Methanol cargoes

Archie2009
9th September 2009, 07:16
Hi,

Looking for anybody there that has any experience on methanol cargoes. Just been shifted to a methanol boat as mate after being on oil for some time.

cheers

Billieboy
9th September 2009, 07:39
Ben Lane and Stolt Tankers are your best bet.

Welcome aboard from the flat bit of Europe, have a good trip Archie!

non descript
9th September 2009, 08:42
Archie, A warm welcome to you. Thank you for joining the community and a first and very interesting posting, which hopefully some folk will be ablt to comment on - Enjoy the site and all it has to offer, and we very much look forward to your postings in due course. (Thumb)

billyboy
9th September 2009, 09:25
Welcome aboard from the Philippines. Enjoy all this great site has to offer

Archie2009
9th September 2009, 12:49
Thanks guys,

Been reading up on the Tank Cleaning guide. I am hoping that these boats are dedicated methanol boats.

willincity
9th September 2009, 13:03
Thanks guys,

. I am hoping that these boats are dedicated methanol boats.
I bet you are,
I carried the stuff in S/s tanks many times and they were not dedicated tanks either, depends where you load the product on how strict the tank inspection may be, but we always cleaned to methanol standard with DI water and supported with onboard "wall wash" kit, if you have good equipment in good order then you have no problem...........good luck

surfaceblow
9th September 2009, 18:13
I sailed on several chemical tankers that carried methanol and grain alcohol. The biggest problem was in the states was with the ATF (Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms) agents onboard during the loading and discharge. The sample locker had to under lock and key at all times since the samples had to be onboard for six months after the load was been discharged. The crew was not above taking a sample for their own use. Since we carried both Methanol and grain alcohol we were luckily no one mixed up the samples.

For fun the Engineers would talk about all sorts of guns they had, most of the guns where figments of their imagination while the ATF Agents hanged out in the Saloon for coffee it was fun to watch the Agents taking notes on the imaginary weapons.

Archie2009
10th September 2009, 07:00
I bet you are,
I carried the stuff in S/s tanks many times and they were not dedicated tanks either, depends where you load the product on how strict the tank inspection may be, but we always cleaned to methanol standard with DI water and supported with onboard "wall wash" kit, if you have good equipment in good order then you have no problem...........good luck

What sort of pumps did you have on these ships - framo's or deep wells. I had deep well's on my last chemical boat. It was one of those Bergesen Igloo ships. I had quite a few problems discharging phosphoric acid in India on those ships. Once I reached 0.5m sounding the deep well pumps started tripping. Tried the eductor also but to no avail. Finally made an entry into the tank to find about 30 cm on mud all over the bottom and the pump sump was full of it. Sailed out and had fun washing it out of the tank. And the surveyor in the load port (Jorf Lasfar) was so finniky and acting all high and mighty about tank cleanliness etc. etc.

willincity
10th September 2009, 13:17
What sort of pumps did you have on these ships - framo's or deep wells. I had deep well's on my last chemical boat. It was one of those Bergesen Igloo ships. I had quite a few problems discharging phosphoric acid in India on those ships. .
I sailed with all sorts of p/p's although FRAMO more often than not (they also do deepwell p/p's)
Phosphoric can and obviously does silt up on you and on a bad day mud turns to "rock".
As you are no doubt aware Phosphy acid is available in aqueous solution in concentrations ranging from 33 to 85 percent, with the upper number being most common (75, 80 and 85%).
..... the real trick here is to keep your pumps ticking over on recirc while on passage and also crack back into he tank on discharge, keeps the silt moving about the tank, (we had to recirculated the crap from Le Havre during in the load of the rubbish) you were lucky the stuff never went off in the p/p stack although I assume you blew them down prior loading.

