Senate urges Canadian Govt to arm Ice Breakers.

AncientBrit
14th December 2009, 23:38
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2339474

JoK
15th December 2009, 15:02
Idiots.
And they'll want it done with the same budget the ships are maintained with, I'll bet.

It is a huge hassle to put guns on ships that aren't designed for it, and the mentality of the organization isn't there to point and shoot. They just aren't trained for that, they are trained to go pick people out of the sea and save lives.
They tried this in DFO and it cost a fortune and guess what, no guns on the ship for the last 13 years.

To carry guns, you have to carve out space in a already full ship for a gun and ammunition store. It needs to have it's own fire suppression and on and on.

AncientBrit
15th December 2009, 20:13
Jo,
Cant you smell DND behind this? The admirals and generals at DND HQ are in the background calling favors in high places to make sure that when the new ice-capable ships do come on line they have military crews and are armed.
After all, if you are going to be acting as highway patrol in NW Passage a flashing red/blue light isnt going to hack it.
If Harpers not careful he could find himeself re-elected with a large majority.

Archie NS
15th December 2009, 22:19
What a joke, but then again the Senate is a joke, on the Canadian taxpayer. We only have two ships that can opperate in the north, the Louis S. St-Laurent and the Terry Fox, the navy dosn't have anything that can go up there. The U.S. have been running subs through there for years, and the Russians are running tourists up to the pole, those Russian ships could run rings around the two Canadian ice breakers.
If anyone wants to go through the North West Passage all Canada can do is protest because they sure as heck don't have the means to stop them.

JoK
16th December 2009, 00:31
two ships that can opperate in the north, the Louis S. St-Laurent and the Terry Fox,

Actually there are 7 that regularly go north. The LSS and Fox are the two biggest.

Can you imagine though...that tanker wants to go through....well he isn't calling us,what do we do...?


Shoot the Ba$tard...we'll show him!!

The only reason everyone is swinging a big dick over this is because of the untapped resources up there. As long as it was covered with 30 feet of ice, no one was interested. This is not about the NW passage, this is about the ore, the oil and the diamonds up there. Greed.

JoK
16th December 2009, 00:42
Jo,
Cant you smell DND behind this? The admirals and generals at DND HQ are in the background calling favors in high places to make sure that when the new ice-capable ships do come on line they have military crews and are armed.
After all, if you are going to be acting as highway patrol in NW Passage a flashing red/blue light isnt going to hack it.
If Harpers not careful he could find himeself re-elected with a large majority.


I honestly don't know what the policy is on DND operating in home waters here in Canada, And I can't comment on the new breakers.
I know in the US, USN does not have the mandate, it is the USCG. Which is why they have the guns-War on drugs, you know.

But I am really curious as to whether or not the frigates meet the Arctic Pollution Regulations. I am willing to bet not. I wonder how fast and far that hull crack will go if they get in the wrong place, in the cold. There is a reason why the CCG goes north, their ships may be old, but that is what they are designed for. Actually over designed.

Derek Roger
16th December 2009, 01:25
Jo ;
Frigates can not meet the Artic Pollution Regs as they do not have a double hull ( which you well know )

Steel quality is not a problem for Canadian Figates as all the steel was EH 36 with excellent Charpies down to minus 40 C . However as with all modern frigates their hull thickness is very light and in ice would be a disaster.

I can visualise CCG taking over the duty with some armament in the future with new vessels .

It is far easier to add arms to ice breakers and add some weapons crew and be manned by personnel who know the Arctic for navigation than for the Navy to try and learn the drill .

In ice there is no possibility of using the speed of a vessel therefore a frigate type vessel would be a waste of space . Sea Sparrow missiles would be a joke .

A bottom array using armed Ice Breakers for support and showing the flag would be in my opinion most usefull .

Nukes would be ideal but knowing the North and its reserves the best bet would be a LNG and Diesel combination with tested hulls and systems .

I would be happy to offer the best water cooling system and engine room air heating system for full power operation for a per diem until I die .

Be quick as I am ageing faster than the Ice Cap is melting .

