White Fleet - Santa Maria Manuela

jay cresswell
3rd January 2009, 00:35
I had initially posted this in the wrong corner

Doubtless some of you are following the restoration of the Portuguese Grand Banks schooner Santa Maria Manuela ... sistership to Argus (now Polynesia) and Creoula

This is a remarkable project that will result in the three steel-hulled sisters dating from the 1930s still sailing

For anyone not familiar with the SMM project, there is a brilliant ... absolutely brilliant ... website devoted to the project http://santamariamanuela.blogspot.com/

Perhaps there should be a permanent link to the SMM site from Ships Nostalgia. This is maritime preservation of a fine sailing ship how it should be

I heartily recommend this site

SteveT
3rd January 2009, 03:01
Hi Jay,

They've been doing a remarkable job with her. I've watched her progress for many months now on that site.

Unfortunately, it's likely that only two sisters will be sailing. Since Windjammer went out of business last year, Polynesia has been lying in Aruba, slowly falling into disrepair. No bidders for her in 3 auctions thus far, with another yet to go this month. See this website for current pictures of her:

http://picasaweb.google.com/LibertyClip/Polynesia#

It's unlikely anyone would buy her for a cruise business, with the SOLAS rules likely to render her unusable. Hopefully there are still some rich sailing enthusiasts out there, who might realize that for a purchase price of @ $400,000, and perhaps another 1-2M to refurbish as a private yacht, she'd still be more reasonable than many newly built yachts. (Maltese Falcon, Athena, Eos, Atlantic, etc)

Steve

jay cresswell
3rd January 2009, 11:37
Crikey, Steve
Hadn't realised that the old Argus had fallen on such hard times
I don't follow the yarchting press so have no idea whether her plight has made it into the mainstream yotty-headlines
It might be useful if that were so, even in these hard recession damaged times
Like you I have followed the restoration of SMM for a considerable period.
Given how many years she lay with the threat of the cutting torch hanging over her and then the speed at which the overhaul has been taking place, I think it is all the more remarkable
To think, she was still working as a motor vessel mothership on the North Atlantic as late as the early/mid 1990s
Once again she's looking like a swan
It would be terrific if the three sisters might yet meet again somewhere, some time
Jay Cresswell
Aberdeen

jay cresswell
5th March 2009, 16:24
It looks as if Argus is to be reunited with her sisters Creoula and Santa Maria Manuela, so says a Portuguese news service headline
The chances of these three sisters even existing today are heavily stacked against them
That all are about to come back together again for the first time since the mid 70s, and in their home country, is remarkable
Even more remarkable is that, with Creoula restored, SMM being restored and the likelihood that Argus will be returned to her former glory from her current state as a Caribbean sailing cruise ship, Portugal will once again have a fleet of Grand Bankers ... but as ambassadors and not hard-bitten cod bangers

werner_ju
7th March 2009, 23:56
Hi Jay,

That’s the news I’ve waited for so long, thanks a lot. Have just found two blogs:
http://naviosavista.blogspot.com/2009/03/o-lugre-prodigo-argus.html

POLYNESIA is bought by the company Pascoal & Filhos.

Also see:
http://caxinas-a-freguesia.blogs.sapo.pt/

Regards,
Werner

jay cresswell
8th March 2009, 21:49
Thanks Werner
Had picked up on both and linked with Robert Simper of Sea Breezes. Pound to a penny he will head off with Argus's return home in the next issue
Pascoal also own Santa Maria Manuela
She is to be towed how ... according to Robert
Presumably in the spring, once the weather has improved and the vessel is made secure for the tow
Could never imagine this sort of thing happening in the UK!
Regards
Jay

SteveT
10th March 2009, 16:09
Thanks to Jay and Werner for the best news I've heard in awhile! In case you haven't already found it, here is the new blog for Argus/Polynesia:

http://polynesia2.blogspot.com/

Homepage for Pascoal:

http://www.pascoal.pt/

small blurb about SMM in the "Novidades" link

http://www.patricioclan.org/

great video of the SMM, in short version on this page, or try the link for the full 15 minute version.

Steve

jay cresswell
11th March 2009, 15:47
Steve
Thanks for your note
Was aware of all the links (and some more) but had somehow missed the video element ... will go hunt for the longer version as you suggest
Best
Jay

jay cresswell
18th March 2009, 00:58
Wow, they're not hanging about
The tow home from Aruba to Portugal has started
Following from New Quest of the Schooner Argus website:

Mar.13th’09
- 0800 Pilot onboard/ Commenced towage
- 0850 Pilot Off / Commenced transit – expect transit time 21 days.

Fingers crossed for the old lady

jay cresswell
20th March 2009, 12:43
REELING OFF THE MILES

Day March 18
16º 50’ 5’ ’ N 16 50 '5' N
60º 22’ W 60 º 22 'W
Velocidade: 7,2 nós Speed: 7.2 us

Dia 17 de Março Day March 17
16º 3,4’ N 16 3.4 'N
60º 7,3’ W 60 ° 7.3 'W

Dia 16 de Março Day March 16
15º 17’ N 15 º 17 'N
62º 55’ 7’’ W 62 ° 55 '7''W
Velocidade: 6,2 nós Speed: 6.2 us

jay cresswell
1st April 2009, 08:35
Argus has reached the Canaries ... not far now

jay cresswell
4th April 2009, 17:53
I am intrigued by the virtual absence of chatter on this board about what is one of Europe's highest profile large commercial sailing vessel restoration projects.

Moreover, tomorrow (April 6) the Grand Banker Argus returns under tow to Portugal after a 30-something years absence and will also be fully restored. In about two years, tiny Portugal (pop just 10.6million) will have three sister Grand Bankers back in commission, giving young people and maybe even us older farts a chance to experience life aboard what was a remarkable class of mid 20th century commercial sailing ship

werner_ju
5th April 2009, 00:22
Hello Jay,

The absence of Chatter might be because it seems that the White Fleet is largely unknown to the majority of sailing vessel enthusiasts. If it was not Alan Villiers who has written the book "The Quest of the ARGUS" the Portuguese cod fishing fleet would have vanished largely unnoticed.

In my list there are 47 3- and 4-masted schooners and 1 barquentine which sailed to the Grand Banks after 1945 until the last of them sailed in about 1970 (don’t have the correct date at hand). Although most of these vessels were lost at sea due to water ingress or fire there still was a remarkably big fleet in the 1960s.

It was in July 1998 that I saw SANTA MARIA MANUELA moored at a shipyard in São Jacinto and about a week later I bought the book "Faina Maior" at the Lisbon Maritime Museum. It was the second book on Portuguese Grand Bankers I’ve ever seen. From the Villiers book I knew many names of these vessels. Until recently googling for these names brought no results except for the 4 surving vessels although I used Portuguese expressions. It is just a little more than 2 years ago since Steve discovered the first blogspot on this subject. Only the blogs made it possible to gather more infos on these sailing vessels.

