B.O.T. Radar Maintenance Certificate.

Gareth Jones
15th October 2008, 16:10
Around the time I left the sea I began to hear rumours that a Radar Mtce Cert would be made compulsory on all single R/O ships. Can anyone tell me if this actually happened ?

Dave Woods
15th October 2008, 17:12
Around the time I left the sea I began to hear rumours that a Radar Mtce Cert would be made compulsory on all single R/O ships. Can anyone tell me if this actually happened ?

Gareth,

Yes it was made compulsory, MIMCO started doing their own courses. I took mine at East Ham Depot in 1981, about a month from what I remember

Shannoner
15th October 2008, 19:22
When I was doing my DoT Radar straight after my MRGC in 1980, there were two seagoing R/Os doing it with us. In the three years that I was at Jordanstown (1977 - 80), I saw a lot of R/Os returning from sea to do the radar, I think most of their companies insisted on it, so if it wasn't officially compulsory, then it was unofficially compulsory due to pressure from employers.

IanSpiden
15th October 2008, 19:55
I think the " compulsory" part was more that Radio Companies and those companies who were Direct Employ would not really entertain employing anyone who did not have a Radar Maintenance Cert , I did mine in 1969 at Leith and almost everyone that I can remember went on to do it after getting a 2nd class, it was worth it as you were paid more if you had it.

I did a period as a Ship Inspector from 1991-1996 and there was never an Official requirement that a Radar Maintenance Cert be carried onboard , it was only comparatively recently , 1970's if my memory serves me that 3 cm Radar became compulsory on ships at all

steve Coombs
15th October 2008, 20:23
Took mine at East Ham-we had to do it

Degema
15th October 2008, 21:24
Did mine in June 1978 at Cardiff. At the time I was with Ocean Fleets and the Electrician was responsible for radar maintenance but we always worked together if there were any problems.

bert thompson
15th October 2008, 22:17
Took mine at Leith on Friday 13th. November 1950. Certainly was not compulsory and there was no extra pay involved. This was still the normal or was until I left the sea in 1959. When I returned in 1977 things were so different
Bert.

mikeg
15th October 2008, 23:17
Did mine at East Park Terrace Southampton Cert No. 2868 29th June 1965. A small stick-on note says "In this document wherever the expressions 'Minister of Transport' or 'Ministry of Transport' occur they are to be read as if the expressions had been 'Board of Trade" ....why use one word when a few dozen will do eh?
(==D)

K urgess
15th October 2008, 23:34
No.3021 - 3rd December 1965, taken at Hull Tech on 6th December and issued by the MMO on 3 Jan 1966.
The certificate has Board of Trade on it but it looks like the print run was done in April 1965 (4/65)
It really says Board cf Trade in note 3 on the back.
If the ship didn't have a Marconi radar or a Marconi radar contract we didn't get paid for it. After MED everything was covered anyway but I still got the radar allowance on top of the electronics bonus.
I can't remember being forced to take it. It was just part of the PMG course and slotted in between part one and part two as a bit of a break.
First ship had a Decca radar and no contract but I had an "arrangment" with the Old Man. My chief didn't have the radar ticket.

Ron Stringer
16th October 2008, 08:55
Took mine some time in the summer of 1964 at South Shields - lecturer was Jimmy Doig, a great teacher. There was no requirement to have a BOT Radar Maintenance certificate and no extra pay from MIMCo for having gained the qualification.

I did have paid study leave whilst getting the qualification. Had to draw the dole, queueing every week with loads of other students at the Employment Office near the Westoe pub. Think my day to sign on was a Wednesday, but the students were divided up (alphabetically?) into groups, each signing-on on a different day of the week, to ease the load on the Office. Then MIMCo made up the difference between the dole and my full pay.

As I mentioned on another thread, as I was going back to sea before the certificate would be issued, I asked for it to be sent to the nearest Shipping Office to my parent's home, in Manchester. Never got back to collect it before the Manchester Shipping Office closed, so never got to pick up the document and don't know its number or date.

Later that year I went to Hull on a Hermes/Argus course, the first of those courses given by Freddy Dearlove and Bill Sawney - all previous courses had been given by Gordon Lee at Chelmsford. Bit different from the Radiolocator/Quo Vadis course I enjoyed at Cardiff in 1961, but staying in the local Merchant Navy Hotels on expenses both times for a couple of weeks, was very enjoyable.

bert thompson
16th October 2008, 11:38
Forgot to say that the ticket number was 401
Bert.

R651400
16th October 2008, 11:43
Forgot to say that the ticket number was 401
Bert.Under the redoubtable Mr Radar himself, Andrew Bogie?

BobClay
16th October 2008, 11:49
Nr 4161 from Leith in 1970. As Ian mentioned earlier, it was the norm to go straight into the radar class after the 2nd PMG. Taken on a Raymarc and Decca 404 I think.

Also did Kelvin Hughes fascinating course on the Photoplot, the school being on the end of Southend Pier. Not a bad place for a good radar pix, but that photoplot was an electro-mechanical machine that was, to say the least, startling.

Course was a month long, and never saw one again.

mikeg
16th October 2008, 12:09
Nr 4161 from Leith in 1970. As Ian mentioned earlier, it was the norm to go straight into the radar class after the 2nd PMG. Taken on a Raymarc and Decca 404 I think.

Also did Kelvin Hughes fascinating course on the Photoplot, the school being on the end of Southend Pier. Not a bad place for a good radar pix, but that photoplot was an electro-mechanical machine that was, to say the least, startling.

Course was a month long, and never saw one again.

Did you sail with the Photoplot Bob? It was certainly high maintainance: emptying the waste tray, making sure film stock, developer and fixer levels were topped up plus cleaning out the fluid tracks if shut down for any time and making sure the transport was clean - Heath Robinson comes to mind. Whilst I was looking for the course certificate from the photoplot course at Southend I came across a certificate for the Marconi Predictor course at Chelmsford from 2nd to 13th June 1975..anyone else here on that course at that time?

Mike

trotterdotpom
16th October 2008, 13:02
Did the Radar course about 1974 at Hull Tech - learned more about fault finding than in the PMG 2nd and 1st Classes combined. Sadly I lost my handsomely inscribed linen paper certificate somewhere, but I still have a crumpled photocopy somewhere.

Re the Predictor course, I was reminded of a young lady who went to the doctor and asked for "some of those contradictors". The doctor asked her what they were for and she said: "To stop you having babies." The doctor said: "Are you ignorant?" She replied: "Yes, three months."