Regards Derek

mrcanoehead
16th December 2009, 02:07
They are kidding right! Virtual shipping oh ! sounds like more banter from the harpo govt, no expertise or shipyards left in canada to build let alone design these patrol vessels, they trew it all away years ago, to bad & now its really needed, sort of like having a deapsea shipping company under canadian flag, not somthing like Fedcom to name one. Somthing like what we used to have about 50-60 years ago like CANADIAN NATIONAL STEAMSHIPS, WEST INDIES FLEET.
However it'll be interesting if anything interesting but lipservice comes o0ut of this.

AncientBrit
16th December 2009, 02:18
You can bet your bottom dollar that Pierre the Pacifist sewed up the Constitution to ensure that CF (Navy) vessls are the only ones allowed to carry armament. I think Harper is becoming a pretty popular guy because at last the country has someone at the wheel who isnt going to bend over for the opinions of others countries/interests. His visit to the Memorial ceremony in Hong Kong recently was a great move with the military. Minister of Defense has crawled thru the mud with recruits on Shiloh Ranges. Get the Government of the day and the military on good terms, who knows what will develop? Watch this space .

JoK
16th December 2009, 03:00
Frigates can not meet the Artic Pollution Regs as they do not have a double hull ( which you well know )

LOL, actually I didn't know that they were single hulled. I, however, do know they said they met the pollution act because they treated sewage and did something neat with their garbage. I thought it was a load of garbage at the time.

Mr Brit, you and I will always differ on Harper, I think he is a dangerous
B#*%*who will hurt us more then help us.

And way back in the 90s the fisheries ships did carry arnament and when the merger with CG and DFO took place guns may have still been onboard.
It is funny I just had this conversation this morning...
Somewhere along the way there was a protest from the CG crews who objected mightly to guns and there was a court decision that upheld it. I have no more details than that and that is only by 3rd party discussion of it.
DND and civilians do not get along in the same place very well, so putting them on an icebreaker would make for interesting times. Only time will tell what the Defeinbaker will look like.

Dickyboy
16th December 2009, 03:36
No point in arming Ice Breakers. By the time they arm them there won't be any ice left thanks to global warming :o

mrcanoehead
16th December 2009, 23:37
So they are to name the New Vessel after Diefenbaker... Like I said vessel, not more than one... a good joke, Also remembering His Funeral, the RCMP Carrying him out of Parlament buildings, The two Flags on His Casket, Putting the Maple leaf at his feet if i remember, how sad, and unbefitting

Archie NS
17th December 2009, 01:03
By the time the Polar 8 Project ever gets under way there won't be any ice left up north. It was originally supposed to come in at around $700 million, at today's prices that would be well over a billion dollars, and with cost overruns could double that figure, the project was supposed to be complete by 2017 ti would be lucky to be finished by 2027. Originally designed as nuclear-powered, it was downgraded to diesel-electric.
Also who are they going to get to man these ships, anyone going into the Coast Guard today are hired on for six months and then laid off and rehired, n o benefits and no pension, the guys coming out of the Coast Guard Collage have to do five years service to pay back the expense of their education.
There's quite a lot of guy's around where I live who are in the Coast Guard and can't wait for another job to present itself, a very sad state of affairs!!!

JoK
17th December 2009, 01:51
So they are to name the New Vessel after Diefenbaker...
That was what they published when the funding was announced, how many years ago..

Archie NS
17th December 2009, 02:37
That was what they published when the funding was announced, how many years ago..

1980(Smoke)

JoK
17th December 2009, 04:58
Really? Was it that long ago?
That must be the Polar 8?

Klaatu83
17th December 2009, 21:09
There's been a lot of argument about whether "Global Warming" is a fact or not. I suppose this constitutes proof positive that it is. After all, if the Northwest Passage weren't ice-free, why would the Canadian Government concern itself about arming it's arctic icebreakers at all? It certainly hasn't been an issue all these past years because the arctic's always been frozen over, so few vessels have ever gone up there that the Canadian Forces have had to bother about (apart, that is, from that German U-Boat in the movie "49th Parallel"). Now, apparently, the Northwest Passage has become sufficiently accessible to make it a Canadian security issue.

lakercapt
17th December 2009, 21:58
sort of like having a deapsea shipping company under Canadian flag,.

