SS Independence/ AKA Ocenanic

Paul UK
17th August 2007, 17:56
Maritime Matters report solid information but not confirmed that the Independence has been sold to breakers and will slip away during the next 4 weeks or so without as much as a goodbye.

SS United States Next !!!!!!


Paul(Cloud)

Sorry about spelling

Paul UK
20th August 2007, 17:38
It is confirmed Independence has been sold to Indian Interests for onward sale, you know what this means.

Watch out SS United States

Paul

Bruce Carson
20th August 2007, 17:46
Sad.

I really believe she is the best looking liner afloat today.

Her end was inevitable, once NCL took possession.

Bruce C

Paul UK
20th August 2007, 19:44
Hi Bruce I agree about NCL.

Our US members need to rattle some cages as the SS United States is on the same slope as the Indy being owned by NCL.

Paul

lurline
20th August 2007, 20:23
hace anyone news from the liner??
new pictures ??

Paul UK
20th August 2007, 20:49
Most up to date of this sorry state appears to be on Maritmematters.com

Paul

Jeff Taylor
21st August 2007, 14:15
Reuben Goosens has quite a piece on Indie and US, along with details of Leon Black's Apollo hedge fund buying a controlling interest in NCL/Star. www.ssmaritime.com.

Paul UK
21st August 2007, 16:46
Hi Jeff he is were I get my info from

Paul

needadditionalinformation
21st August 2007, 18:13
To my knowledge, we only had 2 passenger liners left, and she was one of them.

Jeff Taylor
21st August 2007, 19:27
True, with the exception of whichever of the Santa Rosa/Santa Paula Grace Line sisters is still cruising the Med and Australia for Louis Cruise Lines under one of their "jewel" names (sorry, too lazy to look it up, but info's on the site).

Santos
9th September 2007, 20:26
They wont scrap the United States - apart from the controversy this would cause, the US Military have a say in what happens to her. I have heard she still has stuff on her still classified as secret which includes something to do with her propulsion.

Chris.

David Wilcockson
9th September 2007, 22:23
Chris
I thought it was the underwater hull lines that were classified, but stand to be corrected; something to do with a "Yorkovitch Hull" (spelling may be wrong).
David

Paul UK
10th September 2007, 07:39
Hi Guys if the miltary still has a say in the running of the SS United States then why was the sale to NCL a none US company allowed.

Paul

Bruce Carson
10th September 2007, 14:03
An over fifty year old turbine installation is just that--an over fifty year old turbine installation. How do you spell OBSOLETE in capital letters?
The military has no say in running the liner, nor would they want one.
They have more than enough on their hands attempting to dispose of ships from lay up without causing international controversies.

Bruce

Santos
10th September 2007, 18:52
I was told this information by an American friend who was in the USN - I had no reason to disbelieve him - Of course Bruce you obviously know better.

Chris.

Jeff Taylor
10th September 2007, 19:47
Basically, the United States' plant is pretty much a copy of a Forrestal class carrier's propulsion--240,000 hp if I remember correctly.

Santos
10th September 2007, 20:43
Thanks Jeff

Chris.

Bruce Carson
11th September 2007, 12:47
I was told this information by an American friend who was in the USN - I had no reason to disbelieve him - Of course Bruce you obviously know better.

Chris.

Hello Chris, by your tone it would appear that you take exception to my posting regarding the 'United States'.
When I reread what I wrote, I can see your point. It was not meant to be abrupt or discourteous, but it was not the most civil thread that I've ever written.
Please accept my apologies.

Regards,
Bruce

needadditionalinformation
11th September 2007, 16:29
Not to add gasoline on this one, but Bill Miller wrote a great book about the United States (http://www.amazon.com/Ss-United-States-Americas-Greatest/dp/039303030X/ref=sr_1_2/002-5737184-9324841?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189523499&sr=1-2) which related that once upon a time performance details were classified. These things do change with time though, and the Forrestal class carriers are a matter of history now.

The book does relate, if I recall correctly, that while the S.S. France was restored to service in cruising and the S.S. United States wasn't, that the reason was foreign ownership possibly preventing the S.S. United States future use as a troop/hospital ship.

That was roughly 30 years ago, hot on the heels of the Vietnam war, and they haven't made serious use of troop ships since, though that may've not been clear back then.

