Shoreside Terminology Taking Over

Pompeyfan
12th August 2005, 01:10
As former crew of the 'line' voyage' era I had been told that below deck lingo we used had long since died out. However, it was not until a cruise on Aurora in December last year, and Oriana in June of this year that I realised to my horror that shoreside language has completely taken over on board. It was my first time back to sea since 1975, and how things have changed. Nothing is sacred, not even the ship itself which all passengers called a boat. But not once did I hear basic shipboard words like deck, or bulkhead. Even the captain referred to decks as floors in announcements, and the staffy told us another ship was backing into the berth which is why we were held up. I always thought ships went astern?. Crew talk to passengers in language they understand. So it dawned on me how passengers would cope in an emergency when crew, especially deck crew would go into automatic mode using correct terminology. They would not have time to translate to shorside words. Most passengers had no idea which side starboard or port was or indeed that the front was a bow, and the back the stern. Is it me, or has nautical terminology died out?. And if it has, should we allow it because cruise companies do not seem to bother?. P&O call their ships superliners, but to my knowledge none of the new vessels have ever plied a 'line voyage' so are most certainly not liners. We had our own language below decks years ago, long since died out. But hitting at the very fabric of nautical vocabluary including the ship itself just to please the modern day cruiser is a different matter altogether in my book. What do other members think?.David Cole

trotterdotpom
12th August 2005, 06:00
How about a glossary of the below deck jargon for the benefit of the 'bloods' David?

John T.

Pompeyfan
12th August 2005, 14:34
Yes of course. No doubt others will find more. My concerns are of course two-fold. 1. Jargon we used on line voyages especially. 2. The demise of general nautical vocabulary due entirely to modern day cruising which could have dire consequences if allowed to contiinue. Anyway, some of the jargon we used. Lets see what the bloods think and others who I may jog a few memories and find words that I have forgotten. Excuse spelling which may be wrong. So what is a:

WINGER
PEAK BOY
DHOBI
DHOBI WHALLER
SUBS
JOE BAKSI
SLOPS
SLOP SHOP
PRS (don't think they use that term now)
BRS (or this but both still on board)
SECTION WAITER
WELFY
CHIEF PANTRYMAN
CHIEF SERANG

There are others which other members may come up with and some words which may not be politically correct now but connected to the last two ranks now no longer on board but the crew they represented are still with P&O and in far larger numbers than in my day.

And who remembers what ALLSOPS were on P&O ships?. And what does: WHAT FASHION THIS BOBBA mean?!!. Answers later. David Cole

John Rogers
12th August 2005, 14:46
How about 'Dumping The Rosie", "The Peggy, " BlackGang" Blackpan, Dumping the Ashes, PortHoles, Duckboards. There is a few for your list.
John

Fairfield
12th August 2005, 19:22
I think it/s a malaise of modern business run concerns that nautical terminology is disappearing.Managers nowadays change employers so much now one just seems like another-one week in charge of a chain of shops,next in charge of a shipping company instead of working their way up the proverbial ladder.No-one seems to remain in one jobs for long and I know when I tell 25-40 age group I had the same job more or less for 30+ years and others for 50 sometimes,they just look amazed.

Alan Hill
12th August 2005, 20:30
Unfortunately, at least in the US Navy, the aircraft carrier types have been calling a 1000 plus foot long thing with 6000 crewmen/women on board a "boat" for quite a while now. Some magazines like the ones put out by the National Maritime Historical Society and the Steamship Historical Society still adhere to the traditional words though. Alan Hill Bridgeport, Pa. USA

Santos
12th August 2005, 20:46
With reference to the word boat, I must admit that in the sixties, we often used to refer to ships as boats eg, Harrison boat, Clan boat, Ellerman boat. The word boat was used I felt as an endearment rather than misused, because we always refered to our ' ship ' or ' the ship I am on '.and to confuse matters more, heard loads and loads of times, " Whats that ship over there ? " " Its a Harrison boat etc ".

It seemed to apply to certain lines though, I never heard of a Cunard boat, but I did hear of a Cunarder and Blue Funnel were never Blue Funnel boats, but ' One of Blueys ' or ' a Bluey '.

Was it a regional thing, I dont know, but in Liverpool thats what we used to say.

Just as a bit of info, once heard the Master at Arms of the old Ark Royal refer to her as his ' War Canoe '

Chris.

Pompeyfan
12th August 2005, 20:56
Those are all new words to me Doug. Great. That is what it is all about. As long as we are around, below deck language will never die even if best part of the population have no idea what we are talking about?!.

As for maliase Paul, yes, it certainly is. For cruise companies it is all about profit. They don't seem to care a less that their ships are no more than floating hotels with language to match. Having written to one company having sailed with them recently, I was told that they took safety seriously, but were happy with the mixture of shoreside and nautical terminology on board. I wrote back saying that was rubbish because on board ship it should be ALL nautical terminology. There is no room in any profession for mixing with something else. And there lies the problem. In due course there will be an incident on a cruise ship due most likely to such sloppiness. It is only than that they will do something about it. Living on the Isle of Wight we have accidents every year when people take to the sea with no nautical experience at all. That alone should prove shoreside and the sea don't mix be it language or whatever be it a small rowing boat or large cruise ship. The rules of the sea are the same. David Cole

Pompeyfan
12th August 2005, 21:14
Chris, you are right. We in P&O referred to the Orient ships as O boats. But it was slang, and we knew it was slang. The problem is that best part of the population these days think all ships are also boats. They are not taught any different despite most dictionaries clearly stating the difference. Captains I worked with always became very angry if passengers called their ship a boat. One captain told a passenger that the only boat connected to his ship were lifeboats. They saw it as an insult to call a fine passenger liner or cruise ship a boat.

As for the US carriers Alan, it is the same problem. People would call them boats because they do not know any different. The only vessels in any navy known nautically as boats are submarines. Boat is of course attached to smaller naval vessels as well as merchant such as slang for Banana Boat. But I was always told by master mariners that ships have covered decks, a boat does not. And ships carry boats, boats do not carry ships. I think there are other technical reasons separating the two. But once again sloppiness is giving people the wrong idea thinking it perfectly acceptable to call a ship a boat when they hear nautical people doing likewise. Bad habits spread as they say?!. David Cole

Santos
12th August 2005, 21:31
David,

I agree with all you say --- I think it is a good job we all dont live for ever, as its difficult now after only a few years to come to terms with and cope with, falling standards. I listen to people extolling the virtues of peoples freedom and the new liberalisation of life. Its a load of Stow High In Transit, its just laziness, cheapness and lack of ethical standards.

I am sick of it all, its called progress people tell me. As far as I am concerned its all going downhill rapidly and needs hauling back from the brink.

Chris.

John Rogers
12th August 2005, 23:19
I couldn't agree more Chris, its the decay of civilization. I see people wearing those darn hats back wards and they think they are so cool,also wearing hats in a restaurant or indoors,if I ever done that as a young lad my ears would be slapped and to hell with PC.
John

thunderd
13th August 2005, 01:03
WE always called our ships Ben boats because that slipped off the tongue easier that Ben Line ships. Having said that if somebody ashore asked us which boat we were on our reply was "we are on a ship that carries boat called lifeboats".

Pompeyfan
13th August 2005, 01:26
I quite agree Deryk, we knew what we meant. As I said, it was slang and slipped of the tongue easier as you say. But others mean to call a ship a boat. That is the difference. Here on the Isle of Wight people often ask me which boat I am going over on. I tell them I never cross on a boat. I go on the ferry instead!. David

John Rogers
13th August 2005, 01:38
Called a Ferry Boat.?????

Pompeyfan
13th August 2005, 23:16
Not the car ferries on the island route, they are all ships. We have car ferries, catamarans and hovercraft. The latter is neither a ship or boat of course. Tonight, QE2, Arcadia and Legend Of The Seas all went out as we headed across the Solent from Pompey. And what did all passengers on the catamaran say: " Looks at those nice boats. At the top of my voice I shouted SHIPS!. David Cole

oldbosun
14th August 2005, 14:12
Some of the old words and sayings are still in my head to this day. A few weeks ago I was explaining a near road accident to a friend and without thinking I said " ........and it seemed out of nowhwere this car just shot right across my bow........".

Some of those terms are imprinted it seems forever.

I can remember using sea terms at home between voyages. One couldn't just suddenly switch to "shoresidespeak" after being amongst guys for months on end who use the same sea terms as oneself.

I can distinctly remember thinking about 'going ashore' when the object was to go to the pub.

Still thought of 'going ontop' when I was going upstairs.

Asked my Mum to do a bit of dhobying for me.

And so on. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has words and sayings imprinted and must still consciously sometimes avoid using them.

I have heard about modern times 'floors' and 'stairs', 'front and back', 'left and right' and all I think is it's their loss, but not their fault. It's change and change has always been with us.

Incidently, I have been at the wheel on numerous occasions in American waters as well as Panama canal, when 'left and right' was used by American pilots.

trotterdotpom
14th August 2005, 15:15
Not the car ferries on the island route, they are all ships. We have car ferries, catamarans and hovercraft. The latter is neither a ship or boat of course. Tonight, QE2, Arcadia and Legend Of The Seas all went out as we headed across the Solent from Pompey. And what did all passengers on the catamaran say: " Looks at those nice boats. At the top of my voice I shouted SHIPS!. David Cole

Well done David, hope they didn't throw anything at you. You reminded me of travelling to Southampton from Cowes on a hovercraft (24 seater) in about 1966 - first of the kind in the world. I was really impressed and pretty bounced around too. Knocked about an hour and a half off the ferry's time. I was fairly easily impressed in those days!

John T.

trotterdotpom
14th August 2005, 15:25
Some of the old words and sayings are still in my head to this day....
Incidently, I have been at the wheel on numerous occasions in American waters as well as Panama canal, when 'left and right' was used by American pilots.

Tell me about it. I've been ashore for 13 years and now work in a prison. Imagine the looks I get when I call a cell "cabin"!

Another thing I do is obsessively wedge all my beer in the fridge - still panicking about it rolling about.

Re the Canal, what about Leslie Phillips in "The Navy Lark" (BBC radio every Sunday afternoon, just after the Yorkshire Puddings, early '60s) - "Left hand down a bit, helmsman."

John T.

Pompeyfan
14th August 2005, 23:40
Yes, "The Navy Lark" was great. It is not peoples fault Oldbosun, but we former seafarers are letting language change without a fight. Well, I am not, but some are. I don't believe in giving in by saying that times change. It only changes if we let it. Somebody once told me that times move on and that I should accept the term 'Cruise Liner'. I most certainly will not because unless the vessel has plied a 'line voyage' she will never be a liner because cruise and line voyages are totally different trades. Also, to change language just to suit modern times is an insult to out nautical ancestors in my opinion. They invented liner and many other terms. And they sailed in the original liners as they opened up trade with the rest of the world. Liners in those days were sailing ships many of whom foundered with great loss of life. We owe it to our brave ancestors to preserve nautical terminology that they invented and lost their lives for and not just give in by saying that changes are acceptable. They are most certainly not.

Yes, I remember that hovercraft John. The only service now is from Southsea to Ryde. David Cole

thunderd
15th August 2005, 01:15
When I owned a boat in Brisbane I used to run it like a little ship. When we approached the marina I used to tell the family to "stand by fore and aft" and they used to say "Dad do you mean we're going to tie the boat up?" I'd then start another of my boring lectures.

Ended up selling the boat because my family wouldn't go out with me any more they reckoned I was a bad tempered old Captain Bligh.

