Pamir

Kenneth Morley
8th January 2008, 05:01
Hi to all, Are there any EX "PAMIR" seamen out there,I was deckboy 1944/45, under New Zealand flag. Kenneth

Hugh Ferguson
8th January 2008, 10:01
Hi to all, Are there any EX "PAMIR" seamen out there,I was deckboy 1944/45, under New Zealand flag. Kenneth

Some are still around; I had a visit from one at Christmas! He wrote a book about his voyage, PAMIR, by Hillary Tunstall-Behrens.

Kenneth Morley
9th January 2008, 03:43
Hi Hugh, The name does'nt ring a bell, what voyage was your friend on the Pamir? Kenneth

Hugh Ferguson
9th January 2008, 22:03
G'day Ken, The voyage my friend was in her was early in 1952 to Rio de Janeiro by which time she had returned to the German flag. So. I would think it fairly unlikely that anyone you sailed with would still be there. Hilary shared a two berth cabin with Horst-Arno Fenski who, in the book, he says had been a radio man in a U.Boat. He had, in fact, been the commander of U.410!
He lists the names of everyone on board amongst which were the captain, Greiff; 1st mate, Eggers; 2nd mate, von Gernet; 3rd mate, Waldenburger; 4th mate, Fischer; an old sail-maker called Jimmy. The language all orders were given in was Platt Deutsch, a North German dialect.
The voyage got off to a bad start with them having a hard blow off the North Foreland when they had the Margate life-boat to stand-bye for a spell.
It's a well written account with a fore-word by Alan Villiers. If you fancy owning a copy I think you may find one on ABE BOOKS web-site. The title is,
PAMIR, A Voyage to Rio in a Four Masted Barque. Published in 1956 by Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd..

Kenneth Morley
10th January 2008, 03:49
Hi Hugh, Thanks for reply,I left her 1945. Have you had a look at the German film of her going down I was lucky Rudd had the DVD sent to me,it brings back great memories. By the way I was with Trinity House on Lightship Shipwash 71. also a couple of change overs with "Patricia" towing, a long time ago. Kenneth

spongebob
10th January 2008, 06:36
Hello Ken, suggest you look up my thread/post 14/12/07 headed Cutty Sark and Pamir.
I later sailed with Desmond Champion and Andy Keyworth both as Masters.
Des Champion's older brother was a earlier Master and both brothers also served on earlier voyages as mates. I think that Andy was on the ship from the early NZ flag days. There is a crew list somewhere on the net, are you aware of it? If not let me know and I will try to dig it out of my favourites perhaps.

I also worked ashore with Jack Lord who sailed a voyage or two on Pamir before joining the top sail schooner "Huia" ,she was on the Tasman run, carrying explosives if I remember rightly . Jack was an older man, probably 60 when I knew him in the early 60's

Kenneth Morley
11th January 2008, 21:57
Hi Bob, I sailed with Roy Champion (Captain) I do have complete lists of crews under NZ flag. When I payed off 1945 I was given the chance of sailing on the "Huia" but chose to take a trimmers job on the Raranga UK bound,great experience and bloody hard work, I also worked the Aussie Coast for 2 years fireman then greaser I liked being below. Kenneth

Kenneth Morley
21st September 2008, 02:27
Hi all, To-day 21September the PAMIR at 11/30am went down with great loss of life. My first ship I cannot forget her .All thoghs whom lost thier lives rest in peace, Kenneth Morley

spongebob
21st September 2008, 03:36
Ken, I can uderstand your emotions, The Pamir was boyhood favorite of mine and I was on the Rangitane one day out of Southampton the day she went down
Bob

M. Morris
3rd October 2008, 08:38
I am posting on behalf of Jack Cameron who was onboard the Pamir 1942 and 1945. He was most interested that I had found this site and remembers your names. He is just finishing his book that contains chapters on the Pamir under Roy Champion. He lives on the Gold Coast and can be contacted 0755931401.

JimC
4th October 2008, 14:23
Hi lads!

I was in the same storm and we, like many others could do nothing. Too far away and it was so bad we had problems ourselves.

Jim C.

sidsal
5th October 2008, 22:51
Hi all. On HMS Conway - the training ship there was a cadet - The Honourable Gerald Balfour who later became Viscount Taprain. He died a couple of years ago. He sailed as a deck hand on Pamir after the war and there was quite a bit in the Press about this titled deckhand. He was a nice chap - possibly some of you knew him.
In 1944 I was an apprentice on a Canadian "Fort" boat and we called at Durban to be fumigated. The Pamir was lying at anchor there and another cadet and I called alongside her in the motor boat. There was only the master and, I believe, one other aboard as the crew had scarpered as she had taken weeks and weeks to come from Capetown. He tried to peruade us to jump ship and sail with him but , being wartime we declined.
Dates and facts may be somewhat astray as it is a long tome ago.
Sid Davies

are39
9th January 2009, 11:12
Hi to all, Are there any EX "PAMIR" seamen out there,I was deckboy 1944/45, under New Zealand flag. Kenneth

HI Ken
Try George Gunn C/O port of napier NZ
He was Harbour master but since retired but they would know
Mike bishop
jumi5

spongebob
25th March 2009, 02:26
During my recent visit to NZ I discovered that an old Pamir crewman, Ron Montgomery, lives near my brother in law and plays lawn bowls with him.
They are aged 88 and 87 respectively and are said to be gun bowlers.

