What on Earth are Indicator Cards

Chris Isaac
30th April 2009, 21:50
For years I heard that the engineers were "taking cards". I never thought to ask what they were doing..... so, What were they doing?

Fieldsy
30th April 2009, 22:11
For years I heard that the engineers were "taking cards". I never thought to ask what they were doing..... so, What were they doing?

It's a means of measuring the power output of each cylinder of the engine, and helps diagnose potential problems.

Derek Roger
30th April 2009, 22:15
Two main types of cards Chris ;
Both taken in a similar manner with the indicator device device fitted to the top of the cylinder head on the indicator cock . It was spring loaded device with a small piston which recorded cylinder pressure . It had a rotating drum on which a piece of indicator paper could be attached and a pencil ( for the want of a better word ) which could be placed against the paper giving a tracing of the cyliner pressure at different stages of a complete cycle of the engine .
The first type used with 2 strokes mainly gave a power curve ; one could be used to give the Horse Power of a particular cylinder . The curve looked like a lop sided elipse and by means of a planimeter one could measure the area inside the closed curve and determine power .
The 2nd type of indicator card most used was that of a " Draw card " which correctly taken would give an open curve which showed Max pressure and a few other things do do with point of injection of fuel condition of valves and many more things ..


To go into detail of the methods of taking "cards " and their interpretation would require a book !
It was a favorite question in BOT examinations for Engineers . One that many failed .

I hope this brief description helps .

To get accurate results reqired good weather with steady engine conditions ; one of the worst things when taking cards was to have sweat fall on the card which tended to destroy it requiring a retaking ; again and again sometimes ..
Regards Derek

Duncan112
1st May 2009, 05:42
With Bank line's Doxfords as well as power cards we used to take fuel valve lift diagrams (something i never came across again until the advent of electronic transducers that clipped round the fuel injection pipe http://www.abb.com/product/us/9AAC125523.aspx?country=US) and crosshead diagrams which showed that the polo valve in the crosshead lubrication system was working correctly.

Were these additional cards unique to Bank Line's Doxfords or did other companies do this?

davetodd
1st May 2009, 06:57
I have recently added 5 images to the gallery ( Engines section ) showing a Dobbie-McInnes Indicator and some card explanations.
Keyword Indicator.
These may help Chris Isaac with the excellent comments by Derek Roger and Fieldsy.
Regards
Dave

raybnz
1st May 2009, 08:14
One could always tell how good the Indicator Card taking went by the amount of failed ones left on the plates

spongebob
1st May 2009, 08:14
Yes Dave, Derek and Fieldsy have explained it well but one of my old books describe the indicator diagram as being the engineer's equivalent of a doctors cardiogram, it tells the health of a diesel or stream engine by plotting the cylinder pressure against the piston stroke.
On triple expansion steam engines the optimum performance is obtained by altering the 'lag and lead' or timing of the shuttle valves admitting and exhausting the steam.
The piston stroke is converted to an rotary oscillation and the varying cylinder pressure allows a force diagram to be traced and the area of this relates to the performance.
Long time since I have taken cards but it was the apprentice's job when we took the old Lake class Frigates out on trials after an engine refit.

Bob

Chris Isaac
1st May 2009, 08:47
Thanks guys, I have waited 40 years to find that out!

Fieldsy
1st May 2009, 10:02
Yes Dave, Derek and Fieldsy have explained it well..

Nah,
Derek's answer was excellent - I just gave the lazy synopsis!

R798780
1st May 2009, 12:35
I seem to recall seeing a chief engineer running a gauge round the line drawn on the indicator card, bit like the device to find miles on a map, only his explanation was that it gave the area within the line, and from that, the power. Probably Vic Murray on Lucerna which had Sulzer 7RND76.

Do such devices exist?

Derek Roger
1st May 2009, 12:44
I seem to recall seeing a chief engineer running a gauge round the line drawn on the indicator card, bit like the device to find miles on a map, only his explanation was that it gave the area within the line, and from that, the power. Probably Vic Murray on Lucerna which had Sulzer 7RND76.

Do such devices exist?

Called a planimeter Hugh . Derek

gordy
1st May 2009, 13:21
Had my finest hour in the Denny Ship Tank explaining the card taking equipment to another visitor. (Thumb) The museum guide hadn't been asked before and didn't know about it.
I hope the young lad understood what I was on about.
http://www.museumsgalleriesscotland.org.uk/member/denny-ship-model-experiment-tank

benjidog
1st May 2009, 14:05
Gordy,

I remember seeing a similar tank to that at the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington in the 1960s. I think they dragged models along the length of the tank making various measurements to check streamlining, drag and all that kind of thing. A marine equivalent of a wind tunnel really.

eldersuk
1st May 2009, 15:29
With Bank line's Doxfords as well as power cards we used to take fuel valve lift diagrams (something i never came across again until the advent of electronic transducers that clipped round the fuel injection pipe http://www.abb.com/product/us/9AAC125523.aspx?country=US) and crosshead diagrams which showed that the polo valve in the crosshead lubrication system was working correctly.

Were these additional cards unique to Bank Line's Doxfords or did other companies do this?

On the old type Doxfords with mechanical fuel valves we had a device consisting essentially of a bell-crank lever which attached to the fuel valve and allowed valve lift cards to be taken. Additionally, by changing the spring in the indicator we took scavenge pump cards, although what good these did was questionable, after all there are not many adjustments to be made on a Doxford scavenge pump.

Derek

davetodd
1st May 2009, 16:42
Thanks guys, I have waited 40 years to find that out!
So oil and water don't mix ?
But then oil always finished on top anyway.
Now where did I put my hard hat!(Smoke)
Regards
Dave

MARINEJOCKY
1st May 2009, 17:00
If I remember correctly an old engineer showed me how to take them by hand for turning the drum and you had to have a "feel" for the engine stroke.

I actually liked taking them and kept dozens of them when balancing each cylinder on a trip and the fuel consumption & piston ring/liner wear would all go down.

What do they use now on the latest slow speeds. I can not imagine any one going along blowing the cocks, fitting the indicator along with the red backed paper and then pulling the string by hand.

The more I write the more I remember, was it not the stylus went up and down per stroke and you were supposed to connect the string that rotated the drum down to around the cam shaft but it was easier with practice just to pull the drum string by hand.

I also took injection pressures which would help in deciding when to change injection nozzles and or pump plungers.

I am sure there must be a digital display which is interfaced to the electronic common rail injection system and every thing is done automatically now.

Satanic Mechanic
1st May 2009, 18:37
Still take them - usually using electronic transponders interfaced with a flywheel position sensor. Stunning bits of kit - you download the information into a program that shows you all the traces and calculations. You can superimpose all the traces on each other so you can see where any differences are or superimpose historical traces to see changes over time.

I still flash up the manual one from time to time either for my own amusement comparing me against the computer or to let the cadets have a go. Totally lost the knack for taking a draw diagram though!!!

heres a link to the kyma version - probably the one i'd choose

http://www.kyma.no/products/kyma_diesel_analyzer_(mip)/

Ian J. Huckin
1st May 2009, 19:05
By running the planimeter around the PV trace the area would be given. This, when run through a formula (long gone), would give the IHP of that single stroke. Another formula would give you MEP. The card gave max pressure and scavenge pressure by using a special ruler against the plot.

As very well pointed out by others here, this card was generated by cyl gas pressure moving the stylus up and down, the rotating action of the drum was caused when the drum cord was attached to a follower on the indicator cam for that unit. All the eng had to do was press the stylus against the drum (paper) for one cycle.

The "draw" card was generated by disconecting the cord from the cam follower and then getting "in synch" with the engine, I used to watch the stylus, then at the correct time pull the cord at an even pace. This card would give you:

1..Max firing pressure
2..Max compression pressure
3..An indication of fuel pump timing
4..the period of uncontrolled burning
5..the period of controlled burning
6..an indication of the condition/operation of the fuel valve

I used to take a regular PV card then overlay the draw card on it. MANs at 136 rpm were good training, the slower the better. I have actually taken draw cards on generators running at 600 rpm...

The main element of running a diesel at maximum fuel and performance efficiency is to balance the max pressures, not the exhaust temps. I watched so many chiefs fiddle fiddle fiddle with Doxford timing blocks just to get exh temps balanced, then the engine would hardly run at low rpm or manouver properly. Beleive it of not one of these C/Es name was Jimmy Fiddler (Fiddler by name, Fiddler by nature)

Hope it does not sound like I am preaching....as the previous explanations were spot on....

Satanic Mechanic
1st May 2009, 19:52
The main element of running a diesel at maximum fuel and performance efficiency is to balance the max pressures, not the exhaust temps. I watched so many chiefs fiddle fiddle fiddle with Doxford timing blocks just to get exh temps balanced, then the engine would hardly run at low rpm or manouver properly. Beleive it of not one of these C/Es name was Jimmy Fiddler (Fiddler by name, Fiddler by nature)

Hope it does not sound like I am preaching....as the previous explanations were spot on....

Another very effective way of getting a head slap from me was to adjust the Jensen cylinder lubricators so all the little balls were in line. that used to to drive me mental - especially if I had just spent the previous trip getting the specific consumption just right

Macphail
1st May 2009, 20:07
Avon Forest Pielstick, 36 cylinders, indicator cock at an angle pointing to the dirty bilge. Taking draw cards, put each completed card in the indicator's box, making sure that they where clear when blowing through the cock, cylinder 32,
Ken Pertwee the ER greaser fron Cardiff (Ken the Perv or KP the nut), was cleaning up beside me, he moved the indicator box, I blew through the indicator cock and all the completed cards blew down into the dirty bilge.
Speechless.

