Question WHY?

Lifeboat1721
4th March 2008, 20:23
When you watch a program on the TV do so called Radio opps say Over and Out?

I was always bought up that it is Over to you and Out meaning to terminate a transmission .

So you can't hand Over the Mike and Terminate at the same time.

Ian

STRAWBERRY
4th March 2008, 20:28
quite right, I get so annoyed when you hear it in films and other programmes, my wife get annoyed also, because she's fed up of hearing me complain about it. Andy "Strawberry" Straw... OUT!

Sister Eleff
4th March 2008, 23:06
You are right Ian, I use the radio quite often in a rescue capacity. When we are training newbies; once they get over their nerves they want to "roger, wilco, over & out". (EEK) If anyone slips up it's heard all over the area and that person is the butt of a few jokes. They soon learn to "copy that/over/out" :)

K urgess
5th March 2008, 00:02
Section 154 of the Handbook for Radio Operators -
"The end of work between two stations is indicated by each
station adding the word "OUT" (or VA spoken as VICTOR
ALPHA in case of language difficulties) at the end of its last
reply."

Since the last word is previously stipulated to be OVER then the last words would be OVER and OUT.
In morse we always sent AR VA. Which is the morse equivalent of over and end of transmission.

Roger is the old ROMEO and acknowledges receipt. Wilco comes from the same era and means received perfectly.

trotterdotpom
5th March 2008, 00:12
"Roger" is simply a carry over from the old phonetic alphabet. ABle, Baker, Charlie, etc. I think it was intended to be taken over by the new "Romeo" but that didn't seem to take off (I'm sure I read that in some Radiospeak handbook but could be wrong).

One that bugged me was the American use of "Come Back" instead of "Over".

We use radios extensively at work and the Number One annoying thing is people who call using their own callsign first - grrrrrrr!

10-4, good buddies.

John T.

trotterdotpom
5th March 2008, 00:14
"Wilco comes from the same era and means received perfectly."

Fubar, you got in before me! I though WILCO meant "Will Comply".

John T.

K urgess
5th March 2008, 00:16
You may be right JT.
That was from dim and distant race memory so I could have my wires crossed again. [=P]

sparkie2182
5th March 2008, 00:17
wilco indicates understanding of an instruction.....agreement.....and compliance.......that is to say, proceeding to comply.

it does not figure in marine communications except in matters relating to surface/air........specially helicopter ops.

the c.a.a. helicopter communications certificate course makes quite a lot of this..... as it is the one phrase featured in every w.w.2 film featuring thr r.a.f..........and the exact meaning is often misunderstood, although everyone thinks they know......:)

trotterdotpom
5th March 2008, 00:46
Helicopters have their own phonetic alphabet, for instance "W" is wokka wokka.

John T.

sparkie2182
5th March 2008, 01:01
i think one means.........

"wogga wogga"

:)

Tai Pan
5th March 2008, 15:56
The precision of CW. There is not alternative to VA. didnt have phone in my day.

Hugh MacLean
5th March 2008, 18:00
In naval comms, Over and Out is NEVER used - bad procedure.
Regards

Moulder
5th March 2008, 18:47
.........
In morse we always sent AR VA. Which is the morse equivalent of over and end of transmission..........



I always thought K was the morse equivalent of 'over' - AR indicated the end of a part of the transmission but comms would remain open until VA.

SK was used by old Communist Bloc Countries and neighbours instead of VA.

Steve.
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Ron Stringer
5th March 2008, 19:31
Steve,

Since the morse combination of dots and dashes was the same and sent as a single character (i.e. without a gap between the two letters), how did they differentiate between VA (...- .-) and SK (... -.-)?

K urgess
5th March 2008, 19:34
Yeah but you wouldn't send K then VA or at least I never did.
It was always AR VA and then dots at each other until someone gave up. [=P]

Moulder
5th March 2008, 21:26
Steve,

Since the morse combination of dots and dashes was the same and sent as a single character (i.e. without a gap between the two letters), how did they differentiate between VA (...- .-) and SK (... -.-)?

Hi Ron,

A definite gap was inserted by the Eastern Bloc operators to form the signal SK - and was (is) easily readable as such.

Same morse dots/dashes - same meaning - but, different letters.

