Doxford Engines 3-legged

jolee
4th November 2007, 01:53
I am researching details of 3-cylinder Doxford Engines built prior to turboblowers becoming standard about 1940.
A few main features I've found out so far but need verification: 1. They are famous for economy (helped win the battle of the Atlantic). 2. The throw of the crank for the Upper Cylinder was half the throw for the Lower Cylinder. 3. Some may have had open crankcases. 4. The scavenge pump was driven by a pair of parallel levers connected to the upper No 2 cylinder con rods. 5. Their Engine Frames were cast rather than fabricated.
I've been trawling the www for details so I can build a representative model. There must have been hundreds of these 3-legged Doxfords built but now its hard to find enough drawings to show how they were made and operated.
I'd be very appreciative if any reader could throw some light on this not-too-distant piece of Marine Engineering history.
best regards,
Jolee

demodocus
4th November 2007, 01:28
There was a 3 cylinder Doxford on at least 1 of the following China Nav. ships ..... Shansi, Soochow, Szechuan, Sinkiang all built UK 1945/46

cboots
4th November 2007, 03:41
I am no engineer but I am pretty certain that the smaller Prince Line ships had three cylinder Doxfords, the bigger ones had four. Examples would have been the Northumbrain Prince and the Cyprian Prince. Built late forties early fifties, had steam auxiliaries too.
CBoots

andysk
4th November 2007, 08:00
I'm not an engineer, so I may be barking up the wrong tree, but didn't the Science Museum in London have a Doxford engine 9n display once upon a time ?

Cheers
Andy

Mac
4th November 2007, 08:31
As Demodocus has written at least one of the immediate post war S class ships built for China Navigation was a three legged Doxford. This was the Soochow built by A & J Inglis Ltd Glasgow in 1947 using an engine recovered from a vessel sunk in the Mersey. This was the story accepted by all onboard in the late fifties, including myself. The other three ships were four cyl. Doxfords.

randcmackenzie
4th November 2007, 15:19
The Denholm ore carriers of the late fifties, early sixties all had 3 cylinder Doxfords.
Crinan, Craigallian,Naess Trader,Clarkavon, Clarkeden, Wellpark.

ARRANMAN35
4th November 2007, 15:33
Jolee,
On Google just type in 3 Cyl Doxford and surf the sites,
Plenty of information to answer most of your questions

Doxford-Engine.com/Family Origins.htm

www.Doxford-Engine.com/brief_engine_history.htm

Happy surfing.

Archie.

jolee
8th November 2007, 08:14
Thanks to Archie and everyone else who has replied.

Dave Edge
8th November 2007, 08:48
The "Nancy Dee", ex "Hughli", built in 1943, was powered by a 3-legged Doxford and when I sailed on her in 1969 ran so well that if the rest of the ship was equally good she would still be trading. It ran like a sewing machine, even at 26 years old.

winston norton
21st November 2007, 02:35
I sailed on the mv Tamele (elder dempester)
Twin thre cylinder side scavenge doxford.
War time engine room. One SW pump backup from ballast pump.
Little to look after so all well kept.

Rennie Cameron
24th November 2007, 07:44
I sailed, 1966 - 69 on the Black Prince built circa 1956. Three cylinder as did many of the Medi boats fro Prince Line as noted above. Starting handles at the end. I think it was Hawthorn Leslie built but cant quite recall. I guess they maybe stopped building around 1956 but not sure. Usual Doxford features, water cooled pistons, spherical bearings. For the record two boilers, steam auxiliaries, not a diesel aux in sight! Full sea revs was 115rpm I recall but certainly fuel pressure on starting was 600psi...now what else? Sorry but no open crankcase. Great engines and I am a B&W man!

Rennie Cameron
24th November 2007, 07:45
Oops...fuel pressure was 6000psi...sorry bridge failed to start!

albert.s.i
24th November 2007, 11:08
hi jolee, iwas on the british drummer 1951she was a 3 cylinder doxford oppoesed piston engine as her sister ship british bugler but i pumpman so not much help to you sorry. albert.s.i

Philip Jones
24th November 2007, 11:48
I can scan G.A. drawings of a three cylinder engine and a section through the scavenge pump if you wish.