John T.

bert thompson
16th October 2008, 15:01
R651400
Mr Bogie who else. Great lecturer
Bert.

King Ratt
16th October 2008, 18:33
Cert No 2318 dated 29 Jul 1963. Courtesy of Mr Bogie.

IanSpiden
16th October 2008, 19:20
"Chalky" White was the lecturer at Leith when I did mine and as Bob said it was a Decca 404 and a Raymarc.

I also did the Southend Pier Photoplot and sailed with it twice , once on the Ardvar ( 206,000 ton tanker) and on the Arcadia , there was a version with a ball resolver as the computer and a version with an electronic computer either one was a real complicated mechanical nightmare to fix especially in the middle of the night trying to line up gate switches with a torch balanced somewhere !!!!

omega2618
16th October 2008, 23:54
Couldn't let this thread pass without a mention of Fleetwood Nautical College and the excellent radar facilities in two locations ashore and one on a fishing vessel (adding some realism to the course!). I gained my certificate, No.5449 ,in February 1976 and included in the class were two females R/O's from Wray Castle.
My final examination on the two radars,one valve and one transistor,had a bizzare twist when it comes to fault finding.
I was the first student,on a Monday morning, called into the examination room hot on the heals of a late lecturer who had blindly put the regulation faults across the two radars.After 30mins and a lot of cursing and blinding I had failed to get even a glimmer out of either radar despite replacing the main isolator fuse.(There's always one - every exam.) Eventually the lecturer intervened ,muttering something about students,and proceeded to fail,miserably,to find the fault.Another 20mins passed,I swear there were beads of sweat on the lecturers forehead,when I realised a possible cause.I remembered that whilst waiting outside a lecture room on the second floor of the college I had idly noted a hatch way to the flat roof with an isolating switch.Sure enough,it was there as a safety precaution for the caretaker during routine maintenance and he had been up there that very weekend but not re-set it.I was pleased as punch to return to the examination room to find the radars operational.The lecturer returned to his desk muttering something about my parentage.Halcyon days.

BobClay
17th October 2008, 00:39
I never sailed with the photoplot, but I can always remember thinking on the course that this stuff needs to be done electronically. That isn't to say I wasn't impressed with the sheer ingenuity of that machine, but in 1971 I sailed with the Norcontrol ACAS radar on a brand new Malmo built Hudson Supertanker. It really was a stunning advance in shipborne radar (although the computer was programmed with punched tape, it plotted and vectored direct to the display, which was science fiction to me at the time).

A few years later such radars were common as muck, but in 1971 (at least it seemed to me), this was really Flash Gordon stuff. We also had a video machine on that ship, made by Phillips, which used actual film cassetes (nope, not the 2000, but actual film cassettes that fed direct into a tv camera, sort of like the Photoplot). And the main transmitter/receiver were fully synthesised, (considering my previous trip was a Bank boat with RadioLocator/Oceanspan setup, this was mind boggling stuff).

Remembering my radar ticket exam, I can always remember the night before we'd been to a party, where they had home brewed beer in a bath, which we drank (a very bad idea). So when I dropped the front of the Decca 404 (lovely bits of kit to work on were Deccas), I stared at the circuit board, trying to decide whether or not to find the fault, or puke on it. I must have made the right decision cos I passed, but that was a long long half hour.

Mimcoman
17th October 2008, 02:14
Hi, Mike:

I was on a Predictor course about then, with two other guys who were also on the T&J Harrison sparkie pool. There were about eight people on the course. Seem to remember it was a four-week course? I had the fear of God put into me about the Predictor by a Mimco shore tech who told me that, as I didn't have an MED, I wouldn't be able to follow the digital techniques. Of course, it was not so bad, in fact - (very logical, pardon the pun) - after I had got my head around the constant timebase speed regardless of the selected range and the fact that the scanner rotation speed changed to accommodate changes of course.

mikeg
17th October 2008, 13:37
You have a good memory Mimcoman, I also had some preconceived notions which all 'went out the window' during that course. Seem to remember that the Methane Princess was one of the test beds.
For those not in the know, video data was stored on an endless loop cassette. The scanner azimuth was also synchronized by a pre-recorded tone and stored. The cassette contained just enough tape for 6 minutes of data before being overwritten. Due to its continual use, the tape had a limited life and had to be replaced, in early units static electricity caused premature failure the tape jammed/mangled within the cassette.
Worked well enough though.
Mike

K urgess
17th October 2008, 14:30
Luckily I never suffered a major failure on any of the True Motion Units I sailed with. Plus I never had to cope with any sort "prediction" TMU or recording system.
My MED notes show that we, thankfully, only considered one mechanical system and one electronic system at South Shields.
I think the mechanical system was Kelvin Hughes but can't find it named in the notes. The "computerised" system appears to be based on the Marconi Raymarc system.
The notes we got about true motion itself and the various advantages/disadvantages are quite interesting but some of the Gestetner pages have faded a bit. I'll see if I can scan the first few pages.
The first below is the mechanics of the "resolver" system with the second being the block diagram. The third is the block diagram of the "electronic" system that still relied on a "sine/cosine potentiometer" for operation.

I did my radar ticket on the Hermes/Argus with a bit of Mark IV thrown in. Probably a lucky move because the Hermes/Argus was probably one of the most complicated units I ever saw. The difference between it and a Raymarc was a bit like the difference between a Humber Super Snipe and a MkI Mini.

King Ratt
17th October 2008, 17:12
Kelvin Hughes SDR (Situation Display Radar) seems to ring a bell. Sailed with it on two ships. Not one of my favourite radars for fault finding. Seem to remember mirrors and lenses were used in it...all a long time ago.

Mimcoman
17th October 2008, 18:41
I only sailed with a Hermes once - and once was enough, couldn't belive how complex it was. The main memory that stays with me was that you could pull out valves with what seemed to be gay abandon and the radar still seemed to work. And the gearbox oil... But the 96NM range was useful - or so I was told. I only fixed the thing , never drove it.

While I never saw an ARPA radar, I always felt that the Decca "matchsticks" were a simple and practical plotting aid - one of the best ideas around.