Cheers,

Steve.
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Moulder
5th March 2008, 21:31
Yeah but you wouldn't send K then VA or at least I never did.
It was always AR VA and then dots at each other until someone gave up. [=P]

I didn't send the combination VA at all during my time at sea - not even when working the Japanese stations who had a tendency to use it.

All other end of working was the usual TU SU GN EE etc.

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K urgess
5th March 2008, 22:20
Most common use I remember was when sending OBS CQ with some emphasis on the dashes in VA.
Funnily enough I never used any of the 73 or 88 greetings or whatever they were.
I sent my last message by morse professionally over 30 years ago and haven't really thought about it since so most of this is dredging the last drops out of the memory banks.
Bound to have some corruption in there. [=P]

Gareth Jones
6th March 2008, 02:45
As far as merchant ships are concerned the operating procedures whether R/T or W/T are internationally agreed. The are designed to assist operators of differing nationalities and languages to communicate.

Wilco, Roger etc never appeared in the operators handbook I learned procedures from. Why say roger when you can say received ? When in your MN career did you find the need to say "Will Comply" on R/T. I would suggest saying "OK".

I cannot imagine for example Scheveningen Radio using these meaningless phrases when working a Greek ship !

I know little about British Military Radio procedures but can only guess these words have some special implied meaning which I dont understand, or,
they have a movie origin offering pseudo technical terms which the audience can understand and yet imply technical competence to the onscreen character.

I spent a number of years working in GPO coast stations and use of such words was very much frowned on as being unofficial jargon which offered no benefit, only the oportunity for confusion. The emphasis was to use simple everyday english, especially so when working foreign ships on R/T.

King Ratt
6th March 2008, 09:28
I remember that ending a QSO was, as already mentioned by Moulder, TU SU etc and if the coast station finished with a VA, it usually meant that you had upset him. There were no Dit Dits after that.

jaydeeare
6th March 2008, 14:16
On my Navigation Course at College, each message on the light was always finished with AR VA.

Messages were always started AAA AAA.

When I started Morse on my Sparks Course, the other lads were suprised that when I always started and finished with those.

K urgess
6th March 2008, 17:36
I suppose it comes down to what you were taught at college about procedures.
Then what your chief said on your first trip when you actually had to go live for the first time.
Then both of those modified by habits you got into as time went by.
I'll bet none of us worked exactly the same way and none of us followed the "bible" to the letter.

Moulder
6th March 2008, 17:54
Kris,

I agree there ..... we all learnt the theory the way it was taught in order to get the 'ticket'.
Then we were guided by our first boss - then probably led by what we heard on 500 - and developed from that.

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mikeg
6th March 2008, 20:55
"Wilco comes from the same era and means received perfectly."

Fubar, you got in before me! I though WILCO meant "Will Comply".

John T.

WILCO definately means 'Will Comply' and is still current in commercial aviation terminology.

Mike

M29
10th March 2008, 21:52
"Roger" is simply a carry over from the old phonetic alphabet. ABle, Baker, Charlie, etc. I think it was intended to be taken over by the new "Romeo" but that didn't seem to take off (I'm sure I read that in some Radiospeak handbook but could be wrong).

One that bugged me was the American use of "Come Back" instead of "Over".

We use radios extensively at work and the Number One annoying thing is people who call using their own callsign first - grrrrrrr!

10-4, good buddies.

John T.

John
Once trained a group of Police Divers for their VHF Restricted Radio Certs.
They had great trouble because Police radio procedures are opposite to ours in this respect.

Alan

JimC
10th March 2008, 23:19
Some of you older hands might remember the following as taught for the MOT exams:
General Call AAs......
Answering T.T.T etc...
Space II
Break BT
Erase E.E.E.etc
Repeat UD
All after AA
All before AB
Message ends AR
From DE
You are correct C
Repeat back G
Message received R
Word received T
Bad light w.w.w...etc
INtnl Code Groups PRB

It's all there chaps and can be verified from Brown's Signal Reminder (all methods) price two shillings or 10p in funny money.

JIm C.

ddraigmor
10th March 2008, 23:57
Used the VHF a lot at sea and on the lifeboat and even military UHF when with the ex RAF ASR launches. No-one ever said 'Roger' unless it was a comment about any WRAF bods we had aboard (!) and I NEVER ever heard 'Over and out' or 'Roger' It was always 'Out' or 'CON firm' or 'A- Firm'.