Was with Misener Shipping when they operated three boats outside the lakes in the winter with an occasional run in the summer.
We were indeed a novelty having a Canadian flagged and crewed ship sailing internationally. Alas they were flagged out and eventually sold as it was said they were too costly to operate! but surprise surprise they are back under Canadian flag (occasionally) with one flying the Canadian flag and crewed but not sailing deep sea.
Many places we went we were the first Canadian ships since WWII

mrcanoehead
20th December 2009, 01:05
yes remember them well, saskatchewan pioneer, selikirk settler, & canada Marquis. Believe csl has one and lower lakes has another. All built on the Clyde at Govan Shipyards. RLA sulzers, & Yanmar generators. Anyone know of anything wrong with them after all these years

JoK
20th December 2009, 14:34
Many places we went we were the first Canadian ships since WWII
Same as I when I worked on the Arctic. Only usually it was the first time an icebreaking OBO was in the port. She got a lot of looks in the GOM and New Orleans. Meanwhile we just about cooked onboard, she just wasn't designed for that climate. we went from 10*C in the engineroom to 35*C in 24 hours.

JoK
20th December 2009, 14:42
After all, if the Northwest Passage weren't ice-free, why would the Canadian Government concern itself about arming it's arctic icebreakers at all

Actually the NW Passage isn't ice free. Plus there is a lot of "blue ice" moving with the icepack.
The ice is receeding and there is a lot of pack ice moving. It still freezes in the winter. It still jams up in a wind and in channels.
Everyone thinks that they are just going to go through there like they go into a mapped channel. Other then the US nuclear subs, the charts are probably the same soundings they were 30-40 years ago. I wonder when CHS ( Canadian Hydrography) will make it up there. Most ships need to have an ice pilot onboard to go there and there is a limited supply of those I would think.

The problem with the Senate is they are political appointees, who are absolutely stunned and resting on the laurels and memories of when they were in the Korean war.

AncientBrit
20th December 2009, 17:38
Everything these days is suddenly attributed to "Global Warming". Today, while taking my early morning cruise thru Canada.com I was stunned to find among the photos of the week, the following truly gruesome spectre, even more stunning was that the photographer was blaming this behaviour on the recently "in" subject. Yet I remember watching a movie some 35-40 years ago in which a cameraman followed the life of a family of Polar bears and I distinctly remember being informed that the mother was going to great lengths to keep the two cubs away from any male bears.....Because given the chance, the male bear will kill and eat the youngsters. When I wonder, did it change from S.O.P. to being sure signs of Global Warning?
http://www.canada.com/news/Gallery+National+photos+year/2338346/story.html

mrcanoehead
20th December 2009, 17:45
True, its time they faced up to whats needed to be done, build ships like the Artic, or better to get up there & do the research and work, its all essential to manage it properly. Peoples ideas its ice free or soon to be should another one of thoes constantly repeated misconceptions about the artic. Its a brutal enviornment & should be approaced as such, be ready for anything.

had Hope they'd embarked on a proper deepsea shipbuilding program growing an industry in Canada instead of farming out the construction offshore, lord knows we can do it, just have to have the right people in places who have a long range vision of where to go and not be influenced by some other agenda that'll derail the whole program.

JoK
20th December 2009, 20:42
Its a brutal enviornment & should be approaced as such, be ready for anything.

Yes, nothing quite like being in a ice-choked channel bashing away all night long in a blizzard.
Or doing a late season run, and being stuck so bad that the icebreaker escorting you is a week getting your ship to where it will be able to move.