Archie2009
11th September 2009, 11:21
I sailed with all sorts of p/p's although FRAMO more often than not (they also do deepwell p/p's)
Phosphoric can and obviously does silt up on you and on a bad day mud turns to "rock".
As you are no doubt aware Phosphy acid is available in aqueous solution in concentrations ranging from 33 to 85 percent, with the upper number being most common (75, 80 and 85%).
..... the real trick here is to keep your pumps ticking over on recirc while on passage and also crack back into he tank on discharge, keeps the silt moving about the tank, (we had to recirculated the crap from Le Havre during in the load of the rubbish) you were lucky the stuff never went off in the p/p stack although I assume you blew them down prior loading.

It was my first phosphoric acid cargo. I did blow the stacks down after loading, but did not recirc the cargo enroute. Did that the next time though. End of cargo in Goa, was the fun part when the agent brought about 50 sheets of paper to fill up and sign. That was something!

John Hebblewhite
11th September 2009, 21:10
As a mate in Silverline and the Ben Line Chemical Tankers we carried it quite a lot. Tanks be to spotless and dry, dont use coloured kemwipe to dry sumps as the dye comes out and you fail the spectrum test. To tank clean just strip your sumps and blow the tank. I always thought it was a easy cargo.

John

willincity
13th September 2009, 17:06
To tank clean just strip your sumps and blow the tank. I always thought it was a easy cargo.
John
............providing your previoues was methanol......

If she is not a dedicated ship then the last six cargoes can still be picked out with the shore side wall wash test, let alone the chlorides.
out of interest what ship are joining and where?

Archie2009
14th September 2009, 03:35
............providing your previoues was methanol......

If she is not a dedicated ship then the last six cargoes can still be picked out with the shore side wall wash test, let alone the chlorides.
out of interest what ship are joining and where?

Am supposed to join a new building dedicated Methanol tanker in the yard sometime towards the end of the year. That's all I know.

BTW just read about new categories for NLS substances. Now ther are categorised as X Y and Z. Another thing to read up for me.

John Hebblewhite
14th September 2009, 21:14
............providing your previoues was methanol......

If she is not a dedicated ship then the last six cargoes can still be picked out with the shore side wall wash test, let alone the chlorides.
out of interest what ship are joining and where?

The Ben Line chemical tankers in particular the Benvenue on BP charter carried Methanol. Ethanol (potable),Acetone and some others I can not remember.
Washing was all fresh water as this was a small vessel thus eliminating the choride problem. Hardest cargo I found was synthetic Latex, discharge with portable deck pumps, tank cleaning back to chemical standard a nightmare with SS tanks due to the roughness of the tanks caused by acid cargoes. However in Bibby Line we took quite weeks to clean a vessel to Methanol standard after a lube oil cargo in a vessel that did not have steam on deck. I am happily retired and do not face these problems these days.

John Hebblewhite
14th September 2009, 21:18
I sailed with all sorts of p/p's although FRAMO more often than not (they also do deepwell p/p's)
Phosphoric can and obviously does silt up on you and on a bad day mud turns to "rock".
As you are no doubt aware Phosphy acid is available in aqueous solution in concentrations ranging from 33 to 85 percent, with the upper number being most common (75, 80 and 85%).
..... the real trick here is to keep your pumps ticking over on recirc while on passage and also crack back into he tank on discharge, keeps the silt moving about the tank, (we had to recirculated the crap from Le Havre during in the load of the rubbish) you were lucky the stuff never went off in the p/p stack although I assume you blew them down prior loading.

