Captain, Master, Owner?

CEYLON220
23rd April 2009, 10:49
I`ve come across this description on a few occasionas where ships Captains in both the MN and RFAs have signed themselves off as Master,Skipper or Owner, yet in the Senior Service(had to slip that one in!!) the Lt, Lt.Commander up to a four ring Captain who are in charge of a Naval Base, ship/submarine are all classes as Captains, then why does a MN four ringer not sign himself as Captain when he has earned the title?
Must add this to the reference of RN Lt, Lt Cmd before someone pulls me up, they are addressed by their rank ie:Lt or Commander by other senior ranks.


Dave.

Steve Woodward
23rd April 2009, 11:08
I'm sure some do Dave - and some keep it to themselves, depends on the ego maybe ?

chadburn
23rd April 2009, 11:32
As seen on another Forum where member's (quite rightly and proudly I might add) have shown their "M.N. Tickets" they are down as Master Mariner's, hence the term Ship's Master. The term Master Mariner sounds (to me anyway) much more impressive. In my time in the M.N. I can't ever remember calling the Master a Captain it was either Master , Skipper or the "Old Man". The R.N. is as you know is a different kettle of fish when it comes the Command structure and actual Rank.

Chris Isaac
23rd April 2009, 12:17
Most of us here would far rather refer to ourselves as retired or ex or current ship's masters.
Don't know why but I have never used the title "Captain" even though some do.
I am proud to be a Master Mariner (lapsed).
I am also proud to be a certified Able Seaman.

Peter4447
23rd April 2009, 20:03
I was reading recently that the titles Captain and Master began life with two separate people. It appears that back in the middle ages ships were built with castles fore and aft. In peacetime the ships traded as merchant vessels but in time of war soldiers were embarked who fought the vessels from the castles. The man responsible for the soldiers was the Captain and the man responsible for the ship and its navigation was the Master. Over the years the titles became merged.
Peter4447(Thumb)

Lancastrian
23rd April 2009, 20:38
Your reference to Owner probably refers to the current practice in the RFA where not only the Commanding Officer but all senior officers and CPOs are appointed for several years being relieved for periods of leave before returning. So they are known as the Owner CO, CEO, CPO Cook etc of that ship. As opposed to the previous practice, common in the MN, of a whole new crew every few months which was not good for continuity. There is a difference between a Rank and an appointment title. In the RFA, Captain Bloggs was The Master until the system was changed by a Defence Council Instruction in 1992. At the same time, Mr Smith, The Chief Engineer Officer, became Captain (E) Smith, and every ship has at least two Chief Officers. (Executive, Marine Engineering, Supply, Systems Engineering). The last two may be First or Second Officers on smaller ships.
I only use my rank when writing to bank managers!

James_C
23rd April 2009, 20:48
Lancastrian,
We had much the same system in BP where the Senior Officers were attached to a ship 'back to back' for a period of circa 2 years before moving on.
In my present outfit we have in practice the same system, however that's down to our seatime/leave ratio being 1:1 as opposed to company intention. However it does make life a lot easier with regards to continuity, more so if both yourself and your back to back are 'singing from the same hymn sheet', not to mention it makes the life of an Appointer simpler!

spongebob
23rd April 2009, 21:16
Our master explorer, the man most responsible for the colonisation of Australia and New Zealand, Captain James Cook, was a Lieutenant at the time.

Bob

Lancastrian
23rd April 2009, 21:20
Our master explorer, the man most responsible for the colonisation of Australia and New Zealand, Captain James Cook, was a Lieutenant at the time.

Bob

As was the much maligned Captain Bligh of the Bounty.

CEYLON220
24th April 2009, 00:35
Right lads I`m not finished with you yet, when a Master, Skipper,Captain obtains his certificate no doubt he will be judged on his experience of ship handling,navigation,and seamanships before the board grants him the said certificate, does this mean that he can skipper a ship of any size or is it like the truckers certificate ie: class 3 for 4 wheelers, class 2 for 6 & 8 wheelers and class 1 for the larger articulated vehicles---(not being too technical here am I!!!!!!) or does the certificate stand for all classes of ships. I think that I would prefer the title of Skipper, more friendly like.

Dave

Lancastrian
24th April 2009, 07:43
Skippers are for yachts, submarines, fishing boats and tugs!
The Master Mariner's Certificate used to be issued as either Home Trade or Foreign Going and then endorsements for dangerous cargoes were brought in together with revalidation for "continued proficiency". The size of ship was not limited for FG. I'm not sure about HT.
They are now governed by international standards called STCW about which someone else will have to answer.