John.

Derek Roger
1st May 2009, 20:17
On Pielsticks I used to take each cylinder peak pressure by slowly pulling the string to get about 4 peaks and finish off with a draw card . Would then use the card to get an average peak pressure and the draw card to see what the condition of the injector . It was a real pain taking a card on each of Two 14 Cylinder Engines .
Agree with Ian that it would really tick one off with people messing with the fuel rack settings on the pumps to try and balance the exhaust temps !

Cheers Derek

daveywoods
1st May 2009, 20:27
I seem to remember years ago one chief drawing " bananas " on indicator cards with a plastic templte he'd made This was the set sent in to the Office with his monthly report. Every cylinder performing perfectly.
woodsy.

spongebob
1st May 2009, 21:01
Can anyone out there refresh my memory as to how we picked up the piston stroke on the steam engines? I can remember the bit of string with the hook on it that was connected to the indicator to provide the reciprocating motion but not where it came from on the engine. It was all done over 50 years ago now.

Bob

Don Matheson
1st May 2009, 23:19
If I remember correctly we used a Mohaik device to take cards on the Sulzer. Same methods as so well described by Derek. I just wonder how many of those little machines hit the engine room skylight when not tightened on to the indicator cock.
At school in Glasgow out of a class of 25-30 engineers I was the only one that could take cards on their test engines. What did the other guys learn when they were juniors?
Don

gordy
1st May 2009, 23:45
Gordy,

I remember seeing a similar tank to that at the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington in the 1960s. I think they dragged models along the length of the tank making various measurements to check streamlining, drag and all that kind of thing. A marine equivalent of a wind tunnel really.

The set up for making the 'model' hull shapes was amazing. They were (are) made from wax, and the shaping machine operator sits at a large vertical 'drawing' board and traces out the hull form drawing. The stylus is connected by linkages to two milling cutters that cut the hull shape which is inverted. This has a rough stepped finish which is smoothed off by something like a spoke shave. What really amazed me about this operation was when the operator moved up the fairly large drawing, the stylus linkage, also joined to another mechanism, raised the stool he was sitting on.

The museum at Dumbarton is well worth a visit.

Chris Isaac
2nd May 2009, 11:35
I am beginning to wish I hadn't asked

ENOUGH ALREADY!

Satanic Mechanic
2nd May 2009, 11:45
I am beginning to wish I hadn't asked

ENOUGH ALREADY!


Look on it as self inflicted injury - you saw a bunch of engineers and asked them an engineering question.

Actually that reminds me of this one time down the engine room.............................................. ............(Jester)

Chris Isaac
2nd May 2009, 12:44
But at sea all engineers wanted to talk about was cars, women and football.
What's happened?

Satanic Mechanic
2nd May 2009, 13:01
But at sea all engineers wanted to talk about was cars, women and football.
What's happened?


Thats just our seagoing persona - when we are at home we just talk about ships and engine rooms. Just our wee secret eh!!!!!

davetodd
2nd May 2009, 17:00
Can anyone out there refresh my memory as to how we picked up the piston stroke on the steam engines? I can remember the bit of string with the hook on it that was connected to the indicator to provide the reciprocating motion but not where it came from on the engine. It was all done over 50 years ago now.

Bob
Still trying to recall how it was done.
Seem to remember changing springs when taking cards from HP,MP and LP.
I think for the HP we attached to the pump arms (from the crosshead to the air pump/feed pump rams.) to a brass eye near the fulcrum to get the stroke length right.
Many grey cells have dropped in the bilges over the last 50 odd years.

Anyway, here's a good website to browse through for steam and diesel indicators.
http://www.oldengine.org:80/members/diesel/Indicator/Indicator1.htm
Regards
Dave

Ian J. Huckin
2nd May 2009, 17:42
Look on it as self inflicted injury - you saw a bunch of engineers and asked them an engineering question.

Actually that reminds me of this one time down the engine room.............................................. ............(Jester)

Spot on mate....every marine engineer is a saga waiting to happen....

Macphail
2nd May 2009, 21:59
The perfect indicator card also required the perfect paper to do the job.

Two types, the very thin and the paper with substance, (Just like bog paper, you pay for what you get). When requested on the ships chandlers storing list, you usually got the thin stuff, and he charged for the thick, this was a pain, you had to get the adjustment of the stylus pressure just right on the card, otherwise, the card got ripped up, a good taker of an indicator card was a gift, just like a good natural welder.

John.

spongebob
3rd May 2009, 00:44
John, you are right, the paper quality was important. On the steam engines there was always a bit of moisture around even if it was dripping off the end of your nose as you grappled to do the job on the tops.
This might have been the perfect role for that shiny moisture proof Jeyes toilet paper that used to abound.

Bob

Chris Isaac
3rd May 2009, 10:13
I now have a headache, I am going back to my cabin!

david freeman
3rd May 2009, 10:16
Indicator Cards 2009. What now with the computer imagry: Do engineers still have to struggle blowing out the cocks and setting up the engine for the Dobbie McInness indicators for peak pressure and cycle efficiency (Spelling?). Any young bloods amongst you old codgers who know what the modern drill is for operating a modern catheral or medium speed diesel is: keeping the engine super efficient with the modern fuels which I suspect is at the heavy end of the spectrium and crap to treat and burn.

Satanic Mechanic
3rd May 2009, 10:17
I now have a headache, I am going back to my cabin!

Aw don't go I've not told about my piezo crystal pressure transducer and induction proximity sensor yet

Satanic Mechanic
3rd May 2009, 10:28
Indicator Cards 2009. What now with the computer imagry: Do engineers still have to struggle blowing out the cocks and setting up the engine for the Dobbie McInness indicators for peak pressure and cycle efficiency (Spelling?). Any young bloods amongst you old codgers who know what the modern drill is for operating a modern catheral or medium speed diesel is: keeping the engine super efficient with the modern fuels which I suspect is at the heavy end of the spectrium and crap to treat and burn.

Thankfully using valves now - so you dont get that high velocity Klinger packing experience any more.

Probably the biggest and most important development in recent years has been the introduction of electronic cylinder lubricators - the specific consumption of CLO is down to silly levels 0.5-0.6 g/shp hr with a corresponding clean scavenge - amazing bits of kit.

There is a trend away from the really heavy fuel - it is a bit of false economy but the use of purifiers whose sludge cycle is initiated by water content of the outlet oil remains.

If they change the emissions laws anymore though - you will see some radical changes

Ian J. Huckin
3rd May 2009, 18:49
Indicator Cards 2009. What now with the computer imagry: Do engineers still have to struggle blowing out the cocks and setting up the engine for the Dobbie McInness indicators for peak pressure and cycle efficiency (Spelling?). Any young bloods amongst you old codgers who know what the modern drill is for operating a modern catheral or medium speed diesel is: keeping the engine super efficient with the modern fuels which I suspect is at the heavy end of the spectrium and crap to treat and burn.

Hey David, I am an old blood still playing with all that sort of gear. As Manager of Power Generation up in Alaska I have everything from Diesel to Hydro to Combustion turbine and I get to work on them as much as I want.

Check out "Premet" (I use the Premet XL) I'll get the link in a mo' this is the equipment I use. I run all sorts of CATs and Enterprise Diesels up to about 10,000hp either at 420 or 900 rpm. You still blow the indicator cocks through, connect the equipment and take readings just as in the old days. Difference is that the info recorded, along with info from a crank position senser and accelerometers run through the appropriate software will give you more useable info than I could have dreamed of 20 years ago.

Thing is, the principles never change.

I use a transportable piece of equipment purely for cost saving but permanent installations can be set up.

So, believe me when I say, all the old stuff is still being measured and, in some cases, by an old guy that has been doing it since 1968!!!!

http://www.lemag.de/index.php?id=home

Ian J. Huckin
3rd May 2009, 19:03
Thankfully using valves now - so you dont get that high velocity Klinger packing experience any more.

Probably the biggest and most important development in recent years has been the introduction of electronic cylinder lubricators - the specific consumption of CLO is down to silly levels 0.5-0.6 g/shp hr with a corresponding clean scavenge - amazing bits of kit.

There is a trend away from the really heavy fuel - it is a bit of false economy but the use of purifiers whose sludge cycle is initiated by water content of the outlet oil remains.

If they change the emissions laws anymore though - you will see some radical changes

Mr. Satanic Mechanic,

You consistantly bring up great points and ones worthy of discussion. Just to show Chris Isaac that there is plenty more meat left on the bone he tossed us lets push the boundaries of this thread a little....

Indicator cards (a draw card) may show one indicator is sticking...well that is acceptable as a mechanical problem. But what if all valves start showing the same "picture" especially after changing to a new fuel???. O.K. where I am going with this is "centrifuging" You mentioned about fuel oil purifiers and sludge cycles.....

Over the years I met with some crappy fuel and found that the very very best way to process it for the best condition for the engine was to put two centrifuges in series, the first as a purifier and the second as a clarifier. You have to dis-able the clarifier pump and let the discharge pump from the purifier push the FO through the clarifier.

Make sure the Gravity disc in the purifier is exactly right and is in tune with the flow rate and seperating temp then, if possible, ramp the flow up until you are 10% ahead of engine consumption so that the day tank goes into recirc.

Even adding trace heat while at FSS sometimes made the difference even though your viscometer was indicating correctly.

What think you......?

davetodd
3rd May 2009, 22:23
Ian says:-
"So, believe me when I say, all the old stuff is still being measured and, in some cases, by an old guy that has been doing it since 1968!!!!"