It seems like the interest in their own maritime heritage has grown a lot in Portugal (like in some other countries) over the past years. The now 3 Grand Bankers in Portugal will be in good hands. Of the 4 survivors I’ve missed the POLYNESIA / ARGUS so far (a good reason for my next trip to Portugal).

Regards,
Werner

jay cresswell
5th April 2009, 10:40
Hi Werner
Interesting post
I read Villiers in the early 60s as a schoolboy and tracked the Portuguese White Fleet thereafter through the pages of Sea Breezes and so forth ... every now and again there would be a casualty ... yet another lost, often as not by fire
Saw a couple of them in the late 60s (Hortense & Luiza Ribau) and SkipperOwner (a long gone fishey journal) carried a major piece in 72 (the last season as I recall for Creoula), plus I unearthed useful material while an assistant editor of World Fishing in the 80s
I've never stopped tracking them since that first interest as a lad
What baffles me is that, while this is indeed a Portuguese fleet, it was also very closely linked with Newfoundland (St John's to this day has a strong recall of those times)
And yet the famous curator of the UK's National Maritime Museum, the late Basil Greenhill, ignored them in his writings. For sure he knew about them because he covered the last of the Canadian cod schooners in his writings
And Creoula plus Gazela Primeiro have been in maritime headlines often enough ... the former through sail trining events, the latter because she's a bit of a Philadelphia waterfront celebrity
It still intrigues me that the Portuguese had large sailing ships on the Atlantic in some number during the 1960s, petering out by 73
Cheers
Jay

Bostoncod
6th August 2009, 02:57
I had initially posted this in the wrong corner

Doubtless some of you are following the restoration of the Portuguese Grand Banks schooner Santa Maria Manuela ... sistership to Argus (now Polynesia) and Creoula

This is a remarkable project that will result in the three steel-hulled sisters dating from the 1930s still sailing

For anyone not familiar with the SMM project, there is a brilliant ... absolutely brilliant ... website devoted to the project http://santamariamanuela.blogspot.com/

Perhaps there should be a permanent link to the SMM site from Ships Nostalgia. This is maritime preservation of a fine sailing ship how it should be

I heartily recommend this site I just found this video on You Tube...Go on You Tube and ask for... os solitarios homens dos doris...It will take you to a six part 1964 National Geographic special about the Potuguese White Fleet on the grand banks. It follows the Schooner Jose Alberto on it's trip.....You can't get this video anywhere as I have searched for it for years...It is spectacular so enjoy it.............BostonCod.

Eric L
25th August 2009, 05:16
Hi Werner
Interesting post
I read Villiers in the early 60s as a schoolboy and tracked the Portuguese White Fleet thereafter through the pages of Sea Breezes and so forth ... every now and again there would be a casualty ... yet another lost, often as not by fire
Saw a couple of them in the late 60s (Hortense & Luiza Ribau) and SkipperOwner (a long gone fishey journal) carried a major piece in 72 (the last season as I recall for Creoula), plus I unearthed useful material while an assistant editor of World Fishing in the 80s
I've never stopped tracking them since that first interest as a lad
What baffles me is that, while this is indeed a Portuguese fleet, it was also very closely linked with Newfoundland (St John's to this day has a strong recall of those times)
And yet the famous curator of the UK's National Maritime Museum, the late Basil Greenhill, ignored them in his writings. For sure he knew about them because he covered the last of the Canadian cod schooners in his writings
And Creoula plus Gazela Primeiro have been in maritime headlines often enough ... the former through sail trining events, the latter because she's a bit of a Philadelphia waterfront celebrity
It still intrigues me that the Portuguese had large sailing ships on the Atlantic in some number during the 1960s, petering out by 73
Cheers
Jay

Gazela Primeiro is not only a waterfront celebrity in Philadelphia, she is probably the oldest wooden-hulled sailing vessel still sailing. As I understand it, when philanthropist William Wikoff Smith purchased Gazela Primeriro in 1971 and donated her to the then Philadelphia Maritime Museum, it was for her to be a typical museum ship. However, since Smith and his friends got Gazela to Philadelphia by sailing her there, it must have occurred to someone back then that she might still be useful to sail. She has been sailing ever since as Philadelphia's tall ship and goodwill ambassador. For more details, see www.gazela.org.

I was in Portugal last week and had a chance to visit Argus/Polynesia, now docked in Ilhavo, and owned by Pascoal, the same company that is refurbishing Santa Maria Manuela. Although she has obviously seen better days, she is in good hands with Pascoal, and it is indeed amazing that there are now four Portuguese Grand Banks schooners that have survived the ravages of time and are in "good hands."

werner_ju
7th September 2009, 20:14
Hi Jay,

Finally I made the trip to Spain and Portugal. The weather conditions were right this year (I do camping, kayaking, cycling and a bit of walking). At Marin in Galicia, Spain I was at the shipyard where SANTA MARIA MANUELA is fitted out for entering passenger service in January next year. Luckily I found a beach and a car park close by where I could launch my kayak. Aproaching from the water was the only way for taking pictures. Of course there are similar photos available in the web but for the moment mine were the most actual.

Next to her on the slip is the new SEA CLOUD HUSSAR under construction, a giant compared to SMM. Her launching is due this month and once completed she will be the biggest ship rigged vessel.

Two days later, on August 20th I made it to Aveiro. POLYNESIA was already visible from the motorway. There is easy access from the road but for an unspoiled view of the vessel my kayak had to be used again. POLYNESIA is moored right in front of her owners‘ business premises, wich actually is located in Gafanha da Nazaré. The only change since she left Aruba is a new coat of white paint which makes her look quite well from the distance. From a close view her neglect is evident, but at least she is in a better state than SMM was before her rebuild.

Once the ARGUS is reborn I guess that she will look quite similar to SMM which requires her totally rebuild anyway. When this will happen I don’t know, it might take some years.

At the Museu de Marinha in Lisbon I bought the 3 volums of
"A FIGUEIRA DA FOZ E A PESCA DO BACALHAU"
The books describe the cod fishing out of Figuera da Foz from 1933 to 1977. Lots of vessels from other ports are also mentioned as well as a short history of the beginning at about 1500. The books are written in Portuguese, not easy to read for a non Portuguese speaker.

Links to some of my pictures:
SMM:
http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=santamariamanuelamaring.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=santamariamanuelamaringu.jpg

POLYNESIA:
http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=polynesiagafanhadanazar.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=polynesiagafanhadanazarb.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=polynesiagafanhadanazarh.jpg

Cheers,
Werner

werner_ju
7th September 2009, 20:20
Hi Eric,

I’ve seen GAZELA several times (Philadelphia, New York, Halifax).

GAZELA (currently her official name) is by far not the oldest wooden vessel still sailing. With most sources her year of built is given as 1883 which is true only at about 99.9%.