Ron is not a computer user but after prompting by another friend he has agreed to be interviewed by the editor of the local news paper about his sea going days so I hope to report further in the near future.

Regards Bob

Shipbuilder
25th March 2009, 21:27
I first put the following under the heading of Working Aloft, and it was well viewed and had a lot of replies. Unfortunately, most of them went off at a tangent and started talking about steamers and motorships! I know all about them, I sailed in 19 of them between 1961 and late 1992 and was not unduly perturbed about going aloft in them. What I really meant the question to aply to was "commercial cargo-carrying sailing ships," vessels like PAMIR, PASSAT, ARCHIBALD RUSSELL and a thousand others.
Bob

Here is original question:
----------------------------------------------
I know that a number of you have served in "real" square riggers, carrying cargo and wonder what your thoughts are on the following:

From my very earliest years, I have been interested in sailing ships ever since reading my grandfather's copies of THE WIDE WORLD magazine in the 1950s. Tales of the wrecks of the CRICCIETH CASTLE, DUNDONALD and SVAERDSTAD springing immediately to mind. All my life, I have avidly read the old autobiographies of men in sail (and still do at the age of 65). When I left school in 1959, if there had been a single British commercial sailing ship around, I would have certainly been apprenticed to her! I went to sea in early 1961 as radio officer and finally left in late 1992! During those years, I never shirked any duties that might take me aloft. Indeed, I often revelled in them despite an initial "cold fear" of heights.

But what of real sailing ships! I could, and still can, imagine reaching the t'gallant doublings and pulling myself up to the royal yard up the greased royal mast using backstays and halliards only and no ratlines. But what still strikes a certain "doubt" in my mind is the negotaition of the futtock shrouds to the lower tops. I still wonder would I have the courage to climb, leaning backwards, to the top. The very thought of it turns my blood cold!

I have been aloft in schooners and the like, but nothing with futtcock shrouds.

How difficult and terrifying was it in "real"terms? I am now 65 and will probably never have the chance, but as I am still physically very supple, I would be more than happy to give it at try. What was it really like?
What were your feelings and fears when first climbing to the "tops?"

Also, when going up the weather side to the mainyard, was it an awful long step to the footrope, or did you go the the lee side and move across the forward part of the mast?

The above refers to cargo carriers, I have little or no interest in modern sail training ships (unless they are of the old ilk such as PADUA, VIKING, POMMERN & MAGDALENE VINNEN etc.

Bob

spongebob
25th March 2009, 23:28
I am wondering if Ken Morley or Jack Cameron, posted above, recall Ron Montgomery. The crew members that sailed on Pamir must be down to a small and exclusive group of men by now,.

Bob

James Vaughan
22nd April 2009, 21:59
Hi Hugh,

I’m a new member doing research on my uncle’s ship (USCGS MENGES DE320) which was torpedoed off the coast of Algeria in ’44. The sub, U-371, was commanded by Horst-Arno Fenski who you referenced as sailing on the Pamir in 1952. I’ve been able to get a copy of the book through interlibrary loan and found it to be a very good read. But, since the shipmate – Horst – is only mentioned by his first name, I was wondering how you know it was in fact Fenski? Like most good stories, the villain tends to be the most fascinating character and I’ve been trying to find out all I can about him – especially his early death in Hamburg. Unfortunately, there’s not much out there.

Thanks,
Jim Vaughan

AJWILL
15th June 2009, 23:00
Hi Hugh,

I’m a new member doing research on my uncle’s ship (USCGS MENGES DE320) which was torpedoed off the coast of Algeria in ’44. The sub, U-371, was commanded by Horst-Arno Fenski who you referenced as sailing on the Pamir in 1952. I’ve been able to get a copy of the book through interlibrary loan and found it to be a very good read. But, since the shipmate – Horst – is only mentioned by his first name, I was wondering how you know it was in fact Fenski? Like most good stories, the villain tends to be the most fascinating character and I’ve been trying to find out all I can about him – especially his early death in Hamburg. Unfortunately, there’s not much out there.

