Who is responsible

Lifeboat1721
29th March 2008, 23:03
With Modern boats and Modern equipment who is responsible for answering calls on VHF ie Ch 16 (H)

Is it the radio operator who returns the call to Harbour master or is it the Captain on the bridge who picks up the mike.

Is it the radio operator who says "Hi john Red to Red or Green to Green" or is it the Captain.

Ian

surfaceblow
29th March 2008, 23:59
The Mate on watch answers the radio normally. If the Captain is on the bridge while maneuvering then the Captain would answer. After picking up the Pilot then the Pilot would then answer the radio.

Bill Davies
30th March 2008, 00:03
After picking up the Pilot then the Pilot would then answer the radio.

Are you sure about that?????????

Pat Kennedy
30th March 2008, 00:38
Bill,
That would appear to be the case here on the Mersey. I often listen in on my scanner, and once the pilot is aboard, he is the voice of the ship, so to speak.
Pat

Santos
30th March 2008, 00:43
Yes Pat - I have heard the same thing.

Chris.

duquesa
30th March 2008, 00:44
Surfaceblow has stated what in my experience, is the norm.

vasco
30th March 2008, 00:57
Normal circumstances the Officer of the Watch

When the Captain has the con he is supposed to designate a person, usually the OOW. The 'modern' way is the Master is supposed to touch very little but be fed info from the 'bridge team'. This is of course theorical.

All OOW have GMDSS (Radio) licences and on the usual Tanker/Cargo/container vessel there is no radio officer.

If the Pilot is on board, he does usually communicate with other traffic and the VTS, it is up to the OOW/Master to monitor the communication. This is the sensible way. If there is a situation developing, such as the ship ahead losing power, the Pilot discusses the situation with the bridge team.

That was the theoretical way. My experience re-inforces this, though most Masters are happier with a more hands on approach.

A quick google has turned up the following. Alas I cannot supply a link to it.


Puget Sound Harbor Safety and Security Committee

PUGET SOUND HARBOR SAFETY PLAN

STANDARD OF CARE FOR BRIDGE TEAM MANAGEMENT


Introduction

Effective Bridge Team Management (BTM) prevents incidents, accidents, and oil spills by improving communication and situational awareness.

The basic components of the Bridge Team consist of,
• A watch size and structure appropriate to expected operating conditions (i.e., restricted waterways, traffic concentrations, and restricted visibility);
• A watch size and structure that effectively addresses the three primary bridge functions: navigation, collision avoidance, and communication;
• Clear roles and responsibilities for each bridge team member;
• Clear guidelines for internal and external communications;
• Procedures for the bridge team to work with a pilot on board; and
• Voyage planning.

Expectations

While underway in Puget Sound and the Strait of Juan de Fuca, owners, operators, and masters of seagoing ships subject to International Maritime Organization (IMO) Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping (STCW) should ensure that bridge watchstanders:
• Are properly trained in BTM in accordance with the 1995 STCW code;
• Practice effective BTM
• Prepare a voyage plan for transiting the Strait of Juan de Fuca and Puget Sound waters to their final berth or anchorage (and for the outbound transit). Review this plan with the pilot. Modify the plan following discussions with the pilot and/or based on up-to-date information or changing on-scene conditions
• Have a deck watch officer on the bridge at all times capable of effectively communicating in English with the Puget Sound Vessel Traffic Center. When a pilot is on board the pilot will communicate with the Puget Sound Vessel Traffic Center;
• Follow the communication procedures below.

Communication Procedures

• The master should ensure a Bridge Team in full compliance with STCW and VTS English speaking requirements is on the bridge. Upon pilot boarding, advise the pilot which members of the bridge team speak English and discuss how communications between the pilot and the bridge team will be handled.
• The master should discuss the voyage plan with the pilot and inform bridge watch- standers of the pilot’s intentions and special concerns.
• The master or deck watch officer on duty should immediately advise the pilot when, at any point in the transit
- The maneuverability of the vessel has been adversely affected,
- When he or she has information necessary for the safety of the ship’s transit,
- Or when he or she is uncertain of the Pilot’s intentions regarding the ship’s movements.