My friends called me Captain Sandbank because I was on first name terms with every sandbank in Moreton Bay.

mcook
15th August 2005, 01:21
When I was taking flying lessons, the rules of the road were nearly the same
as those for ships at sea. Much to the annoyance of my instructor, when he said
bank left or right, I always replied 'Okay, banking to port (or starboard). I just could
not bring myself to say it any other way! Just about the only nautical term
you could not apply to flying was 'Full astern'!!

thunderd
15th August 2005, 01:31
When I was taking flying lessons, the rules of the road were nearly the same
as those for ships at sea. Much to the annoyance of my instructor, when he said
bank left or right, I always replied 'Okay, banking to port (or starboard). I just could
not bring myself to say it any other way! Just about the only nautical term
you could not apply to flying was 'Full astern'!!

Makes the term "going down below" a bit scary doesn't it?

John Rogers
15th August 2005, 01:52
There was always that strong head wind.
John

thunderd
15th August 2005, 02:00
Have you been playing with the "stick" again John?

John Rogers
15th August 2005, 02:41
I say old chap thats kind of personal.

Tell you what Derek I would rather play in a small boat (45 ft) than a plane.
John

thunderd
15th August 2005, 02:51
I agree with that young John, mine was 36 feet of penis extention. At least in a boat you have some chance of survival if something goes wrong I don't fancy being up there at 5000 feet desperately flapping my arms.

mcook
15th August 2005, 04:39
Cowards!

And I hadn't even mentioned the parachute course!!!

John Rogers
15th August 2005, 14:27
Did that for 10 years and all I got out of it was new steel knee joints.
John.

Peter Fielding
17th August 2005, 10:53
I agree with all the comments deploring the "shoresideation" (have I invented a new word?) of nautical terms. As far as I'm concerned, my house has decks, bulkheads and deckheads, gashbuckets and rosies, and the memsahib does the dhobi, with dhobi-dust. And these are not affectations, I simply haven't got out of the habit of using terms which I learnt at sea because failure to use the proper terminology was regarded as very bad form. I occasionally get some funny looks, but I don't give a Stow High In Transit!
Peter.

cboots
23rd August 2005, 06:59
My seagoing career spanned the mid-sixties to the end of the seventies and I sailed on cargo ships, tankers and bulk carriers, deep sea and coastal, with several UK shipping companies and laterly a couple of foreign ones. I can only speak from my experience which, albeit quite broad, does not encompass the "big white floating gin palaces" of P & O or anyone else. We always used the term boat and it was totally inter-changeable with ship; it was always my belief that the objection to the term boat was a naval thing and nothing to do with the merchant industry. I have found in my reading of the mags and cruising the websites an increasing navalisation of the jargon, the best example being the dropping of the definite article before a ship's name. We always used the definite article in refering to a ship, if you had not done so we would have thought you had a speech impediment. I was reading an article in "Ships Monthly" recently which in describing a small coaster referred to the position of the "heads". Again a naval expression, I never sailed on a merchant ship that had a head and I don't think I need to repeat here what the usual term was. There is/was a merchant tradition quite apart from that of the navy and it is a proud tradition and I for one see no need to borrow from the navy.
It should also be remembered that the Americans have their own tradition and it too is different from ours. Personally I cannot help but recall with affection the tall, lean Texan pilot, resplendent in stetson, cowboy boots and bootlace tie telling the helmsman to "Jus give her lill bit a right hand there boy." Again who can doubt the seamanship skills of the Panama Canal pilots and it was not diminished by talking of right rudder instead of our prefered starboard helm.
The sole point of language is to convey meaningful information and professional jargon is really nothing more than trade shorthand. Thus when the trade changes so will it. The modern cruise liner, which is just a resort that moves around from place to place, with its masses of contracted crew in various non-nautical functions, is going to use a different set of jargon to what we used. It might offend our sense of nostalgia, but it is inevitable.
CBoots

Bob
23rd August 2005, 11:06
Just been on a cruise and not once did we get any "tabnabs' got some cake and biscuits though,and your all quite right the terminaology has changed.how ever the boats v ships, there always was "Banana boats" and China Boats I am sure there is moreCheers Bob

Pompeyfan
23rd August 2005, 11:20
Some of you are missing my original point I think. We used the term boat at sea when meaning ship, but it was slang and we knew it was slang. Those shore side genuinly think a ship is a boat. It is not their fault, but the fact they are not taught correct terminology unless they went to sea, and even then they may ignore it. The fact is that you cannot change the professional jargon of any profession without good reason, and with the permission of that profession. A ship will never be a cruise liner however much language changes because both are totally different trades. We do not have the right to change the meaning of liner. Our ancestors who invented the term sailed in the original liners which were sailing ships as they opened up trade with the rest of the world. These ships were very flimsy and many foundered losing all life on board. It would be arrogance beyond belief to change the meaning of liner just to suit modern crusing because it would be the greatest insult we could bestow on those brave pinoneers. A liner voyage is not a cruise. Liner comes from line as our ancestors inteneded, not from cruise. Liner is a trade name, it has nothing to do with the ship itself but the trade she is plying. People use the term cruise liner because they are not aware of the history. If they are, and still use it then sorry, I cannot agree with that. Once aboard a ship shore side terminology should stay shore side. If people don't agree with that then why the hell are they interested in ships in the first place. Perhaps they should find another hobby and insult them by changing their jargon and see how they like it?!. David Cole

Pompeyfan
23rd August 2005, 11:44
Yes Bob there are loads more, but it is slang. We know that, but best part of the population don't. It is not getting poncey as Dave M suggests but fact. I am a medical professional, and I have known litterally hundreds of people die because they did not know the correct words to use or to understand their condition to summon help. So when people rib me as a poncey git they may stop and think that getting words wrong in some situations can be fatal. And although getting nautical terminology wrong such as port and starboard (not too sure what larbord is) will not lose lives, it could in one way I suppose if the ship was going down and passengers don't have a clue where to go due to not knowing shipboard terminology, the ship won't wait to sink before they work out where to go to the lifeboat?!.

What cruise ship were you on Bob. And did you takes any pics to post?.

John Rogers
23rd August 2005, 14:06
Definitions?? When you cruise the Red Sea in a Vessel/ boat you are cruising in a ship no matter if you are on a Liner or Cruise ship,I see no difference. And they are all called Cruise Lines a commercial name. (Trade shorthand! I like that term cboots)
John

Pompeyfan
23rd August 2005, 16:09
I agree with you totally Dave which may surprise you?!. I have been through major heart surgery, and like you have better things to worry about. But that does not stop me standing up for what I know is right be it preserving the jargon of the nautical profession, or my own medical profession.

The difference is the trade John be it the Red Sea or an ocean. Line voyages cross oceans which is why ferries on regular routes are not liners. When Canberra returned from Australia in December 1972, her master, Wally Vickers told us that Canberra had ceased to be a liner and would become a full time cruise ship. It was only then that I knew there was a difference and asked him and others to explain. A liner does not cruise in the sense of the word. The ship is travelling on the same line taking passengers or cargo or both to a specific destination. It is exacly the same as an airliner transporting passengers and cargo or both to a specific destination just as you would on a train or bus. And note that passenger aircraft are called airLINERS. Line voyages cross oceans not seas. There is a difference, but I can see it is total waste of time as so many seafarers and master mariners past and present keep telling me. But I don't give in that easily. and the term shipping LINES came from the same source, LINE voyages. This is where it all began. Now can you see what I am trying to get at?!!. Lines or liner is not commercial, it is a trade name. The only difference is the name of the company, Cunard Line or P&O or whatever. David

Douglas Dashwood-Howard
23rd August 2005, 16:18
With reference to the word boat, I must admit that in the sixties, we often used to refer to ships as boats eg, Harrison boat, Clan boat, Ellerman boat. The word boat was used I felt as an endearment rather than misused, because we always refered to our ' ship ' or ' the ship I am on '.and to confuse matters more, heard loads and loads of times, " Whats that ship over there ? " " Its a Harrison boat etc ".

It seemed to apply to certain lines though, I never heard of a Cunard boat, but I did hear of a Cunarder and Blue Funnel were never Blue Funnel boats, but ' One of Blueys ' or ' a Bluey '.

Was it a regional thing, I dont know, but in Liverpool thats what we used to say.

Just as a bit of info, once heard the Master at Arms of the old Ark Royal refer to her as his ' War Canoe '

Chris.
Just to confuse matters, my seafaring Dad (Brocklebank) titled one of his photos in an album compiled in the early 1930s:

"Blue Funnel Boat - Colombo"!

And it was a photo of the steamship herself, not one of her lifeboats!

Douglas

Pompeyfan
23rd August 2005, 16:31
You are quite right Douglas, but it is slang. This is the difference. Most seafarers and enthusiasts know this, but others don't. At P&O, we used to call the Orient ships O Boats, including me and Union Castle Cape Boats. But when I was aboard Oriana recently passengers was referring to her as a boat because they knew no different. And there lies the problem. If of course others see it as a problem. I do, but I seem to be in a minority and have to accept that nautical terminology across the board will eventually die altogether because we are letting it by not bothering to educate others and even arguing as to whether it really matters. David

R58484956
23rd August 2005, 16:33
Cheer up David, pompey might win on saturday, like soton did last night.

Pompeyfan
23rd August 2005, 16:36
We are playing tonight. So I could be in an even worse mood tomorrow?!!. I don't use the S word?!. David

John Rogers
23rd August 2005, 17:44
Pompey, I agree when the term is used that way, airliner and ships with a regular route.
John.

lakercapt
23rd August 2005, 18:43
A sad fact of life that we elder seaman are considered as dinosours and our ways are looked on with sadness.
Don't tell a modern seaman to avast heaving as he would assume you were speaking Hindi. Now its whoo!
A combe is more likely to be carried in the back pocket as a knife. Course some have a copy of the union contract.
My car registration is 4 AN AFT and most don't know what it is.
We were at dinner the other day and the word POSH came up. Had to explain that this was it was an old nautical expression from the days before A/C was on ships when the rich and influential passengers were allotted cabins on the port side outward bound and starboard homeward bound hence P.O.S.H. This because the tended to be cooler and more comfortable in the tropics.
We are all a fund of what many consider usless information but when we as a family used to play trival persuit or the like games it took a lot of convincing to assure everyone that we had not read the answers.
Regards
Bill Ross

Marcus Cardew
23rd August 2005, 18:49
According to Mrs. C. who has been subjected to most craft between 8ft Tenders and 65,000 tonners, to her a 'Ship' is what you climb up a gangway onto, 'Boats' are what you step down into ( and don't have sound proof loo's (sorry, Head's))

Paul Murphy
23rd August 2005, 18:51
I'm being educated please do carry on......

Pat McCardle
23rd August 2005, 22:44
Those are all new words to me Doug. Great. That is what it is all about. As long as we are around, below deck language will never die even if best part of the population have no idea what we are talking about?!.

As for maliase Paul, yes, it certainly is. For cruise companies it is all about profit. They don't seem to care a less that their ships are no more than floating hotels with language to match. Having written to one company having sailed with them recently, I was told that they took safety seriously, but were happy with the mixture of shoreside and nautical terminology on board. I wrote back saying that was rubbish because on board ship it should be ALL nautical terminology. There is no room in any profession for mixing with something else. And there lies the problem. In due course there will be an incident on a cruise ship due most likely to such sloppiness. It is only than that they will do something about it. Living on the Isle of Wight we have accidents every year when people take to the sea with no nautical experience at all. That alone should prove shoreside and the sea don't mix be it language or whatever be it a small rowing boat or large cruise ship. The rules of the sea are the same. David Cole

If there is an incident on a cruise ship, or any ship for that matter, what happens? Everyone panics in his/her native language!!