K urgess
17th October 2008, 18:54
I've still got some chinagraph pencils knocking about somewhere from Marconi reflector plotters.
Smoke and mirrors! [=P]

freddythefrog
17th October 2008, 20:46
I believe the guy who invented the KH 14/16P "ball resolver unit" for true motion went mad literally.
Nearly went mad myself a few times trying to fix the darned things!!
Who sloshed loads of grease all around the ball resolver units??
That really messed it up, big job trying to clean it all off. ARRRGHHHHH.
Did radar ticket on Marconi mark 4 1967, loads of KH various radar courses and always seemed to sail with AEI escort radars, self taught on them but became quite profficient after a while with so many problems on them and soon found my way around the sets.cheers ftf

ChasD
17th October 2008, 23:24
Cert No 2318 dated 29 Jul 1963. Courtesy of Mr Bogie.


Right behind you K.R., Mines dated 1st April '64, and no it's not a joke one !
ChasD

Ron Stringer
18th October 2008, 00:05
Elders & Fyffes t.s.s. ''Golfito'' was equipped with a Marconi ''Radiolocator IV'' radar which was fitted with R.T.I. That abbreviation stood for Radar Track Indicator, an early version of the true motion facility that eventually became common on all radars. It took the form of a small control unit slung, pannier fashion, on the pedestal of the radar display, and an enormous cabinet fixed to the after bulkhead of the wheelhouse. This contained what was in effect an analogue computer, fed with the speed and heading of the vessel (either manually by the user, or automatically through links to a speed log and a gyro repeater). Further information about tidal direction and speed could be input to the control unit by the user, if required.

All this information about the ship's movement through the water was used to move the ship's position on the radar screen in relation to the radar picture. So instead of the ship's position being fixed in the centre of the screen (or permanently off-set towards the circumference, the point representing the ship tracked steadily across the screen in the direction that the ship was heading and at a speed equal to the ship's speed.

All very standard now but in those days it was fairly novel and made more exotic since it was executed using thermionic valve (tube) technology. For those not old enough to have met equipment that did not use solid state electronics, it should be pointed out that thermionic tubes suffered a gradual deterioration in performance with age. Rather like a light bulb. This made the equipment that employed them subject to rather less than perfect reliability. Of course the more valves that the equipment contained, the more likely it was likely to fail at sea.

Now the ''Radiolocator IV'' radar itself was full of valves, somewhere between 70 and 80, if I remember correctly. The RTI computer contained even more. So it was not surprising that after leaving Avonmouth for the West Indies we were no more than a n hour our two after dropping the pilot when a call came through to the radio room that the radar was ''playing up''. The Chief R/O, P.J. Kelly was very unsure of himself where radar was concerned - he had gone to sea long before its invention. When it came to analogue computers, he was way, way, out of his depth. So he dreaded problems involving the radar when it was being operated in the true motion mode. He impressed on the Mates that RTI was an optional facility, to be used only in special circumstances. Of course they took this with a huge pinch of salt and were attracted to the radar and its ''optional facility'' like kids to an amusement arcade. No opportunity was missed to set it going and to try to get the speed and tide settings just right, so that the land stayed absolutely still, with no smear, while the ship's origin sailed smoothly across the screen.

PJK pointed at me and said, ''Come with me, Mister.'' When we got on the bridge, the Second Mate pointed to the radar and said, ''Have a look at that, Sparks, it is tracking at 50 knots, and it's going astern!'' And sure enough, it was. We were zapping back towards Avonmouth, crossing the screen in seconds before resetting instantly, only to resume our mad dash up the Bristol Channel in reverse. Kelly's face was a picture as we set to to remove the covers from the RTI computer unit and reset the gate switches so that we could begin measuring valve feeds with the plug-in meter provided. I was reading from the faultfinding information in the handbook and PJK was operating the meter. After about half an hour of this, on hands and knees on the wooden deck, things were getting a little fraught. It is one thing fault-finding in the seclusion of the Radio Room but quite another in the glare of the wheelhouse, under the interested, if amused, gaze of the Second Mate, a couple of apprentices, the QM and the lookout who spent at least as much time watching us as looking over the dodgers. I had never seen the RTI before and PJK hadn't a clue. He began to sweat and became very red in the face.

It was at this moment that the Master, G.M. Roberts appeared. ''How are things going, Sparks?" he enquired. ''Can you hurry it up, we need the radar as visibility is reducing?''

''I'm doing my best Cap'n,'' was Kelly's rather tetchy reply, ''but this is very complex equipment, you know.''

To which GM's response was a light-hearted, ''Not to worry, it was working fine when we left the locks at Avonmouth, so there can't be too much wrong. It's probably just a valve.''

The reaction from Kelly was explosive. The level and tone of his voice rose rapidly.

''Just a valve? JUST A VALVE? AND JUST WHICH ONE OF TWO HUNDRED F*CKING VALVES DO YOU SUGGEST IT IS?

To his due, the Master recognised that the situation was not being helped by his presence and made a tactful withdrawal. About half an hour later we found the fault and restored the system to normal and left the bridge. Kelly never spoke of it again but all future complaints about the radar were passed to me for action. It must have been because I could read the book, because it certainly wasn't anything to do with my knowledge of radar. Prior to joining the ship I had only read about it, never seen it in action. Of course as soon as I signed off that ship, I was sent to Cardiff on a two-week ''Radiolocator IV'' training course. And equally predictable is the fact that on completion of the ''Radiolocator IV'' course, I was appointed to a ship with a Marconi ''Quo Vadis'' radar (never, ever, had a course on that!)

mikeg
19th October 2008, 18:47
Whilst we're at it, here's mine:

Clive Kaine
22nd October 2008, 13:58
I did a period as a Ship Inspector from 1991-1996 and there was never an Official requirement that a Radar Maintenance Cert be carried onboard , it was only comparatively recently , 1970's if my memory serves me that 3 cm Radar became compulsory on ships at all

If I recall correctly, radar became compulsory around 1975. Certainly it was then that the USCG stipulated that all ships visiting US ports had to have TWO radars, which effectively made it compulsory for all deep sea ships.
The reason I remember it as 1975 was that I was on the Busiris/GHKZ in drydock in S. Shields at the time the second Decca radar was fitted.

Mimcoman
23rd October 2008, 15:14
I've only recently discovered that there was a frequency allocation for 5Ghz maritime radar. Has anyone ever heard of such gear?

Ron Stringer
23rd October 2008, 17:29
I've only recently discovered that there was a frequency allocation for 5Ghz maritime radar. Has anyone ever heard of such gear?

