Queen and Country

CEYLON220
16th February 2008, 09:44
I`ve been having a friendly arguement with RAF mate of mine about swearing allegiance to the Queen & Country when we both joined the service, my arguement was that as a young 17 year old signing on for 12 years of my life(plus another 10 years later on) to the Royal Navy I could not remember pledging either nor was there a bible or flag present to swear on, this guy says that all the 3 services pledged an oath on joining, I still say that I never and I read somewhere that the Navy were classed as "pirates" away back in history and thus did not pledge loyalty to the sovereign or to the country, am I right or do I have to give way to the "flyboys" (heavens forbid!!!/

trotterdotpom
16th February 2008, 11:22
My son joined the Australian army recently and we watched him and others swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen of Australia. There were flags and bibles present. They even stood there with their hands on their hearts - I wondered if he was joining the American army!

Naturally, Ceylon wouldn't have done that. One minute he would have looked into the bottom of his glass and seen a shilling, the next he would have woken up thinking: "Why is the floor moving?"

John T.

yorky jim
16th February 2008, 11:56
I joined the "royal navy" ..DEC 1965...and all i was told of official secret act ...so in doing so i became very careful in what pics i took ,when i was first out in the far flung........but now i wish i had done better in my choice ,but seeing ships around all the time you just took every thing for granted.......but now they have all been scrapped ,and there are no secrets any more.

yorky jim

jocksenior
16th February 2008, 15:57
joined at Ganges 10th Oct 1962. Never swore alliegiance, though I did when I joined the Sea Cadets in 1959.

David Davies
16th February 2008, 19:38
On joining the Royal Navy one does not swear allegiance to the King or Queen as you agree to serve in the "King's Navy" in much the same way that a merchant seaman signs the articles of agreement to obey the lawful commands of the master. In early days the King had his own ships built and paid the wages of the crews out of his own pocket so it was the Kings Navy or Royal Navy. The same system applied to the merchants who had their own ships built and paid the crews wages thus becoming the Merchant's Navy. (the title MN dated long before 1926)The only exception to this in the RN are the Royal Marines whose original purpose was to impose the rule of the Commander on the crew and fight as sea soldiers an as such swore allegiance to the King in the same way as soldiers swore allegiance as they were not the King's Army and therefore had to pledge their loyalty to the sovereign. Various regiments were raised by the nobility who were then pledged to the King with an oath of allegiance. The title Royal originally only applied to the King's navy but in the course of time it was extended to various regiments and organizations as a mark of the sovereign's patronage

johnjames06
14th January 2011, 23:02
Hi, I do'nt think RN sailors have ever sworn allegiance, I certainly did'nt, my allegiance was always to my shipmates, John (Thumb)

donald h
14th January 2011, 23:15
I certainly didn`t have to, and I hadn`t heard of any of my contemporaries doing so either.
Donald

sparkie2182
14th January 2011, 23:35
All persons enlisting in the British Army and the Royal Marines are required by the Army Act 1955 to attest to the following oath or equivalent affirmation:

“I… swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and of the generals and officers set over me. So help me God.”

No oath of allegiance is sworn by members of the Royal Navy, which is actually maintained by royal prerogative, or by Royal Marines officers, who unlike their Army counterparts are not enlisted before they are commissioned.

Non-Commissioned Royal Marines swear an oath of allegiance.

I hope this helps.

charles henry
15th January 2011, 15:36
A few years ago I tried to join the Legion in Canada. Then I found that I had to swear allegience to the queen. After due consideration I walked out of the ceremony. I certainly owe Canada for allowing me to obtain a good life, but I have never received ANYTHING from the queen who did not even have the common decency to have her title changed to a legitimate one.
Not meant to stirr the pot, just a true comment
de chas

Kinnie
15th January 2011, 15:57
"Not meant to stirr the pot".
Not much!

tigercub33
15th January 2011, 16:09
i never jioned any of the armed services just the merchant service, but on a few occasions i can rember my dad saying that he took the kings shilling,but he never said anything about taking the oath of allegiance

johnjames06
15th January 2011, 17:27
(EEK)Sparkie 2182, Are you absolutely sure about that?. I thought that Royal Marines were members of the Royal navy and came under the same rules, but hey what do I know?. Regards John.

sparkie2182
15th January 2011, 17:52
The preface of a book about Peter Rhodes.......ex Royal Marine.

