Overtime for "Officers"

charles henry
14th April 2009, 22:38
Whilst money is sweet it appears from various "ex spark's" postings that checking batteries, fixing and servicing equipment or staying on after the end of the watch period to clear traffic was all on "overtime".

When I was sailing as an R/O I did all those things on my own time and never gave it a thought. I considered that as an "officer" such were simply part of my duties which I was well qualified to do. (First class pmg, radar aintenance and C & G Radio, Telcom and Math).

Call me old fashioned but for the life of me I find it difficult to consider an hourly paid employee expecting overtime every time he did something that was essentially part of his "responsibilities" as being an "Officer" in the true definition of what the title means.

I have now donned my Kevlar vest and trousers and await the broadsides
de chas (Pint) (Pint)

lakercapt
14th April 2009, 23:18
On Canadian Lake boats Mates and engineers(as well as all other crew members) are classed as hourly paid workers.
Regular hours are 8 hrs/day Monday to Friday.
All others hours worked are at O/T rates which vary (all laid out out in their contracts).
Works well and sometimes the amount used to make me wonder why I was master.

K urgess
14th April 2009, 23:36
As a MIMCo electronics bod all standard work carried out to ensure the safe operation of the radio station was not chargeable as overtime. That included all the duties mentioned in the PMG Handbook and Marconi's General Orders.
Any overtime earned was only on time spent on "non-essential" equipment and only after ten hours including watches.
72 hours spent on watch working distress or trying to repair the auto alarm did not count as overtime under any circumstances.
Kris

sparkie2182
14th April 2009, 23:43
actually, I had juniors to do that sort of thing.

:)

K urgess
14th April 2009, 23:51
They wouldn't trust me with one. [=P]
Plus the companies I sailed for wouldn't pay for one.

caseman
15th April 2009, 10:20
Am I the only one who remembers that on British MIMCO ships we were paid an extra half days leave for spending more than 8 hours at sea on a Saturday and a whole day for a Sunday. Equivalent to time and a half on Saturdays and double time on Sunday. Was this not 'overtime'? Maybe it changed for you 'youngsters'. (==D)
Regards
David/G4CMQ

trotterdotpom
15th April 2009, 11:47
I'm just a whippersnapper, but, by the late '60s, the half day Saturday had (I think) been consolidated into the salary (about 49 pounds per month from memory. Sundays at Sea were still claimed by filling in a form and signing it - it took me about two trips to realise that nobody would know if I claimed every Sunday on Articles. The Sundays At Sea were given as leave on top of the generous 23 days per year the BOT agreement provided. Compare this with the average 10 days per month that the Shipping Companies gave to their Mates and Engineers.

Nobody ever paid me overtime - like Chas, I just thought it was part of the deal.

John T.

R651400
15th April 2009, 11:56
Never gave overtime a second thought. Blue Funnel employed R/O's on a 24+7+31+365 which was instilled from the original interview, like it or lump it.
£28 pm when I joined which included night watches, daily cargo watches et al.
"Je regrette rien!"

trucker
15th April 2009, 12:33
still didn,t make any where as much overtime,as us mere mortals.deckies,pumpmen,e/r crowd.etc. loss of doss.captive time.normal overtime[=P]

K urgess
15th April 2009, 13:13
Sundays at sea where the norm when I went to sea in 1966 but Saturdays at sea had gone. Sundays at sea ended in 1975. A trip ending on 20th January 1975 I was counting them. When I started my next trip in April 1975 I wasn't.
Up until getting my MED there was no such thing as overtime except as paid by the Old Man when I did cargo watches to give the other deck officers time off in port or did his pay-off slips/typing for him. Purely a personal arrangement. I also did cargo watches and some deck work for free to learn the trade.
Overtime came in when signed on to an REO ship. Even then as I said previously the overtime had to be fully justified and then it was by mutual, individual, agreement with MIMCo. Claiming overtime didn't necessarily mean you would get paid for it.
As far as I was concerned I was there to do a job and if that took 24 hours a day 7 days a week then so be it.