averheijden
28th March 2008, 17:16
I am researching details of 3-cylinder Doxford Engines built prior to turboblowers becoming standard about 1940.
A few main features I've found out so far but need verification: 1. They are famous for economy (helped win the battle of the Atlantic). 2. The throw of the crank for the Upper Cylinder was half the throw for the Lower Cylinder. 3. Some may have had open crankcases. 4. The scavenge pump was driven by a pair of parallel levers connected to the upper No 2 cylinder con rods. 5. Their Engine Frames were cast rather than fabricated.
I've been trawling the www for details so I can build a representative model. There must have been hundreds of these 3-legged Doxfords built but now its hard to find enough drawings to show how they were made and operated.
I'd be very appreciative if any reader could throw some light on this not-too-distant piece of Marine Engineering history.
best regards,
Jolee

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/averheijden/OldTimer.jpg

DOXFORD: 520LB3 for the first "ECONOMY SHIP'S

Note:
* Upper Piston Cooling with outlet "dipper pipe"
* On the left: The 3 Fuel Oil Pumps with accumulator bottle on top.
* Sight Glasses on the Crankcase doors.

Regards
Alfons

Peter Fielding
28th March 2008, 17:56
I sailed on B.I.'s "Purnea" in 1970. She had a 3-legged Doxford, two Scotch boilers, all steam auxiliaries, main-engine driven lub. oil and cooling-water pumps. Ran like a dream when you got her settled down, but being single-handed watches you needed the 1-hour notice for arrival standby to get the steam driven pumps warmed through. I'm sorry I can't give you a lot more of the kind of detail you're looking for, but after almost 40 years, the old memory is not too reliable. But I'm sure a bit of judicious Googling will fill in some gaps.

averheijden
29th March 2008, 20:23
I am researching details of 3-cylinder Doxford Engines built prior to turboblowers becoming standard about 1940.
A few main features I've found out so far but need verification: 1. They are famous for economy (helped win the battle of the Atlantic). 2. The throw of the crank for the Upper Cylinder was half the throw for the Lower Cylinder. 3. Some may have had open crankcases. 4. The scavenge pump was driven by a pair of parallel levers connected to the upper No 2 cylinder con rods. 5. Their Engine Frames were cast rather than fabricated.
I've been trawling the www for details so I can build a representative model. There must have been hundreds of these 3-legged Doxfords built but now its hard to find enough drawings to show how they were made and operated.
I'd be very appreciative if any reader could throw some light on this not-too-distant piece of Marine Engineering history.
best regards,
Jolee

3 Cylinder DOXFORD with open Crank Case

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/averheijden/EERSTE3CILINDERDOXFORD.jpg

Alfons

john hardy
19th September 2011, 14:02
i was jnr engineer on mv ravensworth in 1971, from memory she had a 3 legger doxford with circular scavenge, built 1960. converted to pipelayer flexservice 1, still working AFAIK

cubpilot
19th September 2011, 17:45
The China Nav vessel MV Chefoo (sp) which was on the Papua New Guinea service out of Sydney about 1970 and renamed Island Chief was 3 cyl Doxford. She was built in Hong Kong at the company shipyard and the engine was also built at Taikoo yard. The neatest, trouble free Doxford that I sailed on. 6 months on her and not one stoppage

chadburn
20th September 2011, 14:38
I have served on a Post War 3 cy unit which was in the Egton, however, the pre War 3cy was (barring for the Scott-Still) one of the most highly rated Marine Engine's available at a mechanical efficiency at about 82% other's being around 73%

jim garnett
22nd September 2011, 04:52
The La Pampa (buries Markes) was also a 3 cylinder doxford 1950-55.I only stood by her and was resting from a 6cylinder job.Only half the trouble I thought.
Jim Garnett

TOM ALEXANDER
22nd September 2011, 08:10
I was deck apprentice on the Furness Withy mv Sagamore in 1959. She had a 4 cyl. Doxford. From the deck point of view it was matter of faith when docking with a full load of ore that the engine room could actually start it in reverse when we wanted to stop. It had after all a direct drive, and if I remember rightly we ran it at 104 rpm most of the time.

