Insurance or Donation

peter drake
23rd April 2009, 16:18
At the risk of getting shot at. Has the RNLI had its day. Years ago there were hundreds of fishing vessels colliers coasters and other ships around our coastline. The crews of the RNLI saved many hundreds or seamens lives. Today if a ship is in trouble it is usually an RAF or RN chopper that goes out. I guess ( someone will no doubt correct me ) that it is normally yachts and pleasure craft that the RNLI look after. As owning a boat is not a cheap hobby most yachtsmen must have a bob or two and should be able to pay insurance to cover the cost of rescue. Should RNLI have to rely on donations from the rest of us or should insurance be compulsary for anyone going to sea in a small boat
Pete

ROBERT HENDERSON
23rd April 2009, 16:48
Peter
I cannot remember if it was earlir this year of last year when a timber ship sank in the English Channel and the lifeboat rescued most if not all the crew, so yes the lifeboat service is still greatly needed. As to your other question Yacht people should take out insurance, also hill climbers.

Regards Robert

Santos
23rd April 2009, 18:00
Peter,

All I can say is dont go near any RNLI station with your ' had its day ' views you will find yourself in deep water without a rescuer, I can promise you that.

The RNLI is needed more so than ever it was. There may be a drop in fishing boats etc, but there has been an explosion in pleasure craft and international Ferries and the number of people carried by both. There is also the hundreds of flights of helicopters to and from the oil and gas rigs to take into consideration which we all so tragically know can end in disaster or need help if ditched successfully. Also the mass of oil and gas industry supply ships and anchor handling ships, the Bourbon Dolphin tragically comes to mind.

With regard to the rescue helicopters being Coastguard and RN,there are also RAF ones too. All do magnificent service, flown and manned by very brave men and women, they go out too in all weathers but are more often than not, backed up by a lifeboat or two as well depending on the circumstances and the distances involved.

As for funding, yes, pleasure craft and yacht people should have breakdown insurance just like you have for a car and a percentage of the money from the insurance fees given to the RNLI to help their funding.

It makes me furious when I hear of people actually sending bills to the RNLI for alleged damage done to their boat whilst they were being rescued, oh yes they do and its quite prevelent too. Crews getting haranged, " mind the paintwork, dont use my ropes, use your own, " you wouldnt believe what some people are like, they should be made to pay, not take it all as if its their right to be rescued and the Lifeboat Crews are just lackies at their service. You never hear the crews complain though, because they are dedicated to the service they are in and dont forget they are volunteers, every one of them.

I am sorry and very angry to see this thread and the words " had its day " associated to the RNLI. (Cloud) I never thought I would ever see that on this site.

Make suggestions for funding yes, by all means, I for one would be very interested in that, thats whats needed, more so now that the recession is upon us and people are finding it difficult to support themselves never mind a charity, but dont say the RNLI has ' had its day '.

Chris. A very disgusted and disappointed member of the RNLI.

James_C
23rd April 2009, 18:13
Chris,
Where are the words 'played out' in Peters message? I can't see them.

Steve
23rd April 2009, 18:16
Chris where do you see the words "played out"...... I'm jiggered if I can ?

FWIW I think that the question is a valid one, and can't see Why it should not be on the site?

Santos
23rd April 2009, 18:44
Sorry, everyone, I could have sworn it was there, ( played out ) my apologies, but I am still annoyed at the 'Had its day ' inference. ( post will be ammended )

OK the question is valid, I agree, but I feel personally, that the RNLI is needed more than ever today with the explosion in leisure craft and off shore industries and that this should be obvious. We have never had a paid rescue service and never will. So the question really is rhetorical.



Chris.

peter drake
23rd April 2009, 19:02
Santos
I asked a Question! Has the RNLI had its day. In no way did I mean to run down the good work it does or the undoubted bravery of the crews. My opinion for what it is worth is that anyone putting to sea in a pleasure craft should carry enough insurance to fully cover the cost of rescue by RNLI RAF RN or whoever
Pete

nhp651
23rd April 2009, 19:07
I'm sorry but I think the post is FISHING for an argument of monumental proportions to follow it, and as such I will just ignore it and suggest that others who feel so strongly FOR the RNLI do the same.!

Santos
23rd April 2009, 19:58
Santos
I asked a Question! Has the RNLI had its day. In no way did I mean to run down the good work it does or the undoubted bravery of the crews. My opinion for what it is worth is that anyone putting to sea in a pleasure craft should carry enough insurance to fully cover the cost of rescue by RNLI RAF RN or whoever
Pete

Thanks Peter - my apologies for misquoting you - I wish that your opinion was indeed in force - when you think of the costs involved, but I am afraid that it will never come to fruition without a law being passed.