I am an American, and while not U.S.N., I've certainly been around enough military folks to that bad information (incorrect, mistaken, outdated and otherwise) makes it's rounds, intentionally and otherwise, through their ranks just like any other grouping of humans.

Paul UK
11th September 2007, 17:02
See Blue lady in newscaster now read Independence and SS United States.

Paul

Santos
11th September 2007, 18:48
Bruce,

Thank you, apology accepted (Thumb)

Chris.

lurline
27th December 2007, 20:31
hello
is the Independence now on the way to alang or is she laid up in frisco?
i built now a modell of here!how many times she was in a yard?
every picture from here that i have,she is rebuilt!
my plan from the 50`s is good but ..........i dont no what i built

mcotting
27th December 2007, 20:58
I think that the old Monterey is still steaming (under non-US flag).

lurline
27th December 2007, 21:06
the old monterey is no more at the sea!
she is scrap finish ;-(
last name "monte"

mcotting
27th December 2007, 23:09
Sorry about the faulty information.

lurline
28th December 2007, 06:49
no problem mcotting no problem ;-))

Tony Breach
28th December 2007, 20:41
Pity they don't cut off that beautiful counter & mount it outside one of the wonderful American maritime museums.

Somewhere I have read that it was the underwater bits of the BIG U that were classified but that a waterline model that was sold on from either the U. S. Lines or a travel agent's front window was later found to be a builder's model and when removed from the "sea" was found to have a fully detailed underwater form. Anyone else know of this story?

lurline
29th December 2007, 09:36
have anyone news from the INDEPENDENCE !!!!
and not from the big U!!

Jeff Taylor
3rd January 2008, 17:25
Latest I've heard on Independence is that she is scheduled to depart mid-January under tow for India.

Peter Eccleson
17th January 2008, 10:44
Following the general tone/sentiments of this thread.... ssMaritime is looking for someone resident in the United States of America to lead their 'Save A Classic Liner Campaign' for the SS United States.
Any interest see http://www.ssmaritime.com

Peter (Read)

lurline
17th January 2008, 15:58
hello peter
yes it is a great site ....but no news !!

bigUlover
29th January 2008, 04:16
This thread is very depressing... I don't think I'll support NCL if this goes forward....

Lisa

Paul UK
29th January 2008, 14:27
Lisa

Your sentiment is spreading far and wide after they scrapped the Norway and Independence your Big U is at great risk if nobody in the US picks up the batten and helps her.

Paul

lurline
7th February 2008, 20:50
is anyone from frisco here!
stay the lady now at the pier70 ?or is she gone??

lurline
9th February 2008, 19:52
she is gone on 08.02.08 ;-(
sad .....very sad , time to say goodby
i hope she sinking by her sister & the white lady 1 britanis!
i will never forgett you white lady 2

lurline
9th February 2008, 19:55
it is a scandal from star / ncl line!!!!!!!!!!
the same story than the she do with the SS NORWAY!

Jeff Taylor
9th February 2008, 22:22
She was taken to sea under tow on the 8th in a heavy fog supposedly bound for Singapore before undoubtedly heading for India or Bangladesh. Again, NCL has so far skirted the niceties of the Basil treaty which forbids exporting contaminated vessels to third-world countries, and don't tell me she doesn't have asbestos, pcb's, and who knows what else onboard. Photos of her under tow are on Reuben's and Martin Cox's websites.

Paul UK
10th February 2008, 09:00
Hi Jeff

I agree with your sentiments 100% as you are in the US has there been any murmours regarding the SS United States or do you think that NCL will be able to tow her to "Singapore".

Paul

lurline
10th February 2008, 09:40
look the norway!
she go NEVER to singapur and never rebuilt as a casino!!!!
NEVER! NCL can say the sun is shining and it is a lies!

and i promise you,the big you is following the two lady !!!!

D Sutton
10th February 2008, 17:38
Its old, out of date and its only metal and commodities go to the highest bidder, if anyone wants it, make a bid and pay the price.

I recently returned from an NCL cruise, and very nice it was too, the cruise market is flooded with tonnage/beds and I fail to see why NCL/Star should spend hundreds of millions trying to bring an old ship up to todays strict standards when its unlikely to pay its investment back. As for the big U it wasn't in exactly the best condition when they took it over, I cant remember anyone getting overheated about Cantor.

