Caird & Rayner (Raynor?) Evaps.

Philthechill
26th March 2009, 08:51
I was having a yarn on t' phone with an ex-Brocklebank shipmate (Charlie Drought) last night (25/3/09) and he was asking me if I'd ever sailed on "Maskeliya" as he had a painting of her he was going to present to someone and he wanted to know a few details about her, engine-room wise.

During my re-collections of the various bits-and-bobs which transformed "Maskeliya" from an inanimate load of steel etc. I mentioned that she had a Caird & Rainer LP evaporator and which, whilst being a bit of a sod to get going, and keep going, was quite a good bit of kit actually and much more preferable (and efficient) to a Weirs HP 'vap.

Another point I raised, with Charlie, was the de-scaling fluid we used, to de-scale the HX, called Condenflu a purple liquid carried in carboy's. There was another powdered de-scaler but the name of this escapes me for the moment! It was safer than the Condenflu as it was a powdered Hydrochloric acid rather than a liquid!!

Did any other companies have these evaporators fitted? Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Satanic Mechanic
26th March 2009, 18:36
OMG NOOOOOOOOOooooooo(EEK)

Not Claire Raynors - the most fickle evaps ever. As you said a sod to get started -also to keep going.

As for descaling liquids/powders, none of that namby pamby stuff ;) - cold cracking thats was the way to deal with the damn things - kilos of scale a day.

Duncan112
26th March 2009, 21:07
BP's SS"British Respect" had 2 Caird and Raynor Vavacs fitted, one on bled steam, the other on live - can't remember much about them apart from as a cadet having to chip the scale off the evaporating elements, cold shocking having failed miserably.

Duncan

Baz1uk
27th March 2009, 10:43
Some of the Blue Funnel early "A" class had them.We used to de-scale them by hard cracking.Seem to remember it being a bit of a temperemental piece of kit.

gordy
27th March 2009, 20:49
On my first N. Sea platform we had a couple of small vaps for potable water.
We had no steam, so the vac was raised by a water eductor. After a black out we had all been rushing around getting the oil flowing again and when all was settled down we were having a brew. Somebody asked if anybody had started the vap. I nipped into the module and lo and behold it has started itself as all the systems came on, and it was producing merrily without any human assistance.

Satanic Mechanic
27th March 2009, 23:16
On my first N. Sea platform we had a couple of small vaps for potable water.
We had no steam, so the vac was raised by a water eductor. After a black out we had all been rushing around getting the oil flowing again and when all was settled down we were having a brew. Somebody asked if anybody had started the vap. I nipped into the module and lo and behold it has started itself as all the systems came on, and it was producing merrily without any human assistance.

Was there some sort of planetary alignment, meteor showers, strange lights in the sky etc. that particular day

gordy
28th March 2009, 01:08
Was there some sort of planetary alignment, meteor showers, strange lights in the sky etc. that particular day
Maybe we had a ghost(Jester)

Philthechill
29th March 2009, 09:17
In reply to my own message I've just remembered the name of that powdered hydrochloric acid we used to de-scale the HX!

It was called "Hagevap" (pronounced "haggyvap") and was a much better (and safer) product than the Condenflu!

We did the cold-water "shocking" as a daily routine but it would only work so long and then it was out with the scaled-up HX and in with the stand-by unit which was all bright and shiny and ready for use from its long immersion in Hagevap. Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Bob_F
30th March 2009, 04:12
Phil my recollection of 'Hagevap' is that it was a polyphosphate and was injected into thae low pressure evaps to suppress the boil to cut back on carry over. Prior to the use of 'Hagevap' we used to use ferric cloride for this purpose. When we acid cleaned the evap sulfamic acid was used. This was on the 'Mangla' with a Weir's system.
Cheers.
Bob_F

Philthechill
30th March 2009, 17:11
Phil my recollection of 'Hagevap' is that it was a polyphosphate and was injected into thae low pressure evaps to suppress the boil to cut back on carry over. Prior to the use of 'Hagevap' we used to use ferric cloride for this purpose. When we acid cleaned the evap sulfamic acid was used. This was on the 'Mangla' with a Weir's system.
Cheers.
Bob_FBob! Ta very much for pointing-out the true use of "Hagevap". So my understanding of it being a powdered form of hydrochloric acid is somewhat wide of the mark!

I must say I'm not familiar with "sulfamic acid". Is it a derivative of sulphuric acid or an acid in its own right?