Well done Sir.
So the totally unmanned engine space is not yet here?
I remember many years ago, when a certain master said to me,
" About time we had remote control for engine start and stop to go with this speed and direction system we have. What d'ya think Chief?"
" You already have it. All you have to do is knock on my door and the engines start!"
Cheers Ian, keep going.
Regards
Dave

Derek Roger
3rd May 2009, 23:55
A minor observation . If you did not clean the Indicator equipment and make sure the piston was well lubricated . The cards you took were worthless . Also the indicator cocks had to be given a good blow to get rid of all the SH1T in the line before proceeding .


Derek

Ian J. Huckin
4th May 2009, 02:49
A minor observation . If you did not clean the Indicator equipment and make sure the piston was well lubricated . The cards you took were worthless . Also the indicator cocks had to be given a good blow to get rid of all the SH1T in the line before proceeding .


Derek

Quite right Derek. Also, get the job done in less than 6 cycles per card else you overheat your indicator....then the piston starts sticking...

Satanic Mechanic
9th May 2009, 09:41
Mr. Satanic Mechanic,

You consistantly bring up great points and ones worthy of discussion. Just to show Chris Isaac that there is plenty more meat left on the bone he tossed us lets push the boundaries of this thread a little....

Indicator cards (a draw card) may show one indicator is sticking...well that is acceptable as a mechanical problem. But what if all valves start showing the same "picture" especially after changing to a new fuel???. O.K. where I am going with this is "centrifuging" You mentioned about fuel oil purifiers and sludge cycles.....

Over the years I met with some crappy fuel and found that the very very best way to process it for the best condition for the engine was to put two centrifuges in series, the first as a purifier and the second as a clarifier. You have to dis-able the clarifier pump and let the discharge pump from the purifier push the FO through the clarifier.

Make sure the Gravity disc in the purifier is exactly right and is in tune with the flow rate and seperating temp then, if possible, ramp the flow up until you are 10% ahead of engine consumption so that the day tank goes into recirc.

Even adding trace heat while at FSS sometimes made the difference even though your viscometer was indicating correctly.

What think you......?

Why thank you(Hippy)

The whole heavy fuel thing is an on going problem. It is now essential that bunkers are tested on loading, I never want to here the expression "well it looks like propylene that is polymerizing in the tanks" again(EEK) . Used lub oil is another belter of an additive.. So assuming you miss all that and the usual sodium vanadium combinations it comes to treating it.

I have used series treatment in the past but nowadays I tend just to purify it. Firstly get the oil warm at every stage, drain off water from the bunker tanks and settling tanks every watch, run the oil through tye purifier as hot as possible so there is a good SG difference, water sensing purifiers don't use gravity discs so it is much easier to set them up to just exceed the engine flow. I also go for about 10% over. I keep the trace heating on and adjust the visco if neccesary to counteract any cooling

Have you ever run into heavier than water bunkers - they popped up from time to time on steamers - good fun finding water!!!

Ian J. Huckin
10th May 2009, 18:38
Why thank you(Hippy)
Have you ever run into heavier than water bunkers - they popped up from time to time on steamers - good fun finding water!!!

I've heard of it, never experienced it. I picture going in a bunker tank and scimming off water like you would fat off the top of a good crock pot!!!!:sweat:

I would imagine in a boiler fuel oil system you could get away with it but on a diesel cycle....no way.

We should start a thread on Lub Oils then you would really see me rant and rave. My true character would really come out(MAD)

Ian

Philthechill
11th May 2009, 15:32
Water floating on oil?

Have you two, Satanic Mechanic and Ian J.Huckin, been on the waccy?

If you haven't then can you explain how this phenomena comes about as it goes against all sorts of Laws of Physics!!

I've looked on several web-sites and I can't find one which lists ANY oil having a s.g. of more than 1.000.

Most tanker-spills seem to involve crude-carriers, (which is probably as heavy as oil can be), yet the horror-pictures beloved by Greenpeace/Friends of The Earth/Old Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all, after a tanker has run aground, or been in a collision, invariably show pictures of huge dollops of oil FLOATING on the surface so how come you chaps have seen oil, which is so heavy, water floats on it?

We MUST be told!!!! Salaams, Phil(Hippy) P.S. Ian! Satanic Mechanic has started a Thread on Lube oils!!!

Satanic Mechanic
11th May 2009, 16:02
Water floating on oil?

Have you two, Satanic Mechanic and Ian J.Huckin, been on the waccy?

If you haven't then can you explain how this phenomena comes about as it goes against all sorts of Laws of Physics!!

I've looked on several web-sites and I can't find one which lists ANY oil having a s.g. of more than 1.000.

Most tanker-spills seem to involve crude-carriers, (which is probably as heavy as oil can be), yet the horror-pictures beloved by Greenpeace/Friends of The Earth/Old Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all, invariably show pictures of huge dollops of oil FLOATING on the surface so how come you chaps have seen oil, which is so heavy, water floats on it?

We MUST be told!!!! Salaams, Phil(Hippy) P.S. Ian! Satanic Mechanic has started a Thread on Lube oils!!!


Of course you can get oil heavier than water :)

Crude oil is actually pretty light , in fact in can be very light indeed, Arabian superlight etc. Just depends on its constituent parts.

As you start to remove the lighter , and more valuable, phases the oil becomes thicker and thicker and heavier and heavier until you end up with asphaltenes and resins.

Now Reisidual fuel oil is most definitely at the courser end of the hydro carbon scale C20 and above and as more uses and more efficient refining methods are found - it is getting even coarser.

You hear the words 180, 360, 720, this actually the kinetic viscosity of the fuel, usually at 50*C - but what we are interested in is the density.

The standard we are interested in is ISO 8217 - the maximum density is 1010 at 15*C
Residual fuel oil can easily be slightly heavier than water BUT is HIGHLY temperature dependent. Now in bunker tanks the temperature is not so high but will be enough to have a temperature gradient across the height of the tank which means different densities - which means water can sometimes form in layers halfway up tanks etc.

It was this idea that led to ALCAP type purifiers which instead of gravity discs took into account that even with heating the densities may be too close to have efficient centrifugal (yes I know it doesn't really exist - as far as I am concerned it works therefore it must be there (Smoke) ) purification - so instead they measured the water content of the outlet.

Satanic Mechanic
11th May 2009, 17:31
I should add I have not seen that type of bunkers since the 80's and never ever on a motor vessel, only on steamers where to be honest you could burn stewed ***** and get away with it (actually you can't - boilers are not as insensitive as some would have you believe, but they are still nowhere near as namby pamby as a motor ship when it comes to fuel quality)

Ron Stringer
11th May 2009, 19:01
Isn't the discussion about fuel quality becoming a little academic in light of the negative comments from various bodies about the high levels of atmospheric pollution being created by ships? Unfavourable comparisons between the high-sulphur fuels in common use at sea and the relative cleanliness of fuels used by other forms of transport are becoming more strident. Even the aeronautical industry is claiming that is it far more ecologically-friendly than shipping.

Various EU and other agencies are getting in on the act and criticising IMO and marine administrations for failing to control pollution. I understand that the USA has recently declared it will establish air pollution limits for coastal areas. Can't be too long before pressure is applied enforce general improvements in fuel quality.

Satanic Mechanic
11th May 2009, 19:34
Isn't the discussion about fuel quality becoming a little academic in light of the negative comments from various bodies about the high levels of atmospheric pollution being created by ships? Unfavourable comparisons between the high-sulphur fuels in common use at sea and the relative cleanliness of fuels used by other forms of transport are becoming more strident. Even the aeronautical industry is claiming that is it far more ecologically-friendly than shipping.

Various EU and other agencies are getting in on the act and criticising IMO and marine administrations for failing to control pollution. I understand that the USA has recently declared it will establish air pollution limits for coastal areas. Can't be too long before pressure is applied enforce general improvements in fuel quality.

That is a complicated one, ships are easy targets - no passengers as a rule, not that it makes much difference really, the costs are always passed on.

Now it depends on how you define pollution I suppose, is lots of light pollution better than small amounts of heavy pollution. also how do you measure it, actual mass quantity or reference it against power output or fuel consumption.

So - these are not realistic or specific figures - which one is best

Case A :- An engine produces 1 tonne of pollution in a day from 100 tonnes of fuel and has produced 1 MW of work

Case B: An engine produce 1 tonne of pollution in a day from 50 tonnes of fuel and has produced 1MW of work

You see the problem?

peter drake
11th May 2009, 20:56
There are a few here for Brian's Nautical Terms post I think
Pete

cubpilot
12th May 2009, 12:38
Sadly the environmental lobby lose sight of the fundamenatl principles of oil refining. that is at the end of the process you end up with the residuals that can be treated as just waste, possibly used as black top for roads or be used as a fuel thereby saving the better refined products for other purposes.
the same arguement applies to petrol. if we did not use constructively in IC engines this fraction of crude oil would end up being burnt off in a flare stack as i am not aware, and i stand to be corrected, there is no another use for it.
taxation on petrol in an endevour to reduce the production of petrol is just pie in the sky thinking. in the total scheme of things it is better to use the petrol and residual oil than to dump it as waste.

Satanic Mechanic
12th May 2009, 13:04
Sadly the environmental lobby lose sight of the fundamenatl principles of oil refining. that is at the end of the process you end up with the residuals that can be treated as just waste, possibly used as black top for roads or be used as a fuel thereby saving the better refined products for other purposes.
the same arguement applies to petrol. if we did not use constructively in IC engines this fraction of crude oil would end up being burnt off in a flare stack as i am not aware, and i stand to be corrected, there is no another use for it.
taxation on petrol in an endevour to reduce the production of petrol is just pie in the sky thinking. in the total scheme of things it is better to use the petrol and residual oil than to dump it as waste.