Yes, it was known as C-Band radar. Claimed to combine the advantages of 9GHz X-Band (fine discrimination) and 3GHz S-Band (long range and better penetration of rain). Radars were built to operate in C-Band but I am not aware of any that were fitted to merchant ships in any quantity.

Mimcoman
23rd October 2008, 20:11
Thanks, Ron.

Roger Bentley
24th October 2008, 16:30
Slightly different wording re some of the others. As Brocklebanks tended to use BTH at the time we were all sent to the James Watt College at Greenock as they had that type there.

mikeg
24th October 2008, 17:00
Good calligraphy Rodger, befitting the amount of work involved. Script reminds me of the early Osmaroid pens.

Mike

Roger Bentley
25th October 2008, 14:36
Good calligraphy Rodger, befitting the amount of work involved. Script reminds me of the early Osmaroid pens.

Mike

Yes Mike, I think the chap who filled in the details must have been of the old school as I recall that the writing on mates tickets was of the same standard. The details on the back of the certificate are also very neat and distinctive. I collected it at Manchester, and the clerk who issued it barely scrawled his details! Regards, Roger

Radiomariner
10th November 2008, 03:06
You have a good memory Mimcoman, I also had some preconceived notions which all 'went out the window' during that course. Seem to remember that the Methane Princess was one of the test beds.
For those not in the know, video data was stored on an endless loop cassette. The scanner azimuth was also synchronized by a pre-recorded tone and stored. The cassette contained just enough tape for 6 minutes of data before being overwritten. Due to its continual use, the tape had a limited life and had to be replaced, in early units static electricity caused premature failure the tape jammed/mangled within the cassette.
Worked well enough though.
Mike

The MIMCo guy in Japan sorted ther tape static problem by fitting bamboo tape guides. Worked very well. Because the scanner had to synchro with the time base rotation, (Normally the other way round,) the scanner motor had tremendous torque. I recall a rotating joint siezing up and the waveguide being twisted like one of those twisty candy bars over a length of a metre before breaking off.

I might have been on that Predictor course with you Mike, (Surname begins with a C?) I do not have the actual dates to hand. I am certain I have been on some course with you. Do not recognise the photo in your portfolio, but your Avatar picture looks slkightly familiar sitting in the radio room af a "G" boat. I also remember somebody running along a railway station platform when a large packet of condoms fell from his pocket scattering over the platform. That you? Were you there?

Alan

trotterdotpom
10th November 2008, 11:17
".......I also remember somebody running along a railway station platform when a large packet of condoms fell from his pocket scattering over the platform....."

Sounds like he'd switched from "true motion" to "head up" mode.

John T.

mikeg
10th November 2008, 14:07
The MIMCo guy in Japan sorted ther tape static problem by fitting bamboo tape guides. Worked very well. Because the scanner had to synchro with the time base rotation, (Normally the other way round,) the scanner motor had tremendous torque. I recall a rotating joint siezing up and the waveguide being twisted like one of those twisty candy bars over a length of a metre before breaking off.

I might have been on that Predictor course with you Mike, (Surname begins with a C?) I do not have the actual dates to hand. I am certain I have been on some course with you. Do not recognise the photo in your portfolio, but your Avatar picture looks slkightly familiar sitting in the radio room af a "G" boat. I also remember somebody running along a railway station platform when a large packet of condoms fell from his pocket scattering over the platform. That you? Were you there?

Alan

Don't think that was me, but oh to be so lucky to buy bulk supplies of condoms, I was the average packet of three guy I'm afraid.(POP)

First of all I thought I'd ID'd you but the C I remember ended in Y with first name J, I'm sure AC will pop into mind soon, the wheels turn slowly nowadays.
Mike

chadburn
10th November 2008, 17:35
The Code words for the above at the Barbers was "Something for the Weekend Sir" now they are in the Supermarkets along with the 6fruit and veg a day.

NoMoss
10th November 2008, 18:00
Right behind you K.R., Mines dated 1st April '64, and no it's not a joke one !
ChasD

Mines not far off either, no. 2403 29th November 1963.

Left the sea a couple of months later and went back in 1978 what a shock I got!

Gordon L Smeaton
10th November 2008, 19:06
Took my BoT Radar maintenance at the James Watt College Greenock ticket dated 29 July 1966 Cert No 3193, sat this straight after my 2nd Class PMG, was still only 17 and a bit, went to see with BP and remained throughout finally leaving after 40 years.

andysk
10th November 2008, 22:23
Mine's 4604, dated 3rd August 1972, following the exam taken at Norwood Technical College in July 1972.

On the back it had to be corrected as the exam date was typed in as 1952 - if that were true, I would have been the youngest recipient by a very long way !

It's on linen, front signed by W Madigan, 'An Assistant Secretary of the Board of Trade', the rear signed by C R Langham, Superintendent at the Port of London.

Radiomariner
11th November 2008, 02:20
".......I also remember somebody running along a railway station platform when a large packet of condoms fell from his pocket scattering over the platform....."

Sounds like he'd switched from "true motion" to "head up" mode.

John T.

Can you re-member where and when? Definately a "shared" experience.

Radiomariner
11th November 2008, 02:33
Don't think that was me, but oh to be so lucky to buy bulk supplies of condoms, I was the average packet of three guy I'm afraid.(POP)

First of all I thought I'd ID'd you but the C I remember ended in Y with first name J, I'm sure AC will pop into mind soon, the wheels turn slowly nowadays.
Mike

The C was what I thought was your name. Figured that G was just a ploy.
My initals AS. You might remember me from the daily "G" chat skeds. I see that somebody else remembers the condom incident. Wish I could remember where and when!
When I have time I'll give some more details on my profile

Alan

trotterdotpom
11th November 2008, 05:37
Sorry RM, I was merely commenting on your post. Sounds like the culprit may have had access to a ship's medical chest - let's hope he had the good fortune to put them all to use.

John T.

CrazySparks
12th December 2008, 08:12
Got mine in 1976 at Riversdale, at the end of the MRRT course. Did other colleges do this? The upshot for radar was that I sat a C&G theory exam not the BOT theory paper - and I still think the C&G one was the easier. The MRRT (Marine Radio and Radar technicians' Certificate) came in conjunction with the C&G Final Telecomms cert which we completed before the marine radar and marine radio papers.