Kris

MARINEJOCKY
15th April 2009, 13:17
I think the lines would have been very long waiting to join the gas boats if the company had been paying over time. I can not remember a day when we did not work at least 10 hours per day, seven days a week and in my case 5 to 6 month trips except for the Humbolt which was a shorter trip but I was on stand-by / working from 6am to midnight every day and that was for just over a 3 month trip. Those hours were for everybody

surfaceblow
15th April 2009, 13:25
In 2001 the wages on the USNS Gilliland for the REO was $175.73 per day and $25.87 per hour over time. All work in excess of 8 hours per day was considered over time due to federal wage and hour laws. The Captain and Chief Engineer are salaried employees and were not covered by the federal law.

I should have added that weekends and holidays were considered overtime.

charles henry
15th April 2009, 13:46
I rather expected a donnybrook but found the replies interesting.

From '47 to '53 you got a day leave for each Sunday but I dont remember anything for Saturdays. However it was always difficult to get permission from MIMCo to take holidays as they were so short staffed, result was most of the holiday leaves were turned in for cash.

Was NEVER once asked to help with cargo checking or any other chore whilst in port, and if I had been I would have refused, simple as that. Seem to remember that pay was in the order of 26 to 29 pounds but that is by memory. On arrival in Canada in '53 my first job was on the Cheticamp, a Canadian ship, $300- per month until I got their radar working and then a raise to $350-, big difference in the attitude of shipping companies.

de chas

Ron Stringer
15th April 2009, 20:29
Am I the only one who remembers that on British MIMCO ships we were paid an extra half days leave for spending more than 8 hours at sea on a Saturday and a whole day for a Sunday. Equivalent to time and a half on Saturdays and double time on Sunday. Was this not 'overtime'? Maybe it changed for you 'youngsters'. (==D)
Regards
David/G4CMQ

David,

At various times from 1960s onwards, at various wage negotiations with the NMB, the unions agreed to incorporate certain items into the basic pay. All sorts of 'additional' allowances were subsumed into salary then, at some later date, to get round the then current government pay policies it was agreed to reinstate some of the allowances and so sidestep a block on wage increases. This went on (and off) over decades. Depending when you were at sea, the R/O may or may not have been paid overtime.

When I was at sea we only got Sundays At Sea (additional day's leave for each one) and I believe that the Old Man had to countersign the MIMCo claim form (memory fading for such details).

K urgess
15th April 2009, 21:24
There's a space for Sundays at sea on the Account of wages, Ron.
Funnily enough only one of mine has been filled in and I can't remember having any arguments about my totals from MIMCo.
I have three different types of Pay-off slips. Long thin ones, small oblong ones (both in buff) and then white one about A4 size. They've all got space for SAS.
Amazingly I have some unused middle size ones as per attached. [=P]

Ron Stringer
15th April 2009, 21:43
There's a space for Sundays at sea on the Account of wages, Ron. [=P]

Ah! That's where it was. I remember that it was subject to the OM's signature but couldn't bring a special form to mind. Knew that MIMCo staff clerks would never accept the word of an R/O about such things in my day. They seemed to have immense power when I was at sea. When I came ashore I recognised them for what they were - the name on the box told you all. In the shore-side organisation they were very lowly souls. It was just an example of ''kick the cat.''

I only ever saw the long, narrow, brown Accounts of Wages forms; was gone ashore before anything more modern came into being.

James_C
15th April 2009, 21:57
Kris,
You never cease to amaze me with what you dig out from the 'archive'!
I'm a chronic 'hoarder' myself, as 'her indoors' will testify, although I have some way to go before I get to your level!
(Thumb)

K urgess
15th April 2009, 22:11
It's just an accumulation, Jim.
I did get some museum training as keeper of exhibits/curator in a past life and now I can't throw away anything I reckon other people will just shred.
I used to go to a lot of auctions and when you buy a box of books it can come with all sorts of added bits and pieces. Plus if you're at an auction you can't really neglect the things other people don't bid on. [=P]