During Discharge get the surveyor to certify that the empty tanks are empty and put some water in the tank to stop the residue going like concrete.

willincity
14th September 2009, 22:33
The Ben Line chemical tankers in particular the Benvenue on BP charter carried Methanol. Ethanol (potable),Acetone and some others I can not remember.
Washing was all fresh water as this was a small vessel thus eliminating the choride problem. Hardest cargo I found was synthetic Latex, discharge with portable deck pumps, tank cleaning back to chemical standard a nightmare with SS tanks due to the roughness of the tanks caused by acid cargoes. However in Bibby Line we took quite weeks to clean a vessel to Methanol standard after a lube oil cargo in a vessel that did not have steam on deck. I am happily retired and do not face these problems these days.
I recall the little Ben ships in the mid to late 70’s, very busy vessels, they use to ship to ship to us in Antwerp/R’dam, but what a dream for them to be on "super clean” cargoes for BP - just vent off last grade and keep the salts out, bliss to any chemical C/Off.
How we all hated the word "Lubes" or “slack wax” on chemical ships. By the very nature of the ships design these cargos were easy to prep for and carriage was a walk in the park it was just getting rid of the fatty acids back to wall wash standards on 32 tanks in 3 days, one pig of a job.
I recall a 2/off or maybe c/o on one of the Ben boats called Holmes from East Yorkshire I think, he was looking for a move to deep sea chemi tankers and came over to see me on one of the Post boats, there was a reason he has stayed in my mind because he had a slight disability with a foot/leg and with respect always wondered how he managed medicals and getting about on chemical tanker decks when bouncing about in the North Sea was very difficult for all hands.

willincity
14th September 2009, 23:04
BTW just read about new categories for NLS substances. Now ther are categorised as X Y and Z. Another thing to read up for me.

Not so NEW are the XYZ's regs, they are almost 3 years old, Annex II took a right bashing in 2007 and we are still trying to understand it, and the intro of Veg oils only complicated the issue but the comical side was to get all the Certificates of Fitness corrected/ammended by Class or Flag state for over 4000 Type I, II & III ships world wide in less than 8 month when the document was first made available.
Port State had a field day on 01-01-07 and INTERTANKO were going crazy.
(K)

Nick Balls
14th September 2009, 23:25
Carried methanol on offshore vessels for a number of years.
Used framo deep-well pumps and Nitrogen "padding" over the top. Practically speaking ( Don't mention the regs!) Tank cleaning was simple!!!! What little remained in the deep-wells was diluted with fresh water and then pumped ashore to road tanker for safe disposal. Diluted this way it becomes non-flammable very quickly. The ships original procedures manual was simply crazy !!!! These had to be re-done to safely handle this stuff. In 5 years and on 2 vessels we only had one incident!!!! (Many hundred cargoes) This was a very small spillage at the manifold. Connections were using Avery hardoll self sealing links.
Procedures in place meant that we had both fresh water and pressurized fire main at hand ..Very important.

Archie2009
15th September 2009, 01:33
Not so NEW are the XYZ's regs, they are almost 3 years old, Annex II took a right bashing in 2007 and we are still trying to understand it, and the intro of Veg oils only complicated the issue but the comical side was to get all the Certificates of Fitness corrected/ammended by Class or Flag state for over 4000 Type I, II & III ships world wide in less than 8 month when the document was first made available.
Port State had a field day on 01-01-07 and INTERTANKO were going crazy.
(K)

Did you pad methanol with nitrogen?

wazim
15th September 2009, 05:20
The Ben Line chemical tankers in particular the Benvenue on BP charter carried Methanol. Ethanol (potable),Acetone and some others I can not remember.
Washing was all fresh water as this was a small vessel thus eliminating the choride problem. Hardest cargo I found was synthetic Latex, discharge with portable deck pumps, tank cleaning back to chemical standard a nightmare with SS tanks due to the roughness of the tanks caused by acid cargoes. However in Bibby Line we took quite weeks to clean a vessel to Methanol standard after a lube oil cargo in a vessel that did not have steam on deck. I am happily retired and do not face these problems these days.

