Blast Injection Diesel Engines

ken dag
22nd March 2008, 12:35
The Engineers who sailed with this type of engine are a dying breed.
What were the 'trials & tribulations' of this type of engine ?
regards (Cloud) ken dag

jimmys
22nd March 2008, 13:17
The accident to the Reina del Pacifico at Belfast was really serious.
She had blast injection engines.
I have been involved in engine repairs on them but never sailed with them.
Nineteen thirties engines.

regards

albatross1923
4th July 2008, 21:24
The Engineers who sailed with this type of engine are a dying breed.
What were the 'trials & tribulations' of this type of engine ?
regards (Cloud) ken dag

HELLO KEN
I THINK YOU WILL FIND THE INFORMATION YOU REQUIRE IN THIS WEB

http;//www.taylormade.com.au/Marine/news/MarineNews0508.pdf
scroll down to page4 HOW IT USE TO BE
YOURS ALBTROSS 1923

Duncan112
5th July 2008, 11:23
The Internal Fire Museum in Ceredigion, Wales have a running single cylinder Sulzer blast injection engine. They are running it every day this year for the 100 th anniversary of Diesels patent - links below

http://www.internalfire.com/

http://www.internalfire.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=138

The museum also has the original engines out of Balmoral, Paul the owner/curator is very informative and a true engineer - found out I was at school with him when I was talking to his wife.

Whilst looking at the youtube links found this one which may cause some small amusement -

Duncan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaE9pQ3MuIk&feature=related

Steve Hodges
6th July 2008, 18:33
I seem to remember a single cylinder blast injection engine lurking in the basement at Poplar Technical College. Can any other former Poplar alumni confirm? It was about WW1 vintage I believe, wonder if it was preserved.

spongebob
10th July 2008, 12:23
I have recollections of engineers a lot older than me talking with 'fear' about some of the old blast injection engined ships . I seem to recall the Union Co's Aorangi was one and perhaps NZSCo's Orari was another

R736476
13th July 2008, 16:44
I seem to remember from my cadetship days that Blast Injection jobs were converted to Solid Injection by the Archouloff(?) Method (or something like that!). Anyone any recollection of this and what it entailed?
Regards,
Alex

jimmys
17th July 2008, 14:51
I seem to remember from my cadetship days that Blast Injection jobs were converted to Solid Injection by the Archouloff(?) Method (or something like that!). Anyone any recollection of this and what it entailed?
Regards,
Alex

Hi Alex,

Never heard your name Archouloff. There is an Ackroyd Stewart method uses a hot bulb. It was an alternative to the blast injection and may have been used to convert engines. It was before my time. There is a lot written about this method. Have a wee look and see if it jogs the old memory.

regards
jimmys

Jim S
17th July 2008, 15:37
Archaouloff Fuel Injection System - I believe this was a system that used the compression from the engine cylinder to operate a fuel pump. With a compression pressure of 500 psi an injection pressure of 5000 psi could be achieved. Basically there was no need for a camshaft to drive fuel pumps.
I have no experience of the type, however Blue Funnel used this system on Harland - B&W opposed piston engines on DEMODOCUS built in 1955 and her sisters. This was a development of the system first used in ALCINOUS of 1947.
Perhaps any Blue Funnel engineers may like to educate us on the system and their experiences.
Mr A.G Arnold then Chief Superintendent Engineer of Alfred Holt wrote a paper "Some Experiences in Vessels with Two-stroke Cycle Harland & Wolff Opposed Piston Diesel Engines using Boiler Oil" that described the main engines of the BELLEROPHON Class of nine ships and that of the tenth and subsequent ships known as DEMODOCUS Class.

jimmys
17th July 2008, 15:55
Archaouloff Fuel Injection System - I believe this was a system that used the compression from the engine cylinder to operate a fuel pump. With a compression pressure of 500 psi an injection pressure of 5000 psi could be achieved. Basically there was no need for a camshaft to drive fuel pumps.
I have no experience of the type, however Blue Funnel used this system on Harland - B&W opposed piston engines on DEMODOCUS built in 1955 and her sisters. This was a development of the system first used in ALCINOUS of 1947.
Perhaps any Blue Funnel engineers may like to educate us on the system and their experiences.
Mr A.G Arnold then Chief Superintendent Engineer of Alfred Holt wrote a paper "Some Experiences in Vessels with Two-stroke Cycle Harland & Wolff Opposed Piston Diesel Engines using Boiler Oil" that described the main engines of the BELLEROPHON Class of nine ships and that of the tenth and subsequent ships known as DEMODOCUS Class.