Only one ship looks to have noted any overtime on my pay off slips and in 14 months and 25 days I did 25 hours at 9/1d per hour and 33 hours at 55p an hour.
Cheers
Kris

caseman
16th April 2009, 12:37
Some very interesting notes from the past. It seems as though Saturdays at Sea finished shortly after I left in '61. Like Marconi Sahib, I have kept all my MiMco paperwork so will dig out some of my payslips which were thin and blue, but not unlike the buff ones as I recollect.
An interesting and provoking thought about Marconi Staff clerks. I used to hear some very interesting stories about how the back-handers worked!! Funny how some R/O's always got the good ships and others were given the dross. I always used to get good treatment in Newcastle but nothing but rubbish from East Ham. It became a point of great interest as to which UK port one was going to dock at where leave was involved.
In passing, I note a couple of you guys use the word 'Malim' in your titles. When I first joined BI we were given a book called 'The Malim Sahib's Hindustani'. Suppose that is where it came from. Would be interested to hear the story.

Regards
David/G4CMQ

trotterdotpom
16th April 2009, 12:41
Kris, that "Account of Wages" is a pay off slip for ship's staff who were paid on board. Marconi ROs would have just had 12 pounds per month (or whatever the nominated amount of money in the ship was) entered on the form.

With SSM I used to do the wages and the pay off slips were made up and distributed the day before pay off. This allowed time for them to be checked by the recipient and any complaints rectified. One trip the Chief Cook, who'd done very well with a fair bit of overtime, came up with a beef about a few quid that hadn't been paid. He was right and I corrected the mistake, but I also noticed that I'd neglected to deduct tax from his pay off. When this adjustment was made his pay off, while still substantial, wasn't nearly as attractive. Glad I wasn't eating on board that night!

John T.

andysk
16th April 2009, 13:09
..... In passing, I note a couple of you guys use the word 'Malim' in your titles. When I first joined BI we were given a book called 'The Malim Sahib's Hindustani'. Suppose that is where it came from. Would be interested to hear the story. .....

David, this book is still available from Brown Son & Ferguson, Glasgow, at GBP 9.95 (+p&p), see :

https://www.skipper.co.uk/BookStore/showpage.aspx?book=208

May possibly bring back a few memories !

With regard to the original theme, I never got paid separately for any overtime. Hours in excess to the 8 per day were just worked as required, I suppose the benefit being time off in port.

Cheers

Andy

K urgess
16th April 2009, 14:50
After we signed on as supernumeries at 5p a month, JT, I never got a pay-off slip. I'm not sure but I think this goes hand in hand with foreign going running agreements. Pay off slips seem to go with end of or change in, articles.
All my pay-off slips show the amount I was signed on at, from 12 quid a month on five early trips, 24 quid a month for another 7, to a couple at thirtysix quid just before the 5p bit came in.
Under the 5p signing on everything was paid for by cheque before signing off.
Just to clarify the overtime thing. The hours entered on my paying off slips had nothing at all to do with Marconi. It was payment for hours worked outside my duties as RO and paid by the shipping company. On one trip down to South America with PSNC I got paid for 60 hours of overtime at 6 shillings and sixpence per hour. That was on a trip of 2 months 7 days. Slightly more than the 58 hours in 14 months on a Bankboat.
Sometimes it just boiled down to half a dozen beers from the second or third mate for a couple of hours relief cargo watch so they could get ashore. It was either that or getting their shopping for them.
Having worked out to the penny how much I had in the ship each day so I could calculate what sort of sub to get where, I did the same for my Marconi salary on my first trip so that I knew how much I could get from the local MIMCo depot as a sub. So I have a note that says on 5th January 1967 I had been on articles for 6 months and so completed my period on minimum pay of £54-15-0d per month and would now be getting £61-15-0d per month salary.
The overtime I got paid as REO was completely different and took ages for Marconi to get around the paying it.
I don't remember getting payslips from Marconi's. I always handed in my paybook and it all went in there. Together with the little buff subs book in the back with pink pages that recorded all the subs in foreign ports from RAMAC agents.
Cheers
Kris

andysk
16th April 2009, 14:59
That all sounds horrendously bureaucratic Kris, makes me glad I was D/E, and only had the Marconi or IMRC radio traffic accounts to deal with!