Chris.

ddraigmor
23rd April 2009, 20:05
As an ex crew member, what culd I add to this? Had its day....?

Without a doubt, no it has not! It also should never be allowed to become part of some Governmental plan: can you imagine how that would work? Number of rescues done? Oh I see - only fifty lives saved this year well, dearie me; there's non-productive....so we'll close you down

It is the best - without a doubt - organisation of its type in the world. t has been emulated worldwide and its expertise is sought after likewise. It is a voluntary organisation and whilst there are bopats on station there will be men and women who are willing to put heir life on the line for nothing. Not a penny - although crews can claim some money - it used to be 5 a service, I think; that no-one who served on the crew I was with did tells you how they feel about where the money shold go.

There are moves to 'consolidate' the UKSAR helo's - currently Bristows have the HMCG/MCA contract and carry out SAR work but also the RN and RAF crews also provide SAR coverage too. The principle is now for privitisation of the entire rotary wing SAR by two bidders under the SAR-H proposal. 2 companies (joint ventures) are applying for the role: AirKnight (whch is British International helicopters, Lockheed Martin UK and VT Group) and Soteria ( CHC, RBS and Thales UK).Their helo of choice is the EC335 and Sikorsky S-92. A third competitor - UK Air Rescue, which was made up of Augusta Westland, Bristows FB Heliserve and Serco pulled out of the deal.

SAR-H is a joint UK MOD and MCA PFI that will provide a 'harmonised SAR service around the UK and Falkland Islands'. It will enter service by 2012 and runs for 30 years, aiming to replace the current SAR mix of RN / RAF and civilian contracted helicopter servi9ces available currently. In other words, the SAR role will be removed from the curent Forces committment provided now. The Government are getting uinto it and if people like RBS are - what does that say to you? Profit margins......is what it says to me.

It makes me wonder what limits will be put on such a PFI - limits that do not exist at the moment - and how it will work out? I also wonder how many bases will be cut and coverage 'extended' by the whole thing. You imagine that happening to the RNLI - the government would halve the number of stations overnight, crews would need to be paid. Community spirit would die and lives might well be put at risk. Funding for new boats would be slow in coming....it would end up being a disaster.

Private lifeboat companies are in exisitence in the UK - but guess where they get their training from and whose organisation they base themselves around?

Had its day? I would challenge that and suggest that they are needed more than anything nowadays!

As for yachties and the like paying insurance, I agree with that one!

Jonty

Jonty

James_C
23rd April 2009, 20:32
I think we've been a bit too ready to climb onto our high horses whenever the RNLI is mentioned, Peter asked an innocent question, and one that I think has been taken out of context.
What I believe is being asked is the question of whether the current RNLI setup with regards to funding and objective, together with the way that's intertwined with what RN/RAF/Govt provide will continue to be fit for purpose in the years to come.
Whilst relying completely on individual donations and to a rather limited extent commercial contracts regarding training/advice has stood the test of time so far, it wouldn't take much for the RNLI to be forced to start to live hand to mouth.
Saying that I'm led to believe it's one of the wealthiest charities in the land.
Regarding crew makeup, didn't some of the larger lifeboat stations have a couple of paid staff comprising Coxswain/Engineer? Or is my grey matter having a 'moment'?

trucker
23rd April 2009, 21:23
spurn point lifeboat crews are fully paid and employed by the R.N.L.I.fully support the R.N.L.I

James_C
23rd April 2009, 21:26
Trucker,
Thanks for that, I think there might just be an article about them and some new/upgraded housing in the latest 'The Lifeboat' which I haven't got around to reading yet.

trucker
23rd April 2009, 21:27
Trucker,
Thanks for that, I think there might just be an article about them and some new/upgraded housing in the latest 'The Lifeboat' which I haven't got around to reading yet.

o.k(Thumb)

MARINEJOCKY
23rd April 2009, 22:18
It is not so much that there are those who think the RNLI has had its day but how it is funded.

I raised thousands of pounds many years ago as a lifetime supporter or was the title "govenor in the RNLI", what ever it was I spent many days helping as much as I could.

Back in the old days there were maybe more commerical ships and less pleasure yachts and now adays it may be the other way around but the RNLI existed to rescue those at sea and on the shore so I see no reason why it should be changed now.

Many people get pleasure from the seas whether it be in some old beat up cruiser or a top of the line mega yacht that I see most days over here.

It is a charity, if you do not want to give them any thing you do not have too and I would have thought from your line of work you would appreciate the donations made to any charity.

