Lub. oil!

Philthechill
14th June 2009, 16:59
We've all been involved in setting-up/running/cleaning purifiers in connection with lub oil (and fuel-oil, of course) and had a good old moan at the muck and filth involved but I, for one, never cease to marvel at this incredible fluid.

I've just been watching MotoGp on TV (and what a cracking race it was too!!!) and got to thinking about the conditions inside the engines, of the bikes, and, once again (I can hear you all now saying, "Get a life!!") thought about how the oil has to lubricate, and cool, for lap, after lap, after lap, without losing its ability to do both these essential services.

These engines, which are four-strokes, are revving up to 18,000 r.p.m., produce around 250 b.h.p. (from 800 c.c.), propel bike and rider up to 220 m.p.h. and rarely, if ever, suffer seizures. All protected by about a gallon of oil. The shearing stresses (alone) on the oil must be absolutely immense but it never ceases to do its job.

Same as the oil in a 40,000 s.h.p. diesel! It has an equally demanding job as in a high-performance race-engine but at slower revs!!!!!

You know how you get "celebrities" who, when they're asked, "What was the best thing you learned from your Mother/Father?", always come out with some crap like, "My Dad/Mum (delete what's not applicable) always told me, you can achieve whatever you want in life, all it takes is hard work!" (But not if you've got a face like a well-smacked a**e!!!), or some other banality.

MY Dad told me, "The cheapest mechanic is a gallon of oil!" and I reckon he was right!! I always put the best oil in my car engine that I can get!!!

Lub-Oil------------where would we be without it?

I'll go and take my tablets now-----------------honest!!!! Quite what brought this outburst on I'm stuffed if I know!! Salaams, Phil

Satanic Mechanic
14th June 2009, 18:01
Tis good stuff for sure. Keep it clean, send for analysis frequently.

The new synthetics are quite remarkable in certain situations

spongebob
15th June 2009, 11:55
Phil, I sailed with a second engineer who was almost paranoid about the state of the engine room to the extent that it looked like an ice cream parlour. He even went to the extent of allowing the motormen to book a bit of overtime while on watch if they kept up the soo gee and painting etc.
When it came to lube oil cleanliness he really went overboard to ensure that it remained as clean as possible. Even when we were in port at night and on shore power the purifier would be left running on a small lube oil header tank with an out flow heater until it was the colour of golden syrup before returning it to the DB tank and lifting up another batch until it was all as clean as new.
Of course it showed, open up the crankcase and see just a transparent film on the red enamel in stead of that blackened mess, it took about nine months of attention but one done it was no trouble to keep up.
I have never forgotten his fuss and the upside results and to this day I maintain that very frequent oil and filter changes are cheap and the essence of longer engine life in my motor car .


Bob

GWB
15th June 2009, 14:36
When leaving the sea and coming ashore I went into machine tool industry and have fixed more machines with good a lubrication oil than using tools. Found it was also important to use the correct oil and keep up to date with developments and additives now used in lubrication.

GWB

spongebob
16th June 2009, 08:20
The quality of lube oil

Talking about the quality of lube oil or rather the lack of it reminds me of my childhood during the war when petrol was rationed and all manner of tricks were used to improve mileage.
A friend of my father operated an American Ford 1928 Model A saloon that had the petrol tank on the bulkhead above the engine and gravity feed to the carburetor. At the carburetor inlet there was a needle valve that had an extension spindle up the steering column to enable the fuel/ air mixture to be altered from within the cab and the drill was to start up with a relatively rich mixture and when the engine got hot and the vehicle was at cruising speed the mixture was leaned up to greatly improve the MPG.
Uncle Henry went one step further and fitted a small auxiliary tank under the bonnet containing diesel that was more readily available and with a similar controlling needle valve leading up the steering column so that he could start off on petrol, warm up and gradually dilute the petrol to the engine with a portion of diesel thus getting even more mileage.
I can remember looking out the back window and calling out when the exhaust started smoking so he could ease back a bit but the end result on one Sunday trip to the beach was to produce so many fumes that the four kids in the car were sick.
It worked to some extent but then he found that his oil level was gaining rather than reducing as the un burnt diesel leaked down past the piston rings into the sump. The project was abandoned.

There was another Uncle Henry story with the same old car. He had gone up to the top of NZ’s Ninety mile beach with a fishing party and the laden car had burnt a lot of lube oil in the process. He fretted about the journey back and as luck would have it he had a quart Agee jar of fresh cream from the farm which he should of dropped off to his mother on the way up so rather than a dry sump in went the cream and the journey home was without any drama.
He took the sump off the next day to find dirty buttermilk in the bottom and a large amount of ebony butter smeared around the crankcase but no damage to the bearings. A quick wash down saw the Model A back on the road as reliable as ever..

NOT the sort of thing to try with Phil’s high speed engine though!