Hope this helps.

R651400
30th March 2008, 08:33
Nice to see a thread with replies from non R/O's and Radio Room being perused by same.
VHF was in it's infancy when I first went to sea but the old adage surely stands.
Who operates the VHF?
Those with the appropriate qualifications and shipboard by permission of the captain, which obviously includes all VHF qualified pilots.

Bill Davies
30th March 2008, 11:24
Bill,
That would appear to be the case here on the Mersey. I often listen in on my scanner, and once the pilot is aboard, he is the voice of the ship, so to speak.
Pat
So you hear the end result on your scanner! That's interesting. And if it happens on the Mersey it is universal?? Perhaps I am a little sensitive to posts which imply Pilots take control and have an automatic right and the writers post eluded to that. Pilots assist and I long since felt any degree of relaxation when they board. Nothing happens on that bridge without my agreement 'tacit or otherwise'. Ultimately, I'll take the can if sh1t happens.

BA204259
30th March 2008, 11:50
Would it make any difference, Bill, if the pilot was ex-Blue Funnel? (==D) (Jester)

Bill Davies
30th March 2008, 12:00
As long as he was not a Sparkie!!

joebuckham
30th March 2008, 12:26
After picking up the Pilot then the Pilot would then answer the radio.

Are you sure about that?????????

yes bill very sure
when boarded and reported in, on the port working channel, the harbour office would confirm the berth to the pilot. the pilot would then confirm with the bmt , tugs, boatmen et al, the working channel appropriate for the area of the port and when operations commenced this channel would be used, on the pilots portable set, vessels main set left on port working channel so overall situation within the port can still be monitored
progress to the berth reported to the harbour, on port working channel as laid down in harbour regs, by the pilot

why have a dog and bark yourself

Bill Davies
30th March 2008, 12:30
Spoken like a true Pilot, just Joe!

Too many dogs have have landed me in it only to walk away 'scott free'

R651400
30th March 2008, 12:49
As long as he was not a Sparkie!!

Oh dear!

I see the canker has spread from Blue Funnel forum/Blue Funnel Nostalgia thread to the Radio Room.

duquesa
30th March 2008, 12:58
Indeed! I am sitting quietly watching this develop in the usual BD style.(Cloud)

duquesa
30th March 2008, 12:59
That response will produce an equally predictable reply, I have little doubt.

Orbitaman
30th March 2008, 13:45
When I was piloting, I carried out all VHF traffic between the vessel and the terminal during the pilotage, with or without the Masters agreement, 'tacit or otherwise'.

Indeed, the terminal would not speak to anyone of the ship crew once the pilot was on board unless it was an emergency.

This I find to have been the case in a majority of the ports I have visited.

duquesa
30th March 2008, 13:53
Agreed. The simple reason being that once the pilot had arrived on the bridge, though absolutely not in command, he was or at least should have been, "in control". Within his district/ port or whatever, the authority would not have wished to speak to anyone else, Master or otherwise. There was never a more nightmarish situation when a pilot found himself faced with a master who was determined to stamp his authority all over everything come hell or high water.

Lifeboat1721
30th March 2008, 14:11
Thanks guys for the info,

I had a Marine Lic I took it at Fleetwood Nautical college back in the 70's.

But what happens when it's a vessel who doesn't need a Pilot

Ian

joebuckham
30th March 2008, 14:11
bill you seem to have lost the thread completely.
ian asked a simple question about who answered the vhf in various situations, surface blow attempted to give ian an explanation of what normally happens and you have managed to turn it into a rant against a whole section of the maritime fraternity.
i don’t know who to feel the most sympathy for; you who seemed to have been plagued by the most inept pilots in the world, or for the pilots who by the sound of it had to assist you in an atmosphere not at all conducive to the smooth running of the bmt and the safe handling of your vessel.

duquesa
30th March 2008, 14:56
Good post Joebuckham and enough said on that. In reply to Ian's latest I would say that, when no pilot is on board and the vessel is within port limits, it is likely that the master will have a pilotage certificate for that port or an exemption - whatever. In this case the situation is the same - HE is in control and will usually choose to have his hands on the VHF himself. As someone said earlier - why have a dog etc., You will always get some pr*t who feels that conducting a VHF conversation is below him and passes the duty to someone else. That is totally non productive and time wasting.