Bill Davies
24th April 2009, 07:50
Right lads I`m not finished with you yet, when a Master, Skipper,Captain obtains his certificate no doubt he will be judged on his experience of ship handling,navigation,and seamanships before the board grants him the said certificate, does this mean that he can skipper a ship of any size or is it like the truckers certificate ie: class 3 for 4 wheelers, class 2 for 6 & 8 wheelers and class 1 for the larger articulated vehicles---(not being too technical here am I!!!!!!) or does the certificate stand for all classes of ships. I think that I would prefer the title of Skipper, more friendly like.

Dave

The highlighted is sufficient for me not to take you seriously!

Chris Isaac
24th April 2009, 08:59
The highlighted is sufficient for me not to take you seriously!

A little harsh I feel.

A Foreign Going Master's certificate entitles the holder to fulfill the duties of Master of any foreign going power driven vessel regardless of type or size.
The examination satisfies the government that the holder has all the relavent knowledge of the aspects you describe. Experience comes with time. A ship owner will generally not appoint someone as master for many years after the gaining of the certificate.

In my own experience my Master's ticket got me up to Senior Second Officer on passenger ships. Thereafter it was "dead man's shoes" as you waited for advancement. In that time experience was gained.

Bill Davies
24th April 2009, 09:23
Harsh? I don't think so.
As for your own post. I have said on many occasions that I feel genuine sympathy for people like yourself who had a dream and believed in the company you served with only to have your aspirations dashed.


Bill

CEYLON220
24th April 2009, 10:05
The highlighted is sufficient for me not to take you seriously!

I agree with Chris here Bill , I think your remark was harsh, I was only putting a bit of light humour into the subject but apparently some of us cannot take a joke , must be more careful in future, RN Captains who obtain their 4th ring can command any size of ship depending on their seniority, Lts, Lt.Cdr usually take command of the smaller class ie Frigates,Destroyers and Submarines so that is why I tried making a point with HGV classes(Heavy Goods Vehicles), by the way, I was only a humble Chief Petty Officer when serving 20 years in the RN and was only interested in how the other half functioned, I was`nt intending to start WW3 between shipmates on this site, as I`ve said before "Life is too short,enjoy what is left of it". (Thumb)

Regards,
Dave

CEYLON220
24th April 2009, 10:16
A little harsh I feel.

A Foreign Going Master's certificate entitles the holder to fulfill the duties of Master of any foreign going power driven vessel regardless of type or size.
The examination satisfies the government that the holder has all the relavent knowledge of the aspects you describe. Experience comes with time. A ship owner will generally not appoint someone as master for many years after the gaining of the certificate.

In my own experience my Master's ticket got me up to Senior Second Officer on passenger ships. Thereafter it was "dead man's shoes" as you waited for advancement. In that time experience was gained.

Thanks Chris, I think you have answered my question,I thought once you had the certificate you were in a position to command any size of ship but it seems like you keep on learning the job before companies think that you have the ability to take over one of their ships, must be hard having to take a 2nd officers job when you know you have the capabilities to take command of the ship,but thats life I suppose in most jobs.

Dave.

Bill Davies
24th April 2009, 10:30
I agree with Chris here Bill , I think your remark was harsh, I was only putting a bit of light humour into the subject but apparently some of us cannot take a joke , must be more careful in future, RN Captains who obtain their 4th ring can command any size of ship depending on their seniority, Lts, Lt.Cdr usually take command of the smaller class ie Frigates,Destroyers and Submarines so that is why I tried making a point with HGV classes(Heavy Goods Vehicles), by the way, I was only a humble Chief Petty Officer when serving 20 years in the RN and was only interested in how the other half functioned, I was`nt intending to start WW3 between shipmates on this site, as I`ve said before "Life is too short,enjoy what is left of it". (Thumb)

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

Nothing to do taking a joke. I think your post was riddled with inaccuracies and therefore I did not take it seriously. If I would have known you were RN, then I would have made allowances.

Brgds

Bill

jmcg
24th April 2009, 11:10
Captain, Master ,Owner?

In late 80's a frequent visitor to Tranmere Oil Terminal (Shell) were two Helsinki registered tankers. They were elderly vessels, but immaculately maintained and presented. One was called PEGGY and the other BONNY. They were part (some say 90%) owned by the Master who alternated his command between the two. His wife was also a part owner and also commanded either.

