Blue Funnel Heyday.

[Hugh Ferguson]

I believe most would agree that the 1950's decade was the heyday of the typical cargo liner era. It was a time when, on sighting such a ship emerging over the horizon, she could be readily identified as a City, a Shaw Savill & Albion, a Clan, a Brocklebank, a Danish Ostasiatiske Kompagni Aktieselskabet Det, a Koninklijke Paketvaart Maatschappij, a Glen, a Bluey, an Osaka Shosen Kabushiki Kaisha, a B.I., a Hamburg-Amerikanishe Packetfahrt Actien Gesellschaft, or yet many another of that incredibly varied fleet of merchant ships that ploughed the seas during that glorious era when ships had character and all retained their distinctive livery.
In the middle of that decade, 1955, I happened to be a pilot in the Port of Aden and it was in that very year that the number of ships calling there exceeded 5,000. During my near two years in Aden I piloted 1,204 ships, and of those 62 were of my old company, the Blue Funnel & Glen Line.
That is an astonishing 5% of the total. It's little wonder that Blue Funnel was a bye-word amongst the 12 working pilots, (four to an eight hour watch) a 13th pilot being the one having a day off during a week.

[Bill Davies]

Hugh,

I certainly have fond memories of my Blue Funnel experience of the 50s.
I often heard many an old China Boat hand say that it was all over around 1970. I recall having a drink in Chester in 66 with a mutual friend, Hughie Davies who said that the 'heydays' had passed.

Brgds
Bill

[jmcg]

I was at the tail end of what only be described at not only a means of transport but a way of life. I was part of the rapid demise of a once mighty "China".

Very sad.

BW

J

[jmcg]

Further to above post; in latter years the China was employing a lot of chaps from the "Pool". I certainly noticed a dimunition of skills and discipline among the new chaps. Long hair was creeping in and the long distilled discipline was diluted by poor application and attitude.

The "contract men" i.e. PO's, leading seamen and old hands witnessed a disturbing trend; one that eventually consumed them. By 1978 it was all over as we knew it.

BW

J

[benjidog]

Hugh has asked me to move this thread to the Blue Funnel forum so I have done so and left a one-week redirection notice.

[Ian6]

Hugh
Totally agree, the fifties were the peak, the sixties saw the beginning of the decline and then it was all downhill.
Equally must agree that 'blue flue' ships were the most recognisable since they all had similar, beautiful and classic lines. I am a bit disappointed that your list of Aden visitors omits P&O since we were greeted by the signal station with the combination of House and Royal Mail flags that signalled the arrival of mail from home and P&O established a coaling station at Aden (fed by sailing ships) to refuel its Far East steam ships before the Suez Canal existed.
That said I always admired the wonderful lines of an Alfred Holt ship - blue funnel or red.
Ian

[Pat Kennedy]

I remember the Aden pilots, all very grand figures in spotless whites, they looked to me like visiting rear admirals.
As far as I can remember, the Aden pilot only spoke to the Old Man, he certainly never addressed the helmsman directly.
Similarly in Hong Kong and Singapore.
Regards,
Pat

[Barber Hector]

I was in the old company from 1958 to 1988 when they chucked their hand in as regards shipping. Lots of changes along the line but one thing I will say that the crew, be it deck, victualling or ER remained of good quality in spite of what JMCG says in #4, to the end. I have great respect for the BF ratings and I dont ever recall any trouble with drugs or violence. Hangovers yes, didnt we all.

[ROBERT HENDERSON]

PAT
I am not surprised that the pilot did not address the helmsman directly. As a Master on coastal ships the pilot notes stated that the pilot will give instruction through the master or his delegate ie the OOW. In practice often the pilot would actually steer himself, this however would not be possible on bigger ships.
With Hugh's remarks regarding other companies, when I was deep sea or coasting we could invariably tell what company a ship belonged to before we saw her colours. Towards the end of my sea career I think all the charm had gone out of seagoing, that era were certainly happy days, even in rough hungry Baron boats

Regards Robert

[Pat Kennedy]

Robert,
Of course what you say is true, but in practice, many pilots would directly address the helmsman, particularly if a very quick reaction was required. Amsterdam, Hamburg and Rotterdam pilots were very friendly and chatted affably to whoever was in the wheelhouse.
One pilot entering New York, talked to me about the Beatles who were currently appearing in NY,and gave me a big cigar once we got alongside.
I cant imagine that happening with Blue Funnel appropriated pilots East of Suez, as I said, they were very grand.
Pat

[TonyAllen]

China boats from 55 /60 and yes I agree they were the days to look back on and in that period thats when they pulled down the old overhead railway and that to me was warning sign about the docks Tony allen

[Hugh Ferguson]

Hugh
Totally agree, the fifties were the peak, the sixties saw the beginning of the decline and then it was all downhill.
Equally must agree that 'blue flue' ships were the most recognisable since they all had similar, beautiful and classic lines. I am a bit disappointed that your list of Aden visitors omits P&O since we were greeted by the signal station with the combination of House and Royal Mail flags that signalled the arrival of mail from home and P&O established a coaling station at Aden (fed by sailing ships) to refuel its Far East steam ships before the Suez Canal existed.
That said I always admired the wonderful lines of an Alfred Holt ship - blue funnel or red.
Ian

Sorry about that, Ian-very remiss of me! Do you recall P&O had their own tug, Lahej, in Aden. We weren't permitted to use it for ships, other than P&O,
except in exceptional circumstances. Regards, Hugh.

[R651400]

The "contract men" i.e. PO's, leading seamen and old hands witnessed a disturbing trend; one that eventually consumed them. By 1978 it was all over as we knew it.

