Help!!!!!!!!

Philthechill
31st October 2007, 17:20
Brocks had a tame chemist, I believe, buried in the bowels of "The Kremlin", who worked-out what commercial chemicals could be used to maintain boiler-water in optimum condition as opposed to going down the (expensive) ICI Nalfloc route.
I was being all nostalgic t'other day and telling my #2 daughter, who is a bit of a whizz on things chemical, about the various chemicals we used to put in the boilers and the tests we did on boiler-water samples.
Chemicals we put in were, as far as I recollect, TSP (Trisodium phosphate) dichromate and caustic soda on the LP (250 p.s.i.) scotch boilers and similar chemicals, plus sodium sulphite as an oxygen-scavenger, in the medium-pressure (500 p.s.i.) water-tube boilers. The same chems. again, in the high-pressure (900 p.s.i.) boilers but constant hydrazine injection, as the oxygen-scaveneger, instead of slug-dosing sodium-sulphite.
I then tried to recall the testing-procedure but, having got as far as adding phenolphthalein to see that the sample was alkaline and then titrating with nitric-acid I reached a dead-end in my memory-banks!!!
I know we had to check for TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) and also total hardness (this was done with an optical comparitor wasn't it where you added "something-yellow" to the boiler-sample and then compared it with the discs in the comparitor until you got the same colour as your sample)
Can anyone take the testing-procedure further for me please and, also, could you let me know how we worked-out how much/little chemical needed to be added to maintain the water in good safe condition.
Ta ever so many! Salaams Phil(Hippy)

Dave437
31st October 2007, 17:26
Phil, as a mere deckie, all I remember is that the water had to be passed by the Master!
Dave

Philthechill
31st October 2007, 23:00
Phil, as a mere deckie, all I remember is that the water had to be passed by the Master!
Dave Cheers Dave! At least I've got SOME response, even if it ain't quite what I had in mind!!!!! Salaams! Phil(Hippy)

Derek Roger
31st October 2007, 23:51
Phil :
I should know all of this as I did as you did do all the boiler water testing on the Maipura and other steam ships I sailed on . Regarding the doseages of the chemicals I seem to recollect it was more by trial and error than anything else . If readings were too low ; chuck a couple pf pounds of Chemical X and retest ! The 2nd Engineer would make the decision and we would treat accordingly ,,, then after an hour or so retest and make some new treatments to compensate the results . It was a most effective system as the engineers after knew instincivley what to do .

Regarding the Liverpool office having a chemist ; that is very true ! On the diesel ships we had major problems with Vanadium deposits on the exhaust valve seats and turbo charger turbine blades ( Mainly on the medium speed Pielstick Engines ) Allan Atack who was chief on Mahsud at the time eventually solved the problem by adding a fuel additive called FOTW made by "Drew Chemicals " It was very expensive !!
Liverpool had the chemical analysed and found it to be Crysilic Acid . They then shipped drums of the pure acid to the ships to be mixed with the fuel . It was difficult to handle and did not really do the job !
But it did have some effect ! better than nothing !
" Drew Chemicals " were in my opinion were " Ahead of their times "
Allan had found FOTW initially for cleaning boiler burner tips ; after removing a dirty "tip " instead of dismantelling it and physically cleaning it which took time and caused wear on the parts it was found that by putting the " tip " in a solution of FOTW for about 4 hours the " Tip " was good for another watch or 2 .
Regards Derek

Wonder what the Chemists on the site think ????

Philthechill
1st November 2007, 07:17
Phil :
I should know all of this as I did as you did do all the boiler water testing on the Maipura and other steam ships I sailed on . Regarding the doseages of the chemicals I seem to recollect it was more by trial and error than anything else . If readings were too low ; chuck a couple pf pounds of Chemical X and retest ! The 2nd Engineer would make the decision and we would treat accordingly ,,, then after an hour or so retest and make some new treatments to compensate the results . It was a most effective system as the engineers after knew instincivley what to do .

Regarding the Liverpool office having a chemist ; that is very true ! On the diesel ships we had major problems with Vanadium deposits on the exhaust valve seats and turbo charger turbine blades ( Mainly on the medium speed Pielstick Engines ) Allan Atack who was chief on Mahsud at the time eventually solved the problem by adding a fuel additive called FOTW made by "Drew Chemicals " It was very expensive !!
Liverpool had the chemical analysed and found it to be Crysilic Acid . They then shipped drums of the pure acid to the ships to be mixed with the fuel . It was difficult to handle and did not really do the job !
But it did have some effect ! better than nothing !
" Drew Chemicals " were in my opinion were " Ahead of their times "
Allan had found FOTW initially for cleaning boiler burner tips ; after removing a dirty "tip " instead of dismantelling it and physically cleaning it which took time and caused wear on the parts it was found that by putting the " tip " in a solution of FOTW for about 4 hours the " Tip " was good for another watch or 2 .
Regards Derek