There was a GAZELA built in 1883, much smaller than the one we know today. GAZELA PRIMEIRO was built in 1900 by incorporating a symbolic piece of wood of the old GAZELA in the new structures. The reason for doing this was that at that time no newbuilds were allowed, rebuilds however could be done. Officially GAZELA PRIMEIRO was a rebuilt, in fact she was almost entirely new.

Unluckily the blog where I had the details from is no longer active but I’ve saved it’s contents regarding Gazela.

At least you can find a hint on her rebuilt and the whole cod fishing fleet here:
http://museumaritimo.cm-ilhavo.pt/frota/navios.aspx
Click on the small boxes with or without pictures for details and history of the vessels. In case parts of the boxes or the page selection (under the lowest right box) is obscured, play a little with the size or different folders. GAZELA for instance can be found on the sixth page.

Some of the oldest wooden sailing vessels still active are:
Germany:
RIGMOR, cutter of 1853
GRÖNLAND, topsail cutter of 1867 / 68
VANADIS, schooner of 1868

Denmark:
JENSINE, cutter of 1852

Norway:
ANNA ROGDE, schooner of 1868

Best regards,
Werner

jay cresswell
19th September 2009, 12:34
Guys
Haven't been on this thread for a while as no one seemed itnerested in the White Fleet ... but now it's clearly coming alive
The You-Tube footage is terrific ... thanks for the pointer
As for SMM ... the project is clearly motoring along and I guess that, once she's ready for work again, Argus will be stripped back and given the treatment too
All credit to the Portuguese ... they really do value their maritime heritage, and that clearly includes corporately, given Pascoal's huge role in the SMM and Argus projects

This could never have happened in the UK ... hell, we can't even preserve the Carrick and are messing up with Cutty Sark

Regards

Jay

werner_ju
25th November 2009, 23:15
Hi All,

SMM's upper masts are stepped:
http://santamariamanuela.blogspot.com/

Regards,
Werner

jay cresswell
6th December 2009, 12:07
Hi Werner ... I religeously home in on SMM's website middle of every week
Progress is amazing
Won't be long before she leaves Vigo and heads back to Portugal for final commissiong
They it will hopefully be patient old Argus's turn for rejuvination
I take my hat off to the Portuguese, I really do

werner_ju
6th December 2009, 22:10
I take my hat off to the Portuguese, I really do

Hi Jay,

Me too!!!

BTW the shipyard Factoria Naval Marin SA isn’t located in Vigo. It is in Marin near Pontevedra. Vigo is about 17km further to the South-West in another bay.

Regards,
Werner

jay cresswell
10th December 2009, 17:48
Ooops! Shud have known that given my visits to the area, inclduing some of the yards!

TNeves
1st January 2010, 02:17
A full thread just for the White Fleet! I am from Aveiro, the city that was, and still is, the berth for some of this ships, and for some of the captains too. Some were built in S. Jacinto yard, and some of the actual fleet were built there too.

I don't know if is against the rule, but in my gallery I have some photos of Argus moored in Aveiro's Port.

http://flickr.com/tiagoneves

This Portuguese blog is written by someone that has a close relation to this history.

http://marintimidades.blogspot.com/

jay cresswell
8th January 2010, 20:37
Hi Tiago
Good to see your post
I'd like to make a suggestion or two
Perhaps you could post some of your pix of Argus on this site?
It has been ages since anything was and certainly not since she returned to Portugal
Also, do you know anyone, perhaps at Pascoal or the maritime museum and who has access to up-to-date photos of Santa Maria Manuela. It would be great if some photos of her being restored were posted on this site too
I think it is amazing that in maybe another two years, the three sisters will be sailing together again
Regards
Jay

TNeves
8th January 2010, 21:00
Hi Tiago
Good to see your post
I'd like to make a suggestion or two
Perhaps you could post some of your pix of Argus on this site?
It has been ages since anything was and certainly not since she returned to Portugal
Also, do you know anyone, perhaps at Pascoal or the maritime museum and who has access to up-to-date photos of Santa Maria Manuela. It would be great if some photos of her being restored were posted on this site too
I think it is amazing that in maybe another two years, the three sisters will be sailing together again
Regards
Jay

Pascoal keeps the blog updated, and it is from there that I see the updates of SMM. About the two years, SMM is almost ready, however I don't know when Argus is going to be refurbished.

The pictures that I post here, is before the white painting, but the ship is exactly the same(Thumb)

http://img707.imageshack.us/i/img1368ur.jpg/
http://img412.imageshack.us/i/img1364w.jpg/
http://img36.imageshack.us/i/img1363gw.jpg/
http://img36.imageshack.us/i/img1360ee.jpg/
http://img689.imageshack.us/i/img1359x.jpg/

This weekend I will try to take more pictures.

I hope you enjoy it.

jay cresswell
9th January 2010, 22:01
Thanks Tiago
Yes, I check the SMM site every week
Note that there have been not further pix on the New Quest of the Schooner Argus site since Oct 19. Pity, I and I guess many others were enjoying the old historic pix
I'm guessing that the work of stripping back Argus won't start until SMM is fully commissioned. At least she got a cosmetic coat of white paint to hide some of the rust
Regards
Jay

TNeves
11th January 2010, 18:26
New pictures!

http://santamariamanuela.blogspot.com/2010/01/fotografias-janeiro-i.html

It's January update! Almost ready for the final painting. Will it be painted in black? Blue? No, pure white:sweat: just joking.

Fpaiao
15th January 2010, 23:13
Hello there, you can follow the recovery of the ship in

www.santamariamanuela.blogspot.com


Argus will take his time!

Ps: Use google translate to understand some of the texs.


Regards, Francisco Paião

jay cresswell
20th January 2010, 16:58
Hi guys
Yes, have been following recovery of SMM for the past two years
The pix posted on the website this week are fantastic
It won't be long now before SMM heads back home for the final part of her fitting work before starting charters
Can either of you get in touch with Pascoal (I can't write Portuguese, and ask if they would permit some pictures of SMM to go onto this site
Cheers
Jay

Eric L
25th January 2010, 22:56
Hi Eric,

I’ve seen GAZELA several times (Philadelphia, New York, Halifax).

GAZELA (currently her official name) is by far not the oldest wooden vessel still sailing. With most sources her year of built is given as 1883 which is true only at about 99.9%.

There was a GAZELA built in 1883, much smaller than the one we know today. GAZELA PRIMEIRO was built in 1900 by incorporating a symbolic piece of wood of the old GAZELA in the new structures. The reason for doing this was that at that time no newbuilds were allowed, rebuilds however could be done. Officially GAZELA PRIMEIRO was a rebuilt, in fact she was almost entirely new.

Unluckily the blog where I had the details from is no longer active but I’ve saved it’s contents regarding Gazela.