Except Maersk, NDL and flourishing Far East companies Evergreen, OOCL and that grand old Scottish Company that still keeps the Red Duster above the waves.. Andrew Weir.

[Bill Davies]

Robert,
Of course what you say is true, but in practice, many pilots would directly address the helmsman, particularly if a very quick reaction was required. Amsterdam, Hamburg and Rotterdam pilots were very friendly and chatted affably to whoever was in the wheelhouse.
One pilot entering New York, talked to me about the Beatles who were currently appearing in NY,and gave me a big cigar once we got alongside.
I cant imagine that happening with Blue Funnel appropriated pilots East of Suez, as I said, they were very grand. Pat

Pat,

Interesting.
I relieved a Master of a HK registered O/O carrier (+165k) back in 79 and he had been for many years Chief Pilot in Penang. Hailing from Pitlochry and in his late 70s he had lost none of the 'Grandness' of his former glory and more so as we were the only 'round eyes' on board. Yes, I remember the Pilot Boats with armchair on stern with large umbrella.
Unfortunately, the ship had never carried Oil since built and entered a T/C for carriage Oil Jebel Dhanna/Quintero Bay ( hence the reason I was relieving him).
On a lighter note, disturbed on handover with the question 'Inert Gas??'


Bill

PS : Hugh Ferguson another mutual friend of ours!!

[Hugh Ferguson]

I remember the Aden pilots, all very grand figures in spotless whites, they looked to me like visiting rear admirals.
As far as I can remember, the Aden pilot only spoke to the Old Man, he certainly never addressed the helmsman directly.
Similarly in Hong Kong and Singapore.
Regards,
Pat

You've got the wrong pilot service there, Pat. You must be thinking of the Hooghly, or Singapore lot-we were never in that class! Hugh.

[Bill Davies]

Robert,
Of course what you say is true, but in practice, many pilots would directly address the helmsman, particularly if a very quick reaction was required. Amsterdam, Hamburg and Rotterdam pilots were very friendly and chatted affably to whoever was in the wheelhouse.
One pilot entering New York, talked to me about the Beatles who were currently appearing in NY,and gave me a big cigar once we got alongside.
I cant imagine that happening with Blue Funnel appropriated pilots East of Suez, as I said, they were very grand.
Pat

Pat,

I used to insist that helmsmen repeated all helm orders in a loud voice and receive affirmative eye contact from me. The Bridge Team would all be well acquainted with my requirements. There would be no room for error.
One or two mishaps in the early 70s made me a Pilots nightmare I have to say.

Brgds
Bill

[Pat Kennedy]

Pat,

I used to insist that helmsmen repeated all helm orders in a loud voice and receive affirmative eye contact from me. The Bridge Team would all be well acquainted with my requirements. There would be no room for error.
One or two mishaps in the early 70s made me a Pilots nightmare I have to say.

Brgds
Bill

Bill,
That was the way I was taught in the China, and I always did it like that.
Pat

[jmcg]

With one exception perhaps - if I can recall - when the Suez Pilot would order "KEEP HER IN THE MIDDLE".

To that one order my response was along the lines "in the middle she is and in the middle she will remain". It caused a bit of a stir in the w/house. The OM looked on in shock although he did have "a word" with me afterwards.

The Pilot was happy enough with the response.

BW

J

[Bill Davies]

Bill,
That was the way I was taught in the China, and I always did it like that.
Pat

Pat,

I can recognize quality when I hear it.

Brgds

Bill

[Bill Davies]

With one exception perhaps - if I can recall - when the Suez Pilot would order "KEEP HER IN THE MIDDLE".

To that one order my response was along the lines "in the middle she is and in the middle she will remain". It caused a bit of a stir in the w/house. The OM looked on in shock although he did have "a word" with me afterwards.

The Pilot was happy enough with the response.

BW

J

I can understand why!

Bill

[bev summerill]

blue funel was much improved when eds came along with much more practical officers and no bull s**t with tickets which were different to blue flue bev summerill

[Bill Davies]

blue funel was much improved when eds came along with much more practical officers and no bull s**t with tickets which were different to blue flue bev summerill

Improved? More practical officers? 'Tickets !

Please expand as I am sure there are many BF Mates out there that would have the opinion there was a'dumbing down' with the integration of EDs

Bill

[jmcg]

As different as chalk and cheese. Culture was alien to me on Forcados, Degema and Obuassi.

Sombre, morbid and crews lacking intellectual rigour. Forcados was a good feeder- probably the best I have experienced.

BW

J

[john meekin]

With one exception perhaps - if I can recall - when the Suez Pilot would order "KEEP HER IN THE MIDDLE".

To that one order my response was along the lines "in the middle she is and in the middle she will remain". It caused a bit of a stir in the w/house. The OM looked on in shock although he did have "a word" with me afterwards.

The Pilot was happy enough with the response.

BW

J
I remember on a Wilsons 10 day boat round Oslo fjord we used to get the order "nothing to port,(or starboard),some times it was "nothing to port or starboard,that realy kept us on our toes,and we never hit anything.Regards John meekin

[Peter Martin]

Remenber eons ago as an apprentice going up the Elbe having just picked up the pilot near Cuxhaven the Skipper asking me to take a bearing. I shouted the bearing from the wing of the bridge and the W African helmsman repeated the bearing and went to alter course to it! OM screamed at him to stay 'steady' and at me for confusing the quartermaster.
I still go red at the thought of it now!

[Bill Davies]

Peter,

Sounds like an extract from the 'Don't Panic - Write an Report' post.

Brgds
Bill

[eldersuk]

As different as chalk and cheese. Culture was alien to me on Forcados, Degema and Obuassi.

Sombre, morbid and crews lacking intellectual rigour. Forcados was a good feeder- probably the best I have experienced.