Nostalgia is great to look back at not live in.

lurline
10th February 2008, 18:58
every one have a love or hobby!
and i think it is ok when you like the new ships,but the point is, this what now is going ,is HISTORY!
when all think the same,we can close all museum,and all old building break up!
that is the point! HISTORY SAFE!

Paul UK
11th February 2008, 15:25
Hi D Sutton

I agree that the united states was and is in poor condition but it is the lies and the nature of the transaction by NCL that upsets people, such as saying the Blue Lady was going to Dubai for refit when she went straight to the beach, also they only purchased SS United STates and the Indy with a promise to refit, just so they could get a US flag operation going in Hawaii.

It just seems all underhand and the question I ask is would the SSUS and the Indy have been sold if they knew what was going to happen.

After all business is business and if people dont like what NCL are doing then they can vote with their feet,



Its old, out of date and its only metal and commodities go to the highest bidder, if anyone wants it, make a bid and pay the price.

I recently returned from an NCL cruise, and very nice it was too, the cruise market is flooded with tonnage/beds and I fail to see why NCL/Star should spend hundreds of millions trying to bring an old ship up to todays strict standards when its unlikely to pay its investment back. As for the big U it wasn't in exactly the best condition when they took it over, I cant remember anyone getting overheated about Cantor.

Nostalgia is great to look back at not live in.

Jeff Taylor
11th February 2008, 17:45
The question really isn't whether Indy, Norway, or US should be allowed to be scrapped as obsolete, which they all are/were sad as that may be. The issue is that the United States, for better or for worse, has an anachronism called the Jones Act which prevents foreign flag ships (pretty much all there are anymore) from trading between US ports without a stop in a foreign port. When I cruised from LA to Hawaii on the QM2 we had a phoney "service stop" in Ensenada to cover the legalities. NCL America traded a promise to rebuild US and Indy as US Flag ships to get themselves approved as a US cruise line to avoid the Jones Act, and then they proceeded to raise their middle digit to us and do precisely what they wanted with no repurcussions. That's my gripe. If the Indy was suitable for further trading in 2000 and isn't now, only one firm can be to blame--NCL. And if Colin Veitch now tries to claim that the US is too far gone when as recently as a year ago their PR people claimed it was their plan to rebuild her, well that's just so much B.S. from his Chinese overlords and Apollo Group. Putting aside how pleasant their new tonnage may or may not be, they are just simply not responsible corporate citizens and should be called to task on it.

D Sutton
11th February 2008, 18:37
I appreciate what you are saying Paul and Jeff, sadly it is the nature of modern politics that you have to promise things that you maybe cant deliver on.
I just get the feeling that the Indie would probably have been heading to the beaches anyway after the last owners went bust, anyone ever thought that NCL may of had both ships forced onto them, it just doesn't make business sense to spend the millions and millions required on what was a fledgling business, there are lots of stories going round the web that NCL do not actually own the US and its just held on a "note". Fact is that it has been out of service for 30+ years and no one has had a cash backed plan to do anything with her, I feel sure that if someone had the right money they could be the proud owner.
I might just rummage through the cushions on the sofa see how much cash turns up.

Jeff Taylor
11th February 2008, 19:15
Regarding US, you may be right because she's already been abated in Turkey. To my knowledge she could be hauled off tomorrow and legally broken anywhere with no repurcussions other than noise from us ship fanatics. Numerous parties attempted to purchase Norway even after she was beached, and from what I have heard reasonable offers were rebuffed because it became a matter of life or death for the Alang shipbreakers to push the point and break her. Indy, I believe, falls into the category of Norway where she has not been abated, and therefor there is an incentive to "sneak" her through before someone requires NCL's dummy purchaser to spend millions to abate her legally prior to breaking, eating up any profit from her sale. Despite the apparently favorable outcome for Rotterdam and QE2, we can't nor should we probably save them all. US does seem like one worth saving, but with her entire interior gutted is there any probability of that happening? Most likely not, and if you did save her she would not be the historic and nostalgic ship her admirers remember.

D Sutton
11th February 2008, 20:18
I agree Jeff that the US is worth saving for looks alone, but sadly in these bean counting days, she would have to work very hard in whatever capacity she ended up as, to pay back the massive investment required, sleek lines do not give much room for the standard of cabin that todays "customer" (you're not really a passenger anymore) demands.