BA204259
30th March 2008, 14:58
Well, I hope all you pilots (in who's hands I quite happily put my life for several years) were BF trained. Perish the thought that you were from ordinary shipping companies.(Jester) (K)

duquesa
30th March 2008, 15:14
Oh Lord - don't go there! You'll open another can of worms. (==D)

vasco
30th March 2008, 18:13
Duquesa you say You will always get some pr*t who feels that conducting a VHF conversation is below him and passes the duty to someone else. That is totally non productive and time wasting.

I cannot help but agree with you, and it is often the case that the Master will communicate himself.

However, having just done a Bridge Resource Management Course, this is the thing the Master must not do. It is emphasised (as I said in thread 7) that the Master does nothing but be fed info so he is not distracted by routine duties. Obviously, if it involves collision avoidance then he will do, but reporting in etc is supposedly done by a Mate.

In your Occupation I guess you must have seen frequently where the master lets the Pilot do the River, then approaching Berths he takes over, doing the coms, docking and all. At least on smaller ships. Most Masters I have spoke to agree this is the only way to do it but they do rely on the Mate keeping a good check on all that is happening around the ship.

Do this on the BRM course and you are OUT! Privately the lecturers may agree with you, but for 5 days we all have to act unnaturally, but we can have a good chat in the evenings.

duquesa
30th March 2008, 19:12
I know you are absolutely right Vasco. However, as you indicate, what goes on in practice has little bearing on what goes on during a course.

It was always my view that the master of a ship should know it's handling qualities better than a pilot. Unfortunately, many blatantly did not and many more didn't want anything to do with the business.

If any master expressed a desire to berth his own vessel (large or small) nobody would have been happier than me always provided we had agreed on him doing exactly that.

The word pr*t was probably misplaced in my earlier post, but I have no doubt those reading this thread will know exactly what I mean. Takes all sorts!
Cheers.

sparkie2182
30th March 2008, 23:00
in reply to the "as long as it wasnt a Sparkie" jibe..........by the usual suspect.

in the international world of marine radio communications, there would have been no need for a basic question such as this to have been asked....... or the various strands of opinion given.

the responsibilities of all concerned in ANY situation were fully understood and complied with....as much a matter of pride as much as proceedure.

vasco
30th March 2008, 23:21
in reply to the "as long as it wasnt a Sparkie" jibe..........by the usual suspect.

in the international world of marine radio communications, there would have been no need for a basic question such as this to have been asked....... or the various strands of opinion given.

the responsibilities of all concerned in ANY situation were fully understood and complied with....as much a matter of pride as much as proceedure.

The original question was perfectly straightforward and could be asked by anyone interested in the sea. I could see that there was a bit of a storm brewing, hence the reason for my long thread 7. The whole shipping scene is changing now and you would be unpleasantly surprised at how it has deteriorated. Hence the need for all these courses and checklists. They are not what us seafarers want but what charterers are demanding.

Some of us still have pride, and lots of us miss the Sparkies!

sparkie2182
30th March 2008, 23:35
my intention was not to dispute the validity of the question from the questioners point of view....... as you say.....valid and reasonable.

it was more to counter the remark made , which found a less than welcome home with me..... not valid or reasonable.... a radio officer is a radio officer.....a marine pilot is a marine pilot

untill the past couple of years i was involved with marine training and examining, and am more than aware of the deterioration in the seafaring condition on many levels.

the courses mentioned above i have been involved with, and basically, im pleased im out of it.

R651400
31st March 2008, 06:45
Some of us still have pride, and lots of us miss the Sparkies!