Chillytoes
28th September 2011, 11:55
How about this 3-legger? And everything goes around as it should!

http://oi52.tinypic.com/2v0muyd.jpg

wterdbeard
28th September 2011, 20:45
Thr mechano version probably has more nuts and bolts than the real thing, but I prefer the model tool kit especially if I have to fetch the spanners

stores
28th September 2011, 21:57
How about this 3-legger? And everything goes around as it should!

http://oi52.tinypic.com/2v0muyd.jpg

THAT IS FANTASTIC.

hamishb
5th October 2011, 17:37
I am researching details of 3-cylinder Doxford Engines built prior to turboblowers becoming standard about 1940.
A few main features I've found out so far but need verification: 1. They are famous for economy (helped win the battle of the Atlantic). 2. The throw of the crank for the Upper Cylinder was half the throw for the Lower Cylinder. 3. Some may have had open crankcases. 4. The scavenge pump was driven by a pair of parallel levers connected to the upper No 2 cylinder con rods. 5. Their Engine Frames were cast rather than fabricated.
I've been trawling the www for details so I can build a representative model. There must have been hundreds of these 3-legged Doxfords built but now its hard to find enough drawings to show how they were made and operated.
I'd be very appreciative if any reader could throw some light on this not-too-distant piece of Marine Engineering history.
best regards,
Jolee
Hi Jolee
If you send me a personal message with your address I will mail a CD with a set of drawings for a 1930/40s Doxford 50/1 scale 60LB3
engine.
The original bore was 600m/m.
To get an idea of the finished job see the avatar used by averheijden which is a photo of the engine.
Best reghards
Hamish.

averheijden
19th February 2012, 10:44
There was a 3 cylinder Doxford on at least 1 of the following China Nav. ships ..... Shansi, Soochow, Szechuan, Sinkiang all built UK 1945/46

Dear Sir,
I can not find that one of them had a 3-legged DOXFORD see the following links

SINKIANG
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=19305

SOOCHOW
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=2129

SHANSI
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=19307

Szechuen (had Sulzer Engines)
http://www.ssmaritime.com/CN-Anking-Anshun.htm

Regards
Alfons
http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters

Strachan
19th February 2012, 20:23
Then one of the sources is wrong.

I sailed on Shansi and Soochow and one of them was a 3-cyl Doxford but I can't remember which.

NoR
19th February 2012, 20:43
The China Nav vessel MV Chefoo (sp) which was on the Papua New Guinea service out of Sydney about 1970 and renamed Island Chief was 3 cyl Doxford. She was built in Hong Kong at the company shipyard and the engine was also built at Taikoo yard. The neatest, trouble free Doxford that I sailed on. 6 months on her and not one stoppage

Didn't they have a ship called the New Guinea Chief also HK built ex ??

R58484956
20th February 2012, 14:50
MV Soochow 3 cyl Doxford 20 1/2" x 81 7/8ths" built by Doxfords. Ship built by A & J Inglis Glasgow. The other 3 had 4 cylinder diesels.

averheijden
21st February 2012, 10:11
MV Soochow 3 cyl Doxford 20 1/2" x 81 7/8ths" built by Doxfords. Ship built by A & J Inglis Glasgow. The other 3 had 4 cylinder diesels.

Probably you mean this one?

But not a 3-Legged
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/averheijden/64d34eae.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/averheijden/90013e4d.jpg

Picture as “ms STRAITS STAR”
http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/photo.php?lid=1247280

So far as I know on this moment TAIKOO DOCKYARD built only this type of DOXFORD
670 LB4, 4500 BHP, at 115 rpm, not a Mushroom Type , but with 2 attached lever driven scavenging pumps

Here a model made by the TAIKOO people
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/averheijden/23e7f393.jpg

Is that correct?, if not please let me know, I am working on a list from Taikoo Doxford’s and CNC

Regards
Alfons
http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters

PS: It looks to me, that no pictures are allowed on this Topic?

Varley
21st February 2012, 10:26
I was always told that Doxford's demise was down to NO them having licensee builders. Obvious from this not completely true. Can anyone expand on this? David V

(Sorry idiotic typo!)

Mike S
21st February 2012, 10:55
I was under the impression that the classic Doxford was a victim of it's own design in that the crankshaft was unable to handle the increasing horsepower of it's rivals and they reached the design limit.
Still a wonderful engine and a famous part of maritime history.

TIM HUDSON
21st February 2012, 11:44
Ellermans "City of Bristol" (ex Sacremanto) had twin screw 3 cylinder Doxfords. The engines were installed displaced by one cylinder as their side scavenge pumps were on centre cylinder. Built by Cammell Laird 1945, 670mm bore I think. The 'wrong way' alarm was in very frequent use during manoeuvring !

ccurtis1
21st February 2012, 15:25
Didn't they have a ship called the New Guinea Chief also HK built ex ??
Yes they did. I sailed on her. Sydney/Brisbane/Port Moresby/Madang/Lae/Wewak then back to Sydney to start all over again. Great times on a good run. She was a Doxford and built if memory serves me correctly in HK. I think she was originally the Kwangsi but may be wrong

Duncan112
21st February 2012, 17:03
I was under the impression that the classic Doxford was a victim of it's own design in that the crankshaft was unable to handle the increasing horsepower of it's rivals and they reached the design limit.
Still a wonderful engine and a famous part of maritime history.