However, moving on, you may be able to answer a question for me re. "Mangla" (and "Mathura", presumably). (I'm assuming you sailed on "Mangla" based on your including her name in your bit of info. re. Hagevap).

Now, rather than putting in the name of the bit of kit I'm on about, and thereby possibly "clouding" the issue, I am going to ask the question!!!

Can you remember what kind of T/A "Mangla" had?

The reason I ask is because I went on, at great length, in a Thread on Brock's site about what fabulous engine-rooms "Mangla/Mathura" had, what with their FW boilers, Allen alternators and, for use "at sea", a ---------------T/A.

Someone, I can't recall who, came back at me and said I was wrong and it wasn't an alternator by --------------------, it was manufactured by ---------------.

I'm 100% positive I was right just as they were 100% positive THEY were right. We never did get it resolved as there were others who joined-in saying I was right and equally the other suggestion was right.

I even got in touch with Glasgow University as I was told they may have the spec. of the two ships. I got a reply from someone there who sent me the details but, unfortunately, all it said was that the ships had diesel alternators and a steam-turbine alternator but no manufacturers names came up.

So, Bob, maybe you can remember what type of T/A "Mangla" had fitted. If you come-up with MY T/A I'll restart the discussion on Brock's site. If you don't then I will just have to take my bat and ball home!!!!

Thanks, again for the gen about "Hagevap". Salaams, Phil(Hippy) (20 mins. later!) Bob! I decided to try and find the "Thread" I mentioned. I said (erroneously as it turned-out) that it was on a Thread I'd started about Mangla/Mathura but it was actually in the "What was your favourite Brock ship" Thread and, lo and behold you'd already put your 5c worth in on the subject I asked you about (above). You agreed with me and Don McLeod and opted for Bellis & Morcomb as the T/A manufacturer so there's no need for me to take my bat and ball home after all!!!! Salaams, Phil

Jim S
30th March 2009, 22:05
Bob! Ta very much for pointing-out the true use of "Hagevap". So my understanding of it being a powdered form of hydrochloric acid is somewhat wide of the mark!

I must say I'm not familiar with "sulfamic acid". Is it a derivative of sulphuric acid or an acid in its own right?

However, moving on, you may be able to answer a question for me re. "Mangla" (and "Mathura", presumably). (I'm assuming you sailed on "Mangla" based on your including her name in your bit of info. re. Hagevap).

Now, rather than putting in the name I think it was and thereby possibly "clouding" the issue, I am going to ask the question!!!

Can you remember what kind of T/A "Mangla" had?

The reason I ask is because I went on, at great length, in a Thread on Brock's site about what fabulous engine-rooms "Mangla/Mathura" had, what with their FW boilers, Allen alternators and, for use "at sea", a ---------------T/A.

Someone, I can't recall who, came back at me and said I was wrong and it wasn't an alternator by --------------------, it was manufactured by ---------------.

I'm 100% positive I was right just as they were 100% positive THEY were right. We never did get it resolved as there were others who joined-in saying I was right and equally the other suggestion was right.

I even got in touch with Glasgow University as I was told they may have the spec. of the two ships. I got a reply from someone there who sent me the details but, unfortunately, all it said was that the ships had diesel alternators and a steam-turbine alternator but no manufacturers names came up.

So, Bob, maybe you can remember what type of T/A "Mangla" had fitted. If you come-up with MY T/A I'll restart the discussion on Brock's site. If you don't then I will just have to take my bat and ball home!!!!

Thanks, again for the gen about "Hagevap". Salaams, Phil(Hippy) (20 mins. later!) Bob! I decided to try and find the "Thread" I mentioned. I said (erroneously as it turned-out) that it was Thread I'd started about Mangla/Mathura but it was actually in the "What was your favourite Brock ship" Thread and, lo and behold you'd already put your 5c worth in on the subject I asked you about (above). You agreed with me and Don McLeod and opted for Bellis & Morcomb as the T/A manufacturer so there's no need for me to take my bat and ball home after all!!!! Salaams, Phil

Hi Phil,
It was thee and me that had the discussion about the make of T/A on Mangla and Mathura. On the absence of any definate proof otherwise I have to concede defeat and that you were correct on Bellis & Morcom as the maker.
That was also the name that was in one of the technical magazines of the day. Unfortunately Mangla and Mathura entered service at a time when the technical press were enthusing about Ben Line's Benloyal, Ellerman's City of Melbourne and BI's Bulimba and her sisters so the Brocklebank pair only merited a few paragraphs. In fact when it came the time to report on Mathura entering service the journal used an identical wording to that for Mangla with only a name change.
Maybe the Mathura that I sailed on was in a parallel universe. The Snr 3rd that I sailed with on Mathura looked on the T/A as his baby and I think I only got to start it once.
On your bit about Caird and Raynor evaporators - I think Transvaal Castle had the type. There was another maker going about Maxim I think they were called. I am sure you found the Weir low pressure vaps on Mangla and Mathura to be reliable. Fyffes ships of the same vintage had Weir double effect vacuum sets with concertina elements that were the bee's knees.
Until the next battle of wills,
Jim

