Ariel and Taiping china tea race

DURANGO
17th July 2008, 18:05
Could any one please put me onto a decent photo of these two wonderful ship,s, or individual photos would be better, i beleive the Taiping carried more sail than the Ariel i have seen a photo of them but nothing that i can realy work from would very much appreciate any assistance best wishes Dave .

stein
19th July 2008, 15:08
I believe photos are rather scarce. David MacGregor has identified a ship purported to be Sir Lancelot in a photograph belonging to the Peabody Museum of Salem USA as the Ariel. This picture showing the clipper broadside on at the Pagoda anchorage, in what he presumes to be 1869, is reproduced on page 216-17 in 'Fast Sailing ships' (Conway, 1988). If he had been able to trace a photograph of the Taeping, I'm sure he would have published it in one of his books.
I have posted a photograph of painting of mine of the front end of the Ariel in the gallery, unfortunately I seem to have shaken the camera and it is rather blurry.
I thought I had posted Dutton's well known litograph of the race, but I can't find it, so I'll post it now. This might be the best likeness of the Taeping we will ever come across. Regards, Stein.

DURANGO
19th July 2008, 16:54
I believe photos are rather scarce. David MacGregor has identified a ship purported to be Sir Lancelot in the Peabody Museum of Salem USA as the Ariel. This picture showing the clipper broadside on at the Pagoda anchorage, in what he presumes to be 1869, is reproduced on page 216-17 in 'Fast Sailing ships' (Conway, 1988). If he had been able to trace a photograph of the Taeping, I'm sure he would have published it in one of his books.
I have posted a photograph of painting of mine of the front end of the Ariel in the gallery, unfortunately I seem to have shaken the camera and it is rather blurry.
I thought I had posted Dutton's well known litograph of the race, but I can't find, it so I'll post it now. This might be the best likeness of the Taeping we will ever come across. Regards, Stein.
Many thanks Stein much appreciated just what i am looking for best wishes Dave .

DURANGO
28th July 2008, 15:23
Could any one please put me onto a decent photo of these two wonderful ship,s, or individual photos would be better, i beleive the Taiping carried more sail than the Ariel i have seen a photo of them but nothing that i can realy work from would very much appreciate any assistance best wishes Dave . I very much doubt i will get anywhere with this request but you just never know there is so much knowledge floating about on this site that i might just be lucky , i am trying to find out the individual house flags of Taeping and Ariel i was very lucky to have been sent the picture of both ships racing homeward by Stein which has been a great help many thanks

stein
28th July 2008, 19:03
Taeping was launched for Alexander Rodger of Glasgow I read, whether she changed owners before she was wrecked in 1871, I do not know. The Ariel was launched for Shaw, Lowther & Maxton of London, and whether she changed owners before disappearing in 1872 I do not know either, but since MacGregor doesn't mention any ownership changes for any of the ships there probably were none. Now to find the flags. I'll look around.
Shaw, Maxton & Co., I've found. Page 192 in Lubbock's 'China Clippers.' But not much point in posting it if I can't find the other flag? Regards, Stein.

DURANGO
28th July 2008, 21:55
Taeping was launched for Alexander Rodger of Glasgow I read, whether she changed owners before she was wrecked in 1871, I do not know. The Ariel was launched for Shaw, Lowther & Maxton of London, and whether she changed owners before disappearing in 1872 I do not know either, but since MacGregor doesn't mention any ownership changes for any of the ships there probably were none. Now to find the flags. I'll look around.
Shaw, Maxton & Co., I've found. Page 192 in Lubbock's tea clippers. But not much point in posting it if I can't find the other flag? Regards, Stein.

I have to say Stein your a gold mine full of knowledge and even the one flag would be great i realy do appreciate you taking the trouble best wishes Dave .