Thanks,
Jim Vaughan

Hiya Jim
I have also looked but havn't found much at all.my first experience of going to sea i had a distressing voyage in 1957 when i was 15 i got a job as Deck Boy onboard a rust bucket called SS SUNRISE a 5.000 tonn general cargo we loaded china clay from Fowe to Portland Maine,hwhat happened there is another story!!from Maine we to Savanna Georgia light where we loaded scrap metal, for Leath in Edingbourgh,on the way back we ran into Hurricane Carrie,of course as soon as we hit our cargo shifted and gave us a very bad liste to port,we had a distress signal from the PAMIR.
but the liste we hade made it impossible to alter our course.we had to ride it out,we did eventually made Leath,but beleave me it wasn't pleasant. take care all....Regards to you all!!! Alan (BUNGY) Williams P/S she was under a German Flag at the time

Billieboy
16th June 2009, 08:26
G'day Ken,
It's a well written account with a fore-word by Alan Villiers. If you fancy owning a copy I think you may find one on ABE BOOKS web-site. The title is,
PAMIR, A Voyage to Rio in a Four Masted Barque. Published in 1956 by Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd..

When I was growing up in Barry, our next door neighbor was an old salt called George Mallinson, an expat Scot, who was a Sailing Master in the Australian grain trade between the wars. He'd had Allan Villiers in his crew one time as second mate. Whenever Villiers came on the TV, (in the black and white days), he'd be grumbling and growling!(EEK)

Hugh Ferguson
16th June 2009, 19:44
Do you remember, Billyboy, when the Pamir and Passat lay stem to stern in Penarth Dock with grain cargoes which had been condemned. I spent the day aboard both of them but cannot remember the year.

Billieboy
16th June 2009, 20:40
Do you remember, Billyboy, when the Pamir and Passat lay stem to stern in Penarth Dock with grain cargoes which had been condemned. I spent the day aboard both of them but cannot remember the year.

Sorry Hugh, they were never in Penarth docks,so far as I can remember, as Penarth docks was only a tidal lay by wooden jetty, (they would be on the mud twice a day), they were berthed in No. 2 Dock at Barry lying alongside at Ranks' Mill. The year would have been 1948, somewhere around April/May, as I think that they came up channel on a Sunday before or after Whitsun as there weren't many people on the Barry Island Beach at the time. The ships were fumigated and the cargo discharged in Barry. Both ships lay there for a considerable time, before being sold. To get to the No.2 Dock in Barry it would be only a short drive from Penarth station.

I had good contacts with the docks, as my aunt was the secretary to the Dock Manager; Nothing happened without her say so. I remember my old neighbor saying that the crews, "Needed a good talking to", for arriving with all the cockies! I hope this helps, it is, after all, 62 years ago!

Hugh Ferguson
16th June 2009, 21:15
I knew it was somewhere thereabouts. I remember inviting one of the crew back to my home in Newport for a few hours. All he could think about was getting back to sea again, he was really chocka.
I remember meeting one old shell-back on board one of them, and the next thing I saw he was halfway up the rigging to the mainyard and I'm certain he was well into his seventies!! At that time I believe they both belonged to Ericson and flew the Finnish flag. They then passed into German ownership which is when my friend Hilary sailed in the Pamir.

Jim sargent
18th June 2009, 04:13
You're right Bob, the ex-Pamir men must be down to a small exclusive group now. Jack Barbour (I think the spelling is correct) was 2nd or 3rd officer in Monowai in 1954...I believe he was sailmaker in Pamir at one time.
Sailed with "Slim" Martin in Karamu in 1955 and he claimed to have been a DB in Pamir.
Do those names ring any bells?
Jim S

spongebob
18th June 2009, 05:22
You are right Jim, they are indeed a small group. The name Slim Martin rings a feint bell but he only other Pamir members that I actually sailed with was Des Champion when he was master of the Kaitangata and Andy Keyworth who was master of the Navua, both during the late 50's

Bob

Jim sargent
19th June 2009, 04:21
Hi Bob,
I never sailed with Des Champion or Andy Keyworth but the names are part of USSCo history. When I was in Navua (1956-57) we had four different masters..."Tich" Brayshay, "D.F" Dillner, Bennett & Schofield.
Tich was vertically challenged and we had to build him two sets of steps so he could see over the bridge dodgers. Dillner had a love affair with the Direction Finder system (DF)...I think he wore the earphones to bed.
All the best,
Jim S

spongebob
19th June 2009, 05:58
Jim, the names keep coming back, knew Tich Brayshay , or was it Brayshaw? when he was skipper on Kaimai. Bennett is another name I remember but there was also Capt. Bales who was master of the Navua when I joined in 1958 and he seemed to alternate with Andy Keyworth
Were you on board the Navua when she bent a main engine connecting rod in Fijian waters? She was laid up there for months while the Metaloc men stitched the engine castings together again.

Regards Bob

Jim sargent
29th June 2009, 03:40
Hi Bob.
Somehow we've drifted off the Pamir thread so this is just a quick answer. Tich was definitely Brayshay..actual name was Dennis. Not the greatest ship handler and there were some unkind people who claimed that he got his ticket for good attendance after the eight attempt. I found him OK.
Bales I remember as Master of Karamu back in 1955.
I was in Navua June '56 to Feb.'57 and did a trip in Konui while Navua was laid up.Picked her up again in April '57 through to July so was not there when she bent a rod. The only bent thing aboard in my time was "Cora" the cook.
Jim

ex-RNLI
8th November 2013, 14:40
G'day Ken, ---snip--- The voyage got off to a bad start with them having a hard blow off the North Foreland when they had the Margate life-boat to stand-bye for a spell.
It's a well written account with a fore-word by Alan Villiers. If you fancy owning a copy I think you may find one on ABE BOOKS web-site. The title is,
PAMIR, A Voyage to Rio in a Four Masted Barque. Published in 1956 by Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd..