I wouldn't say that was entirely true, the fundemantal principle of oil refining is to seperate the hydrocarbon mix into its constiuent parts whereby they can then be blended or kept seperate dependent on usage and sold for the highest profit.

The only reason you flare is to to get rid of excess pressure safely- otherwise it is money going up the flue.

Petrol is a blend of light aliphatic hydrocarbons in the C5-C12 range with the additon of amounts of aromatics - all these compounds can be used elsewhere in industry as chemical feed or fuel.

As you extract heavier and heavier hydrocarbons you have an ever increasing variety of isomers each with there own properties.

As you say though as you get towards the end of the hydrocarbon scale the less useful it becomes although this threshold moves all the time as more uses are found.

The end products become more and more bitumin like, which is where we start to use the fuel. It is heavy residual oil, heavy in Poly aromatics (which is what can make it heavier than water).

So we burn waste oil, get work out of it more efficiently than an other type of engine BUT we do produce greater pollution than for the similar mass quantity of light phase hydrocarbon - well sort off, the big one here is SOx due to sulphur being present in residual oil as carbon disulphide which is in effect the dissolving agent for the polyaromatic hydrocarbons as well as free sulpher and hydrogen sulphide. So we can now get low sulphur residual fuel oil, this now brings us to the subject of NOx, and that folks is a story for another day

cubpilot
12th May 2009, 14:32
Should there be a sudden huge fall in the use of petrol in IC engines but all other demands for refinery products stay the same, the refinery will still be creating the same volume of compounds that make up petrol blends but is there the demand elsewhere for these products at the same level of consumption but not as a fuel in some other plant. using any of it as a fuel elsewhere rather defeats any environmental case for CO2 reduction.

This, in essence, is my opinion: that you cannot attempt to cap the use of one product by taxation or legislation without an alternative non combustion use, failure to have another use results in stockpiles that must be disposed of as waste if the refining process is to continue to meet other non fuel demands.
I would contend that it is better, despite the SOx and NOx problems that have to be overcome, to use residual fuels constructively in marine engines and power stations. There is no difference in the weight of CO2 in the exhaust for a given HP output whatever the fuel type in use even if the loaded weight is vastly different.

Satanic Mechanic
12th May 2009, 14:55
No they will just switch to heavier crudes in smaller quantities and synthesise any excess. Trust me refineries and oil companies are very very good indeed at producing exactly what is required.

CO2 production - agree completely.

Fieldsy
12th May 2009, 15:20
The next time Chris Isaac's curiosity gets the better of him, can someone take him out and shoot him before he posts?
(Jester) (Jester) (Jester)

Satanic Mechanic
12th May 2009, 15:24
The next time Chris Isaac's curiosity gets the better of him, can someone take him out and shoot him before he posts?
(Jester)


(Jester) (Jester) - like I said - its self inflicted, he should just have pm'd one of us

Fieldsy
12th May 2009, 15:34
(Jester) (Jester) - like I said - its self inflicted, he should just have pm'd one of us


Nah - it's been an interesting trip down memory lane!

spongebob
13th May 2009, 02:25
From indicator cards to crank-case corner, what nostalgia!

Bob

R798780
13th May 2009, 07:02
Water floating on oil?

Have you two, Satanic Mechanic and Ian J.Huckin, been on the waccy?

If you haven't then can you explain how this phenomena comes about as it goes against all sorts of Laws of Physics!!

I've looked on several web-sites and I can't find one which lists ANY oil having a s.g. of more than 1.000.

Most tanker-spills seem to involve crude-carriers, (which is probably as heavy as oil can be), yet the horror-pictures beloved by Greenpeace/Friends of The Earth/Old Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all, after a tanker has run aground, or been in a collision, invariably show pictures of huge dollops of oil FLOATING on the surface so how come you chaps have seen oil, which is so heavy, water floats on it?

We MUST be told!!!! Salaams, Phil(Hippy) !!

Phil, I have carried carbon black feedstock a couple of times. To all intents it seemed to be fuel oil, but had an sg of about 1.040 and the seawater floated on top of it. Except for the fact that it was salt critical for processing into carbon black and the cargo tanks had to be fresh water washed.

spongebob
13th May 2009, 08:19
Phil, some types of transformer oil have specific gravities in excess of 1.00.
We used to use it as a sealing medium in the old Bailey Meter Co's boiler air flow meters.Why? I can't remember!

Bob

makko
13th May 2009, 10:49
Nice to see the discussion of HFO - One day I will finish my paper on HFO/engine operation!

Now, before this dies off, what about "leads"! This should also prove an interesting theme for Mr. Isaac!

BTW, I hold a similar fascination for "boxing the compass" and Lord Kelvin's Balls - A dark art??!!

Rgds.
Dave

chadburn
13th May 2009, 11:25
The taking of "leads" is something most Engineer's enjoyed doing, did they not?

spongebob
13th May 2009, 12:00
I once put leads into the a bottom end to be asked by the new first tripper fourth what they were for!
I said "to take up the slack"!

Bob

Philthechill
15th May 2009, 14:25
Having been soundly put-in-my-place with regard to my flippant comments re. oils having a s.g. greated than 1.000 I feel the only honourable course of action left to me now is the tried, and tested, bottle of whisky and Smith & Wesson revolver!

I could have stood the gently (?) scathing, flippant, comments from my fellow-engineers but when I told my chemist daughter what I had posted she gave me an almighty bollocking and took me through the various stages of a cracking column and only stopped berating me once I could convince her I'd finally "got it"! Her disdain has proved to be the straw that broke the camels back!!!

This shame has proved too much for me and, once I've finished this litre bottle of Caol Isla, it will be, "Farewell cruel world!" and, "Hello Paradise!" (What a shame I never changed my religion as I could have twenty-four virgins waiting for me, when I get to t'other side!! Mind you with my crap understanding of the s.g. of various oils it's doubtful if I'd know what to do with 'em) Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Satanic Mechanic
15th May 2009, 14:42
Having been soundly put-in-my-place with regard to my flippant comments re. oils having a s.g. greated than 1.000 I feel the only honourable course of action left to me now is the tried, and tested, bottle of whisky and Smith & Wesson revolver!

I could have stood the gently (?) scathing comments from my fellow-engineers but when I told my chemist daughter what I had posted she gave me an almighty bollocking and took me through the various stages of a cracking column and only stopped berating me once I could convince her I'd finally "got it"! Her disdain has proved to be the straw that broke the camels back!!!

This shame has proved too much for me and, once I've finished this litre bottle of Caol Isla, it will be, "Farewell cruel world!" and, "Hello Paradise!" (What a shame I never changed my religion as I could have twenty-four virgins waiting for me, when I get to t'other side!! Mind you with my crap understanding of the s.g. of various oils it's doubtful if I'd know what to do with 'em) Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Real engineers disembowel themselves with a Bahco 8" (Thumb)

Fieldsy
15th May 2009, 14:54
The taking of "leads" is something most Engineer's enjoyed doing, did they not?

Ever faked 'em by rolling out with a milk bottle? Never seen it done, only heard about it - or is it an urban legend?

davetodd
15th May 2009, 15:55
The taking of "leads" is something most Engineer's enjoyed doing, did they not?

Indeed so chadburn.
Get the wire sample and measure the thickness variations with a micrometer.
Moore and Wright to be sure, don't know of any other make in the UK.
Then there's the scraping!
After applying your engineer's blue (the kind made with Prussian Blue and oil or grease, not the marking blue made with meths'.) get your homemade scaper (from an old file) and take out the high spots.
Then do it again,and again,and........!
Another use for lead wire was to help seal a bad flange face.

Regards
Dave

Ian J. Huckin
15th May 2009, 16:11
Real engineers disembowel themselves with a Bahco 8" (Thumb)

Ah...the 8" Bahco....

Maybe the deck oficers had a favorite pencil, or the cook a favorite can opener but the bond of pure emotion between an engineer and his 8" Bahco (lightly polished on the wire wheel) was never to be beaten. I've crawled the bilges for hours looking for mine....I just could not sleep without it.

Onto leads...they are plastic now!!! How sick can you get?

Don Matheson
15th May 2009, 16:15
The wonderful days of lead wire either in single or multiple strands are long gone gents. Was introduced to a "plastic" strip which is inserted into the bearing just as leads are. Bearing tightened up then removed as per normal. The container the plastic strip has a scale on the side and this is held against the flattened plastic and you decide which one is closest on the scale and that is your reading.
Then as my old boss Dave pointed out "theres the scraping" so the only part technology had played is to replace lead with plastic.
And you cant use the plastic on bad flange faces
Don

How are you doing Dave?

Satanic Mechanic
15th May 2009, 16:21
I'll never forget then emotional pain of when I had to 'let go' of my first 8" bahco shifter. Of course I went straight out and got a new one but it took ages to really establish a relationship with it, sure I had it lightly buffed, had my personal markings ground in and cleaned it every day but something was missing. We are very happy together now, but it took a while.

Thin shell bearing gents - no scraping required, it feels like cheating but the guilt does pass quickly

davetodd
15th May 2009, 16:46
Hi Don
"How are you doing Dave?"
OK thank's
Plastic lead wire?
What next I wonder.....brass magnets perhaps, or Virtual Engineers?

Philthechill
15th May 2009, 17:41
I'll never forget then emotional pain of when I had to 'let go' of my first 8" bahco shifter. Of course I went straight out and got a new one but it took ages to really establish a relationship with it, sure I had it lightly buffed, had my personal markings ground in and cleaned it every day but something was missing. We are very happy together now, but it took a while.