Coastie
24th August 2005, 06:01
When I was doing my training to be a CWA I had a trip over on the Ulysses, but had to write up a report about it, where the muster stations are, where the emergency plans were shown etc.
After I'd prepared my report I showed it to one of my colleagues who had been a ships Captain and was told that "ships had BULKHEADS NOT WALLS"!!! I soon learned!!

Douglas Dashwood-Howard
24th August 2005, 10:40
The one thing that gets me is the people who wear sunglasses on the top of their head, I know that when we were kids 60+years ago my mum had eyes in the back of her head, not on top
Amusing comments about sunglasses pushed up onto the head, and baseball cappies worn the wrong way round, particularly indoors!
The superlative is, of course a cappy worn not only the wrong way round but at the same time on the skew with the peak to one side - and with the sunglasses on top of the head into the bargain. That's really ultra-cool!
---------
Douglas

Bob
24th August 2005, 11:58
Hi Pompeyfan, we cruised on the "Pacific Sun" ex Jubilee of Carnival Lines who now control P&O we did the South pacific Islands, from Sydney will try to post a Pic with the ship at anchor at Divine Island New Caladonia. Cheers Bob Having trouble in posting the pic!!!!

Pompeyfan
24th August 2005, 13:15
Bob, I had trouble first in posting pics. You go to Gallery, then click on Quick links at the top right, and then click on My Gallery. You should be able to see how to do it then. Pacific Sun has only just began cruising from Sydney I think joining Pacific Sky. A fiend of mine, another Bob lives in Sydney and sends me pics from Circular Quay but he is in England at the moment. Would like to see your pictures. Do you live in Sydney?. David Cole

cboots
24th August 2005, 13:43
I well recall the head of navigation at my old pre-sea training establishment telling us bright eyed boys that a ship was a three masted sailing vessel square rigged on all three. He was right of course, but language changes and, outside of a small band of enthusiasts of sailing vessels, no one takes the term ship to mean that anymore. In my time at sea a liner was a ship that plied a fixed route, be it with cargo, passengers, or both, as opposed to a tramp which had its itinery set by inducement. However, that was twenty five years ago, and if the term liner is now accepted as meaning something else by the majority of those using the term, then that is its meaning. Personally I have never felt the slightest desire to go a cruising, but had I been persuaded to part with the mega bucks that one is charged for such a privilege, I would feel perfectly entitled to use what terminology that I damn well liked, and should some pedantic smart-ass start telling me otherwise, I would feel rather inclined to "chuck them over the wall."
CBoots

Pompeyfan
24th August 2005, 14:35
Sorry cboots, but it is that kind of attitude that the nautical profession finds itself in today. The original meaning of liner has been lost because people have allowed it to, and it would seem that you are one of those people. I take great offence in being braned a smart ass or any other name you may come up with. You cannot change history. Of course language moves on, but not to the extent when the very foundations of a profession are eroded. Lloyds list Newspaper printed every day has Liner section which today only features cargo ships with the exception of Queen Mary 2. I shall be writing to the editor to tell him he is a smart ass who should be chucked over the wall. What an outrageous thing to say. You may not agree with the point of view of other members, but there is no need to insult them or thraten to throw them over board. For all memebrs not too sure what chucking over the wall means, it means throwing over board. And I don't think the moderators of Ships Nostalgia would take too kindly to that either?. This site is for people views and information. If memebrs want to insult others then I suggest they go elswhere. I certainly will if it continues. David

Santos
24th August 2005, 21:36
David,

Dont take it personally, I would like to think at this stage that the remark was made as a general observation rather than personally with you in mind.

I do disagree entirely with the views however as I agree entirely with your observations. I hold dear my memories and the fact that I was a professional amongst professionals. The language and terminology was part of the job and everyone knew what everyone was talking about and doing, which made for safety as well.

It now appears that the sheep syndrom takes preference and things that were once held dear are either ignored, forgotten or become the object of derision.

It does surprise me that a past mariner of that era holds those views however thats life I am afraid. I have been accused once before on this site of being too nostalgic towards my life at sea, however I just showed my computer monitor two fingers, which made me feel better, and I am still here batting away.

Oops nearly mentioned the Ashes again and that we won the second test and drew the third one - Oh Dear, Derek will be telling me off.

Must go, (Night) stick around David, your needed.

Chris.

John Rogers
24th August 2005, 21:59
The Great White Fleet (Elders & Fyffes) were nicknamed 'Banana Boats" the had a fixed route,carried passengers and a cargo of bananas, never heard them called "Liners" The crew called them "Skin Boats" knowing that they were ships. The Dockers at Avonmouth Dock called them "Plumb Boats" named because they brought money into their pockets PLUMB PICKINGS"in the 1930s depression. There is some more Nostalgia/Trivia for you.
John

michael james
24th August 2005, 22:12
David,
Chris has so ably duplicated my thoughts on this subject, but I do wish to underline the statement "do not take this personally" it could have been worded better by c boots but I am sure he intended no insult or malicious intent, purely a figure of speach without forethought..

Having said that - I agree with your observations in their entirety, language does change with the generations but the history and usage over centuries, of maritime words and phrases should not be lost. I still refer to a ceiling as a deckhead, my family think I am nuts - it will remain a deckhead until I am gone - after which they can call it any name they like!

Pompeyfan
25th August 2005, 00:01
Thanks for your kind words Chris and Mike J. As for others not having the slightest desire to go cruising, I don't undestand them. My reason for going on a cruise on Oriana in June was pure nostalgia. For a glorious week, I went home. Okay, a modern day cruise is a world away from line voyages, and a totally different type of crew. But the ship, though modern is basically the same. So it was literally like going home. As for mega bucks, I don't have them. What I DO have is massive debt. But after life saving surgery and indeed my former job I was taught a very important lesson. You can't take your money OR your debt with you. So to hell with it. While I am well enough to do so I am going to enjoy my second chance of life that means going back home to sea next year, again on Oriana and again more debt!. David

Santos
25th August 2005, 00:05
Well said David,

There are no pockets in shrouds and who wants to be the richest person in the graveyard anyway. Enjoy while you can. Happy cruising mate, take plenty of pics and post them on here.

Chris.

thunderd
25th August 2005, 00:47
David,

Dont take it personally, I would like to think at this stage that the remark was made as a general observation rather than personally with you in mind.

I do disagree entirely with the views however as I agree entirely with your observations. I hold dear my memories and the fact that I was a professional amongst professionals. The language and terminology was part of the job and everyone knew what everyone was talking about and doing, which made for safety as well.

It now appears that the sheep syndrom takes preference and things that were once held dear are either ignored, forgotten or become the object of derision.

It does surprise me that a past mariner of that era holds those views however thats life I am afraid. I have been accused once before on this site of being too nostalgic towards my life at sea, however I just showed my computer monitor two fingers, which made me feel better, and I am still here batting away.

Oops nearly mentioned the Ashes again and that we won the second test and drew the third one - Oh Dear, Derek will be telling me off.

Must go, (Night) stick around David, your needed.

Chris.

Well Chris we may be bitter enemies at cricket but I will till the day I die share your passionate and unashamed nostalgia for my days at sea they were a highlight of my life.

Duffers Drift
25th August 2005, 05:20
Can someone please tell me where I can get some red oil and some green oil to put in the port and starboard lamps please? You know which lamps I mean don't you-those on the left and right of the ship when looking forward.

cboots
25th August 2005, 06:13
I fear that our Pompeyfan does protest too much, my posted comments were no more directed at him than were my remarks on liners at the splendid array of barques, brigs and Liverpool snows currently tied up in Swanson docks. As to the pages of Lloyd's List, I fear that they are unlikely to be read by the bloods paying their money to holiday onboard the Oriana or any other cruise liner/ship/boat/gin palace etc.
CBoots

thunderd
25th August 2005, 08:47
David (pompeyfan) started this thread bemoaning the fact that the nautical terminology we all knew was being lost. I also would be sad to see it dying completely.

But, and it's a big but, think about an emergency situation on a passenger ship when it is time to hit the lifeboats. What do you say to a person who has never been to sea before "go aft, turn to port at the last bulkhead go up to the boat deck and go to number 3 lifeboat on the starboard side, read the launching instructions attached to the davits" etc etc

Now I know that example is a bit dramatic and silly but it's the best I could think of at the time, the point is that in an emergency you need to get everyone to comply with your instructions in the safest and most orderly manner, that's what saves lives, and whatever terminology you need to use is the right one.

Again I agree don't let our terminology die but always remember who we are talking to.

R798780
25th August 2005, 10:15
David,
I still refer to a ceiling as a deckhead, my family think I am nuts - it will remain a deckhead until I am gone - after which they can call it any name they like!
I think my children were bi-lingual. Even the grandchildren look up when I mention the deckhead, and reach for the wellies when I say sea-boots - even if they do have spiderman on the sides!

Pompeyfan
25th August 2005, 11:18
Well, said Deryk, put far better than I could. I think cboots has misunderstood what I am trying to say. I am not protesting. I can simply see a problem that others seem to be missing. Many years ago a very wise man who had spent 32 years in the Royal Navy with more ribbons than any other crew member on board including the captain spent his remaining years at sea in the medical department because he could not bare to stay ashore when he left the RN. What this man did not know about sea life whether RN or merchant was not worth knowing. But he taught me something that can apply to any profession which was if you are 100% certain of your facts, you can argue with anyone. If not 100% certain, keep either quiet or put your views over as opinion, not fact. That was certainly very useful in my medical career because I often had to make decisions that affected peoples lives. When it comes to nautical matters I am 100% certain about my facts as to the origin of liner and others areas that concern me. When aboard Oriana in June I naturally compared life on board to that of my era. Safety wise, I can foresee a massive problem. But companies and others concerned with safety at sea won't listen. It will not be until there is a disaster that they will do something. That is life I am afraid which is why I tried to draw a paralel with health because I have seen literally hundreds of needless deaths simply because people refused to listen thinking they knew best and that people like me were idiots living in the past or whatever insults they cared to use. Many accidents on my own patch has lead to measures to prevent others. A bit late after the horse has bolted which is my entire argument. As for Lloyds list, my point there was that this newspaper sticks to correct terminology. I certainly can't afford it, but it can be read in most libraries. Although having said that, they have stopped using SHE. I don't understand that other than the crazy political correct world we now live in. David

R58484956
25th August 2005, 14:08
In todays local paper,QM2 151400tons worlds biggest passenger liner
Freedom of the Seas 158000 tons worlds biggest cruise ship.
Take it from there Gentlemen.

robbo
25th August 2005, 14:09
I fear that our Pompeyfan does protest too much, my posted comments were no more directed at him than were my remarks on liners at the splendid array of barques, brigs and Liverpool snows currently tied up in Swanson docks. As to the pages of Lloyd's List, I fear that they are unlikely to be read by the bloods paying their money to holiday onboard the Oriana or any other cruise liner/ship/boat/gin palace etc.
CBoots


CBoots, you mention Swanson docks, is that the one next to Appleton near Coode Island???? (*))
Robbo

Pompeyfan
25th August 2005, 21:43
That newspaper was spot on. Queen Mary 2 was the first passenger liner built since QE2 because she would take over the trans-Atlantic line voyage between cruising, And yes, Freedom of the Seas is currently the biggest cruise ship I believe. Well done that newspaper. I am not so daft after all?!!! (Thumb) David

oldbosun
25th August 2005, 21:46
Hmm.........Surely it is all academic, because historically, seamen of all nations had their own terminology and never gave a hoot what shoreside people thought about it. When I sailed passenger ships or even CARGO LINERS that carried some passengers, our terminology was never changed to suit the passengers and we spoke "Shipspeak" ashore, in pubs overseas, at home, anywhere that you were amongst other seamen. I do to this day when I'm amongst those who know what I'm referring to.