That's always been my opinion because there are only 4 ways to increase the power of a reciprocating engine:

1) Increase the cylinder diameter but this increases the distance between the main bearing centres, in the case of a Doxford this distance is already large because of the presence of the side rods and bearings. This would result in the crankshaft bending too much between the main bearings.

2) Increase the piston stroke - this would lead to an over long cylinder liner with associated casting problems, the tripartite liner as an attempt to overcome this was never really successful

3) Increase the mean effective pressure in the cylinder - this would increase the bending moment on the crankshaft - see 1 above

4) Increase the number of cylinders - this would lengthen an already long engine increasing the size of the machinery space and eating into cargo space.

Mind you, material science and technology has come on a great deal in the 30 years since the demise of the Doxford, maybe these problems could now be overcome.

One other problem was the additional survey requirements of the bearings for the side rods, 2 bottom ends and crossheads.

hamishb
21st February 2012, 22:07
I was always told that Doxford's demise was down to them having licensee builders. Obvious from this not completely true. Can anyone expand on this? David V

Hi David, if you go to doxford-engine.com you will find a fairly comprehensive history of the Doxford engine
Hamish

Varley
22nd February 2012, 00:06
Hi David, if you go to doxford-engine.com you will find a fairly comprehensive history of the Doxford engine
Hamish

Hamish, much obliged (I did, of course, mean NO licensees - brainfade) David V

averheijden
22nd February 2012, 08:41
Yes they did. I sailed on her. Sydney/Brisbane/Port Moresby/Madang/Lae/Wewak then back to Sydney to start all over again. Great times on a good run. She was a Doxford and built if memory serves me correctly in HK. I think she was originally the Kwangsi but may be wrong

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f303/averheijden/64d34eae.jpg

Yes it was the KWANGSI

Alfons

teb
23rd February 2012, 15:27
Denholm family owned "Carronpark"blt 49 & "Lylepark" blt 51 were 3legged Doxford engined.

Chillytoes
25th February 2012, 09:35
"That's always been my opinion because there are only 4 ways to increase the power of a reciprocating engine:"

Duncan
There is a fifth way, increase the revs.

averheijden
27th February 2012, 12:36
MV Soochow 3 cyl Doxford 20 1/2" x 81 7/8ths" built by Doxfords. Ship built by A & J Inglis Glasgow. The other 3 had 4 cylinder diesels.

For the original DOXFORD from the SOOCHOW see the story from George Robinson and Angus Mac Kinnon

http://forums.clydemaritime.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=18722

Alfons

crowmountain
25th March 2012, 02:41
As Demodocus has written at least one of the immediate post war S class ships built for China Navigation was a three legged Doxford. This was the Soochow built by A & J Inglis Ltd Glasgow in 1947 using an engine recovered from a vessel sunk in the Mersey. This was the story accepted by all onboard in the late fifties, including myself. The other three ships were four cyl. Doxfords.
Sailed on the Soochow in 1965 when CNCo sold it to a Singapore company.
Had cam driven LO and FW pumps and was difficult to start but easy to run. The ship was built in 1945 and the engine was a salvage job from world war 2.
We all could the "Doxford Dance"

averheijden
4th April 2012, 15:40
L.S;

http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters/tekst/DOXFORD%20ENGINES%20CHINA%20NAVIGATION%20CO%20HONG KONG.pdf

When you click on row 3 on "Shansi(3) than it shows that it is a 4 legged??

Everything a bit frustrating sometimes after so many years

Alfons

http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters

see also:
http://www.ssmaritime.com/CN-Changsha-Taiyuan.htm

ARRANMAN35
4th April 2012, 18:05
Teb advised of the Carronpark and Lylepark of Denholms, in addition
managed by them were:
Arisaig
Clarkavon
Clarkeden
Craigallian
Crinan
Naess Trader
Wellpark
All operated satisfactory and gave good service over their respective
lifes.
Served on a few of them from J/E TO 2E.