Thin shell bearing gents - no scraping required, it feels like cheating but the guilt does pass quickly Dear Satan (I trust you don't mind my abbreviating your first name!! You see MY full name is Philip but this, naturally, gets abbreviated to Phil. Ergo your full name is Satanic so all I've done is abbreviate it to Satan). Re. your saying (in a previous reply to my forthcoming demise!) "Real engineers disembowel themselves with an 8" Bahco". This gave me the distinct impression you weren't treating my "announcement" with enough seriousness! Indeed I may even have discerned that flippancy creeping in which I mentioned earlier! Shame on you Sir! If I wasn't engaged in trying to get 9 m.m. bullets to work in my .38" Smith & Wesson I'd challenge you to a duel with nothing but my 8" Bahco against any weapon of your choice!!!! (Incidentally I posted a photo of my much-loved, much-used Bahco on t'Gallery several months ago! Like me it is now enjoying retirement. Well, that is, only until I find-out how I can get these bloody 9 m.m. bullets to fit!!!!) Salaams, Phil(Hippy) P.S. Should you like to see my shifter, Satan, (first name again!!!) it's under the Engines & Ships Mechanics header. Just put "Shifting spanner" in the search box then sit back and pay homage!!!

Satanic Mechanic
15th May 2009, 17:50
Dear Satan (if you don't mind my using your first name!!). Re. your saying (in a previous reply to my forthcoming demise!) "Real engineers disembowel themselves with an 8" Bahco". This gave me the distinct impression you weren't treating my "announcement" with enough seriousness! Indeed I may even have discerned that flippancy creeping in which I mentioned earlier! Shame on you Sir! If I wasn't engaged in trying to get 9 m.m. bullets to work in my .38" Smith & Wesson I'd challenge you to a duel with nothing but my 8" Bahco against any weapon of your choice!!!! (Incidentally I posted a photo of my much-loved, much-used Bahco on t'Gallery several months ago! Like me it is now enjoying retirement. Well, that is, only until I find-out how I can get these bloody 9 m.m. bullets to fit!!!!) Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

(Jester) (Jester)

That would be my 10" bahco (it this sort of arms escalation that leads to all sorts of trouble)

With regards to your bullets - just wrap them in whammy and tap them in with handle of your shifter when the chiefs not looking

degsy
15th May 2009, 20:11
Not that I class myself as a Certifiable Engineer however I did enjoy taking leads and A**ing around scraping. There was nothing as fulfilling or as Spiritually moving as doing the Mains & Bottom ends on a F***ing big Ruston Genny in a 100 degrees + with the ER blower pointing in the other direction catching your thumbs and fingers on all the sharp bits leaning in through a crankcase door designed for the admission of a deformed midget of approximate weight 4stone unable to hear your sparring partner on the otherside of the genny because of the background noise and the sweat and oil running into your ear dropping the bolt that fitted into the oil hole in the crankshaft for turning out the bottom main bearing wich daft a**e had on his side of the genny but he has no idea where he put the magnet to fish the bloody thing out with and some stupid A***hole taps you on the shoulder while your leaning in the crankcase a person you summarily advise to F Off only to find out it is the CE on one of his infrequent ER inspections. Bump clearances were another delight.(Jester)

eldersuk
15th May 2009, 21:29
Sailed with one old Chief who insisted that we saved all the white metal scrapings in a box. As we had a run of surveys on a Doxford, these mounted up quite quickly. Later he used them mixed with a little graphite grease to pack the steam glands on Weirs feed pumps. Sounds crazy but they worked a treat and never marked the rod.
Some of those old boys knew a thing or two.

Derek

degsy
15th May 2009, 21:49
Sailed with one old Chief who insisted that we saved all the white metal scrapings in a box. As we had a run of surveys on a Doxford, these mounted up quite quickly. Later he used them mixed with a little graphite grease to pack the steam glands on Weirs feed pumps. Sounds crazy but they worked a treat and never marked the rod.
Some of those old boys knew a thing or two.

Derek

Never heard of that one, like you say the olduns knew the business. I have taken a wheelkey, a big wheelkey, to the valving on a Weirs and rigged an air line to it to get it going. I was advised by a CE if I did it again he would take both wheelkey and airline to me . I was young and highly strung at the time and had little patience and Mr Weirs p/p could be a pain in tharse at times (MAD)

spongebob
15th May 2009, 22:05
I have taken many leads, scraped many a bearing, packed many a gland, still have my 0 to 1" Moore & Wright micro, but what the hell is a BACHO.

Bob

degsy
15th May 2009, 22:12
I have taken many leads, scraped many a bearing, packed many a gland, still have my 0 to 1" Moore & Wright micro, but what the hell is a BACHO.

Bob

An adjustable spanner, handy piece of kit. I still have my 0 to 1" as well bought when I was 16 years old from the apprentice tool club into which we paid 1/6d a week. I will now sit and weep.

MARINEJOCKY
15th May 2009, 22:30
No such thing as an "adjustable spanner".

SHIFTER, please repeat after me SHIFTER. (*))

davetodd
15th May 2009, 22:36
Sailed with one old Chief who insisted that we saved all the white metal scrapings in a box. As we had a run of surveys on a Doxford, these mounted up quite quickly. Later he used them mixed with a little graphite grease to pack the steam glands on Weirs feed pumps. Sounds crazy but they worked a treat and never marked the rod.
Some of those old boys knew a thing or two.

Derek
Sounds like your "Old Chief" had some experience with "United States Metallic Packing" products.
(Used on Triple Ex. steam recips.)
Complicated assembly of many parts, some of which had "White Metal" insert sections.
These would fit closely onto the piston rod and make a very effective high pressure/temperature seal.
Dropped a few of the little springs down the bilges a few times.(EEK) when servicing the leaky sets.
Dave

billyboy
15th May 2009, 22:52
I have a wee "shifter" that lives in the pocket of my motorcycle jacket. Came in handy a time or two. Got a few people out of trouble that has. (0 to 3/4")

degsy
15th May 2009, 23:03
No such thing as an "adjustable spanner".

SHIFTER, please repeat after me SHIFTER. (*))

I stand corrected, as I stated previously I was never a Certifiable Engineer, and I apoligise for my bringing the proffesion into disrepute(Thumb) (Jester)

spongebob
15th May 2009, 23:04
OK Degsy, It is what we call a Crescent or Crestaloy , the best shifters of years ago.

Dave, I remember those metallic packings used on the piston and valve rods of the Loch Class Frigate triple expanders.
Half circle carriers with white metal inserts that were scraped to snugly fit the rod and held in place by either gaiter springs or thrust type. Vaguely remembered through a 53 year haze


Bob

davetodd
15th May 2009, 23:16
OK Degsy, It is what we call a Crescent or Crestaloy , the best shifters of years ago.

Dave, I remember those metallic packings used on the piston and valve rods of the Loch Class Frigate triple expanders.
Half circle carriers with white metal inserts that were scraped to snugly fit the rod and held in place by either gaiter springs or thrust type. Vaguely remembered through a 53 year haze


Bob
Bob
Although the haze is spreading I do remember that they had nothing to do with the USA.
They were in fact, made in Bradford Yorkshire.
Could remain tight even when the rod was scored. (Yorkshire built )
Dave

Philthechill
16th May 2009, 07:00
Bob
Although the haze is spreading I do remember that they had nothing to do with the USA.
They were in fact, made in Bradford Yorkshire.
Could remain tight even when the rod was scored. (Yorkshire built )
Dave We had Ashworth & Parker engines driving the generators/alternators on several Brock. ships and they were fitted with U.S. packing. Pain in the bum fitting them, what with all those fiddly little springs, but they were very efficient and so long as the greaser kept the rods well swabbed with cylinder oil would last many hundreds of hours of running.

Re. old hands knowing a thing or several. I learned a useful refrigeration tip, in my reincarnation as an Industrial Refrigeration Commissioning/Service Engineer after I'd come ashore, (Eeeee that sounds reet posh when I pad it out like that!!!!) from a guy who had been in refrigeration since Christ were a lad.

He told me that if you had an R.22 plant with an oil-return problem (i.e. oil-migration from compressor to system but it ain't coming back!) adding a small amount of R.12 would cure it.

I had occasion to try-out this advice on a system which I got called to. The C.E. of the factory told me that his fitters were having to put a lot of oil into the compressors, "which isn't coming back", He also said the temperatures in the cold store are slowly rising. (Not unsurprisingly being as the evaps would be half-full of oil!!!!).

I found the in-line filter on the oil-return pipe was blocked solid which, once cleared, started to return the oil but, Oh! so slowly!

Luckily there was a mixture of R.12 and R.22 systems on-site so I got a bottle of R.12 and put a couple of kilo's into the oil-filled R.22 system.

The results were immediate and I was soon draining oil from the running compressor until it was clear the excess oil had all come back. The effect on the cold-store was obvious too as from -19C it was soon down to -20C and before I left site some four hours later it was down to -24C.

The C.E. was mightily impressed and asked what I'd done. However I only told him about the blocked in-line filter as I didn't want his blokes to start whopping R.12, willy-nilly, into other systems which may suffer a similar oil-return problem some time in the future.