BW

J

You should have stuck around, you might have learned something from a company that was older than BF and lasted longer (just).

[Chris Isaac]

Oh this is going to be good, reminiscent of the Clan - Union Castle merger (or take over as the Clan liners seem to think).

Clan Line men not knowing how to hold a knife and fork, UC men not knowing what a cargo hold was etc etc.

Seconds away..... Round one!

[jmcg]

#28

Sorry Chris - this ex Bluie is not going to engage with those of other outfits!!! Much too wise for that.


BW

J

[K urgess]

Not outside here, Gents.
So let's be very friendly and funny about this, please.

[trucker]

should this thread not be named HAY DAYS.as poster,s seem to like throwing verbal ,straw punches.(Jester)

[Hugh Ferguson]

Pat,

I used to insist that helmsmen repeated all helm orders in a loud voice and receive affirmative eye contact from me. The Bridge Team would all be well acquainted with my requirements. There would be no room for error.
One or two mishaps in the early 70s made me a Pilots nightmare I have to say.

Brgds
Bill

This comment has got me reflecting on my experiences with regard to the master/pilot relationship. One thing it makes me realise is how lucky I was not to have found myself piloting one of Uncle Bill's commands-the job can be stressful enough at times without the thought of the captain breathing down one's neck!
So, what have my thoughts come up with on this issue-not a lot despite the very few occasions of drama, collision and grounding etc.. The only experience I can recall of a captain actually counter-manding my actions was a very minor thing: he went to the telegraph, and without a word to anyone, rang half speed (to avoid a possible "wash" claim) and he was completely justified in doing so.
In the major collision of the Chantala and the Hudson Light no helm or telegraph orders I gave were disputed, no heated words exchanged-all parties involved maintained an orderly relationship and the same applied when I had the misfortune to put a 7,000 ton Swedish cargo ship aground on the Goodwin. (In that instance, as I was able to get the ship off without too much trouble, I asked the captain if he might forbear from reporting it to his owners. He demurred, but reassured me that after he had had a look at the bottom plates in the Newcastle dry-dock where they were going after London, he would 'phone me. He was good to his word and reported no evidence of a grounding which information persuaded me to let sleeping dogs lie!) I cannot imagine a better, or more amicable relationship with a fellow seaman than that!
The worst-if you can even call it that-was with the captain of a Union Castle passenger liner. Those ships customarily came roaring up to the Dungeness cutter in the evening in order to make a very leisurely over-night passage to arrive at Tilbury Landing Stage about breakfast time. On account of a forecast of snow I was anxious to get on with the 70 odd miles pilotage, and requested sea speed for the first half. They insisted on remaining at the reduced speed. I'm afraid I rather lost my cool at that and somewhat pompously requested that, as my "advice" had been rejected, it should be noted in the log. Well, it did snow just as we were transitting the Downs, and an unnecessarily long ten hours of piloting found us arriving at Gravesend at the appointed time. I apologised to the captain and left. So why Uncle Bill appears to have evolved such a suspicious relationship with pilots really surprises me.
One of the things that used to bug me during my early time piloting-54 years ago in Aden-were the captains, mostly the German ones I seem to recall, who occasionally made the rather personal observation that I looked too young to be a pilot! Oh, to be that again!!

[Bill Davies]

Hugh,
Ever the diplomat, and a post designed to diffuse some of the heat in the previous posts. Well done! In my early years in command I had more than my fair share of bad experiences which made me very watchful as the result of too many Pilot assisted damages where the Pilot walked away leaving me burning the midnight oil explaining the situation to an owner who did not take prisoners. However, to absolve myself somewhat, I did experience many a fine Pilot, one a SN member Tony Crompton, who over 30 years ago, 11/78, performed a very professional piece of work on a Cape Size Bulk carrier I was Master of. I was complimented on Tony's departure on my own coolness which was the result of 7 years with old DK.

Brgds

Uncle Bill

[sidsal]

Very interested in Bill and Hugh's reminiscences ! Re helm orders being misunderstood - how about this -
Fort Camosun - Late 1943 or early 1944. Loaded war supplies in Baltimore 24 hours a day and sailed in a rush to catch a convoy to Meddy. Capt and pilot on starboard bridge wing. On coming to a bend in the river pilot shouts - "Starboard wheel"
Helmsman - "Starboard wheel it is Sir"
Pilot, after a minute or two shouts _ "More wheel "
Helmsan - "Port wheel" and puts the wheel to port.
Pilot, seeing he head falling off shouts - " Hard over"
Helmsman _ " Hard over"
And we ran aground whilst going full ahead.
We had tugs galore but nothing would shift her and we were there for 2 days.
We were opposite a big shipyard and in those 2 days there were 2 or 3 Liberty ships launched. There was no ceremony - the hulls just entered the river and pssing tugs would nudge them back to their berths.
Eventually, after another session with tugs there was a respite and then a tug approached at speed and went head on to our bow. When he hit his mast nearly topppled forward - twanging rigging etc, The shock pushed us afloat again. Naturally we missed the convoy and joined a later one.

[non descript]

Very interested in Bill and Hugh's reminiscences ! Re helm orders being misunderstood - how about this -
Fort Camosun - Late 1943 or early 1944. ....