At least you can find a hint on her rebuilt and the whole cod fishing fleet here:
http://museumaritimo.cm-ilhavo.pt/frota/navios.aspx
Click on the small boxes with or without pictures for details and history of the vessels. In case parts of the boxes or the page selection (under the lowest right box) is obscured, play a little with the size or different folders. GAZELA for instance can be found on the sixth page.

Some of the oldest wooden sailing vessels still active are:
Germany:
RIGMOR, cutter of 1853
GRÖNLAND, topsail cutter of 1867 / 68
VANADIS, schooner of 1868

Denmark:
JENSINE, cutter of 1852

Norway:
ANNA ROGDE, schooner of 1868

Best regards,
Werner


Hi Werner,

Thank you for the clarification on other older wooden-hulled sailing vessels. I omitted "square rigger" from my description of what we believe Gazela to be -- the oldest wooden-hulled square rigger still actively sailing. I am not familiar with the other vessels you cited, so maybe she's just "one of the oldest".

Where did you get your information for Gazela's pre-1900 history? We are aware of several versions, all conflicting with each other. These different versions keep being repeated which gives each one credibility. To resolve this we would like to find original records, such as Lloyds or archives in Portugal.

One thing about Gazela that we think is remarkable is that she has been in continuous use her entire life. Although she has been rebuilt, she has never been restored from an abandoned status.

Best Regards,

Eric

Eric L
26th January 2010, 00:47
Hi Eric,

I’ve seen GAZELA several times (Philadelphia, New York, Halifax).

GAZELA (currently her official name) is by far not the oldest wooden vessel still sailing. With most sources her year of built is given as 1883 which is true only at about 99.9%.

There was a GAZELA built in 1883, much smaller than the one we know today. GAZELA PRIMEIRO was built in 1900 by incorporating a symbolic piece of wood of the old GAZELA in the new structures. The reason for doing this was that at that time no newbuilds were allowed, rebuilds however could be done. Officially GAZELA PRIMEIRO was a rebuilt, in fact she was almost entirely new.

Unluckily the blog where I had the details from is no longer active but I’ve saved it’s contents regarding Gazela.

At least you can find a hint on her rebuilt and the whole cod fishing fleet here:
http://museumaritimo.cm-ilhavo.pt/frota/navios.aspx
Click on the small boxes with or without pictures for details and history of the vessels. In case parts of the boxes or the page selection (under the lowest right box) is obscured, play a little with the size or different folders. GAZELA for instance can be found on the sixth page.

Some of the oldest wooden sailing vessels still active are:
Germany:
RIGMOR, cutter of 1853
GRÖNLAND, topsail cutter of 1867 / 68
VANADIS, schooner of 1868

Denmark:
JENSINE, cutter of 1852

Norway:
ANNA ROGDE, schooner of 1868

Best regards,
Werner


Hi Werner,

Thank you for the clarification on other older wooden-hulled sailing vessels. I omitted "square rigger" from my description of what we believe Gazela to be -- the oldest wooden-hulled square rigger still actively sailing. I am not familiar with the other vessels you cited, so maybe she's just "one of the oldest".

Where did you get your information for Gazela's pre-1900 history? We are aware of several versions, all conflicting with each other. These different versions keep being repeated which gives each one credibility. To resolve this we would like to find original records, such as Lloyds or archives in Portugal.

One thing about Gazela that we think is remarkable is that she has been in continuous use her entire life. Although she has been rebuilt, she has never been restored from an abandoned status.

Best Regards,

Eric

Eric L
26th January 2010, 02:41
Hi Eric,

I’ve seen GAZELA several times (Philadelphia, New York, Halifax).

GAZELA (currently her official name) is by far not the oldest wooden vessel still sailing. With most sources her year of built is given as 1883 which is true only at about 99.9%.

There was a GAZELA built in 1883, much smaller than the one we know today. GAZELA PRIMEIRO was built in 1900 by incorporating a symbolic piece of wood of the old GAZELA in the new structures. The reason for doing this was that at that time no newbuilds were allowed, rebuilds however could be done. Officially GAZELA PRIMEIRO was a rebuilt, in fact she was almost entirely new.

Unluckily the blog where I had the details from is no longer active but I’ve saved it’s contents regarding Gazela.

At least you can find a hint on her rebuilt and the whole cod fishing fleet here:
http://museumaritimo.cm-ilhavo.pt/frota/navios.aspx
Click on the small boxes with or without pictures for details and history of the vessels. In case parts of the boxes or the page selection (under the lowest right box) is obscured, play a little with the size or different folders. GAZELA for instance can be found on the sixth page.

Some of the oldest wooden sailing vessels still active are:
Germany:
RIGMOR, cutter of 1853
GRÖNLAND, topsail cutter of 1867 / 68
VANADIS, schooner of 1868

Denmark:
JENSINE, cutter of 1852

Norway:
ANNA ROGDE, schooner of 1868

Best regards,
Werner


Hi Werner,

Thank you for the clarification on other older wooden-hulled sailing vessels. I omitted "square rigger" from my description of what we believe Gazela to be -- the oldest wooden-hulled square rigger still actively sailing. I am not familiar with the other vessels you cited, so maybe she's just "one of the oldest".

Where did you get your information for Gazela's pre-1900 history? We are aware of several versions, all conflicting with each other. These different versions keep being repeated which gives each one credibility. To resolve this we would like to find original records, such as Lloyds or archives in Portugal.

One thing about Gazela that we think is remarkable is that she has been in continuous use her entire life. Although she has been rebuilt, she has never been restored from an abandoned status.

Best Regards,

Eric

Eric L
26th January 2010, 02:46
Hi Eric,

I’ve seen GAZELA several times (Philadelphia, New York, Halifax).

GAZELA (currently her official name) is by far not the oldest wooden vessel still sailing. With most sources her year of built is given as 1883 which is true only at about 99.9%.

There was a GAZELA built in 1883, much smaller than the one we know today. GAZELA PRIMEIRO was built in 1900 by incorporating a symbolic piece of wood of the old GAZELA in the new structures. The reason for doing this was that at that time no newbuilds were allowed, rebuilds however could be done. Officially GAZELA PRIMEIRO was a rebuilt, in fact she was almost entirely new.

Unluckily the blog where I had the details from is no longer active but I’ve saved it’s contents regarding Gazela.

At least you can find a hint on her rebuilt and the whole cod fishing fleet here:
http://museumaritimo.cm-ilhavo.pt/frota/navios.aspx
Click on the small boxes with or without pictures for details and history of the vessels. In case parts of the boxes or the page selection (under the lowest right box) is obscured, play a little with the size or different folders. GAZELA for instance can be found on the sixth page.

Some of the oldest wooden sailing vessels still active are:
Germany:
RIGMOR, cutter of 1853
GRÖNLAND, topsail cutter of 1867 / 68
VANADIS, schooner of 1868

Denmark:
JENSINE, cutter of 1852

Norway:
ANNA ROGDE, schooner of 1868

Best regards,
Werner

Hi Werner,

Thank you for the clarification on other older wooden-hulled sailing vessels. I omitted "square rigger" from my description of what we believe Gazela to be -- the oldest wooden-hulled square rigger still actively sailing. I am not familiar with the other vessels you cited, so maybe she's just "one of the oldest".