Anyway, by 76, trying to get a 2/RO job without the radar qualification would have been completely futile. At Riversdale we (I think) had the MIMCO RL 16. I still remember the time base generator was based on a discrete monostable flip flop. Happy days! There was an earlirt generation of valve MIMCO radar as well, but I don't remember it's designation.

At sea, I found the Decca radars to be more reliable.

DaiSparks
28th February 2009, 00:47
I think the " compulsory" part was more that Radio Companies and those companies who were Direct Employ would not really entertain employing anyone who did not have a Radar Maintenance Cert , I did mine in 1969 at Leith and almost everyone that I can remember went on to do it after getting a 2nd class, it was worth it as you were paid more if you had it.


Ian,
I know, I was there and Ted W was the exam moderator.


DaiSparks (Thumb)

ronmac6
2nd March 2009, 21:04
When I was doing my DoT Radar straight after my MRGC in 1980, there were two seagoing R/Os doing it with us. In the three years that I was at Jordanstown (1977 - 80), I saw a lot of R/Os returning from sea to do the radar, I think most of their companies insisted on it, so if it wasn't officially compulsory, then it was unofficially compulsory due to pressure from employers.

hi Shannoner
In 82 I was one of the seagoing R/Os returning to do my DoT Radar in Jordanstown. What a shock to the system !
The rest in the course were young guys hot on theory after just passing their MRGC. I was returning after 15 years at sea & coundn't believe how out of touch I was. I left school with A levels in pure maths, applied maths & physics and now I had forgotten how to even use log tables!

Almost packed it in after a few days but the instructor (Roly ?) persuaded me to give it a go. Thanks to him plus an incentive from Mimco that my continued employment was dependent on getting my radar ticket I did pass with a lot of hard work. (no 8517).

2 years later I joined Nagara (box boat) to find the leaving R/O was packing in the sea as he had several times tried to get his Radar and failed each time.
I felt so sorry for him & realised how lucky I was.

Another post in this thread was about the mark 4 radar. I sailed with this only once in a Denholms ship. When someone on the bridge switched on the radar the radio room sounded like a sewing machine factory starting up on a Monday morning. Had never seen a radar with its own built in oscilloscope.

I must learn to keep my posts shorter

regards ronmac

Shannoner
2nd March 2009, 22:30
hi Shannoner
In 82 I was one of the seagoing R/Os returning to do my DoT Radar in Jordanstown. What a shock to the system !
The rest in the course were young guys hot on theory after just passing their MRGC. I was returning after 15 years at sea & coundn't believe how out of touch I was. I left school with A levels in pure maths, applied maths & physics and now I had forgotten how to even use log tables!

Almost packed it in after a few days but the instructor (Roly ?) persuaded me to give it a go. Thanks to him plus an incentive from Mimco that my continued employment was dependent on getting my radar ticket I did pass with a lot of hard work. (no 8517).

2 years later I joined Nagara (box boat) to find the leaving R/O was packing in the sea as he had several times tried to get his Radar and failed each time.
I felt so sorry for him & realised how lucky I was.

Another post in this thread was about the mark 4 radar. I sailed with this only once in a Denholms ship. When someone on the bridge switched on the radar the radio room sounded like a sewing machine factory starting up on a Monday morning. Had never seen a radar with its own built in oscilloscope.

I must learn to keep my posts shorter

regards ronmac

Hi Ronmac,

Yes the Radar was an intensive course, a lot was packed into 6 months. I wouldn't have fancied doing it after being away from the classroom for 15 years! Stan Rowlinson (Roly) was the best Lecturer I have ever come across and only for him a lot of people would have failed the Radar.
Check out this post at #8 about Roly
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=21825
Where did you do your radio Ticket?
Regards,
Mick

ronmac6
3rd March 2009, 01:01
hi mick

Thanks for your reply, Yes it was Stan who got me through my radar & added another 10 years to my career. A dedicated man who passed on his knowledge to an old fart like me who thought he had come to the end.

I passed my ticket in a private radio school in Eglantine Ave of the Lisburn road in Belfast, On reflection I would have done better with Roly & his methods,

regards

ronmac

Vital Sparks
3rd March 2009, 13:43
I remember doing my radar practical exam at Leith. They had two radar types which were allocated randomly by the examiner on the day so it was necessary to swat up on both. I was one of a class of nine and was allocated the Decca RM1226 while all the rest were allocated the Marconi RadioLocator (much easier). Funny coin that DOT chap used.

Mayday
31st July 2009, 00:45
I did mine at Northern Counties, Preston in 1974, nr 5096 where I did MRGC M/389.
Radio locator IV and the other was a Decca, can't remember the model now.

Sailed with Photoplot, 21/16 and also had one of the first Situation Display Radars from KH installed with much pomp and ceromony and which promptly failed within a couple of days from Tilbury bnd Aus.
I had been told that under no circumstances was I to touch the thing but the other radar was a KH photoplot if I remember correctly and something needed to be done. After lots of traffic with KH to no avail we were told to shut the thing down for the rest of the trip to Aus. After discussion with the OM, I dived inside and managed to get the thing working enough for use. The downside to this was returning it back to the original faulty condition at 4 am after FWE in Melbourne before the KH chaps descended.
I do believe it was made obsolete within a couple more years although I think it was well liked by the navigating department.

Dutchy62
1st August 2009, 23:59
Did the MOT Radar at Norwood Tech (following straight on from the PMG 2nd and 1st class) in '62 on the Radiolocator 4, I think one of the instructors was a guy called Gibson.

Only other radar I sailed with was the Kelvin Hughes 14/12 - did the course for that, as mentioned by others, at the end of Southend pier, notable only for the very dodgy hotel and 20 free rides on the pier train - also the slap up dinner the KH guys took us out for, presumably for propaganda purposes.
I worked for NZ shipping who tended to put their radars in a hut at the foot of the radar tower above the monkey island, not too pleasant for fault finding in a swell (which was a frequent occurrence)! I seem to recall that the 'locator 4 had a few readily accessible bits that bit the unwary with 4kV odd as I found to my cost a couple of times.

One of the tricks I used to enjoy was to reverse two of the three connections on the magslip which cause the display trace to rotate anticlockwise instead of clockwise. The mates used to look at it in puzzlement, not quite being able to work out what was wrong! Only worked once a ship though.
On one ship, the Paparoa, the mates kept reporting a particular fault with the radar, the dreaded spoking. Each time this was reported, I could find nothing wrong and went back on watch only to have the fault reported again. Turned out that because the ship had a very tall chimney (known I believe as a woodbine), it needed an extra tall radar scanner tower and so the ship's main aerial was only a foot or two above the scanner. Consquently, when I keyed the transmitter, the transmissions broke through into the radar scanner and were reproduced faithfully on the display! Of course, when I was called to look at it, no transmissions were taking place and the spoking went away. Took a while to cotton on to that one!