Wonder what the Chemists on the site think ????
Derek! As soon as I saw your name appear in response to my "HELP!" I knew salvation was at hand and, reading your reply expected to see, chapter and verse, a full list of chemicals used for dosing and a complete resume of the testing procedure but, much to my great dismay, SFA on the subject!!!! Merde! Merde! et Troisiemme Merde! (as the French might say!!). We ex-steam blokes appear to be in short supply here, on SN, so my plea (fir HILF! as the Germans might say!!) may go unanswered! Quelle calamite!!! (as the French would undoubtedly say!!!) Au 'voir! (French again!!!), Auf weidersehn (German!!!) and Burra salaams (Hindi!!!!!) However I must say I found your disclosure about the problems with vanadium deposits, and their subsequent removal, on valves and blower turbine blades very interesting!! Distraught Phil(Hippy)

BlythSpirit
1st November 2007, 09:52
A swift google of "Boiler Water Testing" should get you all you need.

offcumdum sanddancer
1st November 2007, 12:53
Phil,
Did you not use Para-dimethyl-amino-benzaldehyde to check the oxygen content of water tube boilers? I once tried to order some from Perth, Western Australia and the response from the radio fellow ashore was to the effect that I was taking the p*ss! But that's Australians for you. ;-)
Keith

Philthechill
1st November 2007, 15:48
A swift google of "Boiler Water Testing" should get you all you need.
Ta Q BlythSpirit! I've given "Boiler Water Testing", on Google, a coat of looking at and it does, indeed, have quite a lot of 'gen' re. testing etc.
Unfortunately it doesn't have the different chemicals, listed, which the "Frankenstein-type" in the bowels of "The Kremlin" (aka Cunard Building) decided was sufficient (and cheaper) than the likes of "Nalfloc".
However my thanks for pointing me in THAT direction!!! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Philthechill
1st November 2007, 15:57
Phil,
Did you not use Para-dimethyl-amino-benzaldehyde to check the oxygen content of water tube boilers? I once tried to order some from Perth, Western Australia and the response from the radio fellow ashore was to the effect that I was taking the p*ss! But that's Australians for you. ;-)
Keith
Eh-up Keith! Nice one! I'm sure you are right on the Para-dimethyl-etc. reagent for testing but was it for hydrazine or Oxygen? Any trace of Oxygen in "Atlantic Causeway/Conveyor" 900 p.s.i. boilers would have been curtains as corrosion under such pressures and temperatures was exponential (whatever that means!!!!) so the continous injection of Hydrazine was an absolute must. Keep dredging the old grey matter Keith! Salaams (slightly happier)(Hippy) Phil

Philthechill
2nd November 2007, 23:16
You know what they say about Yorkshiremen being "strong in t'arm and thick in t'ead"? Well I'm living (sort of!), walking (sort of!), proof of this saying!!!!
I've just found all the answers to my "HELP!!!" thread!!!
"Where?" you may (or may not) all be asking!!!
From page 771, Question 94, through to page 784 (after Question 100) in my much-abused copy of MacGibbons!!!!
Everything I wanted to know, from the chemicals used for water treatment, through to the test-procedures, lurking, under my metaphorical nose, in my bookcase!!!
So thanks, one and all, for all the input to my plea!!!!
I can now bore my daughter fartless as I tell her about the incredible excitement (?) we experienced on seeing the pink colour of the alkaline boiler-water turn clear as we titrated it with acid z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z!
Salaams! Phil(Hippy)

Derek Roger
3rd November 2007, 02:09
Phil ;
The main ingredient as I recollect was Tri Sodium Phosphate . Also some stuff which when mixed was orange in color ( cant remember the name but it was an oxygen inhibiter ( spelling )
First trip to sea ( deep sea ) on Maipura the 2nd showed me the proceedure for dosing each boiler ; mix the chemicals . open the drain cock and let any liquids drain ; close the drain cock ; open the fill cock , pour in the mixed chemicals ; close the filling cock ; open the valve on the boiler being dosed ; open the mixing tank outlet ( Which was a pressure vessel ) Then open the boiler feed inlet valve and wait for about 3 minutes until the contents had been purged to the boiler .

My first effort was not quite as described as I failed to close the filling valve which if you remember had a big funnel to allow the chemicals to be poured in .
Of course when I opened the boiler feed to the system all the chemicals blew out into the engine room causing a big mess of orange liquid over the lower flat ( which had been recently painted !!! )

I reported to the Third Eng what had happened ( He of course knew ! by the mess )

He said " What are you going to do now " Bollicks " ( a name he had given me )
" Go up and tell the 2nd I said " Good Idea he said "
I reported the " disaster " to the second who coolly replied " Ok call the Serang and get them to clean up ; and finish treating all the boilers , I dont think you will get it wrong again !! " He was right .