Archie

HYLTON P
5th April 2012, 11:11
I Sailed On The Cyprian Prince As A Junior Engineer Back In 1967 She Did Have A 3 Cylinder Doxford And Steam Auxillaries A More Reliable Engine Would Be Hard To Find

R58484956
5th April 2012, 12:10
Greetings Hylton P and welcome to SN. Bon voyage.

XFullFatTim
1st October 2012, 15:03
A little off topic as it relates to later engines:-
I sailed as 2nd Mate and Chief Officer on 5 ships operated by Ellerman City Liners from 1981 though to 1988 that had the last Doxford 3 legged engines built. They were supplied to the City of Plymouth Class 300TEU "paragraph" ships built at A&P Addpledore in devon - a 6th Engine was also built but never fitted to a ship and the last I heard had been donated by Ellermans to the Glasgow Museum of Transport. The first engine was supposed to run on a homogenised coal dust/ oil slurry but it didn't work............... the engines were way too powerful for the ships giving a Dead Slow speed of 7.5knots and really should have been mated to a contollable pitch prop. They weren't terribly reliable but once started they ran beautifully smoothly. The unreliablity was on the starting and stopping but this was resolved with some major redesigning of the liners and piston crowns of the City of Oxford that transformed the engine's manoeuvrability. Part of the starting problem was a "dead band" detector that soemtime didn't detect that all 3 units were "in line" and the start assister didn't engage to give the engine a half a turn by hydraulic ram............. IIRC the City of Plymouth had the start assister detect a dead band start situation while the engine was turning at 220rpm, which didn't do it or the rest of the engineroom a lot of good. I left Ellerman's in 1988 to join P&O Containers and remember seeing the City of Oxford trading in the Malacca Straits in 1992/3 as the Hyundai Malacca. Prince Line also had two vessel fitted with the same engine - Crown Prince and Royal Prince I think. They were handed over to OOCL when Furness was taken over by C Y Tung Group. I am now in command of some of the Maersk Line ships at the other end of the size/ power scale.

averheijden
4th October 2012, 14:44
They weren't terribly reliable but once started they ran beautifully smoothly. The unreliability was on the starting and stopping but this was resolved with some major redesigning of the liners and piston crowns of the City of Oxford that transformed the engine's maneuverability. Part of the starting problem was a "dead band" detector that sometime didn't detect that all 3 units were "in line" and the start assister didn't engage to give the engine a half a turn by hydraulic ram............. IIRC the City of Plymouth had the start assister detect a dead band start situation while the engine was turning at 220 rpm, which didn't do it or the rest of the engine room a lot of good.

L.S.
The STARTING ASSISTER (JS3 DOXFORD ENGINES)

The S.A. consist of 2 pneumatic power cylinders (1) , on for ahead and one for astern
They are mounted vertically at the forward end of the engine and pivoted at the top so that the roller at the end of the piston rod can be engaged to a wheel (2) at the forward end of the crankshaft to turn the shaft the required amount.
Each power cylinder is brought in engagement by means of an engagement cylinder (3) acting through a lever mechanism (4)
They are disengaged at the end of the stroke and brought back to their storage positions by means of return springs (5)

These springs (5) will keep the power cylinders firmly away from the wheel (2) while the engine is running.
Special plates on the wheel prevent the ahead power cylinder from engaging in the astern grooves, and vice versa.

According the above story from "XFullFatTim" was the starting assister not ALWAYS a big success?
(Perhaps the spring 5 was broken in the above mentioned accident?)
Who can tell more about his experience with the starting assister?

Kind Regards
Alfons (http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters)

Ian J. Huckin
4th October 2012, 18:13
"That's always been my opinion because there are only 4 ways to increase the power of a reciprocating engine:"

Duncan
There is a fifth way, increase the revs.

Hmmmmm! Increasing RPM does not necessarily increase power as fuel burn time (cetane index), scavenging efficiency and gas flow rates are all going to compromise power output after passing through the "sweet spot" where max power and torque are produced.

Duncan112
4th October 2012, 18:41
I was going to let that one slide, but as well as the issues that you raise Ian as the rpm increase the propellor efficiency starts to fall due to the effects of cavitation etc, whilst these can be alleviated by the use of tandem propellors the overall efficiency of conversion of potential chemical energy in the fuel to propulsive effort will fall. For most shipowners (warships being a notable exception) the overall plant efficiency for a given service speed is a prime concern. Also increasing RPM markedly will have considerable inertial effects which can be overcome by reducing cylinder diameter and increasing cylinder numbers which quite nicely brings us back where we started.