G'day folks, from an UK ex-pat living in Adelaide, South Ozzie, since 1966.

I'm writing because of being invited to chat to a Lions' Club several months ago about my association with the Margate life-boat in the 50's just after leaving the R.A.F., and when I showed the audience a picture of the life-boat taken from the starboard side of the Pamir - just forr'ard of one set of shrouds (hard to work out which mast) - I realised there was a story that might be of interest here.

http://rnli.southaust.net/images/Pamir-1.jpg

The photo was obviously taken by someone on board "Pamir" at the time.

This was shortly before I became a "helper on shore" with the Margate station - effectively an apprenticeship to being a crew member, what was in those days called a "runner for a belt".

The photo somehow found its way to the RNLI (whose HQ was in London at that time) and they used it in about 1956 or maybe 57 in a publicity brochure.

Wondered if anyone might know whose photo it was, so I can attribute ownership of it on the website I'm putting together?



Richard in Adelaide

Bosun ken
1st January 2014, 00:27
Hi, Sponge bob and Ken Morley,
No , I never sailed in the "Pamir" but.....I could have and I should have. The question is Why ?

This is my starting place of this story. I was 22 years old , when I first saw the "Pamir" in 1946 at the railway Wharf in Lyttelton. I went on board hoping to get one of the crew to show me around. I spoke to one fellow and his name happened to be ' Gerald Balfour ' he told me that the Mates name was 'Bill Galloway ' coincidently I had sailed with a chap named Don Mander , he told me that he had a brother who was on the " Pamir " and that he was in the " Penang" when she was dismasted. It happened to be 'Bill Galloway," his half brother .and that he had knocked back the Masters job. when offered . Bill finished up Harbour Master in Wellington .. When He retired he took up growing Kiwi fruit , sadly he was killed in a car accident,
Well I had plans to join the " Pamir" but it wasn't that've easy.,( the best laid plans of mice and men .) ? .........
The ship I was on then , was. The " Pakeha"a coal burner , owned by S.S.& A. Which eventually earned a bad reputation on the coast . " Pakeha " was the Maori name , for whiteman , but I was told that it really means ' Not wanted here '
It was before Christmas , when the " Pamir " sailed for Sydney N.S.W. N the tugs were tied up ready for sailing. I was there with a few others , A strong southerly was blowing, and as she left the Harbour, her head sails were set .. She rounded the breakwater, the tugs we're let go and soon she was racing down the harbour, with topsails setting, and cracking like cannons . She reached " Godley Head in no time . The Pilot eventually was dropped off , with difficulty I believe. Ian Bracey and Kenny Sinclair ( whom I sailed with on the Marabank") were deck boys in her then.
Anyhow I eventually joined the ". Seamans Union " after I was ' cleared'. Tommy Martin was the secretary at the time.The first thing I asked him ,was how can I join the " Pamir" His reply was .you wait until there's a job in her. Same as everybody else.
Well I knocked around the coast joining two or three ships, including the " Rata" .where I was ship mates with "dodger Kronin" an ex A.B on the " Pamir" . Tony Barratt was the Mate at the time, Tony was mate on the " Huia" the last time I heard of dodger , was when he was fishing off Greymouth , where he lived.
Well of course there was " Ossie Ayling" whom I was shipmates with , a couple of times He was a legend . A.B. .....Bosun......Third Mate on her last voyage . Sadly " Ossie " passed away a few years ago , he lived near me at " Umima" on the central coast of N.S.W.,Bluey Waterhouse , another old " Pamir Crew member he lived near " Ossie" the last time I saw him was at a Seamans Chrismas Party in Sydney about 10 years ago . There were others but I've forgotten them , I remember " Jack Stiles " from Lyttelton, I was with him in one of the River" class ships I've forgotten which one. He was living in Western Australia ,at the time ,I think .
Then there was the Pearson twins, Michael and Maurice. I knew Michael when he was a deck boy on the" Pamir" and his brother ,Maurice joined the ""Pakeha" as deck boy I never met him and I don't know what happened too him. Michael who was in the " Pamir". Finished up Harbour Master in Lyttelton . Andy Keyworth was Mate on the " Pamir" when she sailed for the U.K. In 1947"I knew his brother Bob Keyworth when he was second Mate on the "Waimarino" when I sailed in herI paid off the Waimarino "" later and joined the " Marabank" it was well known on the N.Z.coast. We sailed for Nauru ,and Ocean Island and loaded phosphate ,with difficulty , as the Japs had damaged the cantilever which loaded the ore. We were loading in steel buckets, brought out on converted landing craft for the job .it wasn't long before a Derrick collapsed , bent in the middle . But that's another story
We loaded for S.A. First in Wallaroo ,then in Port Adelaide, Where met a girl whom I eventually Married. After we had discharged, we then went into Drydock in Sydney When I decided to go back to Adelaide,.We had signed repatriation articles , the Mate never stood in my way to pay off. I was ashore for a few days , when I met Billy Eager, who coaxed me to join the Adelaide companies ship "Dilga, she was sailing for Adelaide with a load of sugar.Anyway I met my girl again, and we were married in Port Adelaide. We decided to go to Moonta , her home town , a few miles from Wallaroo .and a couple of hours run to " Port Victoria" I went ashore and met the family , I found out at that time there wasn't much work around , so I went to Wallaroo and got a job ( sea gulling) on the Wharf loading ships with bagged wheat and Barley ,it was hard work carrying 180 lb bags of wheat in ships holds ,on your back all day long. Often I would get a job driving winches on local ships, times when we couldn't get a lob ,we would do a bit of fishing off the Wharf. One day I was talking too a local chap whom I was working with, he told me that there was a couple of sailing ships were arriving in Port Victoria soon , the " Pamir" and. The " Passat" I told him that I knew the " Pamir" when I was on the N.Z. Coast .he said that he would tell his mate as they were making up a gang to load them . I think they wanted me to drive the " winch" . Eventually I got word that they would pick me up at 6 am at 5-30 . My alarm clock refused to go off. I awoke at twenty past six.im too late I said , my wife replied,why don't you go , they might be waiting for you. I still had a couple of miles to push a bike.i then made the worst decision of my life. I didn't go. I met one of the gang over the weekend , he told me that they waited for me,and that they were on the " Pamir" . They had found another man . I didn't know the area to good . Anyway I asked them to mention my name. Later on they told me that they said that they knew me. I didn't find out until later that they had signed repatriation articles and were being paid full N.Z. Wages. I had to go back to sea.and at the pickup in Port Adelaide , I asked the port secretary if there were any jobs in the " Pamir" he said there were two jobs in her last week and two chaps off the" Lawhill" joined her. A week later I found out whose jobs they were . Two A.B.s on the " Pamir" who got into a fight in a "Pub in "Maitland" with copper , and were arrested and sent to Jail for 2 months. Bad luck again on my part I would have been there.
There were more jobs before she sailed but i wasn't there.
The book that Jack Churchouse wrote " The Pamir wil tell you the story of her voyage under the N.Z. Flag . I did a nostalgic trip around the N.Z. Ports ,around 25 years ago, and had a photo of him and I together , outside the Museum. A couple of years later, I heard that he was working up a ladder ,and fell off and hit his head and died.
Digressing a few moments, regarding " Tich Brayshay" He was on the " Kaikorai" as second Mate, those days we called him 'The little admiral ' although he did think that he was very important.
Well I hope that these " few " words will interest you ,and that you would know some of the crew members on the " Pamir". It's a true story . My name by the way is Ken Wilson, and I don't know if anyone would remember me . I will be 90 years old in May. C'est la vie .