Bob_F
31st March 2009, 06:37
Phil if you look up Sulfamic Acid on Wikepedia it give a number of good reasons to use it for evaps. When operating the system on the Mangla we tried to keep the salinity of the evap around 2/32(Sea water was 1/32.) by increasing or decreasing the flow to the brining pump. The evaps that Jim S metions, made by Maxim Silencer were installed on some of Brocks ships I can't remember which ones.
Cheers.
Bob_F

Graham Wallace
31st March 2009, 18:28
BP's SS"British Respect" had 2 Caird and Raynor Vavacs fitted, one on bled steam, the other on live - can't remember much about them apart from as a cadet having to chip the scale off the evaporating elements, cold shocking having failed miserably.

Duncan

Yes I remember them, C&R Vavacs I think on the Justice back in '59 and also as an apprentice. Oh to have descaling powder/liquids and airconditioned control rooms!
If I remember correctly the coils looked very badly abused after beating the hell out of them in the 'percussion' descaling method.
I also think the descaled chips always ended up inside my boiler suit

Graham

Philthechill
2nd April 2009, 23:40
Yes I remember them, C&R Vavacs I think on the Justice back in '59 and also as an apprentice. Oh to have descaling powder/liquids and airconditioned control rooms!
If I remember correctly the coils looked very badly abused after beating the hell out of them in the 'percussion' descaling method.
I also think the descaled chips always ended up inside my boiler suit

Graham Graham! I don't think the C&R 'vaps had coils per se. I seem to recall they were a sort of box-like arrangement made out of stainless-steel or something similar (Monel, possibly?).

I know the old Weir's HP 'vaps had copper coils and they always looked very sad as they had seven bells of crap knocked out of them, over many years of use, by over-enthusiastic use of chipping-hammers to get rid of the scale build-up! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

japottinger
3rd April 2009, 16:46
The Manipur had a Weir evap., and was fed steam from a "steam generator". Odd name but it took its steam from the main boilers, cannot recall if it fed anything else, could this be to avoid taking superheated steam direct from the FW boilers?

Steve Hodges
10th April 2009, 17:11
Graham! I don't think the C&R 'vaps had coils per se. I seem to recall they were a sort of box-like arrangement made out of stainless-steel or something similar (Monel, possibly?).

I know the old Weir's HP 'vaps had copper coils and they always looked very sad as they had seven bells of crap knocked out of them, over many years of use, by over-enthusiastic use of chipping-hammers to get rid of the scale build-up! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Early C&R evaps had copper coils. The "Vavac" model that came in the late 60's had the pierced-box monel element , which was patented under the name "Vaflex". I know this because I had to put it all in my B.P engineer cadet's logbook - BP sent me for six weeks workshop training at C&R at the end of my first year at Poplar Tech in 1969.
Their factory was in Commercial Road ( No.777 if I remember rightly, close to King Ted's). It was an old victorian building that was originally a button factory - you could still find horn buttons jammed in the cracks in the floorboards. The whole place was like something out of Dickens. Every morning one of the labourers would go out to the courtyard at the back and light a fire of old packing cases in an oil-drum brazier, then at tea-break time all the fitters would toast their sandwiches on forks around it. That was the "canteen facilities".
While I was there they were building three enormous Vavac evaporators to retrofit in the aircraft carrier Ark Royal. All the fittings were of bronze and gunmetal, must have cost a fortune, and all a complete waste because the Ark Royal was scheduled for scrapping anyway! It was an interesting few weeks anyway, I stayed in the old Mariner's Hotel just up the road, which was an education in itself.
Regards to all
Steve

eriskay
31st May 2009, 21:15
My personal recollection of Caird & Rayner marine evaporators was 'basic but reliable enough - if looked after'. Like Graham Wallace, I remember the 'British Justice' Vavac units well (1966), and apart from the ongoing and inevitable problem of scaling and fickle salinometers, we had little problems on these units.