There was no class distinction there - one would be hard pressed to identify the old man (or lady) and each set about a multitude of tasks without a second thought. I do recall seeing the "old lady" on the bridge mop in hand and a bundle of rags for the brass.

What was I doing? We had just finished renewing the d/c hose on a adjacent topped boom - not a job for the faint hearted - and could observe all the activity on board.

BW

J

R651400
24th April 2009, 11:20
Harsh? I don't think so.
As for your own post. I have said on many occasions that I feel genuine sympathy for people like yourself who had a dream and believed in the company you served with only to have your aspirations dashed.
There were as this poster suggests a gaggle (excuse the expression) of lower-deck navigation entrants (FG) in Blue Funnel whose aspirations were also dashed.

Binnacle
24th April 2009, 11:35
A Foreign Going Master's certificate entitles the holder to fulfill the duties of Master of any foreign going power driven vessel regardless of type or size.
The examination satisfies the government that the holder has all the relavent knowledge of the aspects you describe.

When I was issued with a FG Master's Certificate I could take the Queen Mary to Timbuctoo but I couldn't take a British registered fishing vessel beyond the pier heads. Not possessing a fishing ticket I was unqualified.

K urgess
24th April 2009, 12:08
Gents, when you quote part of another member's post don't forget to keep the [/quote] on the tail end of the quote or there's no demarcation between yours and theirs except for italics.
Same goes at the beginning. Make sure all the square brackets are present but at the beginning the / shouldn't be there.

Cheers
Kris

AncientBrit
24th April 2009, 13:27
Dave,

Nothing to do taking a joke. I think your post was riddled with inaccuracies and therefore I did not take it seriously. If I would have known you were RN, then I would have made allowances.

Brgds

Bill

It matters not what megalithic omnipotence one thinks ones seniority or rank allows, there is no earthly reason for such ignorant arrogance in answer to a reasonable question. I hope the RN members will make allowances and realise that you do not represent the manners and courtesy of all MN members of whatever ranking.
Regards
Bob

K urgess
24th April 2009, 13:35
Let's have no arguments please, Gents.
This isn't stormy weather.
Heated discussion without entering into personal remarks is all that is allowed.
This is not directed to anyone in particular but to ALL participants in this thread.

Bill Davies
24th April 2009, 14:09
Captain, Master ,Owner?

In late 80's a frequent visitor to Tranmere Oil Terminal (Shell) were two Helsinki registered tankers. They were elderly vessels, but immaculately maintained and presented. One was called PEGGY and the other BONNY. They were part (some say 90%) owned by the Master who alternated his command between the two. His wife was also a part owner and also commanded either.

There was no class distinction there - one would be hard pressed to identify the old man (or lady) and each set about a multitude of tasks without a second thought. I do recall seeing the "old lady" on the bridge mop in hand and a bundle of rags for the brass.

What was I doing? We had just finished renewing the d/c hose on a adjacent topped boom - not a job for the faint hearted - and could observe all the activity on board.

BW

J

My first meeting I had with Dan Ludwig was on one of the Bulk Class. Being an early riser, he busied himself cleaning off the work tops in the mess prior to the morning meeting.

Bill

jmcg
24th April 2009, 14:17
A leader by example no doubt.

BW

J

Bill Davies
24th April 2009, 15:51
John,

I have always felt privileged to have sailed for him.

Thanks & Brgds

Bill

R651400
24th April 2009, 17:37
The title of this thread would be commonplace in the days of sail and it is heartening to see at least one ex Blue Funnel Master had the guts to follow through to ownership.
By the same token single ship ownership in Greece is far from uncommon.
Back in the sixties somewhere on the Brasilian coast I enjoyed the excellent hospitality aboard a Greek flag liberty owned jointly between the Captain and Chief Engineer.

Klaatu83
24th April 2009, 20:07
I spent five years in M.S.C. (the U.S. equivalent of the R.F.A.), where deck officers were licensed, not commissioned. The commanding officer might be referred to as "The Captain", but his official title was "The Master" and the sign on his office said "Master's Office". The reason was because that was how it was worded on his license: "Master of Steam and Motor Vessels of Unlimited Gross Tons Upon Oceans". We usually referred to him as "The Old Man", regardless of his age, but he was absolutely NEVER called "Skipper". I do recall one Regular Navy Ensign, part of a Naval Oceanographic Unit, who used to address the Old Man as "Master", much to everybody's amusement!

sidsal
24th April 2009, 20:09
I insist on being addressed by my rank - only fair after all.
Owing to developing TB ( since cured) and meeting my future wife I was a few months short of seatime for Master. Therfore I have a 1st Mates ticket and insist on being adressed as " Mate".
I have been greeted for instance as - "Ow bin yer mate ?" when I worked in Shropshire or "Ere mate, grab this, when sailing in yachts".
Don't forget now !!