What I wouldn't like seeing, hearing, is modern seafarers using those shoreside terms to other seafarers. A deck may be a floor to a passenger or someone who doesn't see the water when the ship is at sea, thats fair enough, but to a seaman a deck should be a deck. The galley deck is still the galley deck to a galleyboy. Thats what he scrubs. A deck not a floor.

But from what I read, it's happening and they don't care. So many ancient seafaring words disappeared long before any of us went to sea, so I guess it's all part of 'moving on' sadly enough.

So many other traditions disappear for the sake of political correctness.
What about the RN's tot. Someone decided to cut it out and give the matelots a tanner a day instead. Are the tanker deck crowds still getting their daily tot when tank cleaning these days?. I'd be interested to know but I guarantee the answer would be "No, they get an extra half hour to play games on the messroom computer". (Pint)
We don't have to agree to these changes, but history has indeed proved changes to be inevitable. I for one would like all things to be in a 40's 50's time warp, but of course thats daydreaming. Things will change and thats all there is too it. (Sad to say)

Santos
25th August 2005, 22:03
Well Chris we may be bitter enemies at cricket but I will till the day I die share your passionate and unashamed nostalgia for my days at sea they were a highlight of my life.


Derek, you, me, cricket enemies, never, rivals for a little urn, more like. The best team on the day will win, and good luck to all of them. ( you can tell I have had my pills cant you, these new ones are blue, begin with a v, still enough of that )

Thanks for your kind words re my maritime nostalgia. I never really thought of growing old in those days or how, in later years those moments I was living then, would become so important to me. I am so glad I went to sea. I am even more glad that I saw most of the world when it was at peace and not in turmoil as it is now. You could walk down the streets without fear of being shot or blown up in most foreign and home ports, rolled ( mugged ) possibly, but not shot or blown up.

My only regret is that I did not take enough pictures of my trips and ships. I have very few photos and I think that is why my memories are so important to me.

Kind regards

Chris.

thunderd
26th August 2005, 00:13
Chris very eloquently put you echo my sentiments exactly in each of your statements.

Pompeyfan
26th August 2005, 00:20
I agree with everything you say Olbosun, but with shoreside language so rife aboard cruise ships nowadays I can foresee a safety issue. Shoreside people no longer give a hoot about nautical terminology or what we former seafarers think about it. The situation has turned full circle. Allowing the demise of nautical terminology etc etc because we have accepted without a fight that language moves could one day backfire big time when there is a disaster at sea. But mankind is past masters at working out what we should have done in hindsight. I am often being put down for seeing a problem before it happens or whatever insult others like to throw at me. So what is best, seeing a problem before it happens with the benefit of experience from ageing seafarers like ourselves, or giving into modern times and those with different ideas then start bleating in hindsight after an accident has happened?!. David

trotterdotpom
26th August 2005, 02:12
......What about the RN's tot. Someone decided to cut it out and give the matelots a tanner a day instead.....

There are probably only old codgers like us who remember what a 'tanner' is, Old Bosun. A lot of the youngsters probably think you're referring back to "rum, sodomy and the lash!"

The English language is in a continuous state of flux everywhere, not much we can do about it. However, years ago, I banned Sesame Street when the kids started saying 'Zee' instead of 'Zed'!

To Santos, I agree with your sentiments too. Fortunately, we still have the memories, this week anyway.....!

John T.

PS Where did the word 'condoms' suddenly come from? In my day, they were 'blocks of flats".

cboots
26th August 2005, 03:40
CBoots, you mention Swanson docks, is that the one next to Appleton near Coode Island???? (*))
Robbo

Yes quite correct. They are the two principal container berths in the Port of Melbourne, one being operated by Patricks of union bashing fame, the other by P & O Ports. I should be able to tell you which is which but I cannot remember. Coode Island is nearby and is a tanker berth and tank storage area with some quite nasty stuff stored there, making it the attention of concerned local residents and subject to quite a bit of protest at times. It is an artificial island, of course, and owes its origins to the alterations made to the port, in the late 1800s I think, to prevent the port silting up. It takes its name from the pommy engineer employed to make the recommendations and laterly to carry out the work.
CBoots

Duffers Drift
26th August 2005, 04:46
There are probably only old codgers like us who remember what a 'tanner' is, Old Bosun. A lot of the youngsters probably think you're referring back to "rum, sodomy and the lash!"

The English language is in a continuous state of flux everywhere, not much we can do about it. However, years ago, I banned Sesame Street when the kids started saying 'Zee' instead of 'Zed'!

To Santos, I agree with your sentiments too. Fortunately, we still have the memories, this week anyway.....!

John T.

PS Where did the word 'condoms' suddenly come from? In my day, they were 'blocks of flats".

REQUIEM

'You soothed my nerves
And warmed my limbs
And cheered my dismal heart
Procured my wants, obliged my whims
And now it's time to part.

And so the time has come old friend
To take the final sup
Our tears are shed. This is the end
So goodbye and bottoms up.' (Cloud)

lakercapt
26th August 2005, 11:41
An aside from all that:
An elderly couple who had worked hard all their lives and never had a hoiday won a large sum of money on a lottery.
Their children recommended that they take a world cruise and spare no expense.
Paid a massive amount of cash for the first class accomodation.
On boarding the purser informedthem that they would be seated at the captains table.
What responded the old gent "$65,000 for a cruise and you want me to eat with the crew"

michael james
26th August 2005, 20:07
REQUIEM

'You soothed my nerves
And warmed my limbs
And cheered my dismal heart
Procured my wants, obliged my whims
And now it's time to part.

And so the time has come old friend
To take the final sup
Our tears are shed. This is the end
So goodbye and bottoms up.' (Cloud)


Duffers Drift, I recognise this but cannot place it. Have you knowledge of who wrote this ode ? Very fitting, well posted

Bob
9th September 2005, 10:41
Chris, you are right. We in P&O referred to the Orient ships as O boats. But it was slang, and we knew it was slang. The problem is that best part of the population these days think all ships are also boats. They are not taught any different despite most dictionaries clearly stating the difference. Captains I worked with always became very angry if passengers called their ship a boat. One captain told a passenger that the only boat connected to his ship were lifeboats. They saw it as an insult to call a fine passenger liner or cruise ship a boat.

As for the US carriers Alan, it is the same problem. People would call them boats because they do not know any different. The only vessels in any navy known nautically as boats are submarines. Boat is of course attached to smaller naval vessels as well as merchant such as slang for Banana Boat. But I was always told by master mariners that ships have covered decks, a boat does not. And ships carry boats, boats do not carry ships. I think there are other technical reasons separating the two. But once again sloppiness is giving people the wrong idea thinking it perfectly acceptable to call a ship a boat when they hear nautical people doing likewise. Bad habits spread as they say?!. David Cole
Greetings Pompeyfan, I think the American Navy call all their ships boats, I think the ones sunk at Pearl Harbour were Battle Boats. Cheers Bob

fred henderson
9th September 2005, 15:02
I agree with you totally Dave which may surprise you?!. I have been through major heart surgery, and like you have better things to worry about. But that does not stop me standing up for what I know is right be it preserving the jargon of the nautical profession, or my own medical profession.

The difference is the trade John be it the Red Sea or an ocean. Line voyages cross oceans which is why ferries on regular routes are not liners. When Canberra returned from Australia in December 1972, her master, Wally Vickers told us that Canberra had ceased to be a liner and would become a full time cruise ship. It was only then that I knew there was a difference and asked him and others to explain. A liner does not cruise in the sense of the word. The ship is travelling on the same line taking passengers or cargo or both to a specific destination. It is exacly the same as an airliner transporting passengers and cargo or both to a specific destination just as you would on a train or bus. And note that passenger aircraft are called airLINERS. Line voyages cross oceans not seas. There is a difference, but I can see it is total waste of time as so many seafarers and master mariners past and present keep telling me. But I don't give in that easily. and the term shipping LINES came from the same source, LINE voyages. This is where it all began. Now can you see what I am trying to get at?!!. Lines or liner is not commercial, it is a trade name. The only difference is the name of the company, Cunard Line or P&O or whatever. David

As I felt David that you are mainly concerned with the much more important question of safety at sea, I started a new thread about the definition "Liner". Nevertheless, I am no longer convinced by the Lloyds List distinction. I feel that although I personally still use the term "Cruise Ship", it is not correct in many cases. Unlike the Oriana, many cruise ships are employed on regular "line" voyages. For example pairs of ships sail from the Florida East Coast ports on alternate 6 day W Caribbean / 8 day E Caribbean voyages. One of the pair will sail from the same intermediate ports on the same day, each week, every week in the year. The passengers either book for one of the legs, or for a fortnight's voyage. I still think of these as cruise ships, but I cannot see any real difference between their operating pattern to that of QM2.

Fred

Pompeyfan
9th September 2005, 17:12
The definition of 'liner' could not be more simple Fred. It is a ship that plies a 'line voyage'. They run on the same line or route carrying passengers or cargo or both to a specific destination returning on the same line. I suppose the six million dollar question nowadays is whether a certain route that you mentioned in the Caribbean for example is considered a 'line voyage'?. Line voyages cross oceans which is why a regular ferry route such as the one I have just come back from on Pride of Bilbao is not classed as a 'line voyage'. Those who are spoiling for an argument will of course pick holes in anything. But at the end of the day, the word liner was invented by our ancestors because a single trade name was needed to apply to all vessels cargo or passengers or both that plied 'line voyages' which they deemed as crossing oceans as the vessel caried passengers or cargo or both to a specific far away destination stopping en-route discharging cargo, or taking on more and disembarking or embarking passengers just as you would a bus or train etc before returning on the same line. Therefore, there is nothing to debate about on that score because as I said, the defintion of liner could not be more simple. The confusion seems to arise when a cruise becomes a 'line voyage'. Certainly during the 1970s when the passenger line voyage era was coming to an end, passengers were using these voyages as a cruise often staying aboard for the entire trip. The trans-Atlantic crossing could be used as a cruise in the same way as the Caribbean vessels Fred mentioned with the passengers staying on board for the round trip which is why the QM2 operating pattern is not as clear to some as it would have been in the old days. But it is still a 'line voyage' whether the passengers stay aboard for the round trip or not. The only true liners coming in and out of our ports these days to my knowledge are cargo ships such as container ships and car carriers plying regular line voyages. Indeed any ship, however ugly and whatever her cargo is a liner if she plies a regular scheduled 'line voyage' because as I have said before, it is the trade that gives the name, not the vessel. Fred is right that I am even more concerned about safety at sea. My recent trip on th Pride of Bilbao which I will post a thread on in the next day or two plus pictures proved how right I am to be concerned. Whether people insult our ancestors or not by changing the meaning of liner just to suit the modern era because they are too lazy or arrogant to find a new word or indeed taking the word ship right out of the dictionary and applying boat to everything slang or otherwise, one thing is absolutely certain. Unless something is done to improve safety awareness at sea by educating landlubbers to basic shipboard rules as well as terminology, there is going to be a major incident. Only then will something be done. As I have said before, my job proved that many people died in vain because those who could see a problem, were ingnored. Until then people like me will be seen as the biggest jerks on earth, living in the past and not a clue of what we are talking about. David

Jeff Egan
9th September 2005, 18:00
The definition of "Liner" has changed many times over the generations. The origional Liner was a ship of the line, shortened to Liner. These ships were 75 gun (Or More) Men 'O' war in the British Royal Navy, they were called Liners as they were considered large enough to take up a position on the front line of a Naval Battle.
Regards Jeff.

fred henderson
9th September 2005, 18:25
I like the use of an ocean crossing as part of the definition David. It reminded me that "Ocean Liner" was once a common term. Of course cruise companies dont like to spend more than 2 days without a port visit. What particularly irritates me is to see annual positioning voyages, say from the Caribbean to the Mediterranean in the spring and back again in the autumn, as line voyages.