A.D.FROST
4th October 2012, 20:02
I have served on a Post War 3 cy unit which was in the Egton, however, the pre War 3cy was (barring for the Scott-Still) one of the most highly rated Marine Engine's available at a mechanical efficiency at about 82% other's being around 73%

EGTON'38 SR(RUNSWICK/GLAISDALE Doxford "Economy")

JohnBP
15th October 2012, 23:34
How about this 3-legger? And everything goes around as it should!

http://oi52.tinypic.com/2v0muyd.jpg

wow nice, where was this

averheijden
17th October 2012, 08:49
3 -Legged Doxford's

* Wilton Fijenoord, Schiedam, Holland
(3 Legged for French Wine Tanker "BACCHUS"

* 3 Legged, Old Timer, during WWII

All 3-Legged without "Starting Assister" !!!!

Regards
Alfons (http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters)

averheijden
18th October 2012, 16:00
I sailed as 2nd Mate and Chief Officer on 5 ships operated by Ellerman City Liners from 1981 though to 1988 that had the last Doxford 3 legged engines built. They weren't terribly reliable but once started they ran beautifully smoothly. The unreliablity was on the starting and stopping but this was resolved with some major redesigning of the liners and piston crowns of the City of Oxford that transformed the engine's manoeuvrability. Part of the starting problem was a "dead band" detector that soemtime didn't detect that all 3 units were "in line" and the start assister didn't engage to give the engine a half a turn by hydraulic ram............. IIRC

L.S (XFullFatTim;624748)
I am curious to know, what means exact the major redesigning of liners and pistons crowns which transformed in better manoeuvrability?
According DOXFORD the starting assiter was only necessary 1 in 100 times starting?
This was find out on the testbed, perhaps in reality it was different?
Awaiting your answer
Kind regards
ALFONS (http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters)

Tim Gibbs
5th November 2012, 17:51
L.S (XFullFatTim;624748)
I am curious to know, what means exact the major redesigning of liners and pistons crowns which transformed in better manoeuvrability?
According DOXFORD the starting assiter was only necessary 1 in 100 times starting?
This was find out on the testbed, perhaps in reality it was different?
Awaiting your answer
Kind regards
ALFONS (http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters)
The piston and liner mods were to improve the compression, particularly when starting astern as there was a lead on the exhaust piston which made starting sometime a bit of a lottery with a bit of liner and piston ring wear!
I think the starting assister may have eventually been removed after a particularly exciting moment when it engaged on one ship when the engine was running at full speed (Applause)
I seem to recally that the frequency of "dead band" stops was much reduced when we changed the phasing of the propeller in relation to the crankshaft

Tim Gibbs
8th November 2012, 10:00
There is lots of interesting general Doxford stuff at www.doxford-engine.com
They have sent me lots of pics and meeting notes - quite poignant for me having been involved with the Js, JSs and, for my sins, the LBs. I must have been a very bad boy in my youth(Pint)

averheijden
31st December 2012, 10:08
L.S.
I never sailed with a 3-Legged, so I like to know, was that normal on a 3-Legged Doxford that you had 2 Spare Cylinder Liners on board?
That look much to me.

A HAPY NEW YEAR TO ALL THE DOXFORD LOVERS

Alfons (http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters)

Tim Gibbs
31st December 2012, 14:17
L.S.
I never sailed with a 3-Legged, so I like to know, was that normal on a 3-Legged Doxford that you had 2 Spare Cylinder Liners on board?
That look much to me.

A HAPY NEW YEAR TO ALL THE DOXFORD LOVERS

Alfons (http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters)
Certainly on the 58JS3s we only designed the ships to carry 1 spare liner but I seem to recall City of Bristol (2 x 60[?]LB3) that there were "quite a few" although I' not sure why as she ran on diesel and the wear rates were very low. However I think in her early days she had a few liners crack.
Someone was asking about the 58JS3s having the starting assister when the old LB3 didn't - I think that was 'cos the LBs had side cranks at 180 degrees to the main crank but all the turbo charged engines had the side cranks leading by about 8 degrees
B R
Tim G

eldersuk
1st January 2013, 22:54
I sailed on a four cyl Doxford which carried four spare liners, which did not inspire confidence.
Curiously, it carried only one of each top and bottom pistons.
I think that some companies used their ships as a sort of a spare gear store.