Dutchy62
2nd August 2009, 00:13
Did mine in June 1978 at Cardiff. At the time I was with Ocean Fleets and the Electrician was responsible for radar maintenance but we always worked together if there were any problems.

Lekkies doing the radar? The mind boggles.

On one ship, I was talking to the electrician working on the outside deck lighting and he said the fuses were located illogically around the ship in a fuse cupboard in one of the companionways. To save time looking for the fuse, he shoved his pliers into the light socket which took the fuse out! Unfortunately, having completed the job, he still had to find the fuse of course. I don't think this fault finding technique lends itself to the Radiolocator 4.

Vital Sparks
4th August 2009, 18:38
Received a call from the bridge by the brand new third mate, "the main radar is arcing". I'd just replaced the CRT, so suspecting a badly seated EHT conector I headed up there fast but on arrival no crackling, no flashing, no smell and everything still working, "so how do you know it's arcing" I asked?. "Look", he said, "its drawing arcs on the display." (Radar - radar interference).

Ron Stringer
4th August 2009, 21:13
Spring in the North Atlantic, westbound off the Grand Banks. Master brought out of retirement (retired some ten years previously) and had never sailed with radar. The Mate, a man in his late fifties, had just done a Radar Observer's course prior to joining in Avonmouth. In their eyes I was a just boy Sparks on his second voyage unsupervised.

Shortly after 0400 hours I was woken and summoned to the Bridge where I was met by the Mate and the Master (in his pyjamas and dressing gown but wearing his uniform cap). The Master said he wanted me to send an urgent Ice Warning, as we were running into a massive icefield.

There had been no mention of ice in any of the weather and ice reports for our area that I had copied the previous evening and passed to the Bridge before going off watch. Being somewhat sceptical by nature, I peered out into the night, seeking confirmation of this enormous icefield. There was nothing to be seen except the night, the waves and some rain. So I asked where the ice was.

''You can't see it'' I was told by the Mate, pointing to the radar. ''It is over 10 miles away.'' I was a bit taken aback by this and peered into the Radiolocator IV display. There, spreading right across the screen, at about 10 miles ahead, was the typical return from the rain in a line squall. Out two heroes had never seen rain on a radar picture and were envisaging a rerun of the Titanic. When I said that it was only rain, they looked at me as if I was mad as well as too young to know about such things.

They were astonished when we eventually sailed into and through the squall without any nasty crunching noises from the hull. Great relief on their faces as they watched the radar screen and saw the squall pass astern and eventually fade away. They were much relieved, but only until I told them that ice was such a poor reflector of radar signals that the radar was unlikely to detect anything (other than large bergs) it until they were virtually on it. I explained that although rain could be picked up at long distance (as they had discovered), the Mark I eyeball would see the ice before the radar did. Their Great Relief was quickly replaced by Great Concern. I left them to their worries and went back to my bunk.

Larry Bennett
12th August 2009, 15:05
Can't let this thread go without mention of Pete Masters at Brunel Tech (Bristol) in 1979 - we learnt so much more in the 3 months Radar Course after completing the MRGC course, no doubt due to the intensity of the course and the quality of teaching.

Managed to find 5 faults in the exam on the Radiolocator 2 when there were supposed to be 4, much to his surprise. Glad we didn't have the Decca to be examined on - one of the early models with boards of ICs all over the place.

Understand he has now passed on, which is very sad - he used to give me and a fellow student a lift back home if it was raining...nice chap.

Larry
(Cert No 7777)

w.craig
2nd October 2009, 21:45
Did mine at James Watt Greenock, QE2 was on the way down river for trials one day we were doing practical, showed p well on the display. Had to fight with Marconi to get study leave in the end resigned & never sailed again.

freddythefrog
3rd October 2009, 00:17
Hyer Crazy Sparks
The Older Valve Set At Riversdale Was A Marconi Radiolocator Mark 1V--did My Radar Ticket On It In 1967. Regards Ftf

Graham P Powell
3rd October 2009, 09:34
Did my radar ticket at Bristol Tech with the previously mentioned Mr Masters.
Excellent tutor. Marconi Radiolocator 4 and 4A. Never saw another one after that. Sailed on one ship with very unreliable BTH radar and last ship had Kelvin Hughes 21/16P. Brand new , no manual, no diagrams. I managed to find one fault even without the aid of a manual or schematics.

roythwa
3rd October 2009, 13:08
You all seem to be under a misapprehension. The Radar Cert was in full swing at Soton in 1958/9. We had all the Marconi gear Mercury and Electra.

My first ships Esso Oxford and then Solo on The MV Broompark a brand new vessel was fitted with PPI marconi radar. And all Marconi Gear throughout.

Never had any trouble getting any station worldwide. I got so used to comms that I would duck out the Radio Room and smell the weather, never failed in picking the right frequency.

Didn't have a drinking problem wasn't introduced to that until I migrated to Australia with AWA. Only then after I left the sea and wen't into full time electronics...the TV industry was kicking in in 1963.

Made the fatal error of trying to integrate with the Aussies, boy how they put it away.

Gave the whole idea away after that, no "mates" funny mob the Aussies, wousers and boozers.

A pint in an UK pub was an occasional luxury.

I enjoyed my life at sea there was a golden rule no drinking at sea and only a few I met actually were boozers the rest didn't worry about it.

Good mates Good Times many ports twice around the world.

Left because the "efficiency experts" were looming and could see that the end was nigh.

Anyway best regards to all with no opinion because everyone experienced different lives after WW2.

Roy

david.hopcroft
3rd October 2009, 13:13
Hyer Crazy Sparks
The Older Valve Set At Riversdale Was A Marconi Radiolocator Mark 1V--did My Radar Ticket On It In 1967. Regards Ftf

Hi Freddy

Did mine on that too, early 1964. I was with AEI so never saw another one !