Peter, I think I know what your point is but the tone of it is upsetting. I doubt if there would be enough money coming in from yachts to pay for the service and I do beleive that if some idiot goes to sea in an unsuitable craft and has to be rescued they should pay but I doubt if those type of people have the money or even able to pay for the insurance so it would become a class thing yet again with the rich guy who has a well kept and maintained yacht with all of the safety gear up to date paying for some cheap skate in a ramshackle craft that should never have gone ina puddle never mind to sea.

The charities I have financially supported all of my working life are the RNLI, orphanages and the Blind Society.

ROBERT HENDERSON
23rd April 2009, 22:47
spurn point lifeboat crews are fully paid and employed by the R.N.L.I.fully support the R.N.L.I

I remember some years ago seeing an advert for a coxswain of Clovelly lifeboat, with at least a Masters Home Trade certificate of competency. The reason given in the advert was that he could be called upon to deliver lifeboats to other stations. Whether this is the case now or not I do not know.

Regards Robert

Steve Woodward
23rd April 2009, 23:29
The RNLI is as valid (and valued) today as it always was, be it a broken down yottie, a fisherman having a close encounter with his own nets, a commercial ship or just a kid on an air bed who has never heard of an offshore breeze - all need the RNLI.
Rather than insurance more folks with boats should join shoreline
Shoreline member
Steve

McCloggie
24th April 2009, 00:03
Back in SCotland just now.

Visited Antruther last night and walked round the harbour at 1815 and noted the lifeboat in the boat house. Met an old friend and went back along the coast - home by 2000.

Read in the paper this morning that Anstruther lifeboatr was launched at about 2000 last night to get some kids who had strayed off a public path and had got trapped.

Lifeboats had their day - I think NOT!!!!!!!

McC

benjidog
24th April 2009, 00:28
Peter,

Even if there is a reduced number of ships and fishinb boats, there is no reduction in the stupidity of swimmers, ill-trained and ill-equipped yachtsmen and people getting stuck when the tide comes in.

I can't see that there is any less need for the RNLI now and will continue to support them.

Santos
24th April 2009, 00:34
Sorry guys for getting het up and having a go at Peter, its because I believe in the spirit of the the RNLI so much and being a member, get hurt at criticism of it. The men and women who form the volunteer crews are in my opinion wonderful people who are willing to risk their lives to assist those in distress and face the worst that nature throws at them in that quest.

In the best of worlds a paid for service would be great, but as Jonty wisely points out, in todays world, cost cutting would soon erode any value that a nationally paid rescue service offered.

Whilst remaining a charity and funded by public donationation, the RNLI will remain an institution envied world wide and will attract the many who wish to serve its aims and beliefs and escape government influence and rule.

Long may it continue and long may people wish to be a part of of it.

Chris.

MARINEJOCKY
24th April 2009, 00:59
Back in SCotland just now.

Visited Antruther last night and walked round the harbour at 1815 and noted the lifeboat in the boat house. Met an old friend and went back along the coast - home by 2000.

Read in the paper this morning that Anstruther lifeboatr was launched at about 2000 last night to get some kids who had strayed off a public path and had got trapped.

Lifeboats had their day - I think NOT!!!!!!!

McC

Did you walk around Anstruther or Ainsta.

I have had one job outside of the marine industry and that was as a manager at the Ainsta holiday camp. Now that brings back Nostalgia

sidsal
1st May 2009, 22:14
RNLI:
I think the volunteer crews of the RNLI are wonderful.
However a very good friend of mine - retired master mariner who was intimately invloved with the organisation points out the following. Whether they are facts or not, I do not know -
1. The RNLI is second only to OXFAM in their income
2. They have many millions on deposit ( reputedly 34m)
3. The area secretaries or managers, or whatever are generally retired Brigadiers or naval Captains on substantial pensions yet receive very large salaries and benefits ( over 100K apparently)
4. In the Poole HQ apparently, nothing but the best is good enough
He suggests that all yachts, pedalos, windurfers, dinghys should have a purchase tax put on them to finanace a rescue service as there are many charities which would benefit from such largesse.
I am entirely neutral in this matter but submit this as a possible line for discussion among SN members.

Santos
1st May 2009, 23:57
Sidsal,

I would consider very, very, carefully what you have said re the 4 points you have made as you will have to prove what you said, should someone take issue with you. I personally believe from what I have seen in visits to Poole HQ, stays at the Lifeboat College as a student, and the general day to day running of the Institution that I am involved in, that you are wrong in what you say and the inferences you make.

You stated the facts your good friend did'nt.

Chris.