The picture in #58 does not appear to be a three legger. Looks suspiciously like a centre scavenge at top of picture.

Happy New Year

Derek

averheijden
2nd January 2013, 09:12
The picture in #58 does not appear to be a three legger. Looks suspiciously like a centre scavenge at top of picture.
Derek
Derek,
That is exactly what I thougt too, so I mailed this person for an explanation, but no answer yet
Although, this picture from the same ship (Shell Tanker mv BELA) looks like there are 3 starting air valves.
And I believe - I am not sure -, but you must know, that on a 4 cylinder there were 2 sets of 2 starting air valves?
Regards
Alfons

A.D.FROST
2nd January 2013, 10:02
I think Derek is confusing the prefabricated Top-Hat of which they are two in shot instead of the usual cast-steel T.H. and look similar to the scavange pump cowling.

eldersuk
2nd January 2013, 22:43
The way I see it, the bottom one in the pic is the usual cast aluminium bottle guide cover while the top one is a fabricated scavenge pump cover.

I must admit I am stumped by the pic of the three air start valves which indicate a three legger. Did any of them have a mushroom scav pump?
I never sailed on one.

Derek

averheijden
3rd January 2013, 09:08
L.S.
I got this answer
"Hi Alfons

Yes that is the top of the scavenge pump which was on the back of the
engine behind number 2 cylinder. The seawater, fresh cooling water and
lubricating oil pumps were directly below, all driven by a rocker arm
from #2 cylinder cross-head. When I started with Shell as a fifth
engineer, I sailed fron New Zealand to Singapore as a passenger on a
Nowegian tanker. It was fitted with a six cylinder Doxford with the
scavenge pump between four and five.

The "B"s were unique in the Shell fleet. They were the only Doxford
engined ships although I understand that there were some equiped with
Doxfords later on when Doxford went onto HVF. All other motor ships in
the Shell fleet ran on HVF but the fuel valves fitted to the Doxfords at
that time wouldn't allow it. Personally I was pleased. HVF wasn't much
fun for the engineers. We had a lot of problems on a Harland and Wolf,
B&W copy, that I sailed on.

I didn't think about it at the time, but in retrospect, 2 spare liners
is a bit much but that's what was supplied. I doubt if they were ever
used. We did a re-ring on number two cylinder and the bore was in good
condition.

Using my images will be fine. Would yu like me to email higher
resolution copies?

Regards

Derek

( I found a picture on Internet concerning the mv Bela Engine Room, I enlarged it and give the Engine a color, so it is indeed a 3-Legged)
Regards
Alfons

A.D.FROST
3rd January 2013, 10:35
The 3cyl. only had a side lever scavenge pump and were in the middles and could not be seen from the tops(as in the photo).The photo. shows the back of the engine tops(no hoses and protection covers).So the mystery deepens.(Center scavenge pump cowlings are much higher than the tops).
BELA /BORUS were a Empire "Intermediate" type.sisters EMPIRE COMMERCE,EMPIRE GAIN (BARBATIA),EMPIRE RUSSELL (BATISSA),EMPIRE CREST (BURSA),EMPIRE CROSS (BALEA),EMPIRE MALDEN (IMPERIAL HALIFAX),EMPIRE GANGES (BOLMA)(AUSTRALITY),EMPIRE ENSIGN (BRITISH DRUMMER),EMPIRE ARROW(BRITISH BUGLER),EMPIRE SENLAC (BULLINA)

32478 32480

averheijden
4th January 2013, 08:56
The 3cyl. only had a side lever scavenge pump and were in the middles and could not be seen from the tops(as in the photo).The photo. shows the back of the engine tops(no hoses and protection covers).So the mystery deepens.(Center scavenge pump cowlings are much higher than the tops).


A.D.F and other readers
I fully agree with your sight on the situation
So I asked Derek again, with a sketch, where I showed the direction of the yoke (transverse beam) in red, that it was NOT a Lever Driven Scav. pump.
Here was his answer:

Hi Alfons

The Bela had the lever type scavange pump. The six cylinder Norwegien Doxford had the crank driven pump. The Bela engine was basically laid out as shown. I think that the perspective in the photo is confusing. The top of the pump was lower than it appears. Unfortunately the old photographs are beginning to fade and are not in very good condition now.