David
+

freddythefrog
3rd October 2009, 15:05
Hyer David
I Saw It Only Once Myself And Quite A Few Aei Escorts And Kh's.
Cheers Ftf

david.hopcroft
3rd October 2009, 20:22
Did my radar ticket at Bristol Tech with the previously mentioned Mr Masters.
Excellent tutor. Marconi Radiolocator 4 and 4A. Never saw another one after that. Sailed on one ship with very unreliable BTH radar and last ship had Kelvin Hughes 21/16P. Brand new , no manual, no diagrams. I managed to find one fault even without the aid of a manual or schematics.

I also sailed with a BTH RMS2. Had a lot of tuning troubles. At one point, I forgot to dog down the doors of the cabinet in the Radar Room. As I hot footed it to the Bridge, we rolled sharply, the door slammed with an almighty bang and the picture was fine. 'Wonderful job Sparks' said the OM. I said nothing !!

David
+

31552
28th June 2010, 23:29
No 7795 issued 24 September 1979 from Leith Nautical College 1976 to 1979 (MRRT course)

Peter

NoR
29th June 2010, 00:32
I always felt that the Decca "matchsticks" were a simple and practical plotting aid - one of the best ideas around.

Dead right. You could use true motion and plot the relative track using the reflector plotter.

Troppo
29th June 2010, 06:54
I did mine straight after my MRGC....so I was still in study mode...I feel sorry for you blokes who had to come back and do it after being at sea...tough...

Bob Murdoch
29th June 2010, 08:57
Did my MOT Radar at Watt Memorial, Greenock from mid-January to end March, 1958. Haad previously failed the second part of my 2nd class, so filled in the time waiting to re-sit by doing my Radar. Passed OK so I had my radar ticket before my PMG, which I did get in April. It was a BTH at the Jimmy Watt. Never saw another one after that.
Bob

Ron Stringer
29th June 2010, 10:44
It was a BTH at the Jimmy Watt. Never saw another one after that.

British Thomson Houston - their radars were known in the trade as Big Thick & Heavy.

mikeg
29th June 2010, 13:28
British Thomson Houston - their radars were known in the trade as Big Thick & Heavy.

As were their commercial Cinema Projectors of that era, over built, very heavy and non too reliable, a lot like their radars I suppose.
I used to help out as 2nd projectionist during some sea-going leaves.

Bob Murdoch
29th June 2010, 13:39
British Thomson Houston - their radars were known in the trade as Big Thick & Heavy.

Hi Ron,
Saw your entry about the true motion radar on Golfito. I was 2nd on her when that was fitted. The third (I had four months extra sea time over Dicky Bird) and I both went on leave as usual and came back to a not very happy PJK. He had baeen called back early from his leave to get some instruction on the beastie.(Cloud)
We had not been told about it. He was not amused.
So we were used to run up and down to the radar gear in the mast housing to carry messages to the Marconi techs, but were given no info on the stuff.
I dont seem to remember it being very successful at the time. And the two 'kids' were not allowed to touch it. (Jester)
I believe it was one of the first 'true motion' beasties installed.
Cheers Bob

david.hopcroft
29th June 2010, 20:30
Mine is an MoT ticket 2571 Jul '64 at Riversdale on their Marconi. Like Bob, I never saw it again, but certainly did the BTH. As the comments show - not very reliable !! ( edit - just remembered my thread of last year on this theme !)

The weirdest thing was when I joined the ship in Dublin, I peered into the radar room to see about a dozen or so huge deck lights wired in series/parallel to produce the wattage and resistance of the big green resistors in the psu. My predecessor was certainly very inventive !

David
+

Ron Stringer
29th June 2010, 22:42
We had not been told about it. He was not amused.

I can just imagine how 'not amused' he was. (Jester)

So we were used to run up and down to the radar gear in the mast housing to carry messages to the Marconi techs,

The radar transceiver was not in the mast house on the Golfito, it was down in the 'tween deck in a little cage/locker. Since PJK was wary of the radar, I often had to go down there to retune the receiver. In rough weather it was somewhat scary and uncomfortable on that foredeck without the protection of any raised forecastle.

Not as scary as going up to the scanner when it was rough and I did that several times during the 8 months I was there. When she was rolling it seemed like you were hanging over the sea, well beyond the rail either side. Remember taking the scanner off to sort out some problem with water in the waveguide or a loose doorknob transformer. Had to lash the scanner to the platform rail because I couldn't hold it against the wind. Terrified that if I lost it I would lose my job at the same time! Stowing all the screws and washers in my pockets in the hope I wouldn't drop them.

I was only the 3rd R/O so I can't see why I was worried but at the time I was ever so relieved to get back down without losing any of the bits. Even more relieved when they switched on and the radar worked.

aussiesparks
19th July 2010, 07:37
Did my MOT radar in Soton on the RadioLocator Mk4 in 1962 cert nr. 2164.
Had to threaten resigning from Marconi to get leave to do the course I had already booked in for, so they were not that interested in me doing it. Also had to go on the dole for the period of the course and then they paid me the difference when I rejoined . No wonder I only stayed with them for another two years.

Ron Stringer
19th July 2010, 15:49
Also had to go on the dole for the period of the course and then they paid me the difference when I rejoined.

That was the norm, something to do with the employment law and training. When I did my radar ticket at South Shields I shared a flat with a guy from Blue Star line who was doing his Master's ticket. He was employed by BS and they operated the same arrangement, and so did many other shipping companies. At the employment exchange where we signed on each week, there were so many of us that the queue ran alongside the building down the street every morning. Others on my course had different signing-on days; I had to sign-on on a Wednesday, my room mate was a Friday man.

Guys who had been free-lance (whether deck, engine room or radio room) just got the dole, whereas we got it raised to the level of our normal pay by our employers.

31552
22nd July 2010, 22:10
No 7795 issued 24 September 1979 from Leith Nautical College 1976 to 1979 (MRRT course)

Peter

Equipment:

I had to look it up... Must have a memory fault :-)

Radiolocator 12 (my favourite and on which I passed).

3 faults (one of which wasn't part of the exam ( I was told afterwards); but the one I found first); in 1 & 3/4 long, sweaty hours; The hangover didn't help!

The celebratory "pint" in the KMH next door afterwards sorted the hangover.


DECCA RMS 1230C with boards full of DIL TTL flip- flops ...seriously interesting after the "discrete" Radiolocator.

If memory serves:

(R)elative
(M) otion
(S) Band (interswitched with the X band on the nav "bridge".)

Both X and S transcievers were in our Radar Room along with the interswitching unit and all the other gubbins concerned.