K urgess
2nd May 2009, 00:27
Since the RNLI is a charity their accounts are open to public scrutiny.
http://www.rnli.org.uk/assets/downloads/Annual%20review,%20reports%20and%20accounts/Report%20and%20account%2005.pdf
http://www.rnli.org.uk/assets/downloads/Annual%20review,%20reports%20and%20accounts/Report%20and%20account%2007.pdf

degsy
5th May 2009, 00:25
I have no knowledge of the RNLI other than it is a voluntary organisation staffed by brave men and women who put their necks on the block evey time they respond to a call out. Insurance has been mentioned on this thread I personally believe it should go further. Put it this way. To ride a motorcycle or drive a car I have to prove a safe level of competancy. If I had the money to purchase an airplane or helicopter I would have to spend many hours training, to prove the ability to pilot an aircraft. I have a Lottery ticket in my pocket, if it came up I could purchase a thirty-forty foot boat and set off on an around the British Isles adventure, something I would dearly love to do, without having to prove to anyone an ability to carry out such a hazardous undertaking. Now to my mind that is madness.

Santos
5th May 2009, 00:54
Degsy,

I can only agree, its madness that anyone without qualifications can buy a boat take their family and friends aboard and basically do what they want when they want and in any weather and conditions. It really is absurd.

Commercially the rules and regulations concerning the carriage of passengers is very strict and rightly so, but there are no rules and regulations which apply to privately owned leisure craft.

What makes a boat any different from a plane, helicopter, car or motorcycle, bugg-rd if I know. The authorities however dont seem to realise that boats can be the cause of as much loss of life as all the others put together.

I am in no way a killjoy and wish to stop people enjoying their time on the water, but it is a dangerous place if you dont know what you are doing. It is also a dangerous place if you know what you are doing.

I believe that some kind of control is necessary to stop the loss of life and risk to life that this lack of regulation causes. Until some kind of regulation to leisure boating takes place, then this annual unecessary loss of life afloat will continue.

I know that I will be shouted down and that the right to take my boat out when ever I want will be proclaimed, but the figures and evidence of unqualified people causing accidents will speak for itself.

Authority soon will have to see sence and unpopular as it will be, impose maritime regulations on all forms of private boating. I am sure that a great majority of local yachtsmen and women are very good and would walk any exam that was put in front of them, but lets do just that and examine them and put responsibility where its required, in their hands.

Chris.

billyboy
5th May 2009, 09:20
Fools in boats????
Try a week on the Norfolk broads and watch em! ... very entertaining at times
Hanging the boat up to dry, running aground in breydon water at low tide. Going through the wrong bridge arch at Yarmouth. Ramming other boats and almost getting run down by Mad yachtsmen on Oulton broad who are under full sail and makin around 15 knots.
Seen some hilarious things on those waters

Richard Green
5th May 2009, 11:23
Billy,

I have to admit to being one of those you describe (I must have been about 9 or 10). I remember passing under Potter Higham bridge with holidaymakers leaning over the parrapet. My Dad had the mast of our hired sail boat folded back and hauled hard down and the truck scraping and screeching loudly as we came into contact...the crushing embarrasment of it all. I can still see those smailing faces....

billyboy
5th May 2009, 11:34
Potter Higham bridge is a no no for most of the cruisers these days.
Last cruiser I hired was a Gliding light class from Herbert woods. I can highly recommend them

sidsal
5th May 2009, 17:23
Santos:
As you seem to be knowldgeable in RNLI matters can you find out if anyof the points I mention are valid. ? I would point out that SN is a discussion forum largely and one is quite allowed in my opinion to throw in items for discussion. Can you find out, for example if it sorrect that area managers or wahtever they are called are on the sort of salaries mentioned ?. It would be very comforting to be find out that this is not the case.

Santos
5th May 2009, 18:09
Santos:
As you seem to be knowldgeable in RNLI matters can you find out if anyof the points I mention are valid. ? I would point out that SN is a discussion forum largely and one is quite allowed in my opinion to throw in items for discussion. Can you find out, for example if it sorrect that area managers or wahtever they are called are on the sort of salaries mentioned ?. It would be very comforting to be find out that this is not the case.

Sidsal,

If you go to

http://www.rnli.org.uk/assets/downloads/Annual%20review,%20reports%20and%20accounts/Report%20and%20account%2007.pdf

you will see the Annual Accounts for the RNLI for 2007 which is public. ( The 2008 accounts are due out soon, not sure of the date.) If you go to Staff Costs you will see the number of people employed by the RNLI and a breakdown in Salaries and the numbers of people on those salaries.

The salaries are based obviously on the job they do, their experience and qualifications and their responsibilities. Dont forget that these employees are not only senior members of staff but also the likes of Marine Architects and Marine Engineers responsible for the design and building of the Lifeboats and also specialist technicians and experts in their own rights.