Unfortunately that "Top Tip" is now about as much use as an a**e-pocket in a vest as R.12 has long been consigned to the scrap-heap because it was considered one of the worst offenders in the "hole-in-the-ozone-layer" panic (what happened to THAT particular, "death is waiting us all as the hole will get bigger and bigger until it covers Earth and then we've had it!!" particular story from the doom-and-gloom hair-shirt brigade!!!!) of the late '80's early '90's and R.22 is set to follow it soon. Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

spongebob
16th May 2009, 08:39
LEADS

Talking of taking leads reminds me of the time I joined my first ship with the Union Co NZ, a small collier named “Kaitangata”. She was powered by two British polar engines similar to those used on larger ships as generators. I joined as rookie fourth engineer to find that the just joined second and third engineers were old dockyard apprentices and mates of mine while the young chief was on his second trip and having had a few run ins with the previous engineers they had signed off.
We sailed from Auckland within an hour of joining, all unfamiliar with the engines and engine room but the chief was able to fill us in on a few of the peculiarities, the major one being that the main engine driven lube oil circulating gear pumps were unable to maintain minimum pressure and that it was necessary to run the independent standby circulating pump for the voyage.
Four days later we tied up in the South Island port of Westport to load coal and immediately set about stripping down each engine driven pump looking for faults but none were found, all the clearances were within bounds and apart from replacing a worn bush we had no other answers.
There was a unit due for overhaul so we routinely pulled the piston, cleaned every thing up and on refitting we had to search the engine room and store for lead wire to check the bottom end. This was eventually found looking like it had been tucked away for some time and after laying four rows in the bottom half and pulling it up we were amazed to drop it again and find the wire untouched, not a skerrick of flattening, so we twisted two strands together to get a fatter wire but with the same result and the conclusion was that the bearing had a massive clearance. A look at the carbon blackened bearing surface on the bottom half confirmed that the two stroke engine had had all the wear on the top half of the bearing to result in the huge clearance.
Out with a few shims until we arrived at a reasonable clearance and on to the next bearing until all were completed on one engine. The deck then doubled up on the lines and we test ran the engine long enough to prove that the engine pump could handle the job without the standby pump even at low speed. This had taken three of us the whole weekend and at overtime rates and as the bar conditions (That is the sand bar at the Buller river mouth not the local pub) were going to stop us sailing for the next day or two we pressed on with the other engine until all was finished and we had an uneventful passage home.
I think that the colliers were not a very favoured vessel what with dirty cargo and unexciting ports of call so crew changes and transfers were frequent so maintenance was below par but we three from the dockyard were amazed that no one had taken leads since Adam with the now obvious results.
The chief was pleased to the extent that he allowed us to flog up the overtime hours a bit and I arrived back in Auckland just before Christmas to pay off with more money than I had ever had in my life before.

Bob

Don Matheson
16th May 2009, 09:59
Bob
Glad to see that British Polar earned you so much money. Worked with them for a while and went out to one job in Goa as gaffer to an engine which had had a catastrophic fire. One of the jobs was of course to inspect ALL the bearings on the 12 cyl. engine. Bottom ends we used the rope trick to get the bearings in and out and on one bearing I am having trouble getting the bearing back in. Shouting through to the fitter on the other rope had no effect so tied off the rope and went round to find him fast asleep on the plates still holding the rope tight.
Rebuilding the engine we were running the water in when all the cylinder heads started to leak. These had been pressure tested by the shipyard and they explained that once I had witnessed and signed off the heads as being tested they had opened them to check they were clean inside. More days in Goa, what a terrible thing to happen.
Good engines though if properly looked after, or not as in your case.
Don

chadburn
16th May 2009, 14:31
Indeed so chadburn.
Get the wire sample and measure the thickness variations with a micrometer.
Moore and Wright to be sure, don't know of any other make in the UK.
Then there's the scraping!
After applying your engineer's blue (the kind made with Prussian Blue and oil or grease, not the marking blue made with meths'.) get your homemade scaper (from an old file) and take out the high spots.
Then do it again,and again,and........!
Another use for lead wire was to help seal a bad flange face.

Regards
Dave

There was indeed only one type of micrometer worth it's weight in gold, the Moore & Wright, as I indicated in the photosection I enjoyed bearing scraping (for some odd reason), not forgetting to wash the "wings" away. my "hockey stick" bearing scaper (which I still have) was bought from a Surplus Store complete with arrow marking, your comments on the United States Metallic Packing were spot on, and those bloody springs, but as you say once fitted correctly they were a great packing medium.
I am not a Saint by any means but I can say I have never "cheated" by rolling leads with a Milk Bottle although as someone else indicated there were some awkward Crankcases that were obviously built for Midgets. Plastic type Lead, the first time I heard of it was when they built our Conservatory when the Builder asked me what type of "Lead" I wanted for the joint, Plastic or Real, you can guess which I elected to be fitted!!(Thumb)

MARINEJOCKY
16th May 2009, 18:06
I posted before about joining the Humbolt, a Houlders Gas Boat with a MAN KZ engine as a first trip 2/E.

This ship was a regular on a Le Havre / Kiel Canal / Riga round trip for years before I joined. Due to the number of standby hours and the alarms going off some idiot decided to fit a switch at the switchboard to silence and indeed by-pass all safeties. When leaving Le Havre the ship went into the locks and it was decided to stay there for about 4 hours due to the fog in the Channel.

This switch was used and everything was shut down. They set off witht the engine running with no oil or cooling pumps running and I was told it last for 20 minutes before the major failure.

It was 50 / 50 to either scrap the ship or repair the engine. All of the bearings had to be machined in place and new bearings made.

I joined and had about 2 hours experience of "trying" to scrape a bearing in at the college so you can imagine how I felt after joining and finding out how bad things were.

Thankfully the company sent some Dutch fitters on who showed me how to do things and gave me two half moon shaped scrapers and I certainly got the hang of them and spent many hours scraping the bearings that had been made over side to fit various sized pins.

Each time we stopped the engine we went into the crank case and checked for white metal coming out of the bearings and when we did not find any we got more worried and opened them up checked for cracks which occured alot due to the thickness of the white metal and then we also took leads.

7 cylinder MAN, stopping the engine at least every second day, nearly 4 months onboard counted up to alot of bearing work.

My sense of acheivement was complete when I managed to get the same cross hatch marks as those Dutch fitters who taught me.

Ian J. Huckin
17th May 2009, 05:26
No such thing as an "adjustable spanner".

SHIFTER, please repeat after me SHIFTER. (*))

To the Germans it is an "Englander Schpanner"!!!

stein
17th May 2009, 10:25
In my 1908 edition of Paasch's marine dictionary "From Keel to Truck" there is among all the spanners the "Shifting Spanner," this is called Verstellbarer Schraubenschlüssel in German, which translates as adjustable spanner. In Norwegian we have "Skiftnøkkel" adjustable spanner, contrasting with the nonadjustable "Fastnøkkel." The French shifter is Clef à mâchoires mobiles, "mâchoires" being "jaws," which in a shifting spanner is moveable. Now please tell a lowly deckie how you discern it from a Monkey Spanner (Clef Anglais in French, Llave Inglesa in Spanish, Chiave Inglese in Italian but no mention of the English in the German term Universal Schraubenschlüssel)? Regards, Stein.

Frank P
17th May 2009, 11:15
In the 1980's I worked in Germany for quite a few years and as Ian says the German "nick name" for an adjustable spanner was " Englander" or "Englischer schlüssel", and from what I remember they did not like to use them very much, they preferred to use a spanner of the correct size.

Cheers Frank

Satanic Mechanic
17th May 2009, 12:18
In the 1980's I worked in Germany for quite a few years and as Ian says the German "nick name" for an adjustable spanner was " Englander" or "Englischer schlüssel", and from what I remember they did not like to use them very much, they preferred to use a spanner of the correct size.

Cheers Frank

The thing about shifters and indeed any multipurpose tool is knowing when NOT to use them. Shifters are great for tweeking and nipping up when your going round the job. They are not for dismantling machinery etc.

davetodd
17th May 2009, 14:19
In my 1908 edition of Paasch's marine dictionary "From Keel to Truck" there is among all the spanners the "Shifting Spanner," this is called Verstellbarer Schraubenschlüssel in German, which translates as adjustable spanner. In Norwegian we have "Skiftnøkkel" adjustable spanner, contrasting with the nonadjustable "Fastnøkkel." The French shifter is Clef à mâchoires mobiles, "mâchoires" being "jaws," which in a shifting spanner is moveable. Now please tell a lowly deckie how you discern it from a Monkey Spanner (Clef Anglais in French, Llave Inglesa in Spanish, Chiave Inglese in Italian but no mention of the English in the German term Universal Schraubenschlüssel)? Regards, Stein.
Monkey spanner/Monkey wrench.
Take your pick Stein.
A spanner or wrench to suit "many" nuts!
Although frowned upon by the purists, they have saved the day in many situations when the "proper", "complete" toolkit is not ready to hand.
I have used all of those represented in the image in different tight corners at different times and would not relish a voyage without one or two!(Thumb)

K urgess
17th May 2009, 16:14
Can't beat a King Dick! (Thumb)
I appear to have mislaid a couple of BAHCOs.
The pipe wrenches have seen a bit of use over the years.
Computers weren't always the size they are now. [=P]

stein
17th May 2009, 16:45
I thought maybe the middle photo was spanners - sorry, shifters, and the right one wrenches. You do anyway seem well equipped, I've only got two and are happy to find one. Regards, Stein.