ex-RNLI
4th January 2014, 05:41
Hullo Bosun Ken, and welcome to the board.

I wonder if any of the folk who have previously posted are still around, it was some years from the previous one to my post, to my post. I saw you had edited your post a few days ago. Sounds like you had a busy life back then :)

Anyway, Happy New Year, mate, may you have a great one in 2014 :)

Richard in Adelaide, South Ozzie

spongebob
28th January 2014, 05:46
Hello Ken, I have just picked up on your above thread and the many names that I recall. I sailed with Andy Keyworth when he was master on the Navua.
Interesting to hear that you sailed on SS&A ship Pakeha. This was the ship that my dad was a steerage class immigrant passenger on from London to NZ in the early 1920's and I saw the old vertical bowed, counter sterned steamer in Auckland in the early 1950's before she went to the scrap yard.
Re Pamir crew, old member Ron Alexander, now in his early nineties, is still playing lawn bowls at the Hobsonville club in Auckland.

Bob

Bosun ken
29th January 2014, 00:46
Hi , Bob , it was good to hear from you , and your father migrating on the Pakeha.We have covered the "Pamir "and now it's the " Pakeha"
Well Bob I joined the Pakeha in the London docks. At that time she was called the "Empire. Pakeha" . When you mentioned about her having a " counter stern "the company must have had the " dummy cruiser stern removed, as she was at " dummy cruiser " in Scapa Flow "during the war . She was at coal burner , around 12,000 tons .( I think .) She had refrigerated holds , Down below she had four double ended boilers , with four fires each end. And enough Firemen and Trimmers , for a football team. Sailors forward and the down below boys , aft., She was a hard job. It worked out good that way. I would be pleased if you asked more about her.
Ken.