I would suggest early 1944 is likely, on the basis that "3 December 1943 at position 11° 23'N/46° 03E, damaged by Japanese submarine I-27 commanded by Fukumura" (http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=20674)

[Hugh Ferguson]

What a catalogue of misunderstanding, Sidsal! We've all experienced similar but I never heard of anything that could match that!
I love the one of a Bluey making its way up the Elbe at the time, in the late 20's, early 30's?? when helm orders were changed (see Titanic film before that change) and starboard helm became starboard helm. As midnight struck a new helmsman arrived at the wheel having had it drummed into him exactly what that meant. Unfortunately, he was the only one who remembered that, and when the pilot ordered "starboard the helm" he put the wheel to starboard and not to port as had been the previous custom. When the stocky pilot and the also stocky captain realised they were going the wrong way there was rush into the wheelhouse and both became wedged in the narrow doorway, or so it is recalled.
On the long drag up from Dungeness to Gravesend I frequently found myself alone in the wheelhouse with the man at the wheel-the mate in the chartroom, the master turned in. It was then that I found it useful to give the courses in one or two other languages such as, Spanish, Italian and French. Greek I never mastered and German, or Scandinavian ships it was not necessary.
In my early days I thought I was being smart ordering "babord" to a Norwegian helmsman-he didn't understand what I meant, but fortunately the captain was at hand to enlighten me that all Scandinavian helmsmen would expect to be addressed in English. Just as well to remember that as well to use "right" or "left" in American ships.

[IAN M]

Hello Hugh

We met on the web several years ago concerning our mutual friend, Dugald McNab.

I believe I joined Holts about the same time you did.

Ian Malcolm

[Bill Davies]

Oh this is going to be good, reminiscent of the Clan - Union Castle merger (or take over as the Clan liners seem to think).

Clan Line men not knowing how to hold a knife and fork, UC men not knowing what a cargo hold was etc etc.

Seconds away..... Round one!

Chris,
Your posts leave me a little perplexed.
Several days ago you asked about Indicator Cards (they were in our syllabus) and above you suggest that you knew little of cargo holds (I am sure you are jesting).
Can you tell us what you Junior Officers in Passenger ships did or, is that a answer you would prefer to give after the 2100 watershed.

Brgds

Bill

[Hugh Ferguson]

Bill, You really are the limit!!!!

[Chris Isaac]

Chris,
Your posts leave me a little perplexed.
Several days ago you asked about Indicator Cards (they were in our syllabus) and above you suggest that you knew little of cargo holds (I am sure you are jesting).
Can you tell us what you Junior Officers in Passenger ships did or, is that a answer you would prefer to give after the 2100 watershed.

Brgds

Bill

Sense of humour bypass I feel!

[Bill Davies]

Bill, You really are the limit!!!!

Hugh,

A perfectly valid question and one that has been in my mind for some time. I have absolutely no experience of that lifestyle and in 50 years I can count on one hand the times that I can recall women being on board (officially). Perhaps a valid answer might throw up other questions

Brgds
Bill

[Chris Isaac]

Hugh,

A perfectly valid question and one that has been in my mind for some time. I have absolutely no experience of that lifestyle and in 50 years I can count on one hand the times that I can recall women being on board (officially). Perhaps a valid answer might throw up other questions

Brgds
Bill

Ok I will try to answer your question as it seems that you have a gap in your seagoing experiences (passenger ships). This will be a bit "off topic" but you did ask!

Passengers are a form of cargo like any other the principal exception being that all officers are not only responsible for their stowage but also for their welfare and safety during their time on board. Consequently companies such as Union Castle, P & O, Cunard et al tended to staff these ships with their best officers. It was generally the case with Union Castle and I expect with the others that there was a Masters certificate on the bridge at all times.
The fact that officers on these ships probably eat a little better than cargo, tanker or tramp ship officers and also were expected to embrace some of the social graces does not in any way diminish the standards of professionalism or seamanship found on these more prestigious vessels in fact the opposite may well be the case.
I would also draw to your attention to the fact that many passenger vessels carried a significant amount of cargo, all the Union Castle Mail Ships carried more cargo that most Blue Funnel ships, who do you think was responsible for the stowage of the cargo and stability of the ship?
At sea the officer of the watch had over 2000 lives reliant upon his abilities and on a ship travelling must faster than any Blue Funnel ship. Professional Seamen, of course we were! Were there any perks to the job? Yes a few but they came with added responsibilities.
I note that you were never on such ships, perhaps that is for the best.

[Bill Davies]

Ok I will try to answer your question as it seems that you have a gap in your seagoing experiences (passenger ships). This will be a bit "off topic" but you did ask!

Passengers are a form of cargo like any other the principal exception being that all officers are not only responsible for their stowage but also for their welfare and safety during their time on board. Consequently companies such as Union Castle, P & O, Cunard et al tended to staff these ships with their best officers. It was generally the case with Union Castle and I expect with the others that there was a Masters certificate on the bridge at all times.
The fact that officers on these ships probably eat a little better than cargo, tanker or tramp ship officers and also were expected to embrace some of the social graces does not in any way diminish the standards of professionalism or seamanship found on these more prestigious vessels in fact the opposite may well be the case.
I would also draw to your attention to the fact that many passenger vessels carried a significant amount of cargo, all the Union Castle Mail Ships carried more cargo that most Blue Funnel ships, who do you think was responsible for the stowage of the cargo and stability of the ship?
At sea the officer of the watch had over 2000 lives reliant upon his abilities and on a ship travelling must faster than any Blue Funnel ship. Professional Seamen, of course we were! Were there any perks to the job? Yes a few but they came with added responsibilities.
I note that you were never on such ships, perhaps that is for the best.

Many thanks for your comprehensive response. Yes, there were gaps in my experience which I stated in earlier post and initiated the question.

[Bill Davies]

Thanks again Kris. I'll have to take more care.