K urgess
17th May 2009, 16:55
Not just mine, Stein.
My father was a maintenance engineer in a foundry so I inherited about 50% of the BAHCOs (Shifters). The pipe wrenches were required when I needed to dismantle a lot of cast-iron pre-war plumbing.
The left one is as you can see here (http://www.rollsbentleyspares.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&category_id=36&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=1561&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53) is not a cheap item and always an "adjustable spanner". Although mine is a pre-war example.
Regards
Kris

stein
17th May 2009, 17:07
A RR shifting spanner, not bad. Somehow I believe I've seen the type before... wouldn't have known its value.
I guess the firm Bahco must own the patent on the angle-head worm-adjustable one, or have they just cornered the market? Maybe Bahco is an English firm and that explains the name "Englishman" on the continent? Regards, Stein.

K urgess
17th May 2009, 17:12
King Dick now do "Bahco" type angle headed shifters as do several other companies.
I recently saw a commercial on British TV for a self-adjusting shifter being sold by one of the DIY stores.
http://www.toolsandpartsdirect.co.uk/section_product.asp?PRODUCT_ID=484&SECTION_ID=1&gclid=CPfbsPfew5oCFRSfnAodnn1vrw
or
http://www.expertverdict.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product1_20051_-1_21430_11051
Cheers
Kris

MARINEJOCKY
17th May 2009, 17:55
shifter, torch and a rag, what more was required, oh yeah, the hammer !

davetodd
17th May 2009, 19:05
shifter, torch and a rag, what more was required, oh yeah, the hammer !
And don't forget the wheel key(Thumb)

steviej
17th May 2009, 21:52
I remember I picked up a fish tail Bacho. The fish tail had two types of serrations on the inner sides of the tail to grip the nut. Mind you I also remember the damage the shifter used to do to do to the hexagonal nuts,(Cloud)

spongebob
18th May 2009, 08:07
Kris, you have a formidable arsenal of spanners there, especially for a Radio Officer, and you are well prepared to fix or otherwise affect anything.
Your Photo solves the problem of the Bacho spanner identification and I can confirm that it is what we call a “Crescent” down under and as manufactured by the Crescent Tool Co of James Town NY since at least the early 1920’s. I can vouch for this as I have a 12” Crescent that dates from my father’s arrival in NZ around that time and he bought the spanner for his essential tool kit. I have also still got his Crescent “Crestaloy” side cutter pliers and to this day there is not any sign of a gap in the wire cutting jaws which supports the maker’s reputation. Crescent also make a fencing plier, well used in NZ and Australia by fencing contractors as it functions as a 8 gauge wire cutter, a staple hammer, a puller and a pre tensioner for the wire strands.
Actually the Crescent/Bacho type adjustable spanner was invented as far back as 1842 by Englishman Richard Clyburn and was referred to as an “English Key.” spanner.

Your pipe wrenches shown are generally called by the generic name of “Stilsons” here.

As for the “King Dick” you used to get a small one of those with your BSA motorcycle.

Going back to the good old apprentice days, using a shifter instead of a fixed jaw open ender or ring spanner on a nut was likely to fetch you a clip around the ear from the fitter and similarly using a wheel spanner was considered bad taste unless there was a definite excuse to do so

Sorry about all that but the talk of Bachos made me feel left out.
Anyway how did those indicator cards get to this, we have almost stripped down a main engine and put it together again so far.

Bob

Satanic Mechanic
18th May 2009, 08:21
Kris, you have a formidable arsenal of spanners there, especially for a Radio Officer, and you are well prepared to fix or otherwise affect anything.
Your Photo solves the problem of the Bacho spanner identification and I can confirm that it is what we call a “Crescent” down under and as manufactured by the Crescent Tool Co of James Town NY since at least the early 1920’s. I can vouch for this as I have a 12” Crescent that dates from my father’s arrival in NZ around that time and he bought the spanner for his essential tool kit. I have also still got his Crescent “Crestaloy” side cutter pliers and to this day there is not any sign of a gap in the wire cutting jaws which supports the maker’s reputation. Crescent also make a fencing plier, well used in NZ and Australia by fencing contractors as it functions as a 8 gauge wire cutter, a staple hammer, a puller and a pre tensioner for the wire strands.
Actually the Crescent/Bacho type adjustable spanner was invented as far back as 1842 by Englishman Richard Clyburn and was referred to as an “English Key.” spanner.

Your pipe wrenches shown are generally called by the generic name of “Stilsons” here.

As for the “King Dick” you used to get a small one of those with your BSA motorcycle.

Going back to the good old apprentice days, using a shifter instead of a fixed jaw open ender or ring spanner on a nut was likely to fetch you a clip around the ear from the fitter and similarly using a wheel spanner was considered bad taste unless there was a definite excuse to do so

Sorry about all that but the talk of Bachos made me feel left out.
Anyway how did those indicator cards get to this, we have almost stripped down a main engine and put it together again so far.

Bob

Yup Stillsons or Stilly's
Haven't seen King Dick for a while - used to be all the really big spanners
I still confiscate shifters from cadets, like I say its knowing when not to use them.
Wheel keys are allowed when required - using them to close a valve is viewed with extreme suspicion.

How do you think it got here - someone asked a group of Engineers a technical question - its just asking for it

stein
18th May 2009, 08:22
Bob: "Actually the Crescent/Bacho type adjustable spanner was invented as far back as 1842 by Englishman Richard Clyburn and was referred to as an “English Key.” spanner." So that's the origin of the "English" then.

Dave Todd: "And don't forget the wheel key(Thumb)." I googled that word, and found that wheel key is either part of a fishing rod reel, or a car key with decorative wheels attached by a ring. I leafed through many pages without finding a third alternative, so what is it? We have what we call an "Umbraco Key" in Norway, a positive (male) spanner for negative nuts and bolts, could this be it? Regards, Stein.

Satanic Mechanic
18th May 2009, 08:27
It says on Bahco shifters that they were invented by Bahco
http://www.bahco.com/asp/pubs/index.asp?lngLevel=0&lngStructureID=1219&lngMenuID=1255

Stein - here you go - I am sure you will recognise them

http://www.carltsoe.com/produkter.asp?vis=kategori&id=15

stein
18th May 2009, 08:58
Thanks. Ventilnökkel - valve key, wheel key more naturally when viewing this photo: http://www.wheelspanner.co.uk/Index%20Norway.htm Regards, Stein.

spongebob
18th May 2009, 09:04
Satanic Mechanic, You sketches of wheel spanners remind me of an Irish Chief Petty Officer Stoker serving in the RNZNavy who used to train young new entrant Ordinary Stokers in the early fifties and he used to brandish a 207EX style wheel spanner in lieu of a pointer or cane.
It was made of brass and highly polished, I think that any wayward pupils may have had to apply the brasso for an hour or two if they stepped out of line.
He used to whirl and twirl it on the end of his finger with a menacing effect, reminded me of Humphrey Bogart as Captain Caine in the film Caine Mutiny when he constantly clacked his balls ( ball bearings that is) in the palm of his hand.

Bob

Philthechill
18th May 2009, 17:57
On the ACL ships "Atlantic Causeway" and "Conveyor" we collected 850 brand-new Volvo's, from Gothenburg, every trip to take to New York.

On one of the very early trips one of the mechanics discovered that each Volvo had a small tool-kit in the boot ("trunk", for our U.S. brethren) and, in the tool-kit, was a 6" Bahco!!

Needless to say it wasn't long before all hands soon had a brand-new 6" Bahco sticking out of the back pocket of their boiler-suits!

However for reasons unknown the Bahco shifters were withdrawn from the tool-kits and a 6" Japanese shifter going under the name of "New Lobster" (Really!!!!!) was substituted. They were passable but nowhere near as good as the Bahco's. Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Philthechill
18th May 2009, 18:53
When I came ashore in 1975 I got a job at Drax power-station and, needless to say, my trusty shifter went with me.

One day my fellow shift-fitters and me were having a yarn at smoko and someone asked me about me always having my shifter in my ruler-pocket of my boiler-suit. I said I'd had it presented to me on my very first ship, (by 2nd Eng "Big Jake" Donnelly) and it was like a friend to me. I then went on to explain that every sea-going engineer always carried a shifter, (especially on older steam-ships with crappy Weirs HP 'vaps on them which could barely keep-up with water consumption) which would be used for many tasks from nipping-up glands (see ref to Weirs 'vaps!!!) to giving the valve-chest on a Weirs pump a swift smack to get a reluctant shuttle to move!

One night-shift an apprentice, and I, were doing a job above an empty coal-bunker and he asked if he could borrow my shifter. "Don't drop it or I'll have your balls for sweetbreads!", I mildly informed him.

10 seconds later and I heard a muffled "Oh f**k!" and the sound of my precious shifter hitting the bottom of the coal-bunker some 30' below us!!!

"You dozey pillock!", I berated him, "I've had that shifter Man & Boy and we're going to get it back somehow!!"

One of the items I had in my tool-bag was a very powerful magnet which Frank Dunn (Sparks on "Conveyor") had given me, which I believe was from the Magnetron of a radar (does that sound right you sparkies?) so I told the apprentice to get to the stores and get a ball of string (fortunately made from nylon!!). In the mean time I took the blade out of my hack-saw and cut through a couple of bars on the walk-way.

The apprentice returned with the ball of string, I attached the magnet and lowered it down to my shifter which was lying on the bottom of the bunker. However, unbeknownst to me, the bunker was constructed from steel (Quite what I thought it was constructed from I'm not sure! Maybe I thought it was concrete!) and, as the magnet got near the bottom, it suddenly veered off-course and with a "clang" attached itself to the steel side!!!

Like I said it was quite a powerful magnet and try as I might it would not detach itself (that's where the "fortunately made from nylon" was so important!!!). However the bunker-sides were very smooth, with all the thousands of tons of coal which had slid down them over the years, and I was able to slide the magnet up the bunker 'til I got it to the top. I then hacksawed another couple of bars out of the walkway and retrieved the magnet.