Hi Jims,

I sailed on those ships in Blue Flue in the sixties with this system.

I dont think it was on the go in blast injection time.

regards
jimmys

R736476
17th July 2008, 17:30
[QUOTE=Jim S;231958]Archaouloff Fuel Injection System - I believe this was a system that used the compression from the engine cylinder to operate a fuel pump. With a compression pressure of 500 psi an injection pressure of 5000 psi could be achieved. Basically there was no need for a camshaft to drive fuel pumps.
QUOTE]

Jim,
The Archouloff method may well have been as you described but was probably introduced in the 1930s.
Blast Injection was inherently dangerous as the air used was at 800-900 psi which is why there was the move to convert to solid injection.
I wonder when the last Blast Injection engine went out of service?
Regards,
Alex

jimmys
17th July 2008, 19:30
[QUOTE=Jim S;231958]Archaouloff Fuel Injection System - I believe this was a system that used the compression from the engine cylinder to operate a fuel pump. With a compression pressure of 500 psi an injection pressure of 5000 psi could be achieved. Basically there was no need for a camshaft to drive fuel pumps.
QUOTE]

Jim,
The Archouloff method may well have been as you described but was probably introduced in the 1930s.
Blast Injection was inherently dangerous as the air used was at 800-900 psi which is why there was the move to convert to solid injection.
I wonder when the last Blast Injection engine went out of service?
Regards,
Alex

Hi All,

I sailed on the Achilles. Antenor and Dolius with this type of fuel pump. There was no blast injection involved on these engines.

regards
jimmys

doric
18th July 2008, 07:46
I sailed as 2nd Elect Engr., on Taranaki for Two voyages, with the Shaw Savill Lines, she was blast injection, built 1927?, hard working ship, but a very happy one in the Engineering Department. Regards, Terence Williams. R538301.

BERRIET
22nd July 2008, 16:02
Good afternoon,

in the french Messageries , we had in the early 30's , two mix cargo vessels ( the OREGON and the SAGITTAIRE ) built in 1929 in Germany ; they were fitted each with two two cycle , double acting , 5 cylinders , blast injection MAN engine , directely reversible .They were scrapped in the late 50's .As some informations strawed from the magazines and periodics of the company , both ships had always troubles with driven injectors needles of their atomisers ( quite fragile ) , but not from their 3 stages , engine driven compressor .they ( of course suffered ) a lot fron the piston rods that had tendencies to bend .All the history of these ship have , most of the time , at least one line saying : " left Marseille harbor , but had to come back 4 hours later due to engine trouble "( ....) .And this frm 1930 up to 1955...
Also , some ww1 subs still in use in the French navy , in 1940 , ere powered with medium speed 2 stroke Sulzer engines , with blast injection ( an air compressor was driven by the engine , as well as the scavening pump) ; and in some books , one can read " resetting of the injection needle vaves " or " had to stop std engine to fix leaks on the compressor high pressure valves ".
some photos are available on the net , if you use polymeta , and write " blast injections engines "
i know also that B and W used this for their 4 stroke , double acting , 10 cylinders , twin engines fitted in 1927 on the ship GRIMPSHOLM .But i got no infos about it , except that in the engineering galeery here , one pic of it exist .

Hillview
29th July 2008, 11:37
My first ship in Bibbys (early sixties) had twin Sulzer engines with gas powered injection pumps the archilouf system. The oiriginal blast air compressors were removed from the front of each engine.
The gas powered fuel pumps were a good idea but as the gas pistons kept gumming up and no lubricating oil at that time capable, they were a nightmare removing the piston units and lubricating the piston was done in hot conditions on top of the cylinder heads.

JET
31st July 2008, 11:51
The N.Z.S.C. Orari was converted to the Archouloff injection system and the gas pistons would gum up and stop operating particularly during manoevring. If you belted it hard on the side of the body and in the right spot it would start to operate again. Two engineers were deployed on the top platform to 'fix them' whenever arriving or departing port.