Bosun ken
30th January 2014, 00:55
Hi ,I forgot to,mention Ron Alexander, I knew him but I don't think he would remember me. after all it's nearly 70.years ago. Ken

Hugh Ferguson
10th April 2014, 18:24
I spent a few hours yesterday yarning with a friend of mine who made a voyage in the PAMIR and wrote a book about it which was published in 1956: fore-word by Alan Villiers.

My friend's name is Hilary Tunstall-Behrens and he asked me if I could post a piece on this web-site enquiring about one of the crew who sailed in the Pamir on that voyage all those years ago.

His name, he tells me, was Fenski and he claimed to have been a U.Boat commander during the war. That claim was viewed by his fellow crew members, not surprisingly, with some disbelief.

But there was indeed a Horst-Arno Fenski who commanded the U.410 and the U.371 in 1943 and 1944. He was a P.O.W from 4th May 1944, to 4th May 1946.
I wonder if anyone could throw some light on this? Did Fenski go to sea in the Pamir?

roymuir
10th April 2014, 18:51
I have a book at home (at sea at the moment) written by Jack Churchhouse I think, that lists each crew for each trip that Pamir did under the Kiwi flag. I have met a few that have said they sailed in her but have been proven wrong by this book.
Two that I know who did sail in her were Allan Rogerson and Aussie Ayling, sadly they are both no longer with us.

Butters
11th April 2014, 03:54
I have just picked up on this recent discussion on 'PAMIR', my father was on the 'ALEXANDER' and left in Wellington after being told the bargue required an AB he stood twice but was not picked up and so joined the 'POOLTA', which was on the coal run from the West Coast.
There are still a few I know who were Deckboys & O.S on the barque . George Gunn who lives not far from me in Napier , Gilbert Inkster in Nelson , jack Barbour in Tauranga all former Harbourmaster's around New Zealand . Malcolm Pearson is still in Purau in Lyttelton also Maurice I think . Malcolm was Master in the coastal cement vessels and in retirement has spent a lot of years as Master on the preserved 1907 stem tug 'LYTTELTON 1'. I am sure there are still more than them around . I came across and sailed with quite a few during my time at sea with Union Company and later also when in the Stevedoring Industry.

Butters

spongebob
11th April 2014, 05:25
Hi ,I forgot to,mention Ron Alexander, I knew him but I don't think he would remember me. after all it's nearly 70.years ago. Ken

Ron Alexander is living in Whenuapai Auckland and I believe he is alive and we'll and still bowling at the Hobsonville greens at an age heading for the mid nineties.
I met him about 18 months ago when he attended my brother in law's funeral.

Bob

ben27
12th April 2014, 01:44
good day spongebob.m.25 march.2009.10:26.#14re:parmir.i have been reading your old post.i note you have some old friends.could you ask them if they knew fred paulin.ships carpenter.he sailed on the pamir late 40's early 50' voyage to london.(i think the queen visited the vessel)he has since passed on.he lived in l/h nz.thanks in advance for your help.regards ben27

Bosun ken
12th April 2014, 06:32
Hi ,Butters, Again my memories are called upon ......the "Poolta" .i think it was a reparation ship ,which the Union Co. operated as a collier , just after the war. Another ship was the " Wingatui " I remember our pick up officer , Felix Newfield , use to shout out ( when there were jobs in her" i.e. ' two firemen for the " Vingatui" a well liked Union official at that time . As the legend goes , light ship ,when heading for Greymouth , hit a strong southerly, and forced to circulated around the north island stern first ??? . She was a coal burner, perhaps the fire men didn't sober up until they reached North Cape.

spongebob
12th April 2014, 07:09
Hi ,Butters, Again my memories are called upon ......the "Poolta" .i think it was a reparation ship ,which the Union Co. operated as a collier , just after the war. Another ship was the " Wingatui " I remember our pick up officer , Felix Newfield , use to shout out ( when there were jobs in her" i.e. ' two firemen for the " Vingatui" a well liked Union official at that time . As the legend goes , light ship ,when heading for Greymouth , hit a strong southerly, and forced to circulated around the north island stern first ??? . She was a coal burner, perhaps the fire men didn't sober up until they reached North Cape.


Ken, I am sure that there is an old post on this site by Peter Kiddell about this legend.

Bob

spongebob
12th April 2014, 07:19
good day spongebob.m.25 march.2009.10:26.#14re:parmir.i have been reading your old post.i note you have some old friends.could you ask them if they knew fred paulin.ships carpenter.he sailed on the pamir late 40's early 50' voyage to london.(i think the queen visited the vessel)he has since passed on.he lived in l/h nz.thanks in advance for your help.regards ben27

Hello Ben, the name rings a bell so I will ask Ron Alexander if I get the chance.
Andy Keyworth was the Mate on the Pamir on that voyage to the UK when the then Princess Elizabeth visited the ship . I later sailed with Andy when he was the master of the Navua and he told us more than once about his role in escorting he around the Pamir. He claimed that she was a shy nervous young lady and that he put at ease!