Armed with the knowledge that the bunker sides were steel I very carefully lowered the magnet down again, captured the shifter and brought it back up.

All this palaver had taken about two-and-a-half hours (no wonder electricity prices were so high------no maintenance ever got done!!!!) and it had got round to "dinner-time" (01.00).

I told the shift foreman about our "fishing expedition" and he said, "When you've finished your break Phil I want to show you something!"

After break he took me up to the coal-feeder level, which was where the bottom of the bunkers were. There, at the bottom of the bunker, was an access-door, which, when opened, was where my shifter had landed!! So, if I'd known that little gem of info I could have retrieved the shifter five minutes after it had been dropped, no CEGB property would have been vandalised (the four half-inch bars I removed from the walkway-----I bet there are people now, thirty-four years later, look at those gaps and wonder what they're for!!) and two-and-a-half hours of valuable maintenance-time not lost!!!!

If "The Simpsons" had been made then it would have been a classic "D'oh!" moment.

However the apprentice had told everyone about the moment he'd dropped my precious shifter and how, after my initial outburst of invective, I'd uttered the immortal words, "I've had that shifter Man & Boy" so, ever after, if someone wanted to borrow the Bahco they would say, "Phil! Can I borrow The Man & Boy".

Probably the non-engineers reading this yarn will be sitting shaking their heads and wondering how anyone could get so attached to a simple thing like a Bahco shifter-------------but all the engineers will know exactly what I mean!! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

surfaceblow
18th May 2009, 19:01
There are also Channel Locks pliers, slip joint pliers also called Pelican Pliers by many. I sailed with a Chief that would only order the largest size so the Engineers would not carry them around in their back pockets. This Chief would also call Channel Locks the Automatic Knurling Tool.

http://www.channellock.com/

Satanic Mechanic
18th May 2009, 19:43
There are also Channel Locks pliers, slip joint pliers also called Pelican Pliers by many. I sailed with a Chief that would only order the largest size so the Engineers would not carry them around in their back pockets. This Chief would also call Channel Locks the Automatic Knurling Tool.

http://www.channellock.com/

SB

You'll know doubt be intrigued to learn that thats a 'yankee'

And these are 'footprints' made by Footprint - oddly enough

http://www.footprint-tools.co.uk/Products/wrenches-products.htm#1

davetodd
18th May 2009, 19:46
And Water Pump Pliers, and Left-handed wheelkeys and Monday hammers and...........

Satanic Mechanic
18th May 2009, 19:48
ooh a Monday hammer - not heard that term for a while

I wonder if Chris Isaacs checks by this thread from time to time

Pat Kennedy
18th May 2009, 19:57
ooh a Monday hammer - not heard that term for a while

I wonder if Chris Isaacs checks by this thread from time to time

My brother Jimmy who was a marine engineer, turned up one day at our mother's house to repair her grandfather clock.
He dumped his tool bag on the floor and the first thing that tumbled out was a Monday hammer followed by a 12" shifter.
My mum told him to leave the clock, she would get a proper clock repairer.
Pat(Thumb)

K urgess
18th May 2009, 20:05
Going back to indicator cards for a change.
Someone said that the items in the attached were of some use with regard to them.
Calculations for IHP? (?HUH)

I have no idea why I've got these. I think I found them in the bottom of a box from auction or something.

Duncan112
18th May 2009, 20:32
Going back to indicator cards for a change.
Someone said that the items in the attached were of some use with regard to them.
Calculations for IHP? (?HUH)

I have no idea why I've got these. I think I found them in the bottom of a box from auction or something.

Planimeters used to measure the area within the diagram, mount the diagram on a board and put the round base of the planimeter somewhere close to the diagram, so the needle on the arm can trace the diagram. Set the scale to zero and mark a starting point on the diagram. Trace the diagram in a clockwise direction and when the starting point is reached note the dial reading, this is the area of the diagram. (Best to do this a few times and take the average). Divide the area by the length of the diagram and this will give you the mean height, multiply this by the indicator spring constant and you will have the mean pressure.

Mean pressure multiplied by the stroke length multiplied by the piston area multiplied by the number of strokes per minute divided by 60 will give you the power for that cylinder.

Repeat for each cylinder and you will have the engine power.

Doxfords used to supply a celluloid scale that measured the diagonal width of the card and enabled a good approximation of the power to be obtained from a card without resorting to the planimeter which was a bit of a pain if you were rolling or had had a good sesh the night before. (Anyone got one of the Doxford celluloids?)

Duncan

spongebob
18th May 2009, 21:23
Goodness gracious Kris, you must have a virtual museum at your home, what with brass cased tank thermometers, planimeters, Bacho shifters, King Dicks, Monkey wrenches and what ever might come next.
Perhaps you are like me, what ever it is I say "I'll hang on to this, it might come in handy one day"
Alas the unrepairable toasters and kettles, the printers that are cheaper than a replacement ink cartridge and computers with nary a nut that you can put a shifter to all lead to the frustration of not being able fire these pearls of a life time into action.
Even my collection of British standard Whitworth spanners lay entombed in a tool box and will probably never again get the opportunity to wrap themselves around a truly British nut.
Obsolescence is a saddening phenomena as the years advance but one recent ray of sunshine came with our purchase of a Sunbeam four slice pop up toaster with a ten year return to factory guarantee on the replacement elements.
It cost more than four or five of the unrepairable ones but you at least get the satisfaction that your pop up is going to pop up for some time yet which is reassuring, to say the least, to an older man like me!

Duncan112
18th May 2009, 21:43
Few indicators for sale on e-bay - this is the best photograph - wish I had liberated one as most ships I was on were down by the head with ones that had been broken (usually just needed a good clean and the linkage fettling.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DOBBIE-McINNES-DESIGN-NUMBER-1-ENGINE-INDICATOR_W0QQitemZ110390921811QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_Collectables_Scientific_MJ?hash=item11039092181 1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

K urgess
18th May 2009, 21:55
Can't have enough spanners, Bob. (Thumb)
BA, AF, Whitworth, etc. Never know when you're going to need 'em.
I must admit that it's gotten out of hand.
So I'm slowly reducing it and trying to avoid the temptation of the local auction house.
Since the only professional qualifications I ever bothered to get are obsolete I suppose you can say the same for me. [=P]

Satanic Mechanic
19th May 2009, 13:01
Can't have enough spanners, Bob. (Thumb)
BA, AF, Whitworth, etc. Never know when you're going to need 'em.
I must admit that it's gotten out of hand.
So I'm slowly reducing it and trying to avoid the temptation of the local auction house.
Since the only professional qualifications I ever bothered to get are obsolete I suppose you can say the same for me. [=P]

Hi it's Alice from next door, just wondering - do you have a planimeter I could borrow? ;)

spongebob
19th May 2009, 17:16
No, but I have an odd-leg puller that you could borrow, but not for long, I may need it some day

davetodd
19th May 2009, 17:52
No, but I have an odd-leg puller that you could borrow, but not for long, I may need it some day

Would that be a Sykes-Picavant then Bob?
They used to come with a long rest.
Regards
Dave

eldersuk
20th May 2009, 23:51
Thanks to #106 I have just spent a pleasant half hour browsing the Bahco catalogue.
I have heard it said that when engineers go to the toilet they take a tool catalogue to read, whereas everyone else takes a girlie mag.

Derek

spongebob
21st May 2009, 00:12
They say that reading in the toilet is a road to constipation Derek so concentrate on what you are there to do or you may need to use an "easyout".

Bob

Ian J. Huckin
21st May 2009, 06:38
They say that reading in the toilet is a road to constipation Derek so concentrate on what you are there to do or you may need to use an "easyout".

Bob

Nah, I hear Derek is a mathmatician so he will work it out with a pencil!!!!

eldersuk
21st May 2009, 23:03
Rather that than a packing screw!

Derek





They say that reading in the toilet is a road to constipation Derek so concentrate on what you are there to do or you may need to use an "easyout".

Bob

Satanic Mechanic
23rd May 2009, 10:24
They say that reading in the toilet is a road to constipation Derek so concentrate on what you are there to do or you may need to use an "easyout".

Bob

One of my mates who was quite prone to reading war and peace in the toilet - was rather wonderfully told by his doctor

"Your a**e is now on a timer"

K urgess
23rd May 2009, 20:21
Let's keep the toilet humour out on deck in stormy weather please, Gentleman.

spongebob
23rd May 2009, 21:47
Excuse me Sir, my post was purely medical advice, maybe Pompeyfan can back me up.
It was the others that made it rude

David Ambrose
24th June 2009, 12:49
Wasn't the equation for IHP something like PmALE/33000, where Pm is the MEP, A the area of the piston, L the length of the stroke, and E the number of power strokes per minute? Sad, really.

Chris Isaac
24th June 2009, 13:00
ooh a Monday hammer - not heard that term for a while

I wonder if Chris Isaacs checks by this thread from time to time

I do actually..... It started to go over my head after about 6 posts, since then I have blessed the day when I decided to become a deck officer, nothing at all against engineers, many of which I was great friends with..... but I never realised you could all be so anal!
[=P]

Satanic Mechanic
24th June 2009, 13:08
I do actually..... It started to go over my head after about 6 posts, since then I have blessed the day when I decided to become a deck officer, nothing at all against engineers, many of which I was great friends with..... but I never realised you could all be so anal!
[=P]

"Some of my best friends are Engineers" (Jester) (Jester)

Come on Chris - you should have known better than to ask us an engineering question(Hippy)

Chris Isaac
24th June 2009, 14:52
I know I know, I blame myself entirely!