Regards John

billyboy
31st July 2008, 12:04
Ah, bring back the trusty weir pump lads...LOL

Ghost
14th August 2008, 00:51
Alex,
Safety was never a major concern with ship owners as I recall. The main reason for the adoption of solid injection was economy, ie saving the ship owner money.
More reasons:-
1) A saving in weight, light spraying fittings instead of the air compressor and attendant piping.
2) A saving in space, no air compressors, no H.P. or L.P. coolers and attendant piping.
3) More money saving on the expensive to install and maintain air compressor, resulting in an inital lower cost engine.
4) The best fuel economy of any diesel engine known. (Vickers engine.)
5) No blast action on pistons, which had a tendency to crack the piston.
6) Better air starting. Less starting air needed, therefore smaller compressors. Save more money.

Not that I'm an expert by any means of the imagination. Just happen to have read about it.

Dotart
24th December 2008, 21:17
I served my time in Cardiff Dry Docks in the early fifties, Blast Injection engines were very much in use,high on the list were B&W. Engine rooms lacked almost all the creature comforts, but to see and hear those engines,was one hell of an experience. I remember the Athel boats and the King Line. It was a time to experience, Triple Expansion.Steam Turbines, the American T2 tankers,built for one trip,if they were lucky.Double Acting B&W,opposed Doxfords etc etc.
Showing my age I have a lot of nostalgic memories of that period of Marine Engineering

cubpilot
25th December 2008, 11:26
I only came across blast injection engines once and that was when working for Sulzer. Took a day off work to visit the generator station in the Dennis Motor Works in Guildford. This was about 1980 and the factory still used the engines that were installed between 1913 and 1919. The order should have been completed in 1914 but a small disturbance occurred. the outstanding engines were on the way and ended up in a railway siding for 4 years.
In 1980 they were probably the oldest diesel engines still in use.
I passed the place in the 1990s and could see no signs of the engine shed amongst the new business park so assume all was torn down and destroyed.
They were open crankcase A frame engines and very similar to the engines that were installed in the first ocean going motor ship. first impression was that they were steam recip and they also ran with little noise.

Hilltop
25th December 2008, 22:41
For anyone interested in the Archaouloff fuel injection system they should have a look at chapter 3 of C.C. Pounders "Diesel Engine Principles and Practice". This gives a pretty full description of the system, both for conversion from blast injection and also as original equipment. In the UK the equipment was manufactured by Wilson & Kyle of Brentford who I understand no longer make fuel injection equipment. The equipment appears to have been made under licence from Kockums of Malmo, Sweden who held the patent.

At www.rakaia.co.uk/downloads/diomed-brochure/pdf you can download a Blue Funnel brochure about the "DIOMED", built in 1947, and engined by Kincaids of Greenock with a double acting B&W engine fitted with a Wilson & Kyle fuel system

Brian Cloke
27th December 2008, 19:30
The John I Jacobs ship MV Rosewood which was built in 1947 had originally as far as I can remember Blast Injection. When I was on her in the early fifties she was using solid injection on her four cylinder Doxford.
Cheers.
Brian.

steve2
28th December 2008, 12:21
Hi Ken-
Never heard the name Archauloff system but I sailed with Gas Pumps on B.F. Vessel Elpenor. She was a 7-cylinder H&W B&W. For those who don't know the principle it was as follows:-
The fuel was metered by a chain driven, seven chamber, fuel pump metering block. This delivered the fuel via a non-return valve to each units spring loaded accumulator. The fuel was then retained here until required.
Now the gas pump itself contained a dual diameter piston. The lower and larger piston was ported to the combustion chamber of the unit via a type of klinger cock. The upper chamber was connected to the fuel injector again via a n/r valve.
As the main piston decended and scavenge began, the pressure in the cylinder and therefore the gas pump lower chamber decreased. When low enough the spring pressure in the accumulator forced the fuel throught another n/r valve into the top chamber of the pump. As the cylinder-unit piston began to rise again then pressure under the larger piston began to rise. Due to the differential in pump piston sizes the fuel pressure above rose until it reached the fuel injectors opening pressure. (in the Elpenors case 18,000psi.) The cycle then repeats
System was excellent when in good condition and the engine could be balanced quickly- To adjust early or late ignition and therefore combustion pressure, then the klinger cock was either nudged further open or shut to allow pressure in the pump to build up earlier or later. To adjust fuel then there was a cut off on the primary chain driven fuel pump.
Trouble was if a fuel valve began to dribble then combustion products entered the gas pump and it would start siezing up- hence big copper hammers on the top flat during stand-bys. The Klinger cock would also start to glow! Also if one off the myriad N/R valves began to leak then a unit would start to fail.
Hope this was of some intrest- have I passed my EK's.
Steve2