Bill Davies
24th April 2009, 20:18
IWe usually referred to him as "The Old Man", regardless of his age, but he was absolutely NEVER called "Skipper".

That's about right!

Ron Stringer
24th April 2009, 22:05
When I was issued with a FG Master's Certificate I could take the Queen Mary to Timbuctoo

Mighty as were the powers of the Board of Trade, even that august body of men could not provide you with the means (as opposed to the authority) that would enable you or anyone else to take a large seagoing vessel to Timbuctu, some 1,000 miles from the sea. (But don't tell them I told you, they were indeed very powerful and I wouldn't want to get in their bad books).(Jester)

CEYLON220
25th April 2009, 09:31
It matters not what megalithic omnipotence one thinks ones seniority or rank allows, there is no earthly reason for such ignorant arrogance in answer to a reasonable question. I hope the RN members will make allowances and realise that you do not represent the manners and courtesy of all MN members of whatever ranking.
Regards
Bob

Bob, I was only interested in the way the MN-RFA addressed their officers compared to the Navy`s way, I did`nt intend starting a war on the subject, but whatever the subject you will always get an arguement, it did`nt matter whether I was RN or MN,the question that I put forward was nothing to do with RN as Bill Davies would have realised if he had read the post correctly,I being ex RN know how Navy Captains are addressed etc.
Thanks to all who for their imput on this question and their support, HGV certs were just a comparison to how they operate, I could have gone for pilots licences where when given your licence to pilot a plane this does not mean that you are entitled to fly the Jumbo jet ---get my meaning Bill

Regards to all,
Dave.

Binnacle
25th April 2009, 09:53
Mighty as were the powers of the Board of Trade, even that august body of men could not provide you with the means (as opposed to the authority) that would enable you or anyone else to take a large seagoing vessel to Timbuctu, some 1,000 miles from the sea. (But don't tell them I told you, they were indeed very powerful and I wouldn't want to get in their bad books).(Jester)

Ron, on reflection my choice of destination was rather unwise, however I was aware of the location of Timbuctoo, having when on a Bisco charter to Monrovia/Takoradi, received a cargo instruction sourced from Timbuctoo. I must admit it had us all guessing, including a wise old master. I used it more as a form of expression i.e. go to Timbuctoo, could be used to avoid the moderators alert light flashing when replying to a perhaps unhoused trained SN member..
Regards.

Ron Stringer
25th April 2009, 10:10
I was only joking (or making a feeble attempt to do so) although I sailed with one or two Master's who believed that they had been given the power (both by birth and the BOT) to do anything or go anywhere they chose. Now had you selected a somewhat smaller vessel, you might have undertaken a trip to the outskirts of Timbuktu via the nearby River Niger. I understand, however, that is not the preferred mode of travel for most visitors.

slick
25th April 2009, 12:49
All,
Re. Timbucktou, odd you should mention the place, I believe it is the resting place of two British Seamen who perished at the hands of the Vichy French, can this be confirmed?
Yours aye,
Slick

Hugh MacLean
25th April 2009, 13:19
All,
Re. Timbucktou, odd you should mention the place, I believe it is the resting place of two British Seamen who perished at the hands of the Vichy French, can this be confirmed?
Yours aye,
Slick

Slick,

Merchant Navy graves in Timbuktu
Chief Engineer William Soutter (died 28 May 1942 age 60) and AB John Turnbull Graham (died 2 May 1942 age 23), both of the ss ALLENDE (Cardiff). ALLENDE was sunk 17th March 1942 off the South coast of West Africa, by U68. Same sub torpedoed my late father's ship in November of that year.

Regards

Ron Stringer
25th April 2009, 14:02
The epic journey made by those prisoners of war was described in earlier postings on the SN site but I can no longer find it. Was probably a couple of years ago, but my memory tends to be a little transient these days.

K urgess
25th April 2009, 15:12
Mentioned in the Ropner's thread here -
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=4280
Post #43 et al.
Cheers
Kris (Thumb)

chadburn
25th April 2009, 20:58
Alan Whicker put it very nicley on his programme the other night when he said "We are all DEMOTED upon Retirement". Some Foreign Masters I sailed with loved been called Skipper as they thought it was very British and were not offended at all.