Bill

[K urgess]

All part of the service, Bill.
You need to keep the bold characters off the square brackets and make sure all the square brackets are present.
Regards
Kris

[Bill Davies]

Enjoyed dinner last night with an old Anselmian school friend who spent his working life in India Buildings working for the China
Talked about people who never had a real job but would walk from office to office with a piece of A4 in their hands and disappear to the various pubs around noon not to be seen again until 1500hrs.
There were many customs in the China which I did not experience in subsequent British companies which make me think was this 'HEYDAY' imaginary or real. The 'crowd' were relieved immediately the last line ashore in Gladstone and did not join until sailing day. Impact/interface with the Shoregang. Should there be another thread..'The Demise of the China'.
Working for literally dozens of differents owners from 61/2005 it is easy to see where BF got it wrong in the end.

Brgds

Bill

[Hugh Ferguson]

It's an old, old, old thing and it's called complacency and it sets in when a certain lifestyle takes over. You can see it vividly displayed at this very moment by the mess our politicians have got themselves into.
Yes, Bill, a perfectly valid question, if a tad sharply pointed. I must admit (apart from the pilot thing) there's not much about which I do not see eye to eye with you.

[Bill Davies]

Hugh,
I would not read too much into the pilot 'hang up' as it is borne out of my own personal experience and working in my early years as Master for an owner who was very demanding. I was as relieved as the next to see the North Sea Pilot at Brixham although on one occasion I had to send one (Hutchinsons..I think!) off the Bridge immediately on boarding as he was 'well oiled'. You are what life throws at you and cope the best you can. I sailed one of the Bantry class from Whiddy without a Pilot or tugs because of Tug protocol being abused. DK stood behind me although I am not too sure I would have survived should I have caused damage. Brgds

Bill

[Bill Davies]

Hugh,
A paper on 'complacency' was recently published by one of the senior men in the MAIB (not that that means he's right). Further, its use has been well used in the preliminary finding of the most recent Maritime Accidents in the Channel. Maybe we should initiate a new thread so entitled. I noticed complacency creeping in from the 80s on . Probably started a lot earlier in British Flag but, was not there when I left in 68.
Brgds
Bill

[florian]

A little bit off subject but still Blue Funnel.

My uncle born 1894 lost his life on HMS Newbury Nth Atlantic Convoys Sept 1941. Pre WW2 he was working on the Blue Funnel Line ships sailing from Cardiff or Liverpool to South America.

His mother, my Grandma used to receive postcards from him of the ships he sailed on. Some of the postcards were mailed at Montevedio.

This was during the 1930s. I never saw the postcards. Were these ships cargo or passenger ships.

Bill in Melbourne.

[Hugh Ferguson]

This is a "thumbnail" of an original section of a cargo plan beautifully constructed by the purser (Hemingway, I believe), on Voy.17, 19th Aug./15th Dec.1950, in the Glenroy.

[teb]

Bill in Melbourne- As an ex Blue Funnel Man I have never heard of Blue Funnel trading to South America!!!! Blue Star yes!!! Teb in Perth

[Hugh Ferguson]

This is a "thumbnail" of an original section of a cargo plan beautifully constructed by the purser (Hemingway, I believe), on Voy.17, 19th Aug./15th Dec.1950, in the Glenroy.

This cargo was loaded, as usual, by the mate who in this instance was Mr R.H.Carruthers. Despite making two voyages with Mr Carruthers I never learned that he had been the sole surviving deck officer from the sinking of the Stentor, one of the 13 ships lost in convoy SL125, over seven days of continous attack by U.Boats.
This was, in all probability, the worst loss of life suffered in the sinking of one of the company's ships-45 of the 247 persons on board were lost when a torpedo exploded in a deep tank loaded with palm oil which descended in a sheet of flame all over the bridge structure. The Stentor sank in less than ten minutes!
It had always been thought that this attack had diverted those U.Boats from attacking the huge troop convoy on its way to the N.African landings.
On his second voyage in the Glenroy, Mr Carruthers was taken out of the ship in Singapore to go as master in a company ship whose captain had been taken ill. It was extremely sad to hear that not long after, Mr Carruthers died. I still have the letter from his wife, to whom I sent condolences, in which she mentioned how often her husband had referred to those happy Glenroy days. He had been awarded the M.B.E., and I never knew that either, until I had read the book. We shall remember them.

[Bill Davies]

This is a "thumbnail" of an original section of a cargo plan beautifully constructed by the purser (Hemingway, I believe), on Voy.17, 19th Aug./15th Dec.1950, in the Glenroy.

Like so many things Hugh. Skills lost and not to be seen again. Can't claim to have acquired experience in this area save for time as a junior mate in British GC tramps early 60s. Mind you, have carried oils where the cargo plan was like a kaleidoscope.

Brgds

Bill

[Hugh Ferguson]

Like so many things Hugh. Skills lost and not to be seen again. Can't claim to have acquired experience in this area save for time as a junior mate in British GC tramps early 60s. Mind you, have carried oils where the cargo plan was like a kaleidoscope.

Brgds

Bill

Yes, Bill, extraordinary to imagine these days how that plan was duplicated goodness knows how many times-the original was placed in a frame overlaying photographic paper and put out on the boat-deck in the sun, just to make one copy
If you noted the elephants accommodation at the port after end of No.4 centre-castle deck-those unfortunate critturs were bound for Hamburg and would be delivered there in December, the dead of winter!! Initially, after being shipped in Singapore, they were carried on the after deck, but as we got into colder climes they were moved into a very cramped space in the centre-castle where they amused themselves pulling down the barricade that was supposed to keep them from the other cargo. It wasn't long before they began to show signs of suffering from the cold-elephants shiver in slow motion would you believe-and it was then that some bright spark thought a bottle of rum in a bucket of warm water would help, which, as anyone would realise these days, is exactly what you should not do.
Whatever, after the best part of a month they arrived in Hamburg in December 1950. One or more of them could still be alive, as an elephant's life-span is similar to the human. I have a photograph some-place of them being off-loaded.