As a Weir man for most of my days after leaving the sea, I should not say this, but Caird & Rayner were a fairly solid company dating back to around 1890, and their sea water distilling apparatus was on par with that of George Clark, Weir, and Buckley & Taylor. Indeed, it was the distilled water from C & R evaporating equipment that the Turbinia boilers were fed, and thereafter the major units of the Royal Navy powered by Parsons steam turbines.

Their 'Vavac' units were normally fitted with monel coils (although my memory of the Justice suggests Cu material) and low-pressure steam was used, if I recall correctly, from one of the the Steam-to-Steam generators, but with possibly the alternative of a bled steam supply. (43 years later the memory cells are becoming scaled too!)

Regarding cleaning of coils, I have no recollection of any form of scale control - my memory is that every 4 weeks or so, one of the evaps was taken out of service for manual decsaling of the coils, with the other evap being brought on line whilst that was happening. Descaling technique was crude, battering into it with a blunt-ish instrument such as a weighty flogging spanner, avoiding the tempting use of something sharper and more effective - such as a chipping hammer - for fear of damaging the coils.

I think C & R manufactured single, double and triple effect evaporators, typical output rates being from 35 - 250 cubic metres per day (8,000 to 55,000 imperial gallons)

The C & R units on the 32 and 42 class BPTC ships were used for producing fresh water from the sea, and final product quality varied but was typically of the order of 50-80 ppm if the unit was working well. This product in turn was then passed through a Weir Evaporator for final 'polishing' to Boiler Feed quality, usually a few ppm.

Mention is made to 'Hagevap'. Hagevap was a polyphosphate scale and corrosion inhibitor treatment used extensively in the early days of thermal seawater distillation plant. The role of a polyphosphate treatment was to convert the scaling product to a soft and easily removed 'sludge', rather than the harder-to-deal-with calcium carbonate, or worse, calcium sulphate deposits on heat exchange surfaces. 'Calgon' was also used, to a lesser degree, as it was not as effective as Hagevap, which had proven itself on the first of the large multi-stage flash units in Kuwait, providing operating at temperatures not exceeding 90 degrees C.

As time moved on, and Plant designs and outputs increased, with greater efficiencies being demanded, new anti-scale treatments were developed by the chemical industry to cope with top temperatures of 121 degrees C, and outputs of up to six million gallons per day coupled with a design availability factor of 340 days per annum at MCR - quite a tough demand for a process subject to fairly onerous and hostile operating conditions.

C & R later became 'Caird & Rayner Clark' - does anyone know if the 'Clark' in question the erstwhile well-known Hull firm of George Clark & Sons, who were a part of the Newman Hender Group, and specialised in small to medium package distillation units, using waste heat or own generated heat source?

I forget to mention above, I too had little success with the theoretical 'cold shocking' method of descaling, tried it with very modest success only and always ended up substituting science with brawn!

Angus

Derek Roger
31st May 2009, 23:05
Phil,
If my memory serves me well I think the Maipura had a Caird and Raynor as well as a Wiers HP evap which produced very little and was a pain !

The Caird and Raynor was a bit difficult to set up but did produce a lot of water .
There was a tank on the Port side engine room which was used to descale the heat exchanger element right next to the Evap .
The Cassab had observed this magical descaling ( using Hagevap I think ) and decided to use it to wash the engineers boiler suits ( which was his perk )
The result was a hand full of brass buttons and a bunch of engineers with few boiler suits .

The taylors in Calcutta had a field day making new ones . Best thing about a Calcutta boiler suit is that you could order it with short sleeves ( Not possible in Glasgow )

Mahout and Markor also had LP Evaps which could be used either with main engine cooling water or steam to the coil.
Mahsud and Maihar also had LP Evaps which could produce about 28 tonnes per day but did not have the Steam option .

Happy Days Derek

ccurtis1
1st June 2009, 20:16
Never came across C & R vaps, but in the early years sailed with Weirs vaps, which needed constant attention, which made little difference as he blasted things always primed, and we made about 10 tons of good salt water every day. I thank the days when the "Atlas" vap was installed.

Billieboy
1st June 2009, 21:34
On the "Llanishen", we had two Caird and Rayner vavacs, both were originally coils later the after one was converted to the. "Box", element. The vaps were supposed to be forty ton per day, they never got thirty, and with two on perhaps fifty tons. There was a distinct difference in performance between the two, with the after one being the worst. Eventually the Third cracked it, the balance line to the brine pump,(two decks below), had a half inch screw lift valve coming off the salt feed line, a condom was found to be blocking it!