Marine Compound Engine Circa 1890

Shipbuilder
22nd September 2009, 13:51
Here is a plan of an 1890 marine compund engine. Engines have always fascinated me.
I am posting this for no other reason than seeing if any of you are interested in obsolete engineering and tales pertaining to them..
I profess no knowledge whatsoever on such things and have never built an engine in my life although I did have a splendid oscillating cylinder steam engine when I was at school.

During the Great War, when the local vicar was visiting my gradparents house, my dad (then aged about ten) had his steam engine on the living room table and at that time decided he might make it work by putting a lump of carbide in the boiler rather that a flame under it! Tremendous explosion and bits of boiler all over the room. Luckily, no casualties, but vicar never visited again!

Bob

stein
22nd September 2009, 14:05
Must be plate 57 in Paasch's dictionary. I have an edition with German, French, Spanish and Italian, in case someone should need the word that relates to a specific number in the drawing in any of those languages :-).
In the Maritime Museum at Kronborg Castle there was a mall model of a triple-X with piping and all made by a former engineer, it looked quite complete, a work of love. Regards, Stein.

Shipbuilder
22nd September 2009, 15:12
Hi Stein,
Yes, that is the volume, I have the 1890 edition and most of the engineering drawings are exceptional, but some of the other drawings not as good.
I have a 1907 copy of
Jahrbuch der Schiffbautechnischen Gesellschaft
which I would appreciate more if I could read German, but very good on plans and I think you have that as well.
Bob

stein
22nd September 2009, 16:21
I have a facsimile edition of a 1908 book, Laas: Die Grossen Segelschiffe, that apparently was published in that annual you have a copy of. An Oslo library (Deichmanske Bibliotek) had every year of that Jahrbuch in my youth, but as I remember it it was not a treasure trove of technical drawings. A Swiss lake wheelboat was one of the vessels I remember as detailed with drawings suitable for basing a model on. (The library got rid of their old books, I hope the Technical Museum in Oslo received those annuals.)
Regarding models, and engines, I am sure you are familiar with this site: http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/index.html , but others may not be. Here's a fellow with steam engines from that site: http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Huxhold.htm Regards, Stein.

Shipbuilder
22nd September 2009, 19:12
Hi Stein,
I was not aware of either of those links you gave, but very much liked the second one with all the little engines. There were a lot of model engines like that in a Liverpool museum in the 60s, but haven't been recently. Would love to build one myself, but although I have the equipment and probably the skill, I don't have any plans that are clear enough for me to follow.
I recently got a book on "Heat engines" but was rather disappointed that it was about steam turbines. What I really wanted to do was build a real "Heat engine" that worked off heat alone and no steam. Terribly feeble and inefficient, but I was very impressed when I saw one (model) working with only a candle under it
Bob

Billieboy
22nd September 2009, 19:42
Bob, your engine looks like an advanced double, (compound), expansion engine used as atmospheric, (non condensing), engines for some of the boats on Windermere and that big lake down near Koblenz. I have seen similar engines, used in vertical and horizontal positions, as grate engines, or boiler feed pumps - these with ram/buckets/pistons, without a crankshaft.

Shipbuilder
22nd September 2009, 21:51
Billieboy
Thanks for reply, but it all goes over my head I am afraid, I haven't any great (or even moderate) knoweldge of engines, but I do like looking at plans and pictures of them, they have always fascinated me and I have accumulated hundreds of drawings without ever going beyond simply admiring them!
Bob

hamishb
22nd September 2009, 23:22
Hi Stein,
I was not aware of either of those links you gave, but very much liked the second one with all the little engines. There were a lot of model engines like that in a Liverpool museum in the 60s, but haven't been recently. Would love to build one myself, but although I have the equipment and probably the skill, I don't have any plans that are clear enough for me to follow.
I recently got a book on "Heat engines" but was rather disappointed that it was about steam turbines. What I really wanted to do was build a real "Heat engine" that worked off heat alone and no steam. Terribly feeble and inefficient, but I was very impressed when I saw one (model) working with only a candle under it
Bob

If you are interested there are a couple of small books entitled Building Simple Steam Engines 1 & 2
ISBN 1 85486 104 2 and ISBN 1 85486 147 6 respectively.
there are about 4 engines in each book all well detailed.
Hamish

surfaceblow
23rd September 2009, 01:36
There is The Boys Book of Engine Building 1918 available on-line at google books. It as the history of steam and plans to make some of the engines.

http://books.google.com/books?id=R3cZ--h_PC8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=boys+book+of+engine#v=onepage&q=&f=false

You also can make pop pop boats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZF0mjruAxM

Shipbuilder
23rd September 2009, 07:26
Hi Hamish & Surfaceblow,
Thanks for links. I have made Pop Pop boats, but never a steam piston engine although I built a small steam turbione when I was at school, but that was easy as it was just steam blowing the blades round. Small paint tin was the boiler, highly dangerous I expect, but no-one bothered then (1950s). Worst that happened was that I burnt myself on the boiler a few times.
Bob

Billieboy
23rd September 2009, 09:40
I've turned from 8 BA screw cutting, to 6 feet diameter piston and junk rings, for triple expansion engines. I could never get into model making, but would, and still do, spend hours and days working on a stamp collection.

ccurtis1
23rd September 2009, 13:59
Bob, your engine looks like an advanced double, (compound), expansion engine used as atmospheric, (non condensing), engines for some of the boats on Windermere and that big lake down near Koblenz. I have seen similar engines, used in vertical and horizontal positions, as grate engines, or boiler feed pumps - these with ram/buckets/pistons, without a crankshaft.