Bob

Hugh Ferguson
12th April 2014, 10:10
I have a book at home (at sea at the moment) written by Jack Churchhouse I think, that lists each crew for each trip that Pamir did under the Kiwi flag. I have met a few that have said they sailed in her but have been proven wrong by this book.
Two that I know who did sail in her were Allan Rogerson and Aussie Ayling, sadly they are both no longer with us.

If you could keep this in mind, Roy, when you get back ashore I would be most grateful if you come up with some information.
I'm not sure of the date of that voyage but it was to Rio de Janeiro.

Hugh Ferguson
12th April 2014, 11:55
I spent a few hours yesterday yarning with a friend of mine who made a voyage in the PAMIR and wrote a book about it which was published in 1956: fore-word by Alan Villiers.

My friend's name is Hilary Tunstall-Behrens and he asked me if I could post a piece on this web-site enquiring about one of the crew who sailed in the Pamir on that voyage all those years ago.

His name, he tells me, was Fenski and he claimed to have been a U.Boat commander during the war. That claim was viewed by his fellow crew members, not surprisingly, with some disbelief.

But there was indeed a Horst-Arno Fenski who commanded the U.410 and the U.371 in 1943 and 1944. He was a P.O.W from 4th May 1944, to 4th May 1946.
I wonder if anyone could throw some light on this? Did Fenski go to sea in the Pamir?

The voyage to Rio was made early 1952.

ben27
13th April 2014, 01:14
good day spongebob.m.yesterday.15:19.#41.re:parmir.thank you for your reply.look forward to hearing from you again.regards ben27

Scotch Boiler
13th April 2014, 01:43
Wet Sunday here and time on my hands. I sailed with Syd Jones on the Auckland tugs. Syd had been an o/s {I think} on the Pamir. His name was mentioned in one of the Pamir books.
Don't know what he was like on the Pamir, but as a tug skipper he was a law unto himself.

Bosun ken
13th April 2014, 06:23
Hi Gordon,
What I write here in this thread I hope doesn't cause any trouble.
However I knew Syd( bullshit) Jones which was the name he was called on the " Pamir" . K
At the time I was on the " Port Tauronga". Just ahead of the "Pamir in Wellington prior to her sailing for the U.K. The Ship had a light cargo of hides and tallow , and was waiting for a wind. I then met B.S. jones . He was in a sorry state when I approached him he broke down and told me that he had been sacked , and put ashore . He told me face to face that he had been in the galley messing about , trying to get the fire going , He then got some kerosine and threw on to the fire ,when the flame soared up the flue , and
up the mast . Andy Keyworth was the mate , and blew his top apparently . and sacked him on the spot . I know it was the wrong thing to do....and at sailing time ,but no quarter was given by the mate. The incident stuck in my craw all my life , as later on I was to suffer disappointment, but in a different way. When the "Pamir" finally sailed I was there watching and managed to take a photo of her , practically under full sail . That was the last time I saw her.

roymuir
13th April 2014, 07:19
If you could keep this in mind, Roy, when you get back ashore I would be most grateful if you come up with some information.
I'm not sure of the date of that voyage but it was to Rio de Janeiro.

G'day Hugh,
I have just looked on the net and the book "Pamir: Under the New Zealand Ensign" by Jack Churchouse is widely available at an average cost of about $95.00. You may be able to find it cheaper with a bit of luck.
When I get home I will be in touch again and try and put the crew lists on this site.

Regards, Roy.

Scotch Boiler
14th April 2014, 01:38
Hi Gordon,
What I write here in this thread I hope doesn't cause any trouble.
However I knew Syd( bullshit) Jones which was the name he was called on the " Pamir" . K
At the time I was on the " Port Tauronga". Just ahead of the "Pamir in Wellington prior to her sailing for the U.K. The Ship had a light cargo of hides and tallow , and was waiting for a wind. I then met B.S. jones . He was in a sorry state when I approached him he broke down and told me that he had been sacked , and put ashore . He told me face to face that he had been in the galley messing about , trying to get the fire going , He then got some kerosine and threw on to the fire ,when the flame soared up the flue , and
up the mast . Andy Keyworth was the mate , and blew his top apparently . and sacked him on the spot . I know it was the wrong thing to do....and at sailing time ,but no quarter was given by the mate. The incident stuck in my craw all my life , as later on I was to suffer disappointment, but in a different way. When the "Pamir" finally sailed I was there watching and managed to take a photo of her , practically under full sail . That was the last time I saw her.

That is interesting Ken, I thought that he had just done the one trip, and that is the reason.

spongebob
14th April 2014, 03:47
Andy Keyworth was a hard task master at the best of times, perhaps lacking a sense of humour, but was enthusiastic about his job.

Bob

duncs
14th April 2014, 05:23
Hi, I sailed with a RO, Frank Patterson, who had sailed as bosun on Pamir, after the war. He had many interesting tales.