"His dedication to the Royal Marine Corps and the protection of Crown and Country is second to none, and the solemn Oath of Allegiance he undertook upon joining the Corps is kept permanently close to his heart. In this gripping tale of adventure, conflict and engagements (both military and personal) we follow Rhodes as he moves up the ranks and learns new skills, earning many medals along the way.Posted to Malaysia and the Mediterranean, our hero comes up against hostile enemies of all kinds.

Also an interesting piece about a member of the Corps in more ancient times.............

http://www.glosgen.co.uk/families/ajrecord.htm

flag deck
15th January 2011, 20:31
As I recall the Royal Navy has always been under the command of the Sovereign, right from its very inception, whereas Army Regiments were originally raised by Dukes and other noblemen, on an as and when required basi8s. This stemmed from the feudal concept of fief, in which a lord was obliged to raise a certain quota of men-at-arms for the King's service, in return for his rights to the land.
And I believe that it followed on from the Act of Union that both Scottish Regiments and English Regiments then became obliged to swear an oath of alligence directly to the united Kingdom's Monarch, rather than personally to their Colonel.
(At this time the 'Royal Marines' were still the Duke of York and Albany's Maritime Regiment of Foot).
I can't really say why the RAF swear an oath of alligence, but I presume this simply follows the practice of their forerunner, the Royal Flying Corp. In any we all know that the Crabs don't really have any special customs or traditions - just nasty little habits!

johnjames06
15th January 2011, 21:54
Flag deck, Yes they do have nasty habits, one that comes to mind is shooting down Luftwaffe bombers. I know, I was there when it happened. John. (Thumb)(Thumb)(Thumb)

flag deck
16th January 2011, 13:57
Flag deck, Yes they do have nasty habits, one that comes to mind is shooting down Luftwaffe bombers. I know, I was there when it happened. John. (Thumb)(Thumb)(Thumb)

It must have been a very powerful image for you as a nipper to have witnessed such a sight. I remember being a schoolboy in East Kent during the time when the Battle of Britain film was being shoot. Even without the fear and drama of it being authentic combat, it was nevertheless a very exciting sight to see Sptifires, Hurricanes, Messerschmitt 109's and Heinkel bombers filling the skies above our heads whilst locked in mock dogfights - God bless the Few who actually did it for real in 1940.
And returning to the subject of the thread, I wonder how many Battle of Britain pilots actually swore an oath of alligiance? 2,340 allied pilots took part, and of these 294, or 12.5%, were from non-dominion/colonial countries (Polish, Czech, Belge, French, Irish and American) - I presume they were not made to swear allegance to what was for them a foreign monarch.
And neither would the many Fleet Air Arm pilots who either supplemented RAF squadrons or who served in 804 or 808 RN Squadrons have sworn an oath of allegiance either.

BUGGINS
16th January 2011, 16:00
I enlisted in the Army in 1958 I cannot remember the details but I recall being given a shilling by the recruiting officer which he then wanted back. So although I took the Queen`s shilling I was not allowed to keep it

johnjames06
16th January 2011, 16:16
Thats a pity Buggins, in 1958 you could have bought a good pint for a shilling ( 5p). John. (Thumb)(Thumb)

charles henry
16th January 2011, 16:23
"Not meant to stirr the pot".
Not much!

Nobody took the bait, Guess I'm getting old.

regards chas

vickentallen
16th January 2011, 16:26
No queens shilling or oath When I joined the Andrew in 1956 , just a sticky bun in Wendys tea room and a train ticket to Pompy.

Union Jack
17th January 2011, 00:34
When I went to Dartmouth, absolutely no signature, a few shillings a day, and plenty of oaths, but definitely none of the kind to which Ceylon refers!(Thumb)

Jack

eldersuk
17th January 2011, 00:47
Why 'The Andrew?' What's the origin of the term?

Derek

Union Jack
17th January 2011, 00:54
Why 'The Andrew?' What's the origin of the term?