If my memory serves me correctly, we were still building steam generator sets with compound steam engines, at the Sunderland Forge in the early 60's.
(1960's, not 1860's). dc Electrical end
Regards

Billieboy
23rd September 2009, 15:49
If my memory serves me correctly, we were still building steam generator sets with compound steam engines, at the Sunderland Forge in the early 60's.
(1960's, not 1860's). dc Electrical end
Regards

The engine pictured would be a bit big for the standard 110v DC gennies, on a Liberty Boat, bur would be OK for some of the Ferries and other floating Lighthouses built in the sixties, although for tankers at that time 440v AC was the norm from about '50.(==D)

chadburn
23rd September 2009, 16:30
Shipbuilder, your engine is indeed a compound as billieboy states, however it does have a condenser attached to the rear of the engine which is how they were built rather than having the remote type of condenser usually mounted to the ships hull which was the case with the larger V.C.E. Enginerooms.

Shipbuilder
23rd September 2009, 19:38
Thanks for replies. I knew what it was when I posted it. The condenser is "11" on the plan. I am very interested in looking at engine plans, but have seldom taken it beyond that. I actually posted the plan because I was fed up of another section of the forum where nearly everyone was bellyaching about Mariner Comepetance and wanted to get back to something more interesting. My dad was a carriage and wagon examiner on the railways and when I was 8 or 9 in the 50s, I often went to work with him in the school holidays and rode on the footplates of steam shunting locomotives or helped push them round on the turntables and learned how to "wipe a joint" or do soldering with a large fire iron heated over a gas jet and generally had a fine old time. Such dreadful goings on would never, of course, be permitted today in case I got stuck in a giant cog wheel or fell into a fire-box, but the interest remained with me! But my desire to go to sea over-rode any engineering ambitions. Not having gained a single "O" level, my headmaster felt I was not really bright enough for anything other than wireless communications (which is now a million times more complicted than any engine) - such is life!

Bob

chadburn
23rd September 2009, 20:33
Shipbuilder, how's your chuck, chuck. Given time I am sure you could build a V.C.E. or something similiar, my old Doctor use to build steam engines in his "spare time". give it a go it will make a change.

Shipbuilder
23rd September 2009, 20:51
Hi Chadburn. Chuck is fine thanks, but only used it a couple of times since filing inside. Don't know what V.C.E. means! Haven't done anything mechanical for several days now (apart from sawing an inch off bottom of back gate because it was catching on the floor!). Am currently in "writing" mode, but beginning to get fed up with it and fingers "itching" again. Awaiting details for iron-hulled full-rigged ship at the moment.
Problems (for me) with engines is the boiler - don't really want to blow myself to pieces yet which is why I fancied building a "heat engine" that doesn't have a boiler at all. I know they are useless and incredibly inefficient, but to see one swinging round placidly for hours on end with only a candle underneath really impressed me. Someone brought one to North West Model Shipwrights some time ago and described its action as well as the demonstration!
A friend of mine built a "steam" engine that was so delicately balanced it would run if he just blew down the steam pipe, but can't see me doing anything that fine!
Bob

chadburn
23rd September 2009, 21:11
Shipbuilder, V.C.E = vertical compound engine. V.T.E.= vertical triple-ex engine. D.C.E.= diagonal compound engine (paddlers). build the engine and run it on compressed air, thats how it was done with aux's before raised steam(Thumb).

Shipbuilder
24th September 2009, 07:36
Thanks for further info. Don't have any compressed air either other than what my small airbrush compressor produces. The older I get, the more things I want to do. At the moment, I am coming to the end of a 28,000 word screed on constructing a miniature iron barque.
Bob

stores
24th September 2009, 19:01
Hi from STORES, just got back from switzerland, whilst there visited the lake of zurich, two steam paddle steamers still working, took a trip on STADT ZURICH, 100 years old this year, gleaming and not a speck of rust anywhere, fresh water lake makes a difference, the engine as allmost completely visible to the public, watched those massive con rods and crank for a couple of hours, i think a diagonal compound engine, 56 RPM MAX, speed 27 kilometers per hour, like a new pin, was reminded of the old 3 leggied jobs, same smell as well,can reccomend the trip to all steam enthuasists,

surfaceblow
24th September 2009, 20:36
Problems (for me) with engines is the boiler - don't really want to blow myself to pieces yet which is why I fancied building a "heat engine" that doesn't have a boiler at all. I know they are useless and incredibly inefficient, but to see one swinging round placidly for hours on end with only a candle underneath really impressed me. Someone brought one to North West Model Shipwrights some time ago and described its action as well as the demonstration!

There is instructions for an hot air engine near the back of the Boys Book of Engine Building page 199 (page 211 if viewing online). The one shown uses an Bunsen burner or an alcohol lamp in a pinch.

Joe

stores
19th October 2009, 23:00
hi,, the only steam ships i worked on were powered by triple expansion, also steam turbine, what is the difference between a triple expansion and a compound steam engine ? were all compounds 2 cylinder, ? were there quadruple expansion steam engines. ? if so why were most ships triple expansion. ? all info gratfully received, STORES.