[Bill Davies]

Hugh,

As much as we old timers reminisce about the China boats, they were not particularly good cargo carriers. Their Cubic Capacity was abysmal when compared with other British Tramps (Watts, Watts et al.) However, I have to hand it to their Mates, they were excellent with the art of stowage.

Brgds

Bill

[Pat Kennedy]

Hugh,

As much as we old timers reminisce about the China boats, they were not particularly good cargo carriers. Their Cubic Capacity was abysmal when compared with other British Tramps (Watts, Watts et al.) However, I have to hand it to their Mates, they were excellent with the art of stowage.

Brgds

Bill
Bill,
I recall canteen discussions concerning cargo capacity of various ships when I worked on the Docks.
The way we estimated capacity, as a rough rule of thumb, was how long it took to load, because the actual cargoes were much the same.
Top of the league in ships sailing from Birkenhead were Bibby Line ships, Herefordshire, Worcestershire etc. These vessels regularly took three weeks to load with general cargo, and that was with seven gangs and a full night shift.
Clan Line were next, taking on average sixteen days, again with night shift, and Blue Funnel were third, followed by City Line, Harrisons, and Paddy Hendersons.
Blue Flue usually loaded in a week, but they sometimes had two gangs per hatch, and more often than not were already carrying some cargo loaded in Glasgow or another coasting port.
China boats always appeared to load more deck cargo than any other company's ships and also had special cargo lockers in the mast houses and other locations.
A ships foreman at the China once told me that when they built the quayside cranes at Vittoria dock, it knocked a day or two off the average time a ship was in Birkenhead.
regards,
Pat

[Bill Davies]

Pat,
Fully understand.
I am however talking about the Bale/Grain capacity differential on the China boats was colossal compared with their tramp counterparts who needed to have a much smaller differential to avail themselves for all types of cargo, Bulk, general etc. Further, the China boats over construction plus Orlop decks etc all had an impact. They were very much built for one trade only.

Brgds

Bill

[Hugh Ferguson]

Pat,
Fully understand.
I am however talking about the Bale/Grain capacity differential on the China boats was colossal compared with their tramp counterparts who needed to have a much smaller differential to avail themselves for all types of cargo, Bulk, general etc. Further, the China boats over construction plus Orlop decks etc all had an impact. They were very much built for one trade only.

Brgds

Bill

Yes indeed, built for the trade. I cannot imagine a more diverse cargo than one loaded in the Far East. Just imagine loading a cargo of that complexity without a pocket calculator, let alone a computer (or even a Biro for that matter). Some chief mates had a slide rule but I don't think I ever sailed with one.

[holland25]

The production of the fair cargo plan was done by the 1st R/O on the Far East run, at least the trips I did in the late 50s. However on the Ulysses it was the job of the 2nd R/O, and it had to be done ready for handing into the agents upon leaving New York. They must have had a better method of reproduction. Once the final loading got going it was full on and more or less a non stop task. I smoked a lot cigarettes and was brought sandwiches, I was also entertained by WNEW and the latest hits. On St Patricks day 1960 for some reason we couldnt sail and the plan was finished so I was able to go ashore, I now bore my family by telling them were I was on St Pats day 1960.

[Bill Davies]

Can't recall their ever being a 2nd Radio Operator on any of the China Boats I sailed in. Or maybe I just did not notice him. What was the training? Age on commencement, length of time before becoming 1st.

Bill

[teb]

Can't recall their ever being a 2nd Radio Operator on any of the China Boats I sailed in. Or maybe I just did not notice him. What was the training? Age on commencement, length of time before becoming 1st.

Bill

Bill- I joined Blue Funnel in 1943 (17yoa) as 3rd RO then promoted 2ndRO then 1st RO- regret can not give dates discharge Book misplaced / lost many years ago during my changes in place of residence. I did not start making cargo plans until I was 1stRO.which included one voyage on Phrontis
Dutch Flag BF.During the time I was with BF/GL never heard them referred to
as China Boats!! (must have been the company I kept!!) Teb(Thumb)

[Bill Davies]

Teb,
This point has been well discussed in the past. It may well have been a deck thing, which I can comment on. I never sailed as a Mate in 'the China boats' (couldn't resist that) as on passing Second Mates (FG) the thought of sailing as Fourth Mate did not appeal. It would therefore be interesting to hear from the BF 'Officer and Gentlemen' fraternity as to whether the term was familiar to them. Otherwise, it was a foc'sle thing.

Brgds

Bill

[trucker]

well put .me old china.(K)

[Bill Davies]

Good one trucker!

Bill

[makko]

Bill,
I think that it was a common term throughout the fleet. I may be wrong but I think it was just Ozzy boats or China boats.I had never paid much attention until it was time to go to sea and my Dad said "Make sure that you get a China boat" - The other options were West Africa, COBRA (India etc.), Bay Boats, tanker/OBO Tantalus/Ajax/ etc., Helenus (reputedly a punishment vessel!) or Barber Blue Sea, which I eventually landed.

By this time, there were almost no vessels going into Vittoria - Ocean vessels (EDs) went into Gladstone, Huskisson etc.BTW, I have never sailed from or arrived to a British port! The closest I got was anchored off Gravesend to load explosives! That just about sums up where the China boats/hands went to!

I remember on a 1977 M Boat - Great consternation when an Eng. Super came onboard and said the engine room was quite hot - He urged us to open another skylight!

Rgds.
Dave

[Bill Davies]

Dave,
I thought as much but I really needed someone else to enter the debate so thanks for that.
So, Teb (me old China) is looks as though you Sparkies led a somewhat cloistered life.