Bosun ken
14th April 2014, 08:18
Hi, duncs, I've been scouring the pages of Jack Churchouses , book ,of the "Pamir" and couldn't find Frank Patersons name ,perhaps you could tell me where the section is mentioning him as Bosun . Not all voyages of the crews of the "Pamir" were reported . What I remember is that Don Urquart was the bosun in 1946 and before . I know that he was reluctant to take the job ,as he stated that he never had the experience in sail . He was well liked , and the crew urged him to take it . I remember him when he had a couple of boys over the side chipping the wind and water plate , I now know that it was the plate between , the topside and the boot- topping .After five years at sea, at that time, I should have . Don stirred my memory .

duncs
16th April 2014, 10:42
Hi, duncs, I've been scouring the pages of Jack Churchouses , book ,of the "Pamir" and couldn't find Frank Patersons name ,perhaps you could tell me where the section is mentioning him as Bosun . Not all voyages of the crews of the "Pamir" were reported . What I remember is that Don Urquart was the bosun in 1946 and before . I know that he was reluctant to take the job ,as he stated that he never had the experience in sail . He was well liked , and the crew urged him to take it . I remember him when he had a couple of boys over the side chipping the wind and water plate , I now know that it was the plate between , the topside and the boot- topping .After five years at sea, at that time, I should have . Don stirred my memory .

Hi Ken, I may be wrong, maybe he wasn't Bosun. He, Frank, never said that he was, it was others who said it.
I've not read any books on the 'Pamir', I'm only going by the stories Frank told me. I believe he was a very genuine guy. (He's long gone now).
Duncs

Joe Freeman
16th April 2014, 23:31
Hi Ken, I may be wrong, maybe he wasn't Bosun. He, Frank, never said that he was, it was others who said it.
I've not read any books on the 'Pamir', I'm only going by the stories Frank told me. I believe he was a very genuine guy. (He's long gone now).
Duncs

Hi Duncs, Frank Patterson was the R/O on Benvalla during one of my trips. I remember the stories of his experiences on the return of the Pamir as a war prize from South America to England. I posted a picture of him sitting in my cabin along with 2nd. Mate George Marriot, 2nd. Eng. Colin Richardson and 1st. Mate George Walker. There is no doubt in my mind that during the time of this picture he told the story of him being Bosun on Pamir.
Look in members faces for the picture.
He certainly was a great guy and story teller.
Joe.

Butters
17th April 2014, 05:15
I have a copy of the book 'PAMIR', by Sydney Waters printed in the late 1940's this has crew lists for all voyages but not as much about the ship itself as the one Jack Churchouse wrote.

Butters

duncs
19th April 2014, 02:03
Hi Duncs, Frank Patterson was the R/O on Benvalla during one of my trips. I remember the stories of his experiences on the return of the Pamir as a war prize from South America to England. I posted a picture of him sitting in my cabin along with 2nd. Mate George Marriot, 2nd. Eng. Colin Richardson and 1st. Mate George Walker. There is no doubt in my mind that during the time of this picture he told the story of him being Bosun on Pamir.
Look in members faces for the picture.
He certainly was a great guy and story teller.
Joe.

Hi Joe, I was Jnr/RO with Frank on the Valla, and as you can understand, as such, I spent a lot of time with him, and heard a lot of his stories. As J/RO, I was the lowest of the low, and was treated as such, by all, except Frank. The only people I could have a serious conversion with was Frank and an elderly(to me), AB called Willie Stickle. I saw your picture, by chance here: http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/64274/title/benvalla-officers/cat/5,4
Frank died, late 70's(can't remember the date). I have been told that he arranged his own demise.
He was one of the best, and I for one, will never forget him.
Duncs

tsell
19th April 2014, 04:48
Sorry Hugh, they were never in Penarth docks,so far as I can remember, as Penarth docks was only a tidal lay by wooden jetty, (they would be on the mud twice a day), they were berthed in No. 2 Dock at Barry lying alongside at Ranks' Mill. The year would have been 1948, somewhere around April/May, as I think that they came up channel on a Sunday before or after Whitsun as there weren't many people on the Barry Island Beach at the time. The ships were fumigated and the cargo discharged in Barry. Both ships lay there for a considerable time, before being sold. To get to the No.2 Dock in Barry it would be only a short drive from Penarth station.

I had good contacts with the docks, as my aunt was the secretary to the Dock Manager; Nothing happened without her say so. I remember my old neighbor saying that the crews, "Needed a good talking to", for arriving with all the cockies! I hope this helps, it is, after all, 62 years ago!

Hi Billieboy,

As a lad in 1949, just before going to sea, a mate and I cycled to
Penarth from Cardiff and scooted around the Pamir, before being chased by the watchman. As my memory is not so good, I did a bit of research and found this in the Penarth Times:

"In 1949 the arrival of two commercial sailing ships in Penarth sparked something of a media frenzy.
Sisterships Passat and the Pamir - which were to spend over a year in Penarth - were well known around the world because they were the last square-rigged sailing ships to go around the Horn."

Cheers,

Taff