Where did you get your information for Gazela's pre-1900 history? We are aware of several versions, all conflicting with each other. These different versions keep being repeated which gives each one credibility. To resolve this we would like to find original records, such as Lloyds or archives in Portugal.

One thing about Gazela that we think is remarkable is that she has been in continuous use her entire life. Although she has been rebuilt, she has never been restored from an abandoned status.

Best Regards,

Eric

Cachinare
8th February 2010, 16:29
Hello everybody.

I know this forum "Ships Nostalgia" for a couple of years, but only now decided to be part of it due to this thread on portuguese codfishing and it´s sailing vessels, where happily I see some passionate foreigners.
I am the author of the blog www.caxinas-a-freguesia.blogs.sapo.pt , and follow very carefully everything related to fishing, codfishing, and the neverending Sea.
There are some interesting questions along the thread, as for instance why the portuguese fleet, using still sailing vessels in early 70s, is "neglected" by proeminent writers, or museums. I used to think that great sea nations, like England, Portugal, Holland, etc, had in their government the responsibility for it´s memory and care. But today I know I was wrong, because its private investment the only one who can save / develop maritime heritage (maybe Holland is an exception). Governments do the "theatre", we the people do the work, and that´s the case of Pascoal & Filhos with the 2 of the "white swans" they have in hands, for our joy.
This and other topics can provide us good discussions, as I hope to.

With regards,
António Fangueiro

jay cresswell
12th February 2010, 17:25
Hell Antonio
Good to read your note
Even though I neither read nor write Portuguese, I still pick through your website, plus the others listed on the SMM blog
Your observation about the failure of governments to care for and conserve the maritime past are all too true, but I think that, of the three, the UK is the worst. As for Portugal, the perception here is that your country cares more about its maritime past than we do. I appreciate your point about the private sector. What Pascoal is doing is quite amazing.
SMM is looking wonderful and I'm looking forward to seeing her back under sail in a few months. I guess that will be the point at which serious work will start on Argus, subject to Pascoal having the funds of course
Regards
Jay

werner_ju
13th February 2010, 00:13
Hi Werner,

----
Where did you get your information for Gazela's pre-1900 history? We are aware of several versions, all conflicting with each other. These different versions keep being repeated which gives each one credibility. To resolve this we would like to find original records, such as Lloyds or archives in Portugal.
----
Best Regards,

Eric

Hi Eric,

Sorry for letting you wait for my answer but I was off to New Zealand for the worst part of the northern winter, far away from my files.

The blogspots on the Portuguese cod fishing fleet have become a great source of information to me. It looks like there are still persons around with a profound knowledge about its history. Of course I cannot judge about the correctnes of these infos. Also I don’t speak Portuguese which means I depend on Google translation which usually provides quite funny results. However with a little practise, the occasional aid of a dictionary and the knowledge of some similar words from other languages the way is paved for understanding at least the core infos.

Well, there were at least two sailing vessels in the fishing fleet which entered a shipyard as small vessels and emerged as a lot bigger ones. These were the JÚLIA 1° or JÚLIA PRIMEIRO (same meaning) and the GAZELLA, later GAZELA PRIMEIRO.

Let’s begin with the JÚLIA because in
http://noseomar.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_archive.html (no longer working)
it was told why it happened.

Part of the original message from the above blog:
Alguns autores referem o ano de 1866, o que se torna muito pouco provável, porque os navios que referenciam como tendo ido à pesca do bacalhau não existiam nesse ano. Em 1872, a Casa Bensaúde & C.ª, com sede no Faial, mandou à pesca dois navios: a escuna "CREOULA" e o patacho "GASELLE". A Casa Bensaúde & Cª., em 1891, fundou a Parceria Geral de Pescarias. As condições climatéricas nas Ilhas não eram as melhores para a secagem do bacalhau e por isso as instalações da Empresa transferiram-se para a Azinheira Velha, no Rio Coina, perto do Barreiro. Nasceu em 1885, na Figueira da Foz uma nova Empresa, a Mariano & Irmãos, cujos proprietários eram os irmãos José e António Mariano Goulart, de origem Açoreana. Esta iniciativa partiu do seu primo, Capitão da Marinha Mercante, José da Cunha Ferreira, (que viria a dar o seu nome ao navio-motor, tipo CRCB, "CAPITÃO FERREIRA". Faleceu um anos antes e não chegou a conhecê-lo) natural dos Açores, da Ilha de São Jorge, há anos emigrado na América do Norte e a comandar navios da pesca do bacalhau. Ao ser enviado a Portugal, a comandar um veleiro com um carregamento de bacalhau, consignado à Casa Bensaúde & Cª., explicou aos seus primos as vantagens que poderiam obter se adquirissem e enviassem um navio aos Bancos da Terra Nova. Estes ouviram-no e de regresso à América comprou o navio com que tinha vindo a Portugal, ao qual foi dado o nome de "Júlia I" e ainda nesse ano de 1885, fez novo carregamento e veio descarregá-lo à Figueira da Foz. O "JÙLIA I" era um pequeno navio de 82 toneladas, armado em Hiate, mas como o Decreto de 1830 não permitia a construção de novas unidades, em 1885, o Hiate "Júlia I" foi encalhado e reconstrúido num estaleiro na Murraceira, Figueira da Foz, pelas mãos do mestre de construção naval Filipe Gonçalves Mendes, passando a ser um lugre de 218 toneladas. De um "gato" nasceu um "leão".

It tells us that JÚLIA 1° was a schooner (Hiate) of 82 tons and that a decree of 1830 forbade the building of new vessels (probably from a certain size on because small vessels like GAZELLA and JÚLIA 3° were built indeed). In 1885 JÚLIA I was reconstructed in a shipyard at Murraceira, Figuera da Foz bei the Master shipwright Filipe Gonçalves Mendes to a 3m-schooner of 218 tons. Out of the "cat" a "lion" was born.

I learned from other sources that during the time of the decree repairing and reconstructing was not forbidden.


The following blog (still working) tells us that JÚLIA 1° was built in 1853 in the United States as the schooner B.F. SPARKSO (1853 – 1884)
http://naviosenavegadores.blogspot.com/2008/11/pesca-do-bacalhau-figueira-da-foz-1900.html
According to this blog she was reconstructed in 1898 (quite a difference from 1885 to 1898). She went lost due to water ingress at the Virgin Rocks, Newfoundland in 1957.

http://museumaritimo.cm-ilhavo.pt/frota/navios.aspx
This site does not mention her increase in size at all. At least her change of rig is told and Essex (USA) as the location of the shipyard.