Jim S
28th December 2008, 15:58
Steve,
The fuel injection system that you have described so well is the Archaouloff System as fitted to a number of Blue Funnel vessels fitted with Harland & Wolff opposed piston (eccentric type).
Mr A.G Arnold the then Chief Superintendent Engineer of Alfred Holt & Co.
submitted a fairly lengthy paper to the Institute of Marine Engineers in 1953.
Titled "Some Experiences in Vessels Equipped with Two-Stroke Cycle Harland and Wolff Opposed Piston Engines Using Boiler Oil."
The first nine vessels were referred to as the Bellerophan Class with 7 cylinder engines -Number ten and subsequent ships were known as Demodocas Class and they had 6 cylinder turbo-charged engines.
As built the first three, Bellerophan, Ascanius and Atreus had jerk type fuel pumps these were later converted to the Archaouloff gas operated system that you describe. Interesting that the only scavenge fires experienced were two on Bellerophan and one on Atreus prior to conversion to the gas operated fuel system. The author was of the opinion at the time thaI scavenge fires would be non-existant in future supercharged engines - Kind of wishful thinking. Ithink all the ships also had timed gas operated cylinder lub oil injection - Probably the first types of engine without a camshaft.
There is no mention of fuel injection pressure in the paper - 18,000 psi seems high.

Jim S
1st January 2009, 14:38
Steve,
The fuel injection system that you have described so well is the Archaouloff System as fitted to a number of Blue Funnel vessels fitted with Harland & Wolff opposed piston (eccentric type).
Mr A.G Arnold the then Chief Superintendent Engineer of Alfred Holt & Co.
submitted a fairly lengthy paper to the Institute of Marine Engineers in 1953.
Titled "Some Experiences in Vessels Equipped with Two-Stroke Cycle Harland and Wolff Opposed Piston Engines Using Boiler Oil."
The first nine vessels were referred to as the Bellerophan Class with 7 cylinder engines -Number ten and subsequent ships were known as Demodocas Class and they had 6 cylinder turbo-charged engines.
As built the first three, Bellerophan, Ascanius and Atreus had jerk type fuel pumps these were later converted to the Archaouloff gas operated system that you describe. Interesting that the only scavenge fires experienced were two on Bellerophan and one on Atreus prior to conversion to the gas operated fuel system. The author was of the opinion at the time thaI scavenge fires would be non-existant in future supercharged engines - Kind of wishful thinking. Ithink all the ships also had timed gas operated cylinder lub oil injection - Probably the first types of engine without a camshaft.
There is no mention of fuel injection pressure in the paper - 18,000 psi seems high.

If I may make a minor correction to the above - The date the paper was presented was 1956 not 1953. The fuel injection pressure given on a voyage log of one of the 6 cylinder turbo-charged engines (presumably Demodocus) was in the range of 3300 to 6300 psi
The 7 cylinder non turbo-charged Bellerophon Class were A-Class Mark 3 and comprised of Bellerophon, Ascanius, Atreus, Alcinous, Laomedon. A-Class Mark4 - Adrastus, Eumaeus, Elpenor, Lycaon. The 6 cylinder turbo-charged (or supercharged as Mr Arnold called it) were A-Class Mark 5 and Demodocus, Dolius, Diomed, Antenor (Dymas), Achilles (Dardanus), and Ajax (Deucalion).

GeeM
3rd March 2009, 01:28
Steve

Yes Steve Youre right, I was one of the last cadets to be trained at Poplar Tech and also at the Empson Street annex which im sure you remember. I joined Turnbull Scott as an engineer cadet in 1979 through 1983 and the engine was sitting In the basement. A fearsome looking thing It was and boy could It make some noise. The huge dimensions of the blast air compressor and the cylinder entablature suggested that there were a lot of forces In play Inside that engine. Im still In the marine Industry having had a ten year seagoing career thence as a superintendent for Carnival Cruises and now as a Surveyor for the American Bureau of Shipping. I dont know If the engine was preserved. I would be suprised as I believe the GLC as It was then wanted marine Engineering Education out of there asap and didint bother about any legacy.