Fred

Pompeyfan
10th September 2005, 10:16
The definition of liner has only changed Jeff because people are allowing it. And many people still do not know where the original name began. You could well be right as to it's usage in the RN, but the name did not begin with the RN. They may have nicked it, but they did not invent the term. You are right Jeff about liner being a ship of the line shortened to liner, but it goes deeper than that. Liner is a trade name invented for merchant vessels(flimsey sailing ships) as they opened up trade with the rest of the world when other countries were discovered. A single name was needed to apply to vessels that plied this trade which became known as 'line voyages'. Therefore, liner was the ideal word to cover all vessels plying this trade. The newly invented term 'line voyage' also gave companies the idea to refer to themselves as 'lines'. This is why most companies are still known as lines. Both liner AND lines were born from from 'line voyage'. That is not assumption but nautical historic fact. Jeff is right that liner has changed over the years, but as I have said, it is only because people are allowing it to happen. The six million dollar question is SHOULD we allow it?. Our nautical ancestors invented vessels and words that now form the professional jargon of the nautical profession just as our medical ancestors invented the jargon of my own medical profession. We medics would not dream of tearing up our medical books changing names as medical science advances. We simply add to it when something new is discovered, NOT change the meaning of something. So why should the nautical profession have to change the meaning of liner or indeed other nautical jargon just to suit a new era?. As with the medical world, you add to jargon, not change the meaning or worse still, lose it altogether now that so many landlubbers have gone to sea on cruises etc changing every single name on board, and again we are ALLOWING it. And why should the word ship be allowed to die. Almost every landlubber call a ship a boat. Not as slang such as Banana Boat, but actually meaning boat for a large passenger ship. If I went to their house, I would tear out the page in their dictionary with ship in it because it is totally meaningless to them. David.

R58484956
10th September 2005, 11:06
What about a nautical school for all cruise passengers, so that they use correct terminology on board, no pass -no cruise.

Jeff Egan
10th September 2005, 12:11
I Think you'll find in history "Ship of the line" or Liner predates any Merchant fleet that Plied lines and no ship today or in the past has ever to my knowledge steered a straight line across an ocean and reached it's intended destination. In history it's far more likley that the Royal Navy calling a Wan 'O' war of a certain size, a liner, as in large enough to take position on the front line of a naval battle predates the merchant navy using the term to mean any large ship. But terminology will change naturally over the generations. What you were taught as correct as a young man will differ from what, say my fellow Geordie and hero of Trafalgar Lord Collingwood would have been taught and no doubt in two hundred years time someone will come along and call into doubt your interpretation of naval terminology and speak the languague of his day, I'm not saying he would be right the same as Lord Collingwood would probably question some of your 20th century definitions. After earning my living afloat all my life there's are some of your definitions as posted earlier that I don't recognise, but if they were used in the ships you served thats fair enough.
Regards Jeff

Doug Rogers
10th September 2005, 13:14
What about a nautical school for all cruise passengers, so that they use correct terminology on board, no pass -no cruise.

Oh good one, if you can pull it off that is!!....all those profits gone!!.

Pompeyfan
10th September 2005, 20:38
What about a nautical school for all cruise passengers, so that they use correct terminology on board, no pass -no cruise.


Yes, a fantastic idea.

As for Jeff's post, I don't think but know for 100% certainty that 'line voyages' were invented for merchant shipping. Indeed, when invented, it was the beginning of merchant shipping as it opened up trade with countries for the first time. This is not an opinion but known fact. I would not take too much notice of the straight line. It was invented to portray that a ship went out and back the same way travelling on the same line which would have been far from straight. As far as I know, and this is opinion, not fact, that there is nothing in the RN to suggest line was a major factor in their operations. I could be wrong about that, but the invention of liner is merchant. But the RN could well have nicked it just like people are trying to attach liner to cruise ships. David

Jeff Egan
10th September 2005, 20:40
Are you saying you have never heard of the expression "Ship of the Line"
Regards Jeff

R58484956
10th September 2005, 21:05
Well I suppose that is the last of that subject.

fred henderson
10th September 2005, 21:46
Are you saying you have never heard of the expression "Ship of the Line"
Regards Jeff

A Ship of the Line, was a warship sufficiently strong to be able to take a place and slug it out in the Line of Battle in a clash between two fleets. No connection with the word Liner in connection with the operation of buses, aircraft, trains or merchant ships on a fixed route. Like many English words, Liner has more than one meaning. No group nicked from another group David. I realise that you feel that the application to ships is very ancient, but the two volume Consise Oxford English Dictionery states that the word was first used in this connection in the Nineteenth Century in the USA.

Fred

R58484956
10th September 2005, 22:04
Go Into Chat Room They Want You There

Pompeyfan
11th September 2005, 02:10
Hopefully this will not be the last of shipping history on this site, but all that is being done is picking holes and looking for other meanings to the origin of liner. This can be argued until the end if time, but it will never take away the fact that the first line voyage was made and liner invented before some countries were even inhabited let alone have a navy. Liner is merchant history. The navy claim a lot of things as being the first to achieve, but the origin of liner is not one of them. David

R527835
11th September 2005, 09:04
Well... seems to me it was a:


SEA SHANTY


There was Port and there was Starboard,
But they used to call Port: Larboard.
And the two dogs on the fo'csle held the chain.
Then there's For'd and there's Aft
Which is (from A'beam,) A'baft,
And the Mizzen never stands A'fore the Main.

There were Farmers (without pigs,)
A-rabs, Lascars, Schooner Rigs,
Lots of (right hand,) feeding after Ramadan.
There was Panama and Mokes,
And a mob of red eyed blokes
From the 12 to 4 Watch, eyeing the Blackpan.

You could Heave To, Broach, Careen,
Two of fat and one of lean
Hungry Harrisons' (from out of Liverpool.)
Or 'buff with black on top'
Where the Bosun's name was Bop,
And both his thumbs were Fids, (a splicing tool.)

You could 'Stand By' or 'Turn To'
Take the Trick from twelve til two'
Rig a Jumbo or just Holystone the Deck;
Chippin'ammer 'cross the Atlantic,
Whitelead'n'tallow the Triatic,
Watch the Stemhead break the ice up near Quebec.

There were Tabnabs, there was Scouse,
Scuppers, Bulwarks, a Wheelhouse,
And drums were lashed A'baft the Lazerette.
You could 'Skin Out' of a Tanker,
Paint the Truck a'top the Spanker,
Soogie Funnels, hung on Gantlines, Fleet by Fleet.

You could 'Sign On' and 'Pay Off',
Turn your head away and cough;
Get the 'Channels' when the orders were Lands End.
Shackle to a Samson Post,
Blame the Liverpool Man's Ghost,
Or there's always an Allotment you could send.

There were Ratlines and Crosstrees,
No Blue Jeans, just Dungarees;
Fifteen hundred 'Girls' for hire down in Recife.
There were 'Plummers' down the 'Mouth',
One of Ropner's heading south,
Where the mail would go ashore at Tenerife.

There were Shifting Boards and Dunnage
And you knew the average tonnage
Of a Port Boat, steaming by at Fifteen Knots.
The Welsh Donkeyman from Hants
And the slack in Trimmer's pants,
And the 4 to 8 Watch, stinking in their cots.

Shonky Bum Boats at Port Said,
Gun'ls, Gimbals and Redlead;
Roaring Forties, Round the Horn and Abadan.
There were Palm and Needle Whippings,
Lots of Mother Carey's chickens,
And a Fine Bone China Tea Set, from Japan.

There were Doxfords and Twin Screws,
And the strangest looking stews
Came from Galleys' where the cook was often called
Names that questioned if his Dad
Had been married, or just mad,
Or just needed all his tackle overhauled.

The Red Duster, Carrick Bend,
Take a turn on the Drum End;
Starboard Helm, now, Steady As She Goes.
Port Side Bitts, Pacific Swells,
1 to 6 HEAVE, Seven Bells;
Get that Stopper on, LOOK LIVELY ON YOUR TOES.

Stockholm Tar and Cleaning Tanks,
Liberty Ships and Dogger banks,
Shifting Ship round to the Royal Edward Dock.
Monkey's Fist, Splice with the Lay,
First and Last, Logged two day's pay,
Last Pierhead Jump before She's through the Lock.

Hatchboards, Coamings, Bosun's Chair,
Bowsed right in under the Flair,
New Year's 16 Bells (in Denmark's Esbjerg Sound.)
Mouse that Hook and Masthead Light,
Malacca Straits, Australian Bight,
27 Indian Rupees to the Pound.

Oakum, Sextant, Fo'csle Head;
Maracaibo, Swing the Lead;
Drop the Pilot, Single Up and Spit a'lee.
Capstan Full Strength, On the Rake,
Sounds that sailors used to make;
Merchant Seamen's sounds that floated on the sea.

All these strange sounds; now they're gone;
Merchant Seamen lost their song;
The Iron Ships rust; the Wooden Men quietly gaze,
Reminiscing in their beer,
"Remember: Elson...Hopton...Kear...??"
"I wonder what they're doing, now-a-days."

Reg Kear
1992. Australia

thunderd
11th September 2005, 10:37
What an absolutely wonderful post, if that doesn't get the pulses racing I have bad news for you.....you are dead....Thank you

Pompeyfan
11th September 2005, 11:20
Yes, a great sea shanty, one that my former neighbour Uffa Fox would have no doubt liked?.

thunderd
11th September 2005, 11:27
Uffa Fox ??? forgive me I think I'm missing something

R58484956
11th September 2005, 11:41
UF one of the worlds great yacht designers, lived in Cowes Isle of Wight,

Piero43
11th September 2005, 12:05
Nevertheless, all submariners call their vessel "a boat" and NEVER "a ship"!
Piero

Jeff Egan
11th September 2005, 13:36
I'm merchant navy through and through but you are wrong on this one I'm afraid David. Regards Jeff.

Pompeyfan
11th September 2005, 22:16
No Jeff, I am not wrong on the original meaning of liner. If I were, I would not have started it in the first place. I never argue about anything unless I am 100% certain of my facts. If not, I say from the beginning that it is only an opinion. This is something we are going to have to agree to disagree over. It is well know in nautical history as to the meaning of liner, but it is obvious you will never agree.

Just be thankful that we still have a site to discuss such things.

As for Uffa Fox, he was a well known island sailor and sailing partner to Prince Philip, and famous for sea shanty's. He designed the Flying Fifteens giving one called Cowslip to the then Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip as a wedding present named I think from cowslips growing above our houses at the time. Uffa bought the land off my father. Have many stories to tell but sadly can't for obvious reasons but much of my information has a very reliable source with good cross reference if needed which is why I would argue with god almighty on some nautical subjects?!!.