Having said that, we had a young deckhand with us who I made the mistake of handing the VHF to while under a Wessex of SARTU. We had hand helds early on - a mistake! I was on the pilot's side, head to wind in a Pacific type RIB and giving it up look at the wheel and then ahead and up and ahead (etc) formating on the clattering yellow monster above me while the winchie went up and down like a yo-yo. Every so often we'd need to break off and run downwind. The radio call was always 'Sierra Romeo Delta One Two One (or whatever callsign they were using at the time) . RIB One will break off to starboard on your signal. Over'. And they would say (in that curious military tone) 'A-firm Rib One. On my command - break - break - break...' and off we'd shear and run downwind to the next plot. All conversation was kept to the bare minimum.

Alas, this youngster was trained on CB...and it was only after we'd ended the ex and I was talking to the pilot that he asked me to tell 'Rubber Ducky' that whilst he appreciated levity in his job, being told that we were going to 'put the pedal to the metal and catch him on the flip flop' was not exactly pukka.......! Needless to say we got throat mics after that and the Cox'n did the radio calls!

Fun days!

Jonty

trotterdotpom
11th March 2008, 01:03
Hi Ron,

A definite gap was inserted by the Eastern Bloc operators to form the signal SK - and was (is) easily readable as such.

Same morse dots/dashes - same meaning - but, different letters.

Cheers,

Steve.
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The "SK" sound of "VA" of the Commie countries may have been an affectation by them in the same way that a lot of British R/Os sent an "R", meaning "received" as "dit-dahdit - there must have been a lot of foreigners wondering: "What is this EN shi*t?"

As already mentioned, VA was rarely sent except at the end of blind transmissions of weather, etc. Between operators, VA usually meant "F*** off"!

John T.

Chief Engineer's Daughter
11th March 2008, 05:38
In naval comms, Over and Out is NEVER used - bad procedure.
Regards

Exactly Hugh! In Coastguard comms to. Shudder when somebody says "over and out".

Ron Stringer
11th March 2008, 11:13
Used the VHF a lot at sea and on the lifeboat and even military UHF when with the ex RAF ASR launches. No-one ever said 'Roger' unless it was a comment about any WRAF bods we had aboard (!) and I NEVER ever heard 'Over and out' or 'Roger' It was always 'Out' or 'CON firm' or 'A- Firm'.

At the Libyan oil port (?) of Ras Lanuf (where you anchored and pulled up a pipeline from the seabed to load) the pilots were all American. The one we always seemed to get continually smoked a pipe filled with vanilla-flavoured tobacco. Sickly sweet smell that hung around for ages. The oil company operated their own comms systems at the shore terminal and along the pipelines, as well as the port radio service. All maintained by an English engineer called Roger, who had a very English accent. The Americans found the combination of his accent, and his name, very amusing.

He would carry out radio checks and call the pilots in turn. To a man they would all answer, "Roger-roger, Roger." Then they would break up laughing.

Small things amuse if you are stuck out in Libya, I suppose.

ddraigmor
11th March 2008, 11:26
I used to hear Jeddah Port Radio in the wee small hours when on anchor watch out there wreck clearing in the late '70s and early 80's. The operator had a very clipped and precise English accent. Very officious though!

Jonty

Moulder
11th March 2008, 11:46
........ in the same way that a lot of British R/Os sent an "R", meaning "received" as "dit-dahdit - there must have been a lot of foreigners wondering: "What is this EN shi*t?"
.........

John T.

Hi John,

You're right there - what you've just highlighted was the operators ability to put emphasis and character into their morse so that it was, infact, not just a series of dots and dashes equating to letters but it also had meaning and expression.

Steve.
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RayJordandpo
11th March 2008, 11:51
I sailed with an offshore surveyor who was ex RN. He had us all in stitches whe he recalled a story of a naval surveying job he was was on around the Dover area. Apparently the quick way back to base was under a bridge but the safest way was to go round. He got a call from his boss saying something like. "I want you to take the landrover to Dover over" He replied "Is that under the bridge or over over" Reply "that will be under over or if it is not safe over over" reply "Wilco, landrover to Dover over , under over or over over" The converstion went on for about an hour until his boss finally stated just get the bleeding thing back to base.
A friend of mine is a fire officer. He once got called out to a stable block on a farm that was in danger of falling down. After making the building safe he called back to headquarters "The stable that was ustable has now been made stable over"