Derek

Either after Lieutenant Andrew Miller, allegedly a very successful press gang officer in the 18th century, or after St Andrew, the patron saint of fishermen and sailors. I say "allegedly" because I seem to recall that Lieutenant Miller's existence has never been confirmed.

Jack

BOB GARROCH
17th January 2011, 07:09
I remember being FORCED by dire threats of a good canning to 'Swear allegiance to the Queen" at primary school.

vickentallen
17th January 2011, 19:16
I think the former..

joebuckham
17th January 2011, 19:55
Why 'The Andrew?' What's the origin of the term?

Derek

a sailor, who had served in the old grey funnel line, told me that he had it on the very best authority that it was named after "andrews liver salts", because they both gave you the shits!!!(Jester)(Jester)

Sister Eleff
17th January 2011, 20:56
... the queen who did not even have the common decency to have her title changed to a legitimate one.
Not meant to stirr the pot, just a true comment
de chas

I am not sure what you mean de chas, how would you like her to be titled?

I joined the British Army in the 60's and don't remember swearing allegiance, I may well have done but obviously it was no great thing and there was no passing out parade either. We were just posted off to our various postings. However, I did swear allegiance when I became an Australian citizen.

johnjames06
17th January 2011, 22:03
Hi, Do'nt understand that one Sister Eleff, Queen sounds alright to me John(Thumb)

cueball44
17th January 2011, 22:36
A few years ago I tried to join the Legion in Canada. Then I found that I had to swear allegience to the queen. After due consideration I walked out of the ceremony. I certainly owe Canada for allowing me to obtain a good life, but I have never received ANYTHING from the queen who did not even have the common decency to have her title changed to a legitimate one.
Not meant to stirr the pot, just a true comment
de chasSaxe-Coburg-Gotha?/ Mountbatten-Windsor?/ Windsor?. Did you want any of these to follow the word Queen?. 'cueball44'

Kinnie
18th January 2011, 08:18
I am not sure what you mean de chas, how would you like her to be titled?


Not wishing to make his silly arugments for him but he tends to witter on about the number 2 in her title.

charles henry
18th January 2011, 15:10
[QUOTE=Sister Eleff;485227]I am not sure what you mean de chas, how would you like her to be titled?

Previous to the existing queen there was only one other Queen Elizabeth, but she only ruled England and was not the monarch of Scotland. Her proper title should have been Queen Elizabeth NOT QE2
Not that it is important but it makes her a "pretender" to the Scottish throne.

There was quite a flap when she was crowned including a bunch of Scottish students(?) who STOLE the stone of scone which normally sits under the throne seat at the investiture of a monarch.

Ahhhh memories

regards Chas

Dickyboy
18th January 2011, 17:09
I promise to my duty to God and the Queen, to help other people at all times, & to obey the Scout Law. The nearest I ever got to making an oath :o

I have signed the Official Secrets Act, If I'd sworn an oath as well, I guess it would have meant that I would have had to be loyal to them, and at the same time keep quiet about anything naughty that she or her government did. To do both would have tied my hands.

Orbitaman
18th January 2011, 17:38
[QUOTE=Sister Eleff;485227]I am not sure what you mean de chas, how would you like her to be titled?

Previous to the existing queen there was only one other Queen Elizabeth, but she only ruled England and was not the monarch of Scotland. Her proper title should have been Queen Elizabeth NOT QE2
Not that it is important but it makes her a "pretender" to the Scottish throne.

There was quite a flap when she was crowned including a bunch of Scottish students(?) who STOLE the stone of scone which normally sits under the throne seat at the investiture of a monarch.

Ahhhh memories

regards Chas

At the Queens 'Coronation' not investiture, Her Majesty assumed the official title "Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith,Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Merioneth, Baroness Greenwich,Duke of Lancaster, Lord of Mann, Duke of Normandy, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Sovereign of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Sovereign of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Sovereign of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Sovereign of the Distinguished Service Order, Sovereign of the Order of Merit, Sovereign of the Imperial Service Order, Sovereign of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Sovereign of the Order of the Companions of Honour, Sovereign of the Royal Victorian Order, Sovereign of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem."