Brocks Engineers I found were very understanding and helpfull ; they made you learn .

I will call Alan Atack who I am sure will remember what the orange stuff was and get back to you .

Side note ;; when we went to Jedda we would fill the Phenothalile bottles with Gin mixed with some bitters and put them in the "Lab " Customs never messed with the boiler chemicals > Always had a good supply of gin in Saudi !!!!

Regrds Derek

Philthechill
3rd November 2007, 08:02
Phil ;
The main ingredient as I recollect was Tri Sodium Phosphate . Also some stuff which when mixed was orange in color ( cant remember the name but it was an oxygen inhibiter ( spelling )
First trip to sea ( deep sea ) on Maipura the 2nd showed me the proceedure for dosing each boiler ; mix the chemicals . open the drain cock and let any liquids drain ; close the drain cock ; open the fill cock , pour in the mixed chemicals ; close the filling cock ; open the valve on the boiler being dosed ; open the mixing tank outlet ( Which was a pressure vessel ) Then open the boiler feed inlet valve and wait for about 3 minutes until the contents had been purged to the boiler .

My first effort was not quite as described as I failed to close the filling valve which if you remember had a big funnel to allow the chemicals to be poured in .
Of course when I opened the boiler feed to the system all the chemicals blew out into the engine room causing a big mess of orange liquid over the lower flat ( which had been recently painted !!! )

I reported to the Third Eng what had happened ( He of course knew ! by the mess )

He said " What are you going to do now " Bollicks " ( a name he had given me )
" Go up and tell the 2nd I said " Good Idea he said "
I reported the " disaster " to the second who coolly replied " Ok call the Serang and get them to clean up ; and finish treating all the boilers , I dont think you will get it wrong again !! " He was right .

Brocks Engineers I found were very understanding and helpfull ; they made you learn .

I will call Alan Atack who I am sure will remember what the orange stuff was and get back to you .

Side note ;; when we went to Jedda we would fill the Phenothalile bottles with Gin mixed with some bitters and put them in the "Lab " Customs never messed with the boiler chemicals > Always had a good supply of gin in Saudi !!!!

Regrds Derek Derek! Salaams! Your description of the dosing-station is spot-on! The yellow chemical, you mention, was dichromate and was used, as an oxygen scavenger because dichromate is an oxidizing agent (he writes smugly having just been boning-up on dichromate from Wikepedia!). What I've also found-out, whilst reading about dichromate, is that it is carcinogenic and needs handling very carefully!!!!! I don't remember being told THAT whilst legging it all over the place--------do you??? Anyway, Derek, thanks very much for your input, let's see if Alan recalls the amounts of TSP/caustic-soda/dichromate etc. we used to put in the boilers! Incidentally, with reference to phenophthalein. I hope you gave the bottles, which had contained the phenol., (which you used for your gin in Jeddah), a good rinse out because it CAN give you the most extreme case of "the squits"? So, if you've ever wondered why you were always running for the khazi, after partaking of a goodly slug of G&T in (and only in!) Jeddah you now know the reason!!! Salaams! Totally-boring-anorak-wearing Phil(Hippy)

Jim S
5th November 2007, 20:51
Phil,
From some notes that I had written at some time in the distant past there is the following:-
When treating a freshly filled boiler it is essential that the first 25 ppm of Caustic Alkalinity be obtained by the use of Trisodium Phosphate and that Caustic Soda is then used to increase this to the requisite 120 ppm.
Example;- A boiler requires 10 tons of water to fill to W.L. then 1.5 lb of Caustic Soda and 5 lb of T.S.P will givw approximately 120 ppm Caustic Alkalinity and 180 ppm of Total Alkalinity.
Example;- On a boiler of similar capacity and assuming the water has a Caustic Alkalinity of 85 ppm and a Total Alkalinity of 129 ppm then the addition of 4 ozs of Caustic Soda will add approx. 14.3 ppm of Caustic and 14.3 ppm of Total Alkalinity.
The addition of 2.5 lb of T.S.P will add approx 14.3 ppm of Caustic and 50 ppm of Total Alkalinity.
Total Dissolved Solids as low as possible but not to exceed 2000 ppm for boilers pressures under 500 psig and 1000 ppm for boiler pressures above 500 psig.