And yes, a submarine is known as a boat. David

cboots
12th September 2005, 03:23
Frankly I can't see that it matters but, for what it is worth, I worked in the City of London in the eighties for awhile a shipping economist, and when we talked of analysing liner trades we meant ships that plied routes that were more or less fixed. That is to say their operators offered space to certain ports.
CBoots

marsat2
12th September 2005, 10:18
I think that Sea Shanty, see below, is even better when the author speaks it with his gloucester accent and music in the back ground.
If Michael James reads this, this is the one I tried to send you. I think its brilliant......Jim

Navyblue
12th September 2005, 11:11
Hi Guys..

I left the Royal Navy 15 Years ago and still use some of the old
navy sayings, much to the amazement of others.


Always remember, whilst doing Fire drill (somewhere)
and the PO in charge told the Leading Seaman to
"Crack the fire hydrant" to which he walked up to the hydrant and
announced in a loud voice "Hydrant your duty this weekend" the look on the
Petty Officers face was priceless.


All Submarines are refered to as Boats, I believe this came about
way back when they were first introduced into the Navy they
were not called Submarines, they were called "Torpedo Boats"

We used to call Ships/Boats etc "Targets"

Regards
Martin

Pompeyfan
12th September 2005, 11:24
Frankly I can't see that it matters but, for what it is worth, I worked in the City of London in the eighties for awhile a shipping economist, and when we talked of analysing liner trades we meant ships that plied routes that were more or less fixed. That is to say their operators offered space to certain ports.
CBoots

Well said cboots, but I think that preserving nautical history and jargon does matter. It certainly matters in the medical profession. We would not be here writing this if we did not learn from the past to preserve the present and future. So why should the nautical profession be any different?. David

Jeff Egan
12th September 2005, 11:33
I think you are missing the point I'm trying to make. I have no argument with the present day meaning of the word Liner or ship for that matter. But if you really care for our sea going heritage you would be using the language of yesteryear not the language of today. My fellow Geordie Lord Collingwood would inform you that the term Liner came from the term "Ship of the Line" and the word ship comes from a certain rig of sails on a sailing vessel. No doubt in the future people will use different terms and like you argue that they are right and all that have gone before are wrong.

Pompeyfan
12th September 2005, 12:20
No Jeff, you are missing the point. Your opinion of the origin of liner is totally wrong. Your version came after, not before. I have checked on this. Also, you could not be more wrong by saying I am thinking of words today and not yesterday. This was my whole point of starting this thread. And it has caused the very debate I had hoped for. If we all agreed with each other it would be a very boring world. Hopefully nautical history will never die as long as we debate it whether we agree or not.

Naturally I would not want to upset you because you say in your profile that you have hypertension which indeed I have myself despite a triple bypass which should have eased this. I am not sure of the other word you used in your profile. But we do seem to differ with words?!!. David

Jeff Egan
12th September 2005, 12:39
Arthur Riteous it affects the joints.

Pompeyfan
12th September 2005, 12:46
Yes I know, I was not meaning that.

Jeff Egan
12th September 2005, 12:51
You've got me now was it "Ore boats"

Pompeyfan
12th September 2005, 13:30
No, just the overall wording nautical not medical. I really am a professional on the latter?!!. Please see my PM. David

Jeff Egan
12th September 2005, 13:37
I'm stumped, England too.

Pompeyfan
12th September 2005, 14:58
I'm stumped, England too.

Sorry Jeff, not sure what you mean there other than the cricket.

Tony Crompton
12th September 2005, 15:03
Woder if any of the other liners came first. They are all arouind you.

Wife uses a lip Liner and an Eye Liner.
We have a Liner in our bin.
Our pond and Hanging Baskets all have Liners in.
We travel on holiday on an air Liner
Amtrak trains in USA are Liners
Grandchildren have nappy Liners (orrible things)
A short joke is a one Liner
A click on our computers can be an under Liner
Engineers complain frequently here about changing a Liner
etc. etc.
------------------
Tony C ( A Hard Liner)

Jeff Egan
12th September 2005, 15:12
I'm stumped, up here it means I've no idea what you are talking about now. But changing the subject back to naval terms. I was on a couple of ships thirty odd years ago where the term Zubbers was a common term. Used in the term.
Have you done Zubbers or I've done Zubbers or I could'nt do Zubbers tonight. Have you heard of that one.

Pompeyfan
12th September 2005, 17:00
Stumped is pretty iniversal I think, but I couldn't work out why you were stumped in relation to my post. Was it PM that stumped you?. If so, I have sent you a private message to ring me so that we can have a good chin wag as I feel we are getting too bogged down in the forum on this subject. More can be said on the phone in a few minutes pages of writing back and forward where misinterpretation is so easy. As for Zubbers, it is not a word we used on P&O ships, but I guess it is either money or event logging. But whatever it meant on yours or other ships it is a great sounding word no doubt only used at sea and long since died out which would be a shame because so many other words we used are now gone. If you ring I will phone back straight away to save your bill. David

Pompeyfan
12th September 2005, 17:24
Nice one Tony, could do with a bit of humour for a change?!. David

Jeff Egan
12th September 2005, 17:43
Everything I write is written with humour, I thought you would have worked that out by now. As for phoning, I prefer not to.
Zubbers is nothing to do with money and is only done by deck officers at night.

trotterdotpom
12th September 2005, 20:06
Woder if any of the other liners came first. They are all arouind you....
Tony C ( A Hard Liner)

Watch out for Osama Bin Liner. He's the one on the ship of the desert (direct from one oasis to the next, do not collect 200 shekels).

"Zubbers" is intriguing....?

John T.

fred henderson
12th September 2005, 21:04
The great thing about this thread David is that it has made us all think. It seems to me that the thread has divided into discussions on safety and on history. If you will permit me, I would like to take another look at the historical points you have made.
I am surprised that you do not seem to be prepared to accept that liner can have several meanings. The Shorter Oxford Dictionary actually lists twelve, from an official appointed to formally ride the boundaries of an ancient town, to a ferret sent down a rabbit hole on a string!
For such a simple word it seems obvious that it could have several separate nautical uses. I have a 1976 edition of The Oxford Companion to Ships & the Sea. In addition to a long entry about Uffa Fox, It has three entries for “liner”: -

“1. A ship belonging to a shipping company which carries passengers on scheduled routes. The older sailing packet ships were occasionally known as liners, but the name generally came into wider circulation with the change from sail to steam, roughly about 1840. With the recent rapid growth of air traffic and its consequent competition with liners for the available passengers, the number of liners in commission today has been considerably reduced, and many of them can only make a profit for their owners by becoming cruise liners catering for holiday traffic. A cargo liner is a cargo-carrying vessel with accommodation for a few passengers.
2. A word often used in the days of sailing warships to describe a ship of the line.
3. A fishing vessel engaged in fishing at sea with lines. Before the use of trawls or purse seine netting in sea-fishing, cod and ling were almost entirely caught by line with baited hooks.”

Forgive me for quoting the entry in full, but I feel that the debate will be helped by showing the sources for our beliefs. The Companion has other entries covering some of the points raised in the above quotation: -
Packet is “a shortened form of packet-boat which was originally a vessel plying regularly between two ports for the carriage of mails but available also for goods and passengers.” The first detailed records of these boats come from the 16th century service between England and Ireland. So yes the term is very old, but only for boats on a ferry service. The longer range packets carrying mail and a handful of official passengers operated in the 18th century until replaced by steamers in the 19th century.
You will notice that the term “cruise liner” was in use 30 years ago, when the Companion was written.
Sailing warships began fighting in a line formation, or line of battle, during the Second Dutch Wars (1665-1667). So the word liner in this context probably originates from the 17th century.
The fishing boat use is in my view the oldest of all forms of nautical “liner”.

I have been fascinated by the 19th century use of Line to describe a shipping operation. It was clearly common, but I cannot find any company using Line in their official name until the end of the century. White Star Line for example was always officially Oceanic Steam Navigation Company Limited, although always known to the public as White Star Line. Cunard was officially British & North American Royal Mail Steam Packet Company, although from its earliest days it was known as either Cunard Line or Mr Cunard’s Line. It officially became Cunard Steam Ship Company Ltd in 1878, Cunard – White Star Ltd in 1934, Cunard Steam – Ship Company Ltd in 1949 and only in 1962 was renamed Cunard Line Ltd.
Nevertheless you will see that the company’s pre WW I, Trieste office only carries the name Cunard Line.
You will see from the above that so far, you have not converted me to your view of the exclusive nautical use of the word liner. You have also researched the subject. I am very interested to know your sources and basis for your views

Best regards

Fred

Pompeyfan
12th September 2005, 22:51
Great post Fred. There is some really good research there. Well done. Like you say, my thread has made you all think which is what it was all about!. One of the names mentioned in posts is one source of my knowledge regarding matters pertaining to the sea. But my real research regarding the origin of liner began in 1972 when Canberra made her final 'line voyage'. Until then, I knew how to sail, the rules of the sea and so on having been born and bred into it here on the Isle of Wight with the best possible teachers. But it was not until December 1972 that I realised that liner had a real meaning when the master of Canberra, Wally Vickers told us that Canberra had ceased to be a liner and would become a full time cruise ship. I then started asking questions as to where the term originated, but was given several versions. As a professional medic, we are taught not to assume. We need definitive answers in order to cure people, so I decided to research through people I cannot mention in a post but would do so on the phone. Basically, my information took me back to the ninth century. Whatever happened after is neither here nor there. The term cruise liner has indeed been around for 30 years and longer. But the trades are different. I say again, liner is a trade name, not the name of the vessel. A cruise is not a 'line voyage' unless of course people use a line voyage as a cruise which is something that was on the increase in the early 70s and even earlier.

Sorry you did not wish to have a chat on the phone Jeff. I am not the person I perceive to be in posts which could even come over as argumentative, but I am not like that at all. I am very bad at putting things on paper and almost always misinterpreted. As a professional medic, I gave results of tests verbally to make sure the message was understood as people lives depended on it. That is why I prefer the verbal method.

All I am doing is trying to preserve nautical terminology as handed down by our ancestors. I am also concerned about safety at sea which I have only touched on slightly so far. On that, I need the ideas of all concerned because it will be my fears, not research as to the origin of something. David.

joesoap
12th September 2005, 23:38
C'mon now lads , a boat by any other name is still ......but yes , I'm with you there for sure . However on the Clyde (used to be my home port) and I'm almost sure the Mersey it was "boats". Might well have been the same with the Oirish. Joesoap.

fred henderson
12th September 2005, 23:51
All points accepted David.
At some stage during this traumatic weekend, you stated that you were about to report on a voyage in Pride of Bilbao. In response to a photo of Pride of Calais I passed on the comments I had read in the trade press. I feel I should return to it on your thread, which is currently the Top of the Pops!
One of the writers in the Swedish shipping trade publication Cruise & Ferry Info had crossed the Channel with SeaFrance and P&O. He thought the SeaFrance ship was in superb condition with the crew showing a real pride in their ship. On the other hand the only pride evident in the P&O ship was her name.
The P&O ship was squalid. Cleaning the decks and maintaining the toilets appeared to have been deferred to the annual refit. Large areas of filth closed off with gaffer tape. Catering was below the worst standards of UK Motorway Service Areas. The writer felt that he began to understand why this has happened when he heard a PA call for "The Catering Team Leader to report to the Passenger Service Desk". Do they no longer have a Chef and a Purser?
P&O Ferries is the only shipping operation owned by P&O. It is running at about £1 million loss per month. If anyone were to offer to take over the divisions debts and pay P&O £1 for the division they would have a deal.
Crew morale is at rock bottom. I hope your voyage was not as bad and I know that you are an experienced passenger, but I feel that you should be aware that P&O is no longer a company run by shipowners and I feel it is not representative of standards in the industry.