K urgess
16th April 2009, 15:34
It was easy, Andy.
Because we weren't shipping company employees Marconi had to guarantee the money we could draw in the ship per month. It was just for the usual "overheads" like cigs, booze and subs. It was easy for the Old Man 'cos he didn't even have to work out NI and tax.
Before the days of everyone having a chequing account or credit cards. Don't think I even thought about getting a cheque book until 1970ish.
Kris

Klaatu83
16th April 2009, 17:02
On land (at least in civilized countries) workers are entitled to overtime if they are called upon to work more than eight hours a day, or forty hours a week. I have never understood this notion that, because people happen to work on ships, they shouldn't be entitled to the same consideration. Yet all my life landsmen have insisted that we seamen were overpaid because we were compensated for all the extra hours we had to put in on the job.

James_C
16th April 2009, 17:46
our titles. When I first joined BI we were given a book called 'The Malim Sahib's Hindustani'. Suppose that is where it came from. Would be interested to hear the story.

Regards
David/G4CMQ

David,
As has been mentioned, the book is still in print and I still have a copy lying around the house somewhere. Here's something to jog your memory from my notes:

Captain - Captain sahib
C/O - Burra malim sahib
2/O - Majla Malim sahib
3/O - Sajla Malim sahib
4/O or other Junior - Chota malim sahib
Cadet/Apprentice - Chota sahib or cadet sahib
C/E - Burra mistri sahib
2/E - Majla mistri sahib
3/E - Tin number mistri sahib
4/E - Char number mistri sahib
5/E - Panch number mistri sahib
Purser - Pursa Sahib
Clerk - Kuranni sahib
Doctor - Doctor sahib
R/O - Marconi sahib
Gunner - As in English
Chief Steward (European) - as in English
Chief Steward (native) - Butla
Cook (for Europeans) - Bawachi
Cook (for natives) - Bandari
Captains Servant - Captain sahib ka noka
Saloon servant - Salum ka noka
Native Stewards - Noka (sing), Noka log (collective)
Butlers Writer and Assistant - Munshi
Bosun - Deck Serang
Bosuns Mate - Burra Tindal
Carpenter - Mistri
Quartermaster - Sukunni
Lamp Trimmer and Store Keeper - Cassab
Lascar Sailors - Kalassi (singular), Kalassi Log (collective)
Fireman Serang - Ag walla serang
1st Fireman serangs mate - Ag walla burra tindal
2nd Fireman serangs mate - Ag walla chota tindal
Greaser - Tal Walla
Donkeyman - Donki walla
Storekeeper (engine room) - Engine room cassab
Lampman (engine room) - Batti walla
Lascar Firemen - Ag walla (sing), Ag walla log (collective)
Boy - Chokra

caseman
16th April 2009, 22:51
Acha Jim. Many thanks.

Regards
David/G4CMQ

Tai Pan
17th April 2009, 14:49
Overtime, never heard of such things, crew yes but Officers, never, in my time with Holts i had more leave than I ever earned, always on full pay. cumshaw, now thats different.

R651400
17th April 2009, 15:09
Was NEVER once asked to help with cargo checking or any other chore whilst in port, and if I had been I would have refused, simple as that. .
If I was working for a pocket money per month radio company I would have refused also.
Find your pay scales circa 53 slightly awry and then to jump to mega (canadian) bucks in the same era??

ernhelenbarrett
18th April 2009, 06:21
In 1954 my pay from Marconi was 23 quid per month, no overtime at all and if you didnt have your paybook no cash at all. My paybook number was 1744 and had to be quoted at all times, also remember you could draw 5 quid in Australian pounds per month at most AWA offices in Oz-land.I also got all the lousy jobs when attached to East Ham Depot, seem to remember the bus fare Marconi gave us from East Ham to KG5 Dock was 5-1/2 pence and you had to lug all your kit onto the bus in case you were away for the full 2 year Articles. First time I got overtime was when I joined AWA and never claimed it as didnt know what O/T was until another R/O put me wise.
Ern Barrett

charles henry
18th April 2009, 15:55
If I was working for a pocket money per month radio company I would have refused also.
Find your pay scales circa 53 slightly awry and then to jump to mega (canadian) bucks in the same era??

