus for use on Vessels" - it covers an interesting propulsion/winching power split system. I think I obtained the copy from FreePatentsOnline site.

Would love any more info you might have on the Beardmore vessel, especially her original engine.

Regards,

Brian

Hello Brian
If you send me your e-mail address via a Private Message on SN, I will send what I have on the Beardmore.
Dave
p.s. R.H.P. means Rated Horsepower but is a theoretical measure based on size and speed. Brake horse power may be four or five times greater than the Rated Horsepower. Probably used during early stages of the vessel's design.(Whaaa)

gkh151
5th April 2010, 18:07
Hi to All,

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/wiki/William_Beardmore_and_Co.

For those interested there is a history of W Beadmore here including their links to shipping and marine engines. It does make interesting reading.

Also there is a interesting write up about Doigs in the last issue of trawler years. It was printed last year so copies may still be obtainable.

Their web address is thisisgrimsby.co.uk.


Cheers.

Graham

raf1387
29th March 2012, 21:44
Just picked up on this thread. I have the builders GA for Beardmore which shows a diesel engine. When I get home I will check the winch drive. Also have a photo of her being towed down the river for fitting out.

davetodd
29th March 2012, 22:25
Just picked up on this thread. I have the builders GA for Beardmore which shows a diesel engine. When I get home I will check the winch drive. Also have a photo of her being towed down the river for fitting out.
Hi raf1387
I would be most interested in what you discover.
Best regards
Dave

japottinger
30th March 2012, 14:17
Odd that in Ian Johnston's history of Beardmore there is no mention of this engine or ship.

raf1387
2nd April 2012, 11:55
The builder's GA shows an Epicylic gear for winch drive at the forward end of her four cylinder engine.