I'm not certain about the horsepower but I think that it was around 3000. I could be wrong though. It was almost 60 years ago. I remember that it was similar to the much larger six cylinder B&W four stroke. Much against my wishes I had to give up the sea after 2 1/2 years because my father wanted me to help him start up a Motor and General Engineering business.
Regards
Derek

I give up now!
Regards
Alfons

averheijden
19th April 2013, 15:03
There was a 3 cylinder Doxford on at least 1 of the following China Nav. ships ..... Shansi, Soochow, Szechuan, Sinkiang all built UK 1945/46

L.S.

DOXFORD ENGINES: China Navigation Co and TAIKOO built DOXFORD's

http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters/tekst/DOXFORD%20ENGINES%20CHINA%20NAVIGATION%20CO%20HONG KONG.pdf

Regards
ALFONS (http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters)

A.D.FROST
19th April 2013, 16:53
L.S.

DOXFORD ENGINES: China Navigation Co and TAIKOO built DOXFORD's

http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters/tekst/DOXFORD%20ENGINES%20CHINA%20NAVIGATION%20CO%20HONG KONG.pdf

Regards
ALFONS (http://users.telenet.be/doxford-matters)

YUNNAN, YOCHOW 670LB5 and NINGHAI 670LB6

averheijden
19th April 2013, 18:16
YUNNAN, YOCHOW 670LB5 and NINGHAI 670LB6

Thanks Tony, soon I will add it to the list
Alfons

JKB
16th October 2013, 06:57
Alfons asked:
Who can tell more about his experience with the starting assister?

I was on the builder's sea trials of the "City Of Plymouth" out of Appledore Shipbuilders and I believe the problem with the over-enthusiastic dead-band assister occurred during that trial. I can't supply much detail as I kept out of the way, it seemed to me that the Doxford men had enough on their plates without me poking my nose in as well.

I thought it best to concentrate on the Blackstone generators that I was there to look after, but I seem to remember they had quite a bit of bother with flexible pipes failing and covering the job in oil prior to the big bang. The engine was a 58JS2, I believe.

Lurch
16th October 2013, 09:27
http://www.wikiswire.com/wiki/Soochow_III

japottinger
24th October 2013, 21:54
Was the Doxford engines built under licence by John Lewis fitted in the Lammermuir and a coaster and those from Ailsa three cyl?

japottinger
24th October 2013, 22:04
Was the Doxford engines built under licence by John Lewis fitted in the Lammermuir and a coaster and those from Ailsa three cyl?

Just checked
Lammermuir Eng no284 Not sure this engine was not actually built by Doxford
Trials 12 June 1950.
3 Cly, dia 440mm combined stroke 1440mm
Scavenge pump bore 1250mm x 387 stroke
At 950bhp speed 12.63 knots
At 1030 BHP 13.33 knots

hamishb
24th October 2013, 23:25
I have posted copies in the Gallery, taken from the Motorship November 1949 which gives a good account of the engine. Built by Doxford and the ship towed to Sunderland for the installation.
I have a little more information if anyone is interested. Thanks to John ( Jack ) Jordan, who kindly gave me this information
Hamish

A.D.FROST
25th October 2013, 08:44
J.Lewis and Alisa had licenses to build baby Doxfords(medium speed)
(Lew.BEN LUI,CARDIFFBROOK,SOLON)(Ala.CENTURY,NOUTHUMBRIAN PRINCE,RONA,WARRING)

hamishb
25th October 2013, 13:01
I have posted a list in the gallery,of Doxford engines built by licencees
Ailsa Shipbuilding Co.Ltd. and John Lewis & Co.Ltd. between 1952 & 1958.
Ailsa 6 engs
Lewis 5 engs

Bill Morrison
25th October 2013, 20:05
Hi A.D.
John Lewis also built a 4 cylinder Doxford. It was a 48. S.B.4 producing 1500 H.P. @ 135 R.P.M. It was fitted to the FAIRTRY one of the first freezer trawler's in 1954. I have search for information of this engine without success.
Regards.
Bill Morrison

hamishb
26th October 2013, 18:12
Hi A.D.
John Lewis also built a 4 cylinder Doxford. It was a 48. S.B.4 producing 1500 H.P. @ 135 R.P.M. It was fitted to the FAIRTRY one of the first freezer trawler's in 1954. I have search for information of this engine without success.
Regards.
Bill Morrison

Hi Bill I have been informed by A.D. that the ship name on the engine list was originally FAIRTRY and is shown on the list as JOY 18 Eng no 307 if that helps you atall
Regards
Hamish