The Mimco pay is to the best of my memory.

Not only a big jump in salary but also in shipping company "attitudes". With Mimco on the Cape Hawke one night the PPI caught fire. I rebuilt and rewired the whole thing, looked like hell but worked. Back in Glasgow the old man asked me into his cabin to meet the company "super", he explained what I had done and suggested a bonus payment would be suitable, the answer was, "Come on, if he did it at sea it couldnt have been that big a job and in anycase thats what we pay Marconi for.

In the Canadian Cheticamp they had an ANCIENT beast of a radar that had a two year history. Montreal, marconi reps would get it working, a week at sea it would fail, this routine had been going on for two years.

I diagnosed a bad magnet, it checked out as such and a replacement was bought at a very heavy price. The problem stayed "fixed" and two months later I received a raise from $300 to $350 per month. That confirmed my decision to stay away from the UK. de chas

(Pint)

R651400
18th April 2009, 17:28
Thanks for above.
£23 pm GTZM to $350 Canadian circa 1953?
How does this compare with the pay scales of Saguenay Terminals at the same time?

Nick Balls
18th April 2009, 18:08
We were never overpaid!!!!!!
These days many are doing an 84hr week at sea and while leave has greatly increased this in no way compensates. Recent studies have shown that particularly with shift work there are serious long term health concerns doing these type of hours .
Also things like the MNOPF have in effect disappeared(Closed fund) the retirement age being now up to 61.

charles henry
19th April 2009, 15:34
Thanks for above.
£23 pm GTZM to $350 Canadian circa 1953?
How does this compare with the pay scales of Saguenay Terminals at the same time?

My old school chum Peter Prance was with Saguenay at that time, dont know if the amounts were exact but definately $300 or higher.
de chas

R651400
19th April 2009, 16:18
Thanks Chas. A princely sum for the fifties. Saguenay was the only Canadian flag that I remember on the freelance circuit in my time.

andysk
20th April 2009, 16:21
.... R/O - Marconi sahib ....

and

Electrician - Batty sahib (in Clan line at any rate !)

Cheers

Andy

Moulder
20th April 2009, 17:21
and

Electrician - Batty sahib (in Clan line at any rate !)

Cheers

Andy

2nd Electrician - Batty Boy ????

(Thumb)

andysk
21st April 2009, 13:01
3rd electrician - battered !

Shipbuilder
21st April 2009, 19:23
By the time I reached the WINDSOR CASTLE in 1966 (as 4th R/ O after five years at sea with AEI) The saturday claim had gone, but I remember that in SA ports on Sunday mornings, the chief would come and wake me at 0900 and ask if I wished to spend the morning on "maintenance" for extra leave. I always declined and slept on, safe in the knowledge that I was perfectly happy aboard WINDSOR CASTLE and I needed my sleep more than a bit of extra leave. At the end of the voyage, the Staff Commander came in and demanded of the chief why the 4th R/O had no "Sunday working" claim whilst the chief, 2nd & 3rd did. After being told that I had declined it (idle little B that I was) the Staff Commander bellowed that he didn't believe it and put me down for the full amount. So in the end, I got my Sundays and my sleep as well!

Hardest bit of overtime I ever had was aboard BANDAMA (Silver Line) in the late 1970s.

We had just completed loading logs in Abidjan (4 weeks) and arrived in San Pedro for a further two weeks topping up with logs on deck and filling number one with bagged coffee beans. The captain asked the junior R/O & I if we would like to volunteer to oversee the stowage, working six hours on, six hours off for a cash payment. We agreed to this and for two weeks, it was 6 on, 6 off down below in the stifling heat of Nr. 1, whilst the 2nd & 3rd mates did 6 on, 6 off on deck watching the logs (C/O on daywork, supervising). We were like zombies at the end of it. 2/O & 3/O got $50 each for their labour, whilst myself & jnr got $25 each! When the coffee was discharged in Marseilles, it was commented that it was in perfect condition. Every bag was correctly isolated from the steel by bamboo matting and the the ventilation channels were all "first class!"