Hi John,
Anychance was that Bibby Line ship the Harold la Borde or Trinidad and Tobago.
regards
Waz

Nick Balls
15th September 2009, 10:35
Archie,
Yes we used nitrogen padding, in our case this was supplied via "quads" containing nitrogen at 250bar, this was then reduced down to very low pressure/big volume to fill tanks. The best systems use a nitrogen generator .
We however did not have this possibility. Handling high pressure gases (as our engineering brethren know) is probably the most dangerous part of the operation. Strict training procedures and equipment checks proved vital.

willincity
15th September 2009, 10:51
Did you pad methanol with nitrogen?

Generally speaking it was charterer’s option but more often than not we padded with N2;
We had and N2 generator on most ships I was with although on smaller jobs 4 to 6,000 ton we used bottles to keep padding topped up.

Nick in both his posts makes some very valid points! (regs aside(A))

Archie2009
15th September 2009, 12:21
Generally speaking it was charterer’s option but more often than not we padded with N2;
We had and N2 generator on most ships I was with although on smaller jobs 4 to 6,000 ton we used bottles to keep padding topped up.

Nick in both his posts makes some very valid points! (regs aside(A))

Thanks guys,

What about tank entry? Did you go from methanol - IG - Air?

John Hebblewhite
17th September 2009, 20:49
Hi Wazim..the Bibby Line tanker was the Marinor with the clean from Lube to Methanol without steam on deck.

Hi John,
Anychance was that Bibby Line ship the Harold la Borde or Trinidad and Tobago.
regards
Waz

John Hebblewhite
17th September 2009, 20:54
Hi Nick...was the offshore Methanol carrier the Stirling Sword, I see in my discharge book I completed six voyages on her.

Archie,
Yes we used nitrogen padding, in our case this was supplied via "quads" containing nitrogen at 250bar, this was then reduced down to very low pressure/big volume to fill tanks. The best systems use a nitrogen generator .
We however did not have this possibility. Handling high pressure gases (as our engineering brethren know) is probably the most dangerous part of the operation. Strict training procedures and equipment checks proved vital.

Nick Balls
17th September 2009, 20:55
The system we had was simple in this respect. Methanol residues+ Fresh water added (All then pumped ashore) All this when in an IG condition.
Tanks then opened and air driven fan attached. Then after a good period Checks + Permit , entry.
Methanol is miscible with water and quickly loses its volatility. In practice the small amount of residues when using a deepwell type pump meant that we always diluted by a few 100%'s percent . A chemist took a sample before delivery to road tanker. I never saw any problem with this aspect.
I would point out that in our original operations manual (probably written by an ex tankerman from the 1950's we were instructed to enter the tank with the methanol residues and mop them up!!!!!!!!!! We had to "stop the job" (The ship was brand new) and first re-write the instructions, then submit them for approval. Practice was to have a very strict set of written guidelines which were always followed to the letter.
We used a normal explosimeter and also gas detection tubes for the final check prior to entry. The N2 Padding does clear very quickly and we normally found that a period of a couple of hours with the fan was sufficient.
Another thing worthy of note was that the vessel I am talking about only had tank entry about every 4 months. This was probably the most dangerous part of the operations when we had "empty" tanks over a period of a couple of weeks. Our instructions were that a twice daily check be carried out to insure that the N2 padding was still pressured. Working in very high seas on a small vessel (3000T) this was sometimes difficult. In these conditions it was also the most likely time that pressure could be lost!.
Another almost "comical" problem was the fact that the vessel was a multi use offshore vessel and like any of these situations it was very difficult to control non-ships personnel. A problem I seem to remember on tankers never happened.

Archie2009
24th September 2009, 14:42
Thanks for all the help. Am off to join a boat 2morrow. V have the internet on board as I am told but don't know how fast. Once again thanks for the help

PJW
27th September 2009, 22:02
Carried methanol a few times when I was mate on Rowbothams chemical boats. Generally a right work up, but always got through the foot samples to load. These ships had zinc coated tanks and where certainly not dedicated to methanol. Always had to give the tanks a real good hot fw wash and they had to be bone dry.
Mind this was 20 years ago, guess the specification might have changed a little since then!
Regards
PJW