Bob

NINJA
16th June 2009, 10:26
Valentino Rossi is still No1.

chadburn
16th June 2009, 11:18
Bob J, what ship were you on with the "fussy Chief" as I have alway's had a "thing" about clean Lub oil which is the lifeblood of any engine, today I only use fully synthetics in the Family Cars as it is the best in my view although Mobil 1 is expensive it is worth it even though I still long for the smell of the "Veggy" Castrol R. Has Rossi ever raced I.O.M.?

Satanic Mechanic
16th June 2009, 14:42
MMMMmmmmmmmm - Castrol R (Thumb)

Philthechill
16th June 2009, 15:45
Bob J, what ship were you on with the "fussy Chief" as I have alway's had a "thing" about clean Lub oil which is the lifeblood of any engine, today I only use fully synthetics in the Family Cars as it is the best in my view although Mobil 1 is expensive it is worth it even though I still long for the smell of the "Veggy" Castrol R. Has Rossi ever raced I.O.M.? Valentino Rossi (probably go down in motor-cycle racing history as one of the greats, if not THE greatest of all time) is a short-circuit racer who has never raced on the I.O.M.

Last Sunday he produced one of the most stunning wins in his incredible career! The final lap of the Spanish MotoGp race, (when the lead changed about seven times between him and Jorge Lorenzo), was absolutely mesmerising and when one realises that, on the straight, these two blokes were neck-and-neck at 200+ m.p.h. and were leaving their braking 'til the last possible nano-second on tyres which were absolutely knackered it brings into perspective what a sheltered life the F.1 blokes lead!

They reckon that in F.1 racing it's 80% car and 20% driver. I would think that it's probably the other way round with MotoGp!!!

I would urge anyone, who has access to Eurosport, to give the MotoGp Series a coat of looking at--------------you won't be disappointed! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Satanic Mechanic
16th June 2009, 15:50
I watched it last night Phil at one point on the last lap Rossi actually put his foot down(EEK) to steady the bike going into a corner - stunning stunning stuff

david freeman
16th June 2009, 16:13
During my time at Palmers Hebburn (Alternative scheme) I remember some of the tanker company motor ships coming in for drydock. When the main Doxford B&W crankcase where opened up the surfaces where yukie, and the main and bottm end bearings all though funtional where mechanically shot to pieces. A reacation to the tankers/Oil company ships being run drydock-drydock, with no change of oil only top ups, and no bearing maintenace. I do not know how cost effective this was? BUt Ithought the liner and box boat companies ships engines where always in better condition, and easier to work in the crankcase.

BlythSpirit
16th June 2009, 16:25
When I teach nowadays I always go on about the most importance attribute of lube oil - its hydraulic strength. when the trainees get to see a 200 ton electric power generator rotor spinning round at 3,000rpm, being kept aloft by a film of lube oil,it is easy to impress on them the importance of keeping the golden syrup clean and cool!

NINJA
16th June 2009, 17:53
The quality of the Lub Oil can only be maintained though if you have good filtration.

gordy
16th June 2009, 17:56
Not only is V. Rossi one of the greatest ever racers, he is a true sportsman, congratulating the young Lorenzo on his also brilliant riding in that wonderful Motogp at Barcelona.
Rossi was at the IOM TT this year, but pronounced it too dangerous for his liking!
Re. bike lub oil, a young bike rider on the Yamaha web site I frequent, told me his dad, (a former British Army Master Mechanic) was still using his 900cc Yamaha Diversion with nearly 400,000 miles up, having had no engine strip downs, only regular servicing and oil changes at half the makers recommended mileage.
If anybody's interested here's my tales of my biking trips,
www.gordonbickerton.co.uk

cubpilot
16th June 2009, 22:02
russian made radial aero engines fitted to most of the eastern bloc prop driven planes used to have a TBo of as little as 700 hrs until the fall of the iron curtain. now on good quality western oils these same angines last for 2000+ hrs. just shows you how important it is to have the right oils. oddly some of the synthetics are not that good in slow reving air cooled engines. there is a high rate of gumming up the rings that shows up on annual inspection compression tests and so costing owners a lot for top overhauls.

spongebob
16th June 2009, 22:44
The motor cycle racing is spectacular but wouldn't it be great if we could go back to the days of watching Geoff Duke and his Castolised Norton racing on wide screen plasma in the comfort of one's own home.
That was the real oil.

Bobn

Satanic Mechanic
17th June 2009, 18:15
During my time at Palmers Hebburn (Alternative scheme) I remember some of the tanker company motor ships coming in for drydock. When the main Doxford B&W crankcase where opened up the surfaces where yukie, and the main and bottm end bearings all though funtional where mechanically shot to pieces. A reacation to the tankers/Oil company ships being run drydock-drydock, with no change of oil only top ups, and no bearing maintenace. I do not know how cost effective this was? BUt Ithought the liner and box boat companies ships engines where always in better condition, and easier to work in the crankcase.

Engineers of a nervous disposition look away now while I tell you a story of what happens when the semi talented/conscious are allowed to make decisions.