Now to GAZELA:
http://www.gazela.org/ships/gazela/gazela.htm
The GAZELLA of 1883 is the GASELLE in the first blog with no data except the owners given there. This site mentiones her rebuild in size, the measurements are the ones after her rebuild.

http://museumaritimo.cm-ilhavo.pt/frota/navios.aspx
The museum site just tells us that there was a rebuilt and that she received her name GAZELA I in 1900. The measurements are the old ones and the tonnage is new which obviously is an error.

http://noseomar.blogspot.com/

No longer available:
NAVIOS BACALHOEIROS QUE PERTENCERAM A BENSAUDE & CA. LDA. E À PARCERIA GERAL DE PESCARIAS

NAVIOS DE MADEIRA (wooden ships):

"GAZELA": Lugre Patacho de 180 tonaladas brutas construído em Cacilhas por J. A. Sampaio em 1883. Pertencia a Bensaude e Ca. Lda. em 1886 tendo passado para a Parceria Geral de Pescarias, Lda. em 1891. Um pedaço simbólico da quilha foi utilizado para o que se convencionou chamar uma reconstrução efectuada em 1900 nos Estaleiros J. M. Mendes de Setúbal, passando a chamar-se "GAZELA PRIMEIRO" com 325 toneladas brutas. Em 1938 foi reforçada a popa do navio tendo-se instalado um motor de propulsão Benz M.W.M de 180 HP. Reconstruído (substituição da sobre-quilha) em 1959 nos Estaleiros da Gafanha da Nazaré de Manuel Maria Mónica. Fez a última viagem à pesca do bacalhau em 1969. Foi vendido ao Philadelphia Maritime Museum em 1971.

This tells us what was used of the timber from the old GAZELA:
A symbolic piece of the keel was used for what is called a reconstruction in 1900 in Shipyards J. M. Mendes de Setúbal and renamed it "GAZELA FIRST" with 325 gross tons.

The 99.9% are just my interpretion of a symbolic piece.

I hope that the author gets knowledge of our discussion and hopefully sheds some more light on GAZELA’s history.

Best regards,
Werner

Eric L
21st February 2010, 22:17
Werner,

Quite fascinating. Thank you.

I shall investigate the blogs you cited.

Best Regards,

Eric

Reinaldo Delgado
27th February 2010, 03:59
Hello everyone and good evening.
First of all I regret being unable to offer my colaboration in these forums due lack of time, but bearing in mind the subject white fleet, I would like to place myself to help clarifying some unreplyed questions.
Long are the days where the main topics used to be discussed in the blog «nos e o mar», in spite that capt Marques is still the person who holds the most complete and interesting information about the cod fishing ships.
However I would like to say that there are more information today than there was two years ago, therefore what I really need is time to look the archives existing to overcome doubts still existing.
I must confess that it is still difficult to find out the complete fleet registered in Lisbon although I am pleased to confirm that I am well aware of almost all the ships registered in the remainder ports. Also, I would like to inform that capt Bento Leite, living like myself in the north of the country, has a remarkable job done identifying the fleet which he keeps at home, because until the present date he regretably did not find any support for published his investigation.
I am very much hopefull to publish still this year a book with all the ships (both fishing and commercial) registered in Aveiro, from 1900 until 1975. This investigation is being done by me and capt Marques and surely all interested will be informed in due course.
At this point I am doing some researching which leads to the possibility that the portuguese are linked to the cod fishing since the 12th or 13th century which means that I still have a long way to go.
Enquiries are welcome via email <reimar50@gmail.com>
P.s.- I shall have a good look to the story of the "Gazella" with comments a.s.a.p. in this page.
Very best regards to you all,
Reinaldo Delgado, Oporto

TNeves
28th February 2010, 01:26
Nice to "ear" that Reinaldo!

I would love to see that book coming out to the stores! Unfortunately we don't have that many blogs, or even a website/forum were we can publish and discuss our tradition, and everything else.

I have opened a blog to show my photos of Portuguese trawlers, and other ships that I can photograph in Aveiro's Port:

www.roda-do-leme.com (http://www.roda-do-leme.com)

By the way, new pictures of SMM!

http://santamariamanuela.blogspot.com/

She is almost ready for sea trials!:sweat:

Best Regards(Thumb)

ErictheViking
5th March 2010, 06:47
Hi,
My nickname is ErictheViking ,I am on the Reardon Smith Line (British Merchant marine company) thread as I was a radio officer with them.
However , I was also 2nd and 1st mate on the POLYNESIA AKA ARGUS for 1988 and 1992. Some might think that windjammer barefoot cruises spoiled the ARGUS but as Polynesia she gave enormous pleasure to thousands of passengers and maybe saved her for Portugal to now restore her.
I enjoyed my time on her and was always aware of her honorable history.
All who set foot on her are I'm sure thrilled that she will now be restored to original.
Regards , Eric.

Reinaldo Delgado
6th March 2010, 01:32
To members Eric and Werner
Subject : The schooner Gazzela (the early years)

In order to follow above promise please be guided that until the moment I have checked the following publications :

Lloyds : 1888, 1922, 1930 until 1941, 1945 and 1946
Portugueses ship lists : 1887 and 1888, 1890 until 1892, 1895 until 1898, 1900 until 1903, 1906 until 1910, 1914 and 1915, 1917, 1925 until 1928, 1930 and 1931, 1933 until 1935, 1939, 1941 and 1942, 1944, 1946, 1953, 1956 and 1963

Regretably is still missing the very beginning although it is already possible to get some conclusions, such as the very many structural alterations on board during the investigated pages.

The change of name :
Initially she was named "Gazella", 18??-1913
Later she became "Gazela", 1914-1930
After she was rhe "Gazela Iº", 1930-1942
Later changed to "Gazela Primeiro", 1942-1971

From the beginning she reply by the call sign H.G.V.Q.
In early lists there was no tonnage only 179,990 Cbm (Cubic meters)
classified schooner 2 masts

The first alteration in structure indicate rebuilding to have occured in 1892, showing Grt 164,01 tons and 464,595 Cbm.
The second alteration in structure happened indeed in 1901 because in 1902 the figures are substantially increased to Grt 325,48 tons and 921,114 Cbm.
Apparently she was enlarged in Lenght -Pp- from 27,2 mtrs to 47,8 mtrs and the beam was also enlarged from 6,7 mtrs to 8,2 mtrs, being then classified as a 3 masts schooner.

According to 1914's list her details show Grt 325,48 Nrt 309,21 and the lenght Pp 41,70 mtrs and beam 8,22 mtrs. Further alterations and consequent rebuilding seem to have taken place in 1930 and 1938, when she has been motorized with a MWM (Mannheim) diesel engine, 4Ci 290rpm 180 Bhp developing max. 6-5 kn/h.