I think that when you appreciate ships for their history/design/nostalgia (whatever floats your boat) as I'm sure most on here do, we tend to lose sight of the bottom line, but the accountants don't.
I feel sure that if there was custom for the type of experience that the US/indie/Norway could provide, then someone like Micky Ariston would flex his wallet to grab that part of the market.

Just imagine the US with a nice clean plastic/fake wood interior, lots of balcony cabins in the extra 5 decks added, with its climbing wall and big screen tv over the pool deck, chugging along at 10 knots on its newly installed engines for extra fuel economy.............................no thanks, I'd rather see it as razor blades.

Jeff Taylor
28th April 2008, 16:33
In case anyone missed the news, Independence has been beached at Alang, India. I'm sure there will be some additional court wrangling about the toxins onboard, but if there was ever any question her fate is now sealed.

PhilColebrook
29th April 2008, 18:50
Well, she outlived the France. Just. What a 10 years it has been for scrapping the old girls.

Richard Glueck
3rd May 2008, 02:16
I have seen no confirmation of this. I did read that she was [I]expected[I] to be beached at Alang, not that she was there. I need a photo for the confirmation.

Paul UK
3rd May 2008, 09:48
Hi Richard, Maritime Matters confirms that she is on the beach but as with you I await a picture.

Paul

D Sutton
7th May 2008, 19:18
Hi Richard, Maritime Matters confirms that she is on the beach but as with you I await a picture.

Paul

I used to visit that site quite often, but sadly it seems to have become a vitriolic campaign against NCL/Star, people forget its a business not a hobby.

sfgray
8th May 2008, 11:48
They had the premiere last Saturday on board the Queen Mary. It's called SS United States: Lady in Waiting. Quite a nice video (in HD) with a lot of old, as well as new, footage and interviews. They talked to people from NCL who said there were plans afoot to bring her back into service, but I wasn't really convinced. The video was made for PBS (US public broadcasting) and the non-HD version has been uplinked to stations, but there are no firm air dates in most markets, I've been told. The HD version will be uplinked later this month. Anyway, information is available at http://www.bigshipfilms.com/bsf_final/.

Scott in Long Beach.

D Sutton
7th June 2008, 20:58
I have just read the she is in Dubai looking for a new owner, whether it is correct is another matter, if it is, does rather put paid to the "she's on the beach" rumour.

navyblueguy
15th June 2008, 18:52
Is the 'United States' still around? I was once employed by Chandris and often on board the Australis which was ,as I'm sure you all know, the 'America'.

Paul UK
16th June 2008, 08:20
I thought she was still in the US

Paul

Jeff Taylor
16th June 2008, 14:27
The US is currently docked in Philadelphia.

lurline
20th June 2008, 11:41
i dont understand,why no one have information over the place from the indi????????
we have the year 2008!!!!!!!!!
what is the big secret ???????????
it is to high for me!

Jeff Taylor
20th June 2008, 17:41
The only thing I've heard is that she is at anchor off Dubai while various uses are evaluated or sought.

Kolby
27th June 2008, 06:33
I certianly hope a buyer can be found. If one is found I hope they retain her good looks and not make her end up like when the Kungsholm was converted to the Sea Princess. She would have looked so much better with her forward funnel still there. I also hope that she will not go to some cruise line that has no respect for classic ships and just lets them either be run down or completely gut the ship and rid her of all her American glory.

Thanks,
Kolby Hurt

Jeff Taylor
27th June 2008, 14:18
With SOLAS 2010 so close, not to mention her steam plant, it's highly unlikely anyone will want to use her for cruising. Most likely, well Alang is probably most likely, is some kind of restaurant/hotel venture.

Kolby
8th August 2008, 05:53
Id be okay with that! Its just seems that the only ships we save in the US are battleships and not passenger liners. We didnt build too much of them or built them often, but when we did, they sure were something special! Also, the famous Mississippi River Steamboat the Delta Queen is also in the spotlight. Hopefully, because of her immense fan club, she will be saved and turned into something useful (better than Long Beach did with the Queen Mary!)

lurline
1st September 2008, 20:16
have anyone news ??????????