Fred :@

Pompeyfan
13th September 2005, 00:21
I will post my experience on Pride of Bilbao when I can. As for my former employers P&O, yes, they are no longer ship owners or indeed understand ships. I have still yet to tell of my experience fully on a cruise in June of this year. I am not an experienced passenger, although have done quite a few trips as passenger. But when I go back to sea as a passenger I must be a nightmare because I compare to my time at sea as crew in the 70s. Although ships medic, I also took my lifeboat ticket ending up with my own lifeboat if we had to abandon ship, and took my steering ticket which I completed on Canberra taking her into port. I was shaking llike a leaf!!. I was also in charge of the stretcher party and was involved in mock up fires at crew drill so saw a lot of the safety side due to that allowing better comment I hope on safety these days or rather the possible lack of it with so many passengers totally unaware of even basic shipboard terminology which I see as a major safety issue. But I will discuss all this when I can hopefully with some good feed back.

As for the boat issue joesoap, many seafarers and enthusiasts use boat as slang or nickname. The difference with others is that they genuinely believe a ship is a boat. Therefore, they no doubt think it should be the boating forecast on the BBC, boat shape and Bristol fashion and so on. And perhaps this site should be Boat Nostalgia?!!!!. David

R527835
22nd September 2005, 12:09
I think that Sea Shanty, see below, is even better when the author speaks it with his gloucester accent and music in the back ground.
If Michael James reads this, this is the one I tried to send you. I think its brilliant......Jim


I think you may just be a little off course there Jim... I am the actually the author of Sea Shanty as written above... I live in Australia... but what you may have heard is an ol' shipmate o' mine, Ron Elson who now resides in Bliana South Wales, read it at a Vindi re-union one year... or perhaps on the CD that was kicking around for a few years... I still have a couple of copies of that .... and we're both Bristol boys not Gloucestershire...

ah no matter... but seeing as this thread has almost run its course..? are there any Western Ocean men here-a-bouts... If so... here's a memory for thee as well....

North Atlantic

Consider this didactic place,
Where men have moved with sinew'd grace,
Midst trough and peak and wind licked lace.
Now: hear the voice that bids them care
To heed their step and gait, and prayer;
Lest sun be taken from their face,
When set aside in cold embrace
Beneath; in ancient rhythms there.


Reg Kear. R527835..

john martin
24th September 2005, 22:56
john
you only had to say skin boat or baron boat and they knew what you meant straight away.
pill ferry boat passenger
john

Old Wilf
8th November 2005, 09:25
Yes submarines are boats as are destroyers, original name "torpedo boat destroyer".

Kenneth Morley
20th November 2005, 22:55
Hi the "blackpan" best meal of the day have many memories of eating with your hands outside galley. Kenneth

Doug H
29th November 2005, 06:20
Having followed all the various comments about nautical/naval/shoreside terminology, I have decided it's all due to all the changes that none of use like to accept.

In the pure spirit of fun, I submit the following which "came across my desk" several month ago. Hope it is enjoyed!


How would Nelson have fared if he had been subject to modern health and safety regulations ?

"Order the signal to be sent, Hardy."
"Aye, aye sir."


"Hold on, that's not what I dictated to the signal officer. What's the meaning of this?"
"Sorry sir?"

"England expects every person to do his duty, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religious persuasion or disability. What gobbledegook is this?"
"Admiralty policy, I'm afraid, sir. We're an equal opportunities employer now. We had the devil's own job getting 'England' past the censors, lest it be considered racist."

"Gadzooks, Hardy. Hand me my pipe and tobacco."
"Sorry sir. All naval vessels have been designated smoke-free working environments."

"In that case, break open the rum ration. Let us splice the main brace to steel the men before battle."
"The rum ration has been abolished, Admiral. It's part of the Government's policy on binge drinking."

"Good heavens, Hardy. I suppose we'd better get on with it. Full speed ahead."
"I think you'll find that there's a 4 knot speed limit in this stretch of water."

"Damn it man! We are on the eve of the greatest sea battle in history. We must advance with all dispatch. Report from the crow's nest, please."
"That won't be possible, sir."


"What?"
"Health and safety have closed the crow's nest, sir. No harness. And they said that rope ladder doesn't meet regulations. They won't let anyone up there until a proper scaffolding can be erected."

"Then get me the ship's carpenter without delay, Hardy."
"He's busy knocking up a wheelchair access to the fo'c'sle Admiral."


"Wheelchair access? I've never heard anything so absurd."
"Health and safety again, sir. We have to provide a barrier-free environment for the differently abled."

"Differently abled? I've only one arm and one eye and I refuse even to hear mention of the word. I didn't rise to the rank of admiral by playing the disability card."
"Actually, sir, you did. The Royal Navy is under-represented in the areas of visual impairment and limb deficiency."


"Whatever next? Give me full sail. The salt spray beckons."
"A couple of problems there too, sir. Health and safety won't let the crew up the rigging without crash helmets. And they don't want anyone breathing in too much salt - haven't you seen the adverts?"

"I've never heard such infamy. Break out the cannon and tell the men to stand by to engage the enemy."
"The men are a bit worried about shooting at anyone, Admiral."

"What? This is mutiny."
"It's not that, sir. It's just that they're afraid of being charged with murder if they actually kill anyone. There's a couple of legal aid lawyers on board, watching everyone like hawks."

"Then how are we to sink the French and the Spanish?"
"Actually, sir, we're not."

"We're not?"
"No, sir. The French and the Spanish are our European partners now. According to the Common Fisheries Policy, we shouldn't even be in this stretch of water. We could get hit with a claim for compensation."


"But you must hate the French."
"I wouldn't let the ship's diversity co-ordinator hear you saying that sir. You'll be up on disciplinary."

"You must consider every man an enemy who speaks ill of your King."
"Not any more, sir. We must be inclusive in this multicultural age. Now put on your Kevlar vest; it's the rules."

"Don't tell me - health and safety. Whatever happened to rum, sodomy and the lash?"
"As I explained, sir, rum is off the menu. And now there's a ban on corporal punishment."

"What about sodomy?"
"I believe it's to be encouraged, sir."

"In that case ...kiss me, Hardy."

thunderd
29th November 2005, 07:16
What a good bit of humour Doug unfortunately heavily salted with fact...well done, great post

Doug Rogers
29th November 2005, 07:32
Its been around for a fair while, but its a magnificant piece and I laugh heartily every time that I see it......so much for Trafalgar!!.

Piero43
29th November 2005, 10:32
Yes submarines are boats as are destroyers, original name "torpedo boat destroyer".

Old Wilf, you are correct about submarines (also in Italy all submariners call their ship "a boat").
I don't agree about destroyers. The meaning of the name is: "A ship fit to destroy torpedo boats" (In italian: "Cacciatorpediniere", torpedo boat hunter), Torpedo boats, as you surely know, were little more than motor boats in their dimension, and in many cases (as the italian M.A.S. of WWII), were as a matter of fact modified leisure motor boats.
As for calling "boat" a ship, this is in many cases a sign of love. May dad, referring to a ship he liked particularly always said "E' una bella barca" ("She's a nice boat").
By the way, someone calls "little thing" his son also if he's more than six feet high and weights 90 kilos...
Piero

Derek Roger
29th November 2005, 23:34
A boat by definition is a vessel of less than 500 gross Tons . All the rest are Bloody Ships ! Get over it chaps . Derek

neil maclachlan
30th November 2005, 17:51
Hi Guys,
A ship is a ship and a boat is carried on a ship(lifeboat) but we can't help calling the ships we sailed on a "Boat" i.e Clan Boat, Halt Boat,Star Boat, How about the expressions,deck, deck head,shoreside,topside, below,over the wall etc,they were expressions used constantly aboard ships.
Neil Mac.

neil maclachlan
30th November 2005, 17:53
Me again ,add this one on---bulkhead?
Neil Mac.

agentroadrunner
5th February 2006, 10:33
I fully agree withthe original post, I always try to keep the proper nautical terms even on our "ferry boats" especially when making PA announcements.

Anything less would sound very amateurish coming from a Ships Officer and therefore the Company.

Pompeyfan
5th February 2006, 11:05
Glad to hear it agentroadrunner, but I am afraid that language aboard some cruise ships is becoming amateurish which is causing me great concern as already mentioned. David

jim barnes
5th February 2006, 14:42
As a matter of interest i have always been confused as others as to what is a hovercraft in termanology? is it a ship or is it a plane? as it is not in the water neither is it actually flying, who is incharge a maritime Master or a airline pilot, call me daft but i am still not sure? (Hippy) (*))

Basil
5th February 2006, 14:57
Port & starboard are long gone in aviation and their demise can cause a bit of confusion e.g:
TriStar had two crew lifts to the underfloor galley. To enter them you faced aft.
Stewardess: "Mr engineer the left lift isn't working."
Flt Eng: "Is that left as you face the lifts or left facing forward?"
Stewardess: "Errmm?"

vix
6th February 2006, 09:49
Have just read through this thread and agree with a lot of it. When I joined the Vindi I was told I had to learn a totally new language...and learn it quickly...when I went ashore...not many people knew what I was talking about...I later joined the GPO and...lo & behold...I had to learn anpther language...Once I had to direct a doctor to my house and he asked what side of the street I lived on? Starboard side, old cock...when he finally arrived he asked me if I was a seaman? I always wondered how he guessed? Taking the 'language' thread forward a bit...I think we all bemoan the fate of the nautical language...but what of the other threads...the demise of the British Shipping Industry & the demise of the British Merchant Navy? Surely, if the SI has gone and the MN has gone with it...and we all know it's not there as we knew it in the 50's and 60's...how can you retain a language that is/has become archaic? Remember not too long ago we had pounds/shillings and pence? What has happend to a tinker's tuppeny curse? I said it to my kids once, "What's a tinker and what's tuppence?" What's a farthing. halfpenny (ha'penny) thre'pence, a silver joey? As someone said previous, 'What's a tanner?' Someone who spanks you...and that's not PC now, either. I would like to sea the nautical language retained, after all I HAD TOO learn it...but...in these modern days, with containership & floating monstrosities (called cruise ships)...where neither Cunard or P & O exist as BRITISH cruise companies...where a person fails an exam because he/she refers to a 'manhole cover' instead of an 'inspection plate'...Where the Americans, the Internet & telephone text calls are making a mockery of the English Language as we knew it...I'm afraid the words fore & aft...starboard and port...are all heading to be read only from a dictionary like larboard....and walking the plank! Now...try explaning...bowsing-in or bowsing-in wire...to a landlubber, in as few words as possible, and get HIM/HER/THEM to understand the full meaning of what you mean AND what you are doing! Vix

Pompeyfan
6th February 2006, 10:02
I once spoke to the pilot of the hovercraft. My son is hovercraft mad so we travelled in the cockpit with the pilot who is indeed an aircraft pilot but was a master mariner as well, but I don't think you need to be both. The hovercraft is amphibious, so does not have to stick to the same matitime laws as a ship. It is in fact flying. It was a very long time ago when I was told this, but my son is really into it and is a member of the hovercraft museum in Gosport. He has just gone out, but when he comes back later tonight I will ask him for more detail. David

jim barnes
6th February 2006, 18:02
I once spoke to the pilot of the hovercraft. My son is hovercraft mad so we travelled in the cockpit with the pilot who is indeed an aircraft pilot but was a master mariner as well, but I don't think you need to be both. The hovercraft is amphibious, so does not have to stick to the same matitime laws as a ship. It is in fact flying. It was a very long time ago when I was told this, but my son is really into it and is a member of the hovercraft museum in Gosport. He has just gone out, but when he comes back later tonight I will ask him for more detail. David
does your son float in, cruise in, fly in, hover about, or simply visit David?LOL
Jim

Pompeyfan
9th February 2006, 21:34
He hangs around the Hover Terminal a lot as would me great grandson given a chance?!. David

sfmillsy
9th February 2006, 21:47
Hello,

I joined the Fire Service in the UK in 1983 after over 12 years at sea. It was a culture shock and blokes would ask me what did I mean by 'Smoko' and 'Tea and tabnabs'. They also had never heard of 'Job and finish' or 'knocking it on the head' but perhaps they were not generic terms used at sea.
I remember doing a ladder drill once, being on the third floor of the drill towerand asking the guy on the ground to 'come aloft'.You can imagine the ribbing I got. Still as they say 'if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined'!
Sad to hear that the lingo is changing at sea so much (perhaps it only applies to these floating monstrosities they call cruise ships) but I will never forget my time on the 'oggin, suffering from 'the channels' and meeting so many 'board of trade aquaintances'.