I would like now to express the feeling that the "Gazella" could have been build in the UK as "Gazzelle" bearing in mind that the Portuguese Government had forbidden the building of new ships. It is my opion that the purchase of the "Gazella" could have followed the purchase of the 2 masts schooner "Creoula" build in Brixham, during 1862.

I shall return to this subject as soon I can find further information.

Best regards and a good week-end
Reinaldo Delgado - blog «navios e navegadores»

jay cresswell
6th March 2010, 14:16
Eric the Viking
You make a very valid point
Happenstance all three sisters have survived, which is incredible
I am in little doubt that, but for Capt Mike ???? of Windjammer, Argus might not be with us today. OK, so there are critics of the changes made. However, SMM went through even more radical surgery to keep her working as a motor dory carrier
It really is astonishing how all three have come through the past 70 or so years and are in the process of being reborn, much as per their original spec, while allowing for fundamentally different roles
Bravo to the Portuguese
Unless it's naval, that just about doesn't happen in the UK, except for Cutty Sark, Glenlee and very few others

Reinaldo Delgado
6th March 2010, 18:01
Hello Mr Cresswell,
Now that you mention one of the most familiar ships in the world, did you know that the 3 masts schooner "Ferreira" (according to the Portuguese registration), ex "Cutty Sark" made a campaign to the Grand Banks with cod fishermen in 1919. This happened due the shortage of ships in the country, bearing in mind that a large number of them were destroyed by German U-boats during WWI. Capt. A. Marques from Ilhavo was the man in charge during that voyage.
Best regards,
Reinaldo Delgado

jay cresswell
11th March 2010, 11:33
Hi Reinaldo

I did not know that Cutty Sark did a Grand Banks voyage whilst in Portuguese ownership as Ferreira

I have the two volume book about her by CN Longridge ... he built the model of CS that resides in the UK's Science Museum

A technical point ... Ferreira was by 1919 rigged as a barquentine rather than schooner. That was the result of being dismasted off Cape Hope during WWI. The work was carried out in Cape Town. She arrived back in UK in 1922 rigged that way

Meanwhile, SMM is expected to start trials next week, accordidng to the website
Should be some brilliant pictures of her under sail very soon

Jay

Reinaldo Delgado
1st May 2010, 14:28
Hello everyone !
I am back in the forum just to inform that the SMM is leaving the Spanish yard tomorrow, the 2nd of May, being expected to arrive at Aveiro between 3/4 hours pm.
Like many other people already advised of her arrival, I surely intend to be there to present a memorable return to her homeport.
Best regards to you all.
Reinaldo Delgado

Reinaldo Delgado
1st May 2010, 14:59
Hello again,
For those gentleman interested in the "Gazela Primeiro" history, I have been checking almost all documents available, as promised previously and I reached the conclusion that she has sailed under the portuguese flag at least since 1874, being registered in the port of Horta, Faial Island, in the Azores.
Bearing in mind that those days she was named "Gazelle", I believe that she was built
sometime around the eighteen sixties and most likely somewhere in France.
Also I realize that at 1883 she did some repairs in Lisbon and was rebuilt between 1901 until 1902 at Setubal, however in spite of the outstanding transformation she remained using the very same call sign, therefore being still the same ship.
I am still hopeful being able to find the Lloyds Register of that early period or other identical publication to obtain the missing details.
Further I would like to inform you that she was bought by Bensaude, Horta, for whale fishing whose activity took place until the remodelation at Setubal, since when she sailed to the Grand Banks.
Best regards,
Reinaldo Delgado

jay cresswell
1st May 2010, 22:35
Brilliant to see SMM looking so fine
Wonder when Pascoal will make a start of the restoration of ARGUS
I envy anyone who will be Aveiro to meet SMM when she arrives back home
Best regards
Jay

TNeves
3rd May 2010, 14:52
For those that weren't able to be there yesterday, I would like to show to you some photos taken by me:

www.roda-do-leme.com (http://www.roda-do-leme.com)

Hope you like it! Must say that was a fantastic day! Very windy though.(Thumb)

werner_ju
4th May 2010, 00:32
Tiago,

Thanks a lot for the pictures !

What a difference from the bare hulk I’ve seen at São Jacinto 12 years ago. Congratulations to PASCOAL and the Portuguese Nation for this fine vessel.

Always fair winds,
Werner

jay cresswell
8th May 2010, 19:55
I totally agree with Werner
The pix are excellent
Wonder when they will start stripping Argus for her overhaul
jay

TNeves
2nd June 2010, 18:03
Hi Guys!

I would like to show to you some pictures of Santa Maria Manuela and Argus:

http://www.roda-do-leme.com/2010/05/santa-maria-manuela-aberto-ao-publico.html

Also, you can see some of my photos from the last visit I made to the ship last weekend:

http://www.roda-do-leme.com/2010/06/visita-ao-santa-maria-manuela.html

Hope you like it!

jay cresswell
12th June 2010, 00:17
Excellent photos
You're very lucky to have been able to go aboard
Any idea when the restoration work will start on Argus?

TNeves
12th June 2010, 01:13
Thanks Jay!

About the Argus, unfortunately I don't know the date, not even where she is going to be repaired.(Thumb)

jay cresswell
12th June 2010, 11:12
Am guessing the work may start late summer/early autumn, once Pascoal can see cash flow coming in from SMM when she starts work again, giving people experience and pleasure

Was cruising around Creoula's website this morning and came across the association data-sheets for Argus, SMM and Creoula
For those not familiar with the White Fleet, all the vessels had datasheets, at least post-1945. I have copies of many
Duon't know why I didn't see them earlier as I have visitied that site so often
Think those should be posted on this site as they are now a matter of public record anyway. Interesting to see the minor differences between Argus (b in Netherlands) and her sisters (b side-by-side in Portugal)
Argus is very slighly shorter, a teeny bit narrower and a little bit deeper

It would be fantastic if, say in two or three years time, once Argus is reconditioned, if the three raced across the Atlantic to St John's

If that idea is not already being put about, I believe it should. That would be a fantastic re-enactment of the White Fleet ... say 2013 or 2014 to mark the 40th anniversary since the last campaign under sail

Cheers

Jay

jay cresswell
3rd August 2010, 00:11
SMM is en-route for the UK and this year's Tall Ship Race!
Due into Hartlepool at the end of this week/over the weekend
That's fantastic
Wonder if she ever put into a UK port during her years as a Grand Banker
Cheers to all
Jay

TNeves
3rd August 2010, 16:01
As usual I was there to see this lovely ship leaving Aveiro's Port:

http://www.roda-do-leme.com/2010/08/santa-maria-manuela-ruma-inglaterra.html

Here you can see some more photos:

http://marintimidades.blogspot.com/2010/08/santa-maria-manuela-anima-o-paredao-da.html

Regards!(Thumb)

jay cresswell
3rd August 2010, 18:10
Fine pictures

A question: Has anybody noticed that SMM's sails are not equipped with reefing points? Compare this with Creoula which has two rows.