AncientBrit
25th April 2009, 22:07
In the military I recall that one went up a rank when one retired. Mayhap they have changed that now.

CEYLON220
26th April 2009, 10:44
Captains of the coaster that we get up here in the west coast ports are always addressed by "Skipper" by the port authorities, never heard one being addressed by Captain, maybe they are addressed differantly by the ships crew.

Dave

CEYLON220
26th April 2009, 10:54
In the military I recall that one went up a rank when one retired. Mayhap they have changed that now.

You served in the RN during the 50s and 60s you will no doubt remember the Royal Yacht BRITTANIA, if a rating, both senior and junior volunteered for service aboard her if his rate was a CPO then he had to forfeit that rate and revert back to Petty Officer, I think the same applied to Officers as well but I could be wrong on that.

Dave

RayJordandpo
26th April 2009, 11:17
When I was issued with a FG Master's Certificate I could take the Queen Mary to Timbuctoo but I couldn't take a British registered fishing vessel beyond the pier heads. Not possessing a fishing ticket I was unqualified.

Interesting
I have heard this before, proudly boasted by deep sea trawler skippers but what exactly is the definition of a fishing vessel?. What sylabus does a fishing ticket contain that a merchant navy ticket doesn't? Appart from navigation, chartwork, signals etc. I assume different methods of fishing are included as is cargo work in MN certificates. Hypothetically speaking, does it mean if you stuck a set of gallasts on the Queen Mary a trawler skipper could command her but the QM master couldn't take a trawler to sea?

Pat Kennedy
26th April 2009, 11:59
The title of this thread would be commonplace in the days of sail and it is heartening to see at least one ex Blue Funnel Master had the guts to follow through to ownership.
By the same token single ship ownership in Greece is far from uncommon.
Back in the sixties somewhere on the Brasilian coast I enjoyed the excellent hospitality aboard a Greek flag liberty owned jointly between the Captain and Chief Engineer..

I am curious about the ex Blue Funnel Master who became a shipowner. Who is he, and what ships does he own?
Regards,
Pat

R651400
26th April 2009, 13:39
.
I am curious about the ex Blue Funnel Master who became a shipowner. Who is he, and what ships does he own?
In response to your nebulosity does this a ring a bell?
Highlighted quotes are from the defunct thread "Blue Funnel Reborn."
Quote
He was asked to value a small container feeder ship recently renamed "Priam", owned by an Australian company, Ocean Shipping Pty. Ltd. It turns out that this company is run by a former Blue Funnel master, Capt. Denis Gallagher.
Unquote

K urgess
26th April 2009, 15:32
This is not stormy weather R651400 so I am allowed to warn you that the sort of comment I have deleted from the last sentence of your post is not allowed.

R651400
26th April 2009, 16:27
This is not stormy weather R651400 so I am allowed to warn you that the sort of comment I have deleted from the last sentence of your post is not allowed.By all means GTZM-S you're the moderator. Decision accepted 73 de M

K urgess
26th April 2009, 19:24
Again a warning I shouldn't need to give.
The last two posts have gone.

R651400
26th April 2009, 20:13
.I am curious about the ex Blue Funnel Master who became a shipowner. Who is he, and what ships does he own?Regards,
PatPat it looks like yrlast was blown away in my backdraft before I could reply. Thanks for same. Getting things back on course...
It would be interesting if such a master mariner irrespective of company actually existed and what type of shipping he was involved with.
Looking at Glen (& Shire) Line, after Scottish glens and Welsh shires seems an ideal marriage in naming ones company ships. In fact they were once two separate companies and the owner of the Welsh Shire Line was master mariner, Captain David James Jenkins, English born but so passionately Welsh he insisted his ships were built in Wales. Could this be the origins of Blue Funnel being referred to as the Welsh Navy?.

Binnacle
26th April 2009, 21:19
Interesting
I have heard this before, proudly boasted by deep sea trawler skippers but what exactly is the definition of a fishing vessel?. What sylabus does a fishing ticket contain that a merchant navy ticket doesn't? Appart from navigation, chartwork, signals etc. I assume different methods of fishing are included as is cargo work in MN certificates. Hypothetically speaking, does it mean if you stuck a set of gallasts on the Queen Mary a trawler skipper could command her but the QM master couldn't take a trawler to sea?