stein
29th July 2008, 08:54
Hi. Shaw, Maxton flag: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r28/stein_photo/DSC_0001-4.jpg
Taeping with house flag of Rodger: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r28/stein_photo/Taeping.jpg
Lahloo with house flag of Rodger: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r28/stein_photo/Lahloo.jpg This T. G. Dutton lithograph is probably the one catalogued at NMM in Greenwich as PAH8578, (who's got another of Lahloo numbered PAH0682). Since Gibb, Livingstone has a red cross (see first link), one would guess Rodger would have a different colour, but what that would be I can only suggest NMM as a way of finding out.
- Hold on a minute, Gibb, Livingstone & Co may have been agents for Rodger in China, and their flag shown in colour in the first link, may - I'm not at all sure - have been the one Rodger's ships were flying... Rodger didn't own many ships, the one's I've found are Ellen Rodger, Min, Taeping and Lahloo. Here's an entry in a history of Hong Kong: "Gibb, Livingston, which — like Gilmans — may be seen as a smaller yet similar version of Dodwells, is the second oldest (after Jardines) trading firm in Hong Kong. It was founded by two Scotsmen, Thomas Augustus Gibb and William Potter Livingston, in Canton, in 1836. There it occupied one building which served as an office, a warehouse and a residence. The firm imported English cottons and woollens and exported tea and silk. Silver bullion was used as payment. The two founders soon started to diversify into such fields as shirtings, velveteen, leather and tin plate, and acted as agents for a large number of sailing ships. At an early date four Gibbs worked in the firm. Branches were opened in Hong Kong (1841), Amoy and Shanghai. In addition to the import-export trade Gibb Livingston acted as agents for Ben Line steamships, although, unlike Dodwells, it also acquired its own tea clippers. Then, in 1899, it purchased a fleet of steamers which sailed as the Gibb Line."
Still not sure, but I suspect strongly now that the flag shown as belonging to Gibb, Livingstone may be the one the Taeping was flying (when in port, or on portraits - merchantmen didn't do any unnecessary flagging at sea). One reason is that Lubbock in his plate of houseflags would be likely to include the flag flown by the comparatively famous Alexander Rodger ships. And if Gibb, Livingstone owned any crack clippers, they would have been mentioned in MacGregor's 'Tea Clippers', as Alexander Rodger is in the entry for four ships. -That's what I have!
The sail plan of Ariel could be of use if you haven't gotten very far yet: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r28/stein_photo/DSC_0005-1.jpg Regards, Stein.

DURANGO
29th July 2008, 16:49
Hi. Shaw, Maxton flag: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r28/stein_photo/DSC_0001-4.jpg
Taeping with house flag of Rodger: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r28/stein_photo/Taeping.jpg
Lahloo with house flag of Rodger: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r28/stein_photo/Lahloo.jpg This T. G. Dutton lithograph is probably the one catalogued at NMM in Greenwich as PAH8578, (who's got another of Lahloo numbered PAH0682). Since Gibb, Livingstone has a red cross (see first link), one would guess Rodger would have a different colour, but what that would be I can only suggest NMM as a way of finding out.
- Hold on a minute, Gibb, Livingstone & Co may have been agents for Rodger in China, and their flag shown in colour in the first link, may - I'm not at all sure - have been the one Rodger's ships were flying... Rodger didn't own many ships, the one's I've found are Ellen Rodger, Min, Taeping and Lahloo. Here's an entry in a history of Hong Kong: "Gibb, Livingston, which like Gilmans may be seen as a smaller yet similar version of Dodwells, is the second oldest (after Jardines) trading firm in Hong Kong. It was founded by two Scotsmen, Thomas Augustus Gibb and William Potter Livingston, in Canton, in 1836. There it occupied one building which served as an office, a warehouse and a residence. The firm imported English cottons and woollens and exported tea and silk. Silver bullion was used as payment. The two founders soon started to diversify into such fields as shirtings, velveteen, leather and tin plate, and acted as agents for a large number of sailing ships. At an early date four Gibbs worked in the firm. Branches were opened in Hong Kong (1841), Amoy and Shanghai. In addition to the import-export trade Gibb Livingston acted as agents for Ben Line steamships, although, unlike Dodwells, it also acquired its own tea clippers. Then, in 1899, it purchased a fleet of steamers which sailed as the Gibb Line."
Still not sure, but I suspect strongly now that the flag shown as belonging to Gibb, Livingstone may be the one the Taeping was flying (when in port, or on portraits - merchantmen didn't do any unnecessary flagging at sea). One reason is that Lubbock in his plate of houseflags would be likely to include the flag flown by the comparatively famous Alexander Rodger ships. And if Gibb, Livingstone owned any crack clippers, they would have been mentioned in MacGregor's 'Tea Clippers', as Alexander Rodger is in the entry for four ships. -That's what I have!
The sail plan of Ariel could be of use if you haven't gotten very far yet: http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r28/stein_photo/DSC_0005-1.jpg Regards, Stein.
Many thanks for the imformation i would never have traced it myself , in fact the house flag of the Ariel i found last night by chance in an old copy of the sea breezes magazine dated january 1998 on page 40 it shows a coulor painting of Ariel under full sail but because the flag is fluttering it is hard to make it out properly in fact i thought it was a red flag with a black ball and within the black ball i could make out a white mark so it looks like i am home and dry and i would be quite confident myself that you have got it right with the house flag of Taeping , in fact the house flag of ct Bowerings who i sailed with in the Prospero is very similar best wishes Stein . Dave .