SMM had two rows as a Banker

So what happens if she gets caught out in Biscay/Western Approaches on this first cruise? Proceed under power only, one supposes

I don't even see eyelets let into the sails so that ties can easily be fitted

I guess she will be sorted out in due course!

Anyone any opinions?

Tony Souza
5th August 2010, 15:24
Gazela Primeiro visited New Bedford, MA the during July 29 through August 2, 2010. This was the first time in five years that Gazela sailed from her home in Philadelphia, PA out into Atlantic waters. You can read an account of the voyage by going to www.gazela.org.
While in New Bedford I met a former crewmember of Creoula. He served as third engineer in 1950-1952. Our discussion was in Portuguese which I have spoken very seldom since the age of 5. What I am certain of is that he told me the names of Creoula and Santa Maria Manuela were swapped before launching. That is to say the hull that was to be Creoula became SMM and the hull that was to be SMM became Creoula. The reason for this was that something didn't fit the one hull but fit the other. I was at a loss to understand what he was telling me and there was no one else available to translate. Does anyone know more of this interesting story?
Tony

TNeves
7th March 2011, 13:27
Hi Guys!

New website lauched:

http://www.santamariamanuela.pt/

jay cresswell
24th April 2011, 16:07
Brilliant news
The Argus is dry-docked at Ilhavo ... the big overhaul aimed at restoring the old lady to her former glory has started
Meanwhile SMM is now en-route to Canada ... destination Toronto and calling at St John's on the way back
Perhaps in a couple of years all three sisters including Creoula could do a Grand Banks re-enactment together and maybe even rendezvous with the former Gazela Primeiro in St John's
Now that would raise ghosts!!!

crossjack
26th April 2011, 18:56
Brilliant news
The Argus is dry-docked at Ilhavo ... the big overhaul aimed at restoring the old lady to her former glory has started
Meanwhile SMM is now en-route to Canada ... destination Toronto and calling at St John's on the way back
Perhaps in a couple of years all three sisters including Creoula could do a Grand Banks re-enactment together and maybe even rendezvous with the former Gazela Primeiro in St John's
Now that would raise ghosts!!!


that's good news, I saw SMM at Sail Amsterdam, she does look very impressive.

werner_ju
5th May 2011, 23:47
Hi Jay,

I think we still have to wait for some years until restoration work on POLYNESIA / ARGUS will commence. To me it looks like she was in drydock for necessary maintenance:
http://lmcshipsandthesea.blogspot.com/

Scroll down past the SANTA MARIA MANUELA.

More pictures of her at:
http://lmc-creoula.blogspot.com/

Anyhow, an importand step for diong the job one day.

Does anybody know if she is already renamed to her old name ARGUS ?

Best regards,
Werner

jay cresswell
11th May 2011, 00:33
Werner
You are probably right ... just a decent clean below and checking of anodes for now, I guess

The Argus/Polynesia website has been moribund for many months, which doesn't help

I saw the photos you refer to ... that's what sparked my last post

Best
Jay

jay cresswell
8th February 2012, 20:20
Folks
The SMM website has been silent since early December
I find that rather odd
Does anyone know whether owner/operator Pascoal is still in business?
Given the state of Portugal's economy, I'm becoming concerned
If Pascoal is in difficulties, then this would have an impact on SMM and the long-awaited refurbishment of Argus
Perhaps one of our Portuguese members can check things out?
Best
Jay

TNeves
8th February 2012, 21:21
The economy is not very good, but its not the end of world, also(LOL)

Pascoal is still in operation, and the ship as made some voyages, scientific ones for example, in cooperation with local universities. The website has the new calendar for 2012, so it's not that silent too.

Well, I don't know for sure, but maybe it's not the best time to repair Argus, the investment is very big. However, Argus was in drydock and had the hull painted.

Tony Souza
9th February 2012, 16:49
One of my Gazela shipmates has signed on for the SMM July trip from Lisboa to Cadiz as a trainee. She's a specialist in antique ship preservation.

jay cresswell
11th February 2012, 09:55
Guys
Thanks for the replies
I tracked last year's adventures including the late summer cetacean research voyage
Am glad to learn that Pascoal continues in business and that bookings are being taken for SMM's 2012 voyaging season, even though the website is dormant in terms of news
I have been wondering about signing up for a voyage in SMM, preferably the next time she heads for Newfoundland, though that may not be for some time, in which case I'll choose a different option
As for Argus, I saw the dry-docking pix on the Navios site at the time they were posted. At least her bottom is well coated and the fresh anodes fitted. As you say, reconditioning Argus will be expensive and the old girl will have to be patient, perhaps for another three years or so
Oh well!
Best wishes
Jay

Reinaldo Delgado
12th December 2012, 17:15
Hi Jay Cresswell and other members interested in the history of the white fleet.

I am reporting again today regarding the barkentine "Gazela" which is surely by
now the oldiest sailing ship in the world, because in the meantime I have got evidencies that she was initially built as a schooner at Southampton on 1832, for Mr. William Mack Anthony who named her "Dolphin".
During a long process which placed her under the propriety of several owners, and different ports of registry (in Portugal she has been registed first at Ponta Delgada, Horta - both in the Azores and later at Lisbon).
Yes no doubt she is completing this year 180 years old!

The schooner "Dolphin" of 1832 had the following dimensions:
Lenght perpendiculars 26,70 mtrs and beam 6,60 mtrs
The schooner "Gaselle" of 1883 had the following dimensions:
Lenght perpendiculars 27,20 mtrs and beam 6,70 mtrs

The last document that I have got from her is a copy of the certificate of registry issued by the harbour master of the port of Lisbon, dated 15th April, 1939. In fact the certificate shows that the Gazela Primeiro was built in Portugal (place not disclosed) on 1883 and that she was rebuilt at Setubal on 1900.

However as I have written recently in my blog, I have also the register of the entrances of the "Gaselle" in the port of Horta, showing a different history. The ship had been there on the 17th March 1883 coming from Lisbon after a 11 days passage, loaded with general cargo. The ship had 7 crewmembers on board and was also transporting 180 passengers (!). Previous dimensions and
tonnages unchanged.
The ship has returned to the port of Horta on the 11th September 1883, coming from the island of Flores and the fishing, with 95 barrels of whale oil. At the occasion the ship sailed with 23 crewmembers and 2 passangers, during a voyage that lasted 94 days. Previous dimensions and tonnages were then altered to the values of 1883.
If we can imagine that the repair at Cacilhas (Lisbon) commenced on the 11th April 1883 and that the ship arrived at Horta on the 11th September that same year the time elapsed correspond exactly to 153 days less 94 days used during the trip until Horta remain exactly 2 months therefore not enough time to built a ship like her those days.
At last I would like to point out that the very first campaign the Gaselle has done to the banks was in 1897.

Very best regards to you all and a very merry x-mas,
Reinaldo Delgado