The short answer is all vessels registered as fishing vessels must have the registration letter/no. displayed on the hull. Don't have access to my books so can't help with exam syllabus details. Never noticed any smell of fish in the examination room though, so presume they were not questioned about fish species identification. When up for a ticket, during the chartwork exam a fellow sitting for a fishing ticket was among the happy band. We were quite surprised when he requested the examiner to point out a position on the chart mentioned in his exam paper which he was unable to locate. The examiner gladly obliged. We would all have been afraid of getting six months sea time if we had dared show our lack of chart skill. I heard about one Aberdeen ex trawl skipper who joined a rig stand by boat, sailed and returned three days later claiming he couldn't find the rig. (Told to me by an Aberdeen trawl skipper I would hastily add, and certainly untypical) In conclusion I would state that after I posted about the ticket limition I realised I had not stated that it was only applicable if the vessel was engaged in fishing activity. Regarding the Queen Mary if they had replaced the grand piano with a fish filleting machine, weeded out the uncertificated Cunard types, fitted the necessary trawl gear and painted SU1 on the hull, carefully placed a spare cod end in the commander's/skipper's bedroom so he could quickly feel at home, she could IMHO legally sail for the fishing grounds.

Pat Kennedy
27th April 2009, 07:59
Looking at Glen (& Shire) Line, after Scottish glens and Welsh shires seems an ideal marriage in naming ones company ships. In fact they were once two separate companies and the owner of the Welsh Shire Line was master mariner, Captain David James Jenkins, English born but so passionately Welsh he insisted his ships were built in Wales. Could this be the origins of Blue Funnel being referred to as the Welsh Navy?.

Well, I had always made the assumption that BF was called the Welsh Navy simply because every ship had its complement of men from Wales. I certainly never sailed on a Bluey without at least two or three on deck. On one ship, I was the solitary 'Non-Welsh deckhand, all the others came from Anglesey, and most of them from one village, Amlwch
Similarly, PSNC was once known as the Birkenhead Navy, when their ships loaded in that port and most of the crews lived there.
But to get back to the original enquiry, I did hear many years ago that a Merseyside based BF master, started his own ship owning business in a small way, but have forgotten the details.
regards,
Pat

RayJordandpo
27th April 2009, 09:10
Post #50
Nice one Binnacle, I like it

jmcg
27th April 2009, 19:49
#51

Pat
Protesilaus was the same. All Welsh on deck with one exception - me.

Not the best voyage. Although there was a heavy Welsh alliance the Irish were not exactly poorly represented in the China.

BW

J

CEYLON220
29th April 2009, 21:47
I began this forum a while back and I see that the forum has spilled over to the BRIDGE forum as well, we are certainly getting some good feed backs on the subject, not all are in agreement on the right titles given to these gentlemen of the sea, Apparently today they use the title "OWNER" for a ships Captain, in civvy life we call the owner "BOSS"----Life gets complicated!!!!

Dave

Bill Davies
29th April 2009, 22:00
#51

Pat
Protesilaus was the same. All Welsh on deck with one exception - me.

Not the best voyage. Although there was a heavy Welsh alliance the Irish were not exactly poorly represented in the China.

BW

J

And they were invariably from County Wicklow.

Bill

Bill Davies
29th April 2009, 22:15
Pat,
With respect to the Owners you asked about above. I understand one is named Gallagher and was 3rd Mate, possibly 2nd Mate in the BF. The other Liverpool based owner was BF but again never Master in the China. Details are scarce.
Brgds
Bill

Pat Kennedy
29th April 2009, 22:24
Pat,
With respect to the Owners you asked about above. I understand one is named Gallagher and was 3rd Mate, possibly 2nd Mate in the BF. The other Liverpool based owner was BF but again never Master in the China. Details are scarce.
Brgds
Bill

Bill,
Thanks for that.
I was told about this Merseyside owner a long time ago, possibly late seventies, and I believe that as well as BF, he had connections with Bibby's, but if I ever knew more, I'm afraid its gone.
Did you know a T+J Harrison's captain from Wallasey named Tony Billington? he is of our era, and was a marine super in Liverpool in the eighties.
regards,
Pat
Pat

Bill Davies
29th April 2009, 22:31
The name ring a bell!

Bill

Pat Kennedy
29th April 2009, 22:42
Bil,
He could always be found at lunchtime in the TS Landfall, which had become a floating restaurant and was moored somewhere around Bramley Moore. In the evenings, he was often found propping up the bar in the Saughall Massie hotel.
A good bloke was Tony.
Another convivial chap from those days was Denis Naylor the BF engineering super with special responsibility for fire and safety. His lunchtime haunt was the Oriel bar in town.
Pat