Got a lot of job satisfaction, but never volunteered again!

Bob

Macphail
21st April 2009, 20:28
Bank Line in the 1960's.

Signed on "B" Articles, you relied on the off watch overtime to complement the wages, as a 3rd engineer, the 2nd authorised and the Chief Engineer signed the overtime book. Had a nasty piece of work as 2nd, " no name no pack drill", he stated that all work was done on watch and no overtime.

Bypassed dick head with the overtime book, Chief Engineer signed, happy pay off, dick head went into a serious rant.

John

Binnacle
21st April 2009, 21:17
When I sailed as third mate (B Articles) if I spent my afternoon off watch checking lifeboat gear, lifebuoys etc and fire extinguishers I was paid no overtime as it was classed as Safety Equipment. Sailing as second mate, (B Articles) correcting charts, servicing the gyro in my watch below was classed as navigational duties and no overtime entitlement.. After spending two hours in the gyro room servicing a Brown’s gyro, renewing mercury etc I met the third engineer who told me he had just clocked up two hours OT fixing (renewing a fuse) the electric heater in the old man’s bedroom. Happy days.

Vital Sparks
23rd April 2009, 17:31
During my time with BP, officers were paid a consolidated salary and there were no overtime payments. While considering their re-introduction the company conducted a survey in which certain officers were required to record actual hours worked which was reported weekly. When they saw the actual figures the idea was dropped like a hot brick.

EimbTrader
2nd May 2009, 19:04
Fully agreed on that, om, all these simple things were part of our duty and our responsibilitys!

Moulder
3rd May 2009, 09:23
During my time with BP, officers were paid a consolidated salary and there were no overtime payments. While considering their re-introduction the company conducted a survey in which certain officers were required to record actual hours worked which was reported weekly. When they saw the actual figures the idea was dropped like a hot brick.

Hmm interesting - makes one wonder whether the original idea to consolidate the payments was actually beneficial to officers after all.

(Thumb)

trotterdotpom
4th May 2009, 03:35
I've never heard of a "consolidated salary" (afloat or ashore) that wasn't inferior to payment of overtime and other benefits. If they were, the employers wouldn't be so keen to introduce them - not too hard to work that one out. Another furphy is 12 hour shifts, sugar coated by supposed extra days off. The real reason is that any operation running 12 hour shifts needs less staff - come in suckers!

John T.

Naytikos
6th May 2009, 06:02
I seriously wonder why anyone stayed with the radio companies at all. After getting my ticket I did one trip on a Grimsby trawler and then joined Marconi's to earn a princely 'consolidated basic' which worked out as less per week than I had earned in a restaurant kitchen during the Summers. Then tax was deducted as well! I remember an ROU rep in the East Ham depot waiting room, who was trying to persuade me to join, mumbling an incomprehensible answer when I asked what the pay should be without the 'consolidation'. Needless to say, he got short shrift. Others have also mentioned the clerks (too dignified a job-title) who had to have been employed especially for their lack of public relations skills.
It took me less than two years to see the light and when I joined Niarchos my salary tripled, there were no UK deductions and the company office personnel treated me as a valued 'member of the family' from day one.
I got paid expenses and stand-by money just for showing up at the office.
There was no overtime payment, but I happily worked whenever and at whatever was needed: they treated me well, so I reciprocated!

Jim Moon
17th May 2009, 20:12
Used to get "Weekend Work in Port" (WeWips), minimum claim was half a day if I remember correctly.

Second mate put me onto it when he was doing the chart corrections and the Old Man (Geoff Savage, God Bless him!), said for me to claim for updating the radio books, that used to arrive with the chart corrections - blunt scissors and glue sticks?

Also did cargo watch for loading/discharging and once got paid extra for sailing with only one Eleccy and me helping the Eleccy - The Chief wrote good appraisal letter to Head Office (P&O GCD) and at end of six month trip I received and additional three months salary......happy times!

Cap'n Pete
18th May 2009, 20:56
I'm very pleased my officers are not paid overtime; filling in overtime forms takes time, something my officers do not have.