Brgds

Bill

[Pat Kennedy]

Bill,
I think that it was a common term throughout the fleet. I may be wrong but I think it was just Ozzy boats or China boats.I had never paid much attention until it was time to go to sea and my Dad said "Make sure that you get a China boat" - The other options were West Africa, COBRA (India etc.), Bay Boats, tanker/OBO Tantalus/Ajax/ etc., Helenus (reputedly a punishment vessel!) or Barber Blue Sea, which I eventually landed.

By this time, there were almost no vessels going into Vittoria - Ocean vessels (EDs) went into Gladstone, Huskisson etc.BTW, I have never sailed from or arrived to a British port! The closest I got was anchored off Gravesend to load explosives! That just about sums up where the China boats/hands went to!

I remember on a 1977 M Boat - Great consternation when an Eng. Super came onboard and said the engine room was quite hot - He urged us to open another skylight!

Rgds.
Dave

Dave,
By 1977/78, Vittoria Dock was home to PSNC. The likes of Orbita, Oropesa etc, loading for South America, until the mid eighties
After several years of inactivity the Gorthon boats started using it as a discharging berth for steel products. They transferred to Liverpool about four or five years ago and since then it is largely unused except for an occasional RoRo.
Regards,
Pat

[makko]

Thanks Pat.
The Old Fella always used to say,"Oropesa - The golden dollar!". After about 1983 I can count my visits "home" on one hand ('92 being the first!).
Rgds.
Dave

[Bill Davies]

Pat/Dave,

So what exactly is happening on the Birkenhead side?
About a month ago I noticed an RFA ship near the Penny Bridge and that was it.

Bill

[Pat Kennedy]

Bill.
Not a lot is the short answer.
The RFA is Bayleaf in for a refit and probably close to completion now.
The Stolt Avocet is discharging at East Lewis's Quay, which sees about one ship per week.
There are usually one or two coasters on the Birkenhead side of the West Float discharging Bentonite at Reas or steel products at Cavendish Quay, and one or two more on the outboard side of the Clan Line sheds discharging steel products.
Sometimes the Red Duchess is in discharging logs, and there is the odd RoRo at Vittoria Dock again discharging steel. Apart from the Mersey Ferries in for the night, ships in lay up or in for repair, that is it.
Birkenhead is dying slowly but surely.
Pat

[Bill Davies]

Very sad.
The days I used to travel on the bus (10/11) down Gorsey Lane in anticipation of the Duke Street Bridge being up (evident when abeam of Earnie Clares Kiosk on the corner of Gorsedale Road) and thereby causing me to miss the 94 to Manor Hill.

Brgds

Bill

[Peter Martin]

Pat/Dave,

So what exactly is happening on the Birkenhead side?
About a month ago I noticed an RFA ship near the Penny Bridge and that was it.

Bill

Was up t'North yesterday seeing an aged Mum and couldn't resist a drive over the Four Bridges and back via Bidston. Apart from a re-named Mersey Ferry; s*d all!
The 'Clan Line' sign is still witness to the past though. Greatly disappointed that no reference reamins to Blue Funnel though.
Strangely enough, was sitting with Ma the same afternoon and watched 'Lawrence of Arabia' - saw what I thought was an 'M' boat going through the canal.
Quite a day for memories.

[Pat Kennedy]

I couldn't afford the bus Bill, push bike only, and many a time got the front wheel stuck in the railway lines!
Pat

[Bill Davies]

Strangely enough, was sitting with Ma the same afternoon and watched 'Lawrence of Arabia' - saw what I thought was an 'M' boat going through the canal.
Quite a day for memories.

Peter,
I believe it was an 'M' Boat.
Memories are all we have Peter.

Bill

[Trader]

Can't recall their ever being a 2nd Radio Operator on any of the China Boats I sailed in. Or maybe I just did not notice him. What was the training? Age on commencement, length of time before becoming 1st.

Bill

Bill,

There were 2nd Sparks on all the Blueys that I sailed in. I believe he did most of the watch work and the Chief Sparks did all the office work (Pursers job really). He relieved the 2nd. for meals etc.

I can still remember the Chief Sparks on the Bellerophon even though it is 57 years ago. He was a N. Ireland man called Mr. Wilson. He was a very correct man and called every one Mr. from top to deck boy. He used to give out the subs in port and I remember queuing up outside his office one day in Singapore to receive mine when I was deck boy. The man in front of me was an EDH from Wallasey, Ronnie Keagan. Mr. Wilson said "how many dollars do you want Mr. Keegan?" , Ronnies reply was "ten dollars please Sparkie". Mr Wilson cringed and said " Mr. Keegan, I don't call you rope yarn please don't call me Sparkie". That sticks in my mind to this day.

Alec.

[Bill Davies]

Alec,

I have no doubt of the stories authenticity but I heard it when I was in the China. It was a classic.

Bill

[jmcg]

Trader & Bill

The retort referred to @76 brought back memories of me hearing it in the late 60's. No doubt it was a truism and much lauded in the China.

Trader. Only one Sparks on board in my time in the China.

BW

J

[Pat Kennedy]

Its strange how our memories differ. There were always two sparks in my experience, and the junior of the two used to get cargo watching duties in port.
Pat

[teb]

Dave,
I thought as much but I really needed someone else to enter the debate so thanks for that.
So, Teb (me old China) is looks as though you Sparkies led a somewhat cloistered life.