Scotland, being a conquered nation, takes the monarch's name of the conquering nation - England(Jester)

charles henry
18th January 2011, 19:45
[QUOTE=charles henry
Scotland, being a conquered nation, takes the monarch's name of the conquering nation - England(Jester)

Quite an impressive list of titles but I never realised that Scotland had ever been "conquered". Even the Romans didnt manage that (Probably due to the heavy rain and they didn't know how to swim).

Even when Mary Queen of Scots was in effect murdered by Elizabeth the rule of Scotland went to James (Or was it John). Anyway, the English ruler Queen Elizabeth probably had her hands full killing off her own titled subjects. She was indeed a busy woman.

The highland clearances were certainly a massive show of strength by the Sassenachs which certainly did much to weaken the Scottish
lines, but hardly a conquerance (If there is such a word)(If there isnt there should be.....)

Scots wha hae and all that
de chas

captain61
19th January 2011, 16:01
[QUOTE=Dickyboy;485446]I promise to my duty to God and the Queen, to help other people at all times, & to obey the Scout Law. T


Now I remember my cub scout oath...But I cant remember the oath I did when I joined the RAF but we did one


Stephen

joebuckham
19th January 2011, 16:39
.

The highland clearances were certainly a massive show of strength by the Sassenachs which certainly did much to weaken the Scottish
lines, but hardly a conquerance (If there is such a word)(If there isnt there should be.....)

Scots wha hae and all that
de chas


chas sorry to disagree with you but the bulk of the evictions were the work of gentrified clan chiefs looking to make a fast buck, to support their new lifestyles and bonny faux chateaux, by increasing the earning power of the land by introducing sheep raising and grazing

tigercub33
19th January 2011, 16:59
at the mention of the word Sassenachs, every one thinks of the English,the word does in fact reffer to a scotsman living in the low lands of scotland, ie Edinburgh,Glasgow,Kilmarnock,Motherwell not an english man tigercub33 bill

joebuckham
19th January 2011, 19:38
at the mention of the word Sassenachs, every one thinks of the English,the word does in fact reffer to a scotsman living in the low lands of scotland, ie Edinburgh,Glasgow,Kilmarnock,Motherwell not an english man tigercub33 bill

i was aware of the meaning of the word sassenach, and it does include the english,but it doesnt alter the fact that it was mainly the clan chiefs that removed their fellow scots from their place on the land.(Thumb)

Derek Roger
19th January 2011, 20:21
[QUOTE=Sister Eleff;485227]I am not sure what you mean de chas, how would you like her to be titled?

Previous to the existing queen there was only one other Queen Elizabeth, but she only ruled England and was not the monarch of Scotland. Her proper title should have been Queen Elizabeth NOT QE2
Not that it is important but it makes her a "pretender" to the Scottish throne.

There was quite a flap when she was crowned including a bunch of Scottish students(?) who STOLE the stone of scone which normally sits under the throne seat at the investiture of a monarch.

Ahhhh memories

regards Chas

I met Ian Hamilton ( of the Stone of Destiny / Scone ) at Kenmore while fishing with friends . He borrow some waders and a rod from me and proceeded wade out until he was over the top ; he appeared to be snorkeling . Went to the Pub and he later joined us ; then proceeded to turn down the waders covering the bar floor with water . The barman Archie who was usually quite strict said no problem Mr Hamilton I' dry up later . Archie then clued us in as to who Hamilton was . We had a great night where he told us the story of the " Stone " and finished up by saying the original was still in Scone and the one returned was a fake .

He then said he was on his Honeymoon so had to take his leave and the same time invited us to his Suite for a night cap . His Bride lying in bed reading a book was ill amused .


Cheers Derek

PS He always referred to the Queen as Queen "Betty " which I thought a little irreverend .

charles henry
20th January 2011, 15:09
, by increasing the earning power of the land by introducing sheep raising and grazing

My God, live and learn,
so that is whey there were so many sheep in the highlands, I had a wrong impression since I once asked a little boy where his mother was and he replied
Ah havenae got a maaaaama

Best I could do at short notice.....

chas