There are no Area Managers as such but each Area on average has a Divisional Inspector, a Deputy Divisional Inspector, an Engineering Divisional Inspector and a Training Divisional Inspector. It is the responsibilty of this team to maintain an efficent Lifeboat Service in their respective areas. They are expected to be away from home for over 80% of the time visiting and Inspecting Stations and their Lifeboats etc, testing equipment, and testing crews as to their ability. They have to ensure that all equipment functions correctly and is maintained in top order and that the crews have the high standards of training that they need and most importantly, reach the high standards set for them by the RNLI. This means going out on the Lifeboats in all weathers at all times of the year and not just on warm sunny days.

All in all I would suggest to you that they more than earn their salaries.

View the accounts they are open for all to see, if in doubt write to Poole I am sure they would be only to pleased to answer any fears you may have about how much people are paid.

Also you can visit the RNLI web site at http://www.rnli.org.uk/ where there is more information about the RNLI.

Regards

Chris.

James_C
5th May 2009, 19:35
Extracted from the 2007 report. It'll be interesting to see what the figures are for this year as the number of people earning 60,000 plus in 2007 was eight more than the previous year.

60,000-69,000 - 18 persons
70,000-79,000 - 2
80,000-89,000 - 1
90,000-99,000 - 2
100,000-109,000 - 2
140,000-149,000 - 1

All of whom are in the pension scheme of course.

For a charity which admittedly has a particularly slick fundraising/marketing campaign, the above is a bit of a shock, regardless of the job they do.

Santos
5th May 2009, 19:41
Take it up with them Jim I am sure that they would be more than happy to discuss it with you. Andrew Fremantle is the Chief Exec, why dont you write to him. I have in the past and found him very helpful.


I have extracted this from the 2007 Dr Barnardos report :

60.000-69,999 - 6
70,000-79,999 - 13
80,000-89,999 - 3
90,000-99,999 - 3
120,000-129,000 - 1
150,000-159,000 - 1

All of whom are in the pension scheme.

Seems to me they have a lot more higher earners than the RNLI and are not even in the top ten earners like the RNLI is.


Chris.

sidsal
5th May 2009, 20:32
Some years ago I was at the HMS Conway annual dinner and the President was the then head of the RNLI. I forget his name but will contact some mariner friends to see if they can recall his name. I would be wasting my time looking at their accounts as I am no accountant.
Regarding money on deposit I was suprised some time ago to see that one of the charities I support ( Shipwrecked Mariners Soc) has a sum on deposit but someone pointed out that it was the interest gained on this that enabled them to help worthy applicants for help.
I do firmly believe however that ANY charity should be open to public scrutiny because, as most of us are aware, many have very heavy admin costs.

Santos
5th May 2009, 21:06
Just as a matter of interest here is the Top Ten Charity Earners for 2007


Ranking Charity Name Total Voluntary Income

1 Cancer Research UK 297m
2 Oxfam 176m
3 British Red Cross Society (The) 116m
4 Royal National Lifeboat Institution 108m
5 Save the Children (UK) 96m
6 Macmillan Cancer Support 92m
7 National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children 90m
8 Christian Aid 89m
9 Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals 88m
10 Salvation Army Trust (The) 87m

Chris.

sidsal
5th May 2009, 23:47
Amazing ! I didn't know that Cancer Aid got more than Oxfam.
Usually this week I do a round for Christian Aid but have ducked it owing to advancing years. I found that the concil house tennants were more generous than the upmarket houses in this area. One has to be quite thick skinned to collect door to door. Our Rotary club is doing a duck race on a local stream/river next Sunday and we are selling tickets at 1 a go at Waitrose supermarket and a local garden centre. Raised nearly 2K in the last 2 weekends. Goes to local charities - carers etc.

degsy
13th May 2009, 20:10
Glad I refound this thread, in my teens I had two fantastic holidays on the broads. Remember being guided through the bridge at Potter Higham. And an incident in The Lord Nelson at Wroxham, if memory serves, it was the night we discovered Whitbread Final Selection one of the stronger Barley Wines in nip size bottle's. As could be expected thinks got a bit giggly[=P] . The Manager came over to us and related a story of a holiday maker who had been drunk in a local hostelry and drowned, falling into the Broad attempting to get onto his boat. We being a little, well maybe a lot stupid, continued to drink resulting in a refusal to serve and being asked to leave the gentlemans Public House, p'''d off at the time. See the wisdom now.

tennents1
26th May 2009, 01:02
Also helicopters dont like the fog!!!!!