TDS in ppm = Caustic Alk. + 2(Total Alk - Caustic Alk) + Chlorine x 2 + Sulphite added to water.
While boiler water testing and treatment was of paramount importance it sure made the head nip.
At least the chemical treatment as devised by your "tame chemist" while not easy to understand was I believe a safer option than some of the all singing and dancing commercial compounds such as ICI Alfloc - I have heard of stories where over enthusiastic dosing over long periods of such products has caused such a builds up of (undisolved) solids that bottom manhole doors were difficult to put in.
Derek Roger commented on Drew Chemicals - I agree with him that they did produce excellent products. Their Drew Ameroid boiler water treatment chemicals were very good if expensive and their nature minimised total dissolved solids particularly when using hydrazine as oxygen scavenger. An adverse nature of hydrazine was that it quickly turned yellow the white paint in engine room.
I recall a serious accident that took place on a Fyffes ship where a J/E took a swig of what he thought was chilled water from a plastic container in the brine room - it was hydrazine. He was extremely lucky to survive.

Derek Roger
6th November 2007, 00:41
Regarding engine room paint tending to turn yellow or some such hue I found the answer from a Cunard 3rd engineer . I tried it and it worked very well .
As usual the paintwork had to be washed down very well with TSP before painting . The Key was to use White Paint with a slight "Blue " hue .

This stood up very well and did not discolor at all . A quick wipe down before hitting the UK coast and the Supers thought we had just repainted the engine room . Made a huge difference to the lighting of the engine room too .
Regards Derek

Philthechill
6th November 2007, 07:07
Phil,
From some notes that I had written at some time in the distant past there is the following:-
When treating a freshly filled boiler it is essential that the first 25 ppm of Caustic Alkalinity be obtained by the use of Trisodium Phosphate and that Caustic Soda is then used to increase this to the requisite 120 ppm.
Example;- A boiler requires 10 tons of water to fill to W.L. then 1.5 lb of Caustic Soda and 5 lb of T.S.P will givw approximately 120 ppm Caustic Alkalinity and 180 ppm of Total Alkalinity.
Example;- On a boiler of similar capacity and assuming the water has a Caustic Alkalinity of 85 ppm and a Total Alkalinity of 129 ppm then the addition of 4 ozs of Caustic Soda will add approx. 14.3 ppm of Caustic and 14.3 ppm of Total Alkalinity.
The addition of 2.5 lb of T.S.P will add approx 14.3 ppm of Caustic and 50 ppm of Total Alkalinity.
Total Dissolved Solids as low as possible but not to exceed 2000 ppm for boilers pressures under 500 psig and 1000 ppm for boiler pressures above 500 psig.

TDS in ppm = Caustic Alk. + 2(Total Alk - Caustic Alk) + Chlorine x 2 + Sulphite added to water.
While boiler water testing and treatment was of paramount importance it sure made the head nip.
At least the chemical treatment as devised by your "tame chemist" while not easy to understand was I believe a safer option than some of the all singing and dancing commercial compounds such as ICI Alfloc - I have heard of stories where over enthusiastic dosing over long periods of such products has caused such a builds up of (undisolved) solids that bottom manhole doors were difficult to put in.
Derek Roger commented on Drew Chemicals - I agree with him that they did produce excellent products. Their Drew Ameroid boiler water treatment chemicals were very good if expensive and their nature minimised total dissolved solids particularly when using hydrazine as oxygen scavenger. An adverse nature of hydrazine was that it quickly turned yellow the white paint in engine room.
I recall a serious accident that took place on a Fyffes ship where a J/E took a swig of what he thought was chilled water from a plastic container in the brine room - it was hydrazine. He was extremely lucky to survive. Jim! Nice one! Just about all I was wanting to know----------thankyou very much! You're so right about that lad who took a swig of hydrazine! By all things normal he should NOT have survived!! However the words "Normal" and "Jolly Jack" cannot exist in the same sentence as they are a complete contradiction in terms!!! It was, without a doubt, that special God detailed to look after all us waifs and strays who used to go to sea saved his life!!! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Tony Sprigings
12th November 2007, 08:28
Your 'tame' Chemist was a chap called Harold Critchley.
Cheers,
Tony

Philthechill
12th November 2007, 16:07
Your 'tame' Chemist was a chap called Harold Critchley.
Cheers,
Tony I never did know his name, Tony, so thanks for letting us all know! He was obviously a very clever bloke and must have saved Brock's many thousands of pounds in utilising 'ordinary' chemicals rather than going down the ICI 'Alfloc' (later 'Nalfloc') route. I remember Lloyds surveyors always commented on the good condition the boilers were in when they were opened-up for survey. Even that crusty old bugger Mr. Borkett (?) in Colombo couldn't find anything to complain about, which had to be virtually akin to "The Second Coming" Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

BlythSpirit
12th November 2007, 17:20
"Phenolphthalein" -I'll never forget how to spell the stuff - we used to have beer bets on the spelling when I was at sea, the more you won the less likely you were to get it right on the next round!!

Tony Sprigings
12th November 2007, 17:35
Harold was the most unassuming man I ever met but a veritable mine of information, a very nice chap.
Cheers,
Tony