(12) inch PPI

I don't recall what the (30) stood for but
(C) was Clearscan which was early DSP of a kind.

We also had a Kelvin Hughs Situation Display with its little TV camera and glass screens.

We, of course, were not allowed to touch it; as it was there purely for the Navs to play with. It was so big it didn't fit on the "bridge" so it was in our radar room; and, by all accounts of those who sailed with it; a pain in the "ass" to work with.

Peter

Vital Sparks
23rd July 2010, 17:55
30 = 30Kw transmit power

mikeg
23rd July 2010, 19:06
We also had a Kelvin Hughs Situation Display with its little TV camera and glass screens.

We, of course, were not allowed to touch it; as it was there purely for the Navs to play with. It was so big it didn't fit on the "bridge" so it was in our radar room; and, by all accounts of those who sailed with it; a pain in the "ass" to work with.

Peter

The KH SDR was a delight compared to the Photoplot radar. Mind you both are the works of the devil:D

Mike

31552
25th July 2010, 10:08
30 = 30Kw transmit power

Thanks! I definitely need a memory upgrade.

Peter

31552
25th July 2010, 10:10
The KH SDR was a delight compared to the Photoplot radar. Mind you both are the works of the devil:D

Mike

Rumour had it an Apprentice had to be "sacrificed" to it at the beginning of each voyage; in order for it to perform.

Peter

trotterdotpom
25th July 2010, 11:48
The Kelvin Hughes Situation Display Radar has been mentioned before somewhere. It was a laugh to take the camera out, point it at your head and show your mug on the screen (just came to me ...I mean the PPI). If the radar was working when going through Dover Straits the picture looked like a sperm sample under a microscope. Maybe it was glowing green because of the nuclear power station at Dunganess.

John T.

mikeg
25th July 2010, 14:17
Unfortunately on several Shell ships there was a second SDR display in the OM's dayroom/office (Cloud), I believe an R/O got the 'I am not amused' glare from same.

Mike

Billieboy
25th July 2010, 15:35
Unfortunately on several Shell ships there was a second SDR display in the OM's dayroom/office (Cloud), I believe an R/O got the 'I am not amused' glare from same.

Mike

I seem to remember someting about one of these incidents, when I was dining with an OM before his retirement.

Criffh
25th July 2010, 20:39
Got my BOT radar ticket in 1976, ten years after my PMG. Marconi offered the option of doing the course as a correspondence course for the theory, followed by a month in East Ham for the practical stuff, and final exams. At the end of the course, Marconis paid, as far as I can remember, a five month cash bonus, which was what you'd have been paid in study leave for doing the theory part of the course ashore.
This is my first posting on this site by the way. So hello! And does anyone remember the Marconi Predictor?

mikeg
25th July 2010, 23:13
Welcome to SN Criffh,

Yes I remember the Marconi Predictor, not too bad once the tape cassette memory were sorted out. I sailed with an early one and electrostatic problems was forever causing the loop tape to chew - lining with silver foil was one answer - think they went from polycarbonate cassette casing to metal. Sailed with a later model and it was reliable. Recall the tape had a sync tone pre-recorded on to it to ensure system sync lock as the tape drive motor speed wasn't electronically controlled (if my memory serves..)
Talking about radars, this evening I've been leafing through an old Iotron Digiplot Manual (Vol.1) courtesy of Radio Holland - brings back memories

trotterdotpom
26th July 2010, 00:41
Unfortunately on several Shell ships there was a second SDR display in the OM's dayroom/office (Cloud), I believe an R/O got the 'I am not amused' glare from same.

Mike

No sense of humour some of those Captains!

John T.

mikeg
26th July 2010, 10:44
No sense of humour some of those Captains!

John T.

Can think of a few that probably wouldn't have appreciated the R/O's odd humour ... Captain Owston, Kerley, Brittain, Morris for example (Cloud)

R651400
26th July 2010, 12:29
Not quite sure to the twist of this thread.
Extra ppi in the OM's day room/office installed by GTZM or whoever.
Why should the R/O receive flak?

mikeg
26th July 2010, 12:43
Consider what was essentially a CCTV monitor in the OM's cabin relaying what a CCTV camera sees from a minature PPI within the bridge radar unit. When the R/O unbolts the camera from the radar unit he can then point the camera at anything e.g. pulling a funny face or something entirely inappropriate (as one legend doth go..)

Criffh
26th July 2010, 13:24
Tnx for the welcome Mikeg. As far as I can remember, I only came across metal tape cassettes on the two T&J Harrison ships I sailed on which had Predictors. 30 feet of tape moving past a stationary head at 30 inches/sec wasn't it? They certainly wore out quickly! Also, two large pcbs mounted on the inside of the doors, which I think contained 256 7470 JK flip-flops, configured as a 256 bit shift register. Cutting edge back then.
Your mention of Holland reminded me of a one-week course a shipowner sent me on, in Rotterdam in the 70s, prior to joing a new-build in Japan. It was for a Sperry radar, which was fitted with a collision avoidance system. It turned out that the collision avoidance hardware was in a sealed module, which was not intended to be accessed by the R/O. The rest of the radar was pretty standard. The course itself was a basic maintenance course for masters/mates. So I spent a couple of days familiarising myself with the manual, and learning a bit about gyros, and then with the agreement of the trainers, got a ferry back to Harwich some time earlier than was originally intended. The ship itself was Liberian flag, British officers. I got off that one as soon as I could!

mikeg
26th July 2010, 15:46
Hi Criffh,

30 ips sounds about right, running virtually continously whilst at sea (on Shell ships anyway) I remember seeing a professional Studer tape recorder running at that speed - the heads wear out sooner.
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=qcVsfdty7sg
It's good to get a heads up (no pun intended) getting a course on new radars, I remember joining a Chandris ship with the OM, we neither had seen the radar type before (but I didn't tell him that :)

Criffh
26th July 2010, 19:37
Hiya Mikeg

I joined the Newcastle Star in L'pool back in 1969. 8400 grt and no radar fitted. We dropped the pick once we got clear of the Mersey, and waited >24 hours for the fog to lift before we could proceed to Cape Town. Now everything larger than a lilo is equipped with radar. It was a pretty good trip - on a charter running between Aus and S.Africa.
Seeing a reel-reel tape recorder running at 30ips is an awesome sight. I suppose that sort of gear is still used for the production of specialist high-end vinyl, where the manufacturer is honest about not employing digital processing in the audio chain.