Brgds

Bill

Bill could be but then again maybe (just maybe) it was a saying conjtured up after I had left the company v.early 50's .People tell me I dont look my age so
a mistake easily made!![=P] Regards Teb






9

[Bill Davies]

Dave,
I think the expression goes back a lot further. Like most young men we emulated our peers in our vocabulary. When I started in the Blue Funnel in April 55 I was sailing with men who had been at sea since the great war.
There were certain expressions which I knew differentiated the deck crowd from others one of which 'around the land' which was merely referring to 'coasting'. We were a strange lot and a 'non china Boat man' would quickly be evident..

Brgds

Bill

[makko]

Bill could be but then again maybe (just maybe) it was a saying conjtured up after I had left the company v.early 50's .
Regards Teb

Teb,
Just a thought....Where were you from originally? My family were from Birkenhead/Wallasey. I know Bill hails from B'head. Local people would drink in the same pubs and everyone knew everyone else........It could be that although widespread, China boat could have been a local expression. I can imagine that officers from outside the area would check in at Iliad house and simply go down Duke Street to sign on the next day without visiting the dockland pubs. They would therefore not be aware of the term as, if you were on a China boat, there would be no need to tell anyone else onboard! I know my father would first identify himself with Holts/Blueys and then make the distinction that he was a China boat man.

Rgds.
Dave

[K urgess]

A question from an outsider.
Does the "China" have anything to do with the ships belonging to the China Mutual branch of Alfred Holt's?
Cheers
Kris

[Bill Davies]

Kris,
I think it more simple than that and well explained by Dave. The very fact that the ships ran to China was sufficient together with Merseysiders propensity for shortening everything possible. Everything seemed to be 'the China' and everyone knew what you meant. The catylist could have been how you say.

Dave, me Birkenhead!! Wallasey born and bred. Marymount-Redcourt- St.Anselms.

Brgds

Bill

[Pat Kennedy]

I believe it was the Liverpool/Birkenhead dockers who originated the term 'The China ' when referring to Blue Funnel, the ships, the berths and everything to do with Alfred Holt's organisation.
My uncle who was a deckhand at the China in Gladstone Dock used to say that nobody could pronounce the ship's names so just referred to them as the 'China boat'
BTW I only learned the correct pronunciation of 'Menelaus' when I saw Brad Pitt in Troy. we always called her 'Menalaws'
Pat (Thumb)

[K urgess]

Thanks, Bill & Pat. (Thumb)
As a latecomer to the Mersey it appeared logical but, having sailed out of the 'Pool quite a bit, I can understand how it could get applied to all the ships sailing that way out east rather than just the China Mutual boats.
Cheers
Kris

[Bill Davies]

There has been posts in other threads about pronunciation of China Boat names, in fact I put my foot in it with ‘Rothesian’ an ex China middy about a year ago.
The tales is worth repeating.
If your partner, parent rang India Buildings to enquire the ETA of a certain ship there was a good chance the enquirer would be ‘picked up’ by a very superior Alfred Holt telephonist who would invariable correct the name as asked.
Menalaus on first enquiry would be corrected to ‘Don’t you mean the Men a LAus.’ The question a day later would be vice versa.

No there is a new thread. Alternatives for China Boat names
Brgds

Bill

[makko]

Kris,
Dave, me Birkenhead!! Wallasey born and bred. Marymount-Redcourt- St.Anselms.

Brgds

Bill

OOops! Sorry Bill! It was the St Anselms link that got me!
So, we're both "Foreign Islanders"! I think that the name "Wallasey" is unique. I've never checked it out though.
Rgds.
Dave

[Pat Kennedy]

OOops! Sorry Bill! It was the St Anselms link that got me!
So, we're both "Foreign Islanders"! I think that the name "Wallasey" is unique. I've never checked it out though.
Rgds.
Dave
I think St Anselms provided more than it's fair share of Blue Funnel seamen.
There were four in my class alone. One went to the NZSC but learned the error of his ways and joined the China.

Wallasey, I believe, means 'Welshman's Island'.
Birkenhead means 'evil smelling place,home of the bewildered'.
regards,
Pat[=P]

[holland25]

Whilst in no way disputing that the expression "The China", was how Blue Funnel was referred to. The term that springs to mind naturally, for me, is "Blue Flue".

I believe that the 2nd R/Os disappeared sometime in the mid 60s and that the Pursers work, done by the 1st R/O, became the responsibility of the Male Nurse/Doctor.

I never minded being called Sparks or even Sparkie. The one I liked best, was how the 2nd R/O ended up in Chinese. I was once told that it sounded something like, "FFooey Teng Tin Y". The rough translation was, "Little man without a wire." Mind you, could have been a leg pull.

[Santos]

Well Gents,

One explanation for the name Wallasey is that originally the village of Kirby-in-Walley was ruled by a Reputed Chief and Prime Man called Walley. When the Vikings came from the East and coming to the beach saw the sea, they asked, what or whose sea it was and being answered by the villagers thus ' tiz Wallys Sea ' they henceforth named it Wallazey.

The Chief was also apparantly called Walley of Pooltown hence the Wallazey Pool or as we know it now Wallasey Pool from which that famous watering house the Pool Inn was named.

Chris.

[makko]

Barber Blue Sea M's carried 2/RO in the eighties! RoRos only 1/RO. I don't know about any others! I also liked "Blue Flue". The China boats were gone in my time!

Thanks, Chris. I have always heard that Wallasey came from "Island of the "Welsh" although Welsh can be interpreted as "foreigner" in old english, as the mount of Wallasey was cut off at high tide until the docks were built.

Rgds.
Dave

[Bill Davies]

'Menestheus' was another sure to be corrected to 'Menes Theus'
'Automedon' (Auto Medon)
'Astyanax' this one was strange. Crew Asty Anax ( Mates and Office As Ty anax)

Must be many.

[jmcg]

Autolycus

They "ought to like us" but they dont was a familiar chant on Autolycus. Happy ship.

BW

J