As you know CLO in a 2 stroke is sacrificial and also expensive - depending on the engine it can run into $000's a day, so it is good practice to try and get the consumption down to an optimum. The question is what is your idea of 'optimum' - mine is the minimum required not to cause an unusual wear rate in liners/rings - on a B&W S -MCC with Jenson type lubricators you can get down to around 0.9gshp/hr - with alpha lubricators (as I stated before - the biggest development IMHO in engine development in years) it can get down to around 0.6 gshp/hr.

The jittery should look away now

However lets say we were to reduce it further and cause the liners to wear - but at a rate where they would be just ready for change at 5 year docking - would the saving in oil more than pay for the new liners?

If you ever catch anyone thinking the above - may I suggest euthanasia with extreme prejudice. I was ordered to try this and with extreme reluctance and very half heartedley reduced a Jensen equipped S80 which I had spent years getting down to 0.91 specific to 0.88 specific - so ......

using your skill and judgement can you guess what happened (apart from the jensens getting rapidly turned back up)?

chadburn
18th June 2009, 12:25
There is no doubt that Rossi is one hell of a rider, our short circuits were old Airfields which in my younger days I raced a Dommie 88 (with Dunstall bits fitted) around, Geoff Duke was a member of my local Motor Club and of course an icon in those days as indeed he still is to most of the the older generation, in those days they raced anywhere they could there were no specialist riders as far as I remember. Still like to see Rossi do the IOM or even Oliver's Mount which I raced twice, very strange running anti-clockwise and things (fences etc) were a bit too close to the road/circuit for my comfort, if you went off on an old Airfield you came back on looking like Wurzel Gummage.
Satanic, I can guess what happened, two strokes were always a bit of a bind whether marine or motorbike when it came to "leaning out" and getting it just right, a Villiers 2T landed me in a ditch when it screamed and then locked up after trying too hard to "lean" it out due to plug "whiskering" which 30 yrs later I found was more to do with the petrol composition rather than my manual petrol/oil mix. As a 30 bob a week Apprentice buying a pair of Lodge R47's at 15 bob each to overcome the problem was a bit of an eye waterer especially after paying my mother 15 bob lodge a week, those were "lean" times!!

Satanic Mechanic
18th June 2009, 12:34
Chadburn - unlike their notorious motorcycle counterparts (Ex RGV250 and KR1S owner = twitchy clutch hand and an aversion to 'loud farty' noises) it did not bind that much , though there was some micro seizure that was not the biggest issue.

I had read about this problem, never thought I would see it and in retrospect I should have realised that this would have happened.


Thankfully it did blow said idea right out of the water and into the spine shivering history stories that Engineers tell their children on dark nights

K urgess
18th June 2009, 13:10
There is no doubt that Rossi is one hell of a rider, our short circuits were old Airfields which in my younger days I raced a Dommie 88 (with Dunstall bits fitted) around, Geoff Duke was a member of my local Motor Club and of course an icon in those days as indeed he still is to most of the the older generation, in those days they raced anywhere they could there were no specialist riders as far as I remember. Still like to see Rossi do the IOM or even Oliver's Mount which I raced twice, very strange running anti-clockwise and things (fences etc) were a bit too close to the road/circuit for my comfort, if you went off on an old Airfield you came back on looking like Wurzel Gummage.

Those were the days. (Thumb)
J. Brett (98)
McIntyre (100)
Codd (84)
P. Davey (97)
Climbing Ollie's Mount in the late 50s.

chadburn
19th June 2009, 12:45
Photo appears to be first left hander before going for the climb up the mount, MV Agustas sounded superb running up there.

chadburn
20th June 2009, 17:41
Having been away from Engineroom's full time for many years (barring for giving the odd bits of advice on old steam job's) what is the use of modern fully synthetic oil's on today's Motorships or are they just too expensive?

surfaceblow
20th June 2009, 18:28
I have been using synthetic oil for rotary air compressors and on the smaller equipment like purifier sumps. The company that I worked with will only supply synthetic oil if the equipment manufacturer suggest its use.

The bigger equipment where the oil gets purified still uses the non synthetic stuff.


Joe

Satanic Mechanic
20th June 2009, 19:00
Having been away from Engineroom's full time for many years (barring for giving the odd bits of advice on old steam job's) what is the use of modern fully synthetic oil's on today's Motorships or are they just too expensive?


Probably the two big ones are air compressors and purifier gear boxes.

The most spectacular one is reciprocating air compressors - virtualy no varnishing of the valves at all.

chadburn
22nd June 2009, 11:25
Thanks for the info Surface & Satanic, "Designer" Synthetics came into play after I left the sea, but having had them in the family cars now (Mobil 1) for a number of years I would not use anything else these day's. Although I understand using it in the older engine's can cause havoc with the oil seals, my own hatred was for Hydraulic oil, awful stuff, a little pinhole in the Ballast v/v Deck ring main and you would think half of the Middle East output was across the Deck.

Satanic Mechanic
24th June 2009, 12:53
I know what you mean about hydraulic oil but it must be said there are few things more tear inducing than Heavy Oil leak.