Thanks for your sentiments Vasco. Reading Duquesa's thread on releasing the master from the ptt switch to attend to bridge management, makes one wonder how far traditional seafaring has gone down the plughole. When under the "H" flag, just how many people are on the bridge of say a modern container ship? Before it was Pilot, Captain, 3rd Mate, helmsman and if on board a cadet. Is the modern skipper so short staffed, management brainwashed or singularly minded, he cannot handle vhf and break wind at the same time?
I may be biased but had the entire ship-owning fraternity world-wide been gifted with a bit more foresight, there could have been a niche in this modern ship management structure for the R/O. Ship administrator/general factotum with manual radio duties during distress. At least distress calls would be answered by all ships in the vicinity of the incident immediately and to a man, rather than sit on a pc screen or piece of paper for hours until read. Things may have changed but that is the way I saw it when distress traffic arrived via Inmarsat in the early 90's.

vasco
31st March 2008, 07:45
Sparkie2182
'im pleased im out of it.'

I can't wait,I know you understand the frustration.

and

R651400

Thank you. Alas that is the way now. distresses can't be ignored lots of bells luckily. I think back to when shipping companies embraced GMDSS as a safety feature, denying that getting rid of sparkies was cost cutting.So why aren't the mates and Masters paid extra for doing the sparkies job?

My ships frequently have a crew of 8 in and out of port eveyday so you can imagine the fun we have.

Still better go, in serious danger of hi jacking this thread.

surfaceblow
31st March 2008, 07:56
It is still the same Pilot, Captain, 3rd Mate, helmsman when I retired in 2004. In the last ten years I have not seen a cadet on a ship.

GMDS console is on the Bridge with all of its alarms and switches.

A little off the subject, but having worked on contracted USNS ships until the end of 2003 we had a R/O. During my last year we could not get a R/O with a secret clearance. So the company send an extra Mate to help with the communications but he did not have a secret clearance and was not allowed in the radio room. So the Captain took care of the super secret squirrelly stuff. While I had the normal email down loads via Inmarsat. The Sat phone was wired to the ship board phone system so if there was no answer from the bridge it would ring in the Captain's Office then if it was not answered there it would ring in the Chief Engineers Office.

I really missed the R/O when we had to do the Navy messages with all of the addresses and navy formats. The last few R/O's were ex Navy an helped a lot I only had to supply the information and the R/O did the addressing message numbering sequence and format.

Mike S
31st March 2008, 09:19
As a tug master for 30 years I would most sincerely hope that my orders were coming from the Pilot thank you very much.
Most ship's Masters would have little or no knowledge of what a tug can and above all else could NOT do! Whether they have been at sea as Master for all of the 30 years or one I still have had my most terrifying experiences working with either the Navy or Masters working their own vessels on a Pilotage Dispensation.......and yes I do carry a Masters FG certificate.
Stands to reason really, how on earth can a Master of a vessel who has never had any experience of tug work know how they operate.
Oh yes and in the Port of Fremantle and to my knowledge all Australian Ports the Pilot is the voice heard from the vessel once on board unless there is a specific message for or from the Master.
This in no way infringes on the "Masters Orders; Pilots advice" entry in the Deck Log which I sincerely hope is still being entered.........(Smoke)
Hooroo

Dave Wilson
31st March 2008, 14:28
Some real 'heavy hitters' on this thread.

BA204259
31st March 2008, 15:36
Some real 'heavy hitters' on this thread.

Bit cryptic, Dave?

Moulder
31st March 2008, 16:20
I would also expect the Pilot to be more active than the master on the VHF in Japanese, Chinese and Korean ports - amongst many others.

Steve.
(Thumb)

sparkie2182
31st March 2008, 22:37
whilst working onboard a hydrographic survey vessel in a u.k. port, it often happened that a ship was being coaxed into/out of port as i was conducting a survey.
the number of times my crew fell about laughing as the orders on ch12 from pilot to tug were TOTALLY ignored by the tug skippers........who just carried on doing the job their way.

Lifeboat1721
3rd April 2008, 21:10
Thanks guys, But I was mainly in th Uk that I was interested (H)

As I live in Morecambe I can hear Heysham, Barrow, Fleetwood, ports quite easily and of course Liverpool Coastguard.

Regards Ian