All the best

Steve (*)) Mills

vix
10th February 2006, 07:01
Hello,

I joined the Fire Service in the UK in 1983 after over 12 years at sea. It was a culture shock and blokes would ask me what did I mean by 'Smoko' and 'Tea and tabnabs'. They also had never heard of 'Job and finish' or 'knocking it on the head' but perhaps they were not generic terms used at sea.
I remember doing a ladder drill once, being on the third floor of the drill towerand asking the guy on the ground to 'come aloft'.You can imagine the ribbing I got. Still as they say 'if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined'!
Sad to hear that the lingo is changing at sea so much (perhaps it only applies to these floating monstrosities they call cruise ships) but I will never forget my time on the 'oggin, suffering from 'the channels' and meeting so many 'board of trade aquaintances'.

All the best

Steve (*)) Mills
Yes, There are many shore jobs that have never heard a nautical expression and many jobs have their own 'language'. BUT,I procrastinate! I was approaching Auckland, yesterday, and an announcer was on board the QE II, I cringed when he said, I am now going DOWN STAIRS to the restaurant...!! I felt like grabbing hold of his mike and bellowing, "You're going down below, you stupid fool." I now understand where David is coming from and he has my sympathy and my full support. Even if it is like flogging a dead-horse! Vix' (Night)

vix
10th February 2006, 07:06
Talking of dead horses: Dead Horse wisdom:
The tribal wisdom of the Dakota Indians, passed on from generation to generation says that... "When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount." However, today, governments and businesses such as often employ a whole range of far more advanced strategies:
1. Buying a stronger whip.
2. Changing riders.
3. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
4. Add the dead horse’s name as a parliamentary list candidate.
5. Elect the dead horse as a list candidate.
6. Give the dead horse a cabinet position. Preferably, on entry into parliament.
7. If the dead horse fails to win a list seat in parliament, give it a position on a local council.
8. Arranging to visit other countries to see how other cultures ride dead horses.
9. Lowering the standards so that dead horses can be included.
10. Reclassifying the dead horse as living impaired.
11. Hiring outside contractors to ride the dead horse.
12. Harnessing several dead horses together to increase speed.
13. Providing additional funding and/or training to increase dead horses' performance.
14. Doing a productivity study to see if lighter riders would improve the dead horse's performance.
15. Declaring that as the dead horse does not have to be fed, it is less costly, carries lower overheads, and therefore contributes substantially more to the bottom line of the economy than do some other horses.
16. Rewriting the expected performance requirements for all horses.
If all else fails, promote the dead horse to a supervisory position or, better still, make it Prime Minister.

lakercapt
10th February 2006, 15:45
In different areas there are locaal terms that are in use.
On the great lakes for example they always refer to the ships that sail exclusively there as "Boats"
Another oddity is that everything on US charts was in statute miles and even the boats speed was in M.P.H..
Not that long ago that there were seperate "Rules of the Road" that started at St.Lambert Lock'
Three short blasts was the fog signal for a vessel underway so you would know it was a bit differant for me as a "saltie" to get used to it.

Harry Nicholson
27th February 2006, 22:41
With reference to the word boat, I must admit that in the sixties, we often used to refer to ships as boats eg, Harrison boat, Clan boat, Ellerman boat. The word boat was used I felt as an endearment rather than misused, because we always refered to our ' ship ' or ' the ship I am on '.and to confuse matters more, heard loads and loads of times, " Whats that ship over there ? " " Its a Harrison boat etc ".
Chris.
With reference to the ship/boat debate: I came across this in Whitby Museum's archive display, it uses the 'boat term' and its ancient:

14th Century:
Peter Lincoln, merchant of Whitby, bringing wine from Bordeaux complained bitterly to the King when he and his ship the "Saint Mary Bote" were attacked by pirates in the Channel.

Cap'n Pete
28th February 2006, 18:35
With multi-national crews on ships today the main difficulty is being understood using a common language, normally English. On my ship I have British, Ukrainian, Polish, Russian and Filipino seafarers. These people learned English at school and there education did not extend to the use of old fashioned nautical expressions.

Of course, cruise ships have a different agenda. Many people who go on cruises do not want to "go to sea" but want a hotel that magically transports them from one port of call to another overnight. The ships are specifically designed to "insulate" them from the environment in which they operate and have more in common with theme park hotels than old fashioned passenger liners. The captain you sailed with and his crew were probably specifically instructed not to use nautical terminology when addressing passengers in order to perpetuate the illusion that they are not at sea at all.

the stowaway
28th February 2006, 21:56
come on world a plank is a plank and starborad is starborad..this p''c'' stuff has got us all f### up so am of aft for a tom tit.....and as for a duckborad i can walk all over them..keep it comeing peep's

digby
13th March 2006, 04:30
I am not ex navy but I understand exactly what you mean. As an example, I always underdstood from the navy personel at the submarine training school on Gosport that a Submarine was always referred to as a BOAT and not a ship, but God forgive them but the yanks have changed that and now a submarine is a ship. And the sub mariner is a submriner waht is the world coming to? The UK has the finest naval history in the world what gives these people the right to flaunt tradition and relagate it to the waste bin? I am with you 100% it is all going to the dogs. I remember when I was a boy of 10 as a passenger on the Caernavon cCastle out of South Hampton, every member of the crew I spoke to referred to the different parts of the ship as, forard aft stbd port below decks companion way bridge galley mess room etc, it facinated me it was a different world, it was an education to hear all those things and something I have never forgotten nor do I want to. I am 70 now and living in the Philppines married to my Filipina, so to all of you Matelots I remember and cherish what I learned God bless you all. Gerald.A.D.Lucas-Farley.

calvin
13th March 2006, 10:11
some good sea language in the parra handy tales setb on a clyde puffer but what about the styles of tramps and bulkers now vanishing for the boxboat containers no more enthusiasism for ships or there exoctic sounding ports of calland the designs of the different fleet may be good thread to find the ship that stays forever in you sea memory and why.

allanc
22nd March 2006, 10:25
A somewhat belated comment. What is important is that the body of knowledge involved be preserved. Language is important in the preservation of that knowledge. And there is a certain compromise between the evolution of the language and the development of the language, which will happen regardless of our efforts to resist it. Nonetheless, I contend that it is incumbent on the agents of change to show that the change is for the better, not the worse, but as long as none of the essential knowledge is lost, in the long run it probably doesn't matter if we use different words to describe the same essential truth. Is that a load of cobblers, or perhaps a helpful contribution?
Regards to all,
Allan Collier

jim barnes
22nd March 2006, 10:35
A somewhat belated comment. What is important is that the body of knowledge involved be preserved. Language is important in the preservation of that knowledge. And there is a certain compromise between the evolution of the language and the development of the language, which will happen regardless of our efforts to resist it. Nonetheless, I contend that it is incumbent on the agents of change to show that the change is for the better, not the worse, but as long as none of the essential knowledge is lost, in the long run it probably doesn't matter if we use different words to describe the same essential truth. Is that a load of cobblers, or perhaps a helpful contribution?
Regards to all,
Allan CollierSounds just like my old English teacher...LOL (Applause)

scooby do
22nd March 2006, 11:07
When does a boat become a ship? Officially During the building process. I was told that as the wieght of the material, steel, wood, etc. exceeded 500 tons it it was termed a ship under 500 it's a boat .I wounder if thats true.

digby
17th November 2006, 03:11
Hello to all, I am 71 now and sad to say I never went to sea in the true sense. But in 1947 I sailed from South Hampton as a passenger on the Caernavon Castle, and a fine vessel she was. But to the point, the purser called for all passengers to assemble at ships lounge for a safety briefing, as you wiil no doubt notice from my age I was only 11yrs old but I still remember how the purser referred to everything and it facinated me, he said port starboard, aft and forard, explaining that these terms referred to the front of the SHIP and the rear of the ship. He then told us how and where to assemble in an emergency saying (for Example) all passengers on B Deck will assemble on the port side and will be assisted by the stewards into the life BOATS, never ever did the purser refer to anything as left or right or up or down except when he said up or down a companionway. It was exciting to hear this new language of the sea and to sail from South Hampton to Cape town on one of the Castle line ships. Long live all nautical terms and jargon. I think that today most people lack the ability to enjoy the nostalgia of nautical terminology and all the wonderfull fantasy that it should invoke in anyone with a modicum of wonder for way that the Ships and Liners of the old days opened up the world to us all. It makes me sad even now in my 70s to see people discard the wonders of the past , for without those wonders we would not have what we have today. there would be no cruise liners "BOATS" yuk, Digby. Member.

dom
17th November 2006, 05:52
well said Digby

captainchris
17th November 2006, 20:43
As I only new on the site, I am catching up on all the threads. This one intregued me simply because I work on both commercial vessels and large private yachts.
Terminology has certainly changed over the years, and especially on yachts, people refer to certain places as "heads" instead of what one of the contributors was too polite to call properly. So with marine terminology and modern yachts, where would be the deckhead, the toilet on deck or something different. The RN also calls them heads, but as far as know in my 43 years in the MN I have never heard of the expression on proper ships.
With regard to liners, I used to work with Court Line, who before becoming a tanker company, were always trampers, Bank Line, as far as I know were mainly trampers, and I am sure many other of the old company's were trampers, who called themselves Liner company's.
Cruise ships today mainly run from, say Florida to the Caribbean, on a regular schedule, therefore this is a liner service, running from point A to point B with C,D,E and F on route, but still returning to point A. Isn't that what a liner service is?
With terminology on board, I still call it the front and back ends on board as we tend to take the micky out of ourselves, however in normal service we obviously refer to the sharp end and blunt end for compliance with regulations!!
I could go on and on but really times are changing and us older people have to somehow adjust, even if we don't want to.

Regards,

Chris

Pompeyfan
17th November 2006, 22:10
I am glad this thread is still a subject of debate which is why I started it. David

KIWI
18th November 2006, 02:22
Still instictively use Malim Sahibs Hindustani for many day to day operations.Throwing anything out[according to my wife quite rare]is still putting it in the big locker.Overboard. Kiwi