Yeck on the bear picture, but I understood as well that other bears would eat the cubs. Anytime we saw a she-bear with her cubs, she was always alone. Maybe that is the Churchill garbage fed bears.

lakercapt
20th December 2009, 22:42
yes remember them well, saskatchewan pioneer, Selkirk settler, & Canada Marquis. Believe csl has one and lower lakes has another. All built on the Clyde at Govan Shipyards. RLA sulzers, & Yanmar generators. Anyone know of anything wrong with them after all these years

CSL has two Ex Selkirk Settler and Canada Marquis The Lower Lakes has the Ex Saskatchewan Pioneer.
They are getting old and many things need replacing. Friend of mine sails on the Lower lakes one and they seldom have an uneventful trip with one thing or another breaking down. Lots of cash and TLC needed.
The Generators (3) were Diahatsu. (Japanese)
Bow thruster engine was Ruston 1500 hp

Derek Roger
20th December 2009, 23:23
True, its time they faced up to whats needed to be done, build ships like the Artic, or better to get up there & do the research and work, its all essential to manage it properly. Peoples ideas its ice free or soon to be should another one of thoes constantly repeated misconceptions about the artic. Its a brutal enviornment & should be approaced as such, be ready for anything.

had Hope they'd embarked on a proper deepsea shipbuilding program growing an industry in Canada instead of farming out the construction offshore, lord knows we can do it, just have to have the right people in places who have a long range vision of where to go and not be influenced by some other agenda that'll derail the whole program.

I would welcome another opportunity to Build another MV Arctic . Had fun building the first one .

Derek

lakercapt
20th December 2009, 23:55
I would welcome another opportunity to Build another MV Arctic . Had fun building the first one .

Derek

Think there were many modifications done on her Derek including some tanks .
Not sure if she is still operating.
One a trip to Antwerp we met her coming out of the locks as we were waiting to go in.
A rare occurrence, two Canuks at the same place and same time.
Only other time I remember that happening was in the ice off Leningrad (St.Petersburg now)

JoK
21st December 2009, 01:28
Yep, she is still running. She pretty well goes year round into a mine in the Hudson Strait.
Hard to believe, she was built in "78 and had a hard service after the conversion.

JoK
21st December 2009, 01:31
CSL has two Ex Selkirk Settler and Canada Marquis The Lower Lakes has the Ex Saskatchewan Pioneer.
They are getting old and many things need replacing. Friend of mine sails on the Lower lakes one and they seldom have an uneventful trip with one thing or another breaking down. Lots of cash and TLC needed.
The Generators (3) were Diahatsu. (Japanese)
Bow thruster engine was Ruston 1500 hp

Are they the rivetted lakers? I was on course with a navel architect that worked with one of the lake companies. She was telling me about one of their riveted ships that had a welded patch on one side and how they were watching to see how it would work out.

mrcanoehead
21st December 2009, 03:54
No doubt the trio after being under foc for a while, lots were neglected & can only imagine the shape they were in upon return to registry, it was sad to them them go out to begin with, was surprised to see them return though. glad as well as more employment possibilities. Build another Atctic, great idea, But is not the UMIAK1 another ice breaking bulker destined to move ore for Inco From Voisey bay, believ the Algo port was destined for that run as well, could be wrong. Seen on Boat Nerd The Artic was tied up last week in Trois Riveres.

lakercapt
21st December 2009, 05:24
Are they the rivetted lakers? I was on course with a navel architect that worked with one of the lake companies. She was telling me about one of their riveted ships that had a welded patch on one side and how they were watching to see how it would work out.

No they were of an all welded construction.
The sheer strake and garboard strake were made with high tensile steel and in a seaway they bent quite a bit (like a band saw was one expression)
Only time there was any cracking was on the hatch coaming but this was a design fault and extra stiffening on the hatch coaming rectified that.
Never had any doubts about their seaworthiness even though in many ways they were "Lakers".

JoK
21st December 2009, 12:43
I always thought the Umiak was to replace the Arctic. I guess they realized the ship was still profitable and sent her to China for a bunch of work.
I wonder if they replaced the main engine.Arctic had the same issue at one of the combings, can't remember which one.

charles henry
21st December 2009, 15:30
Having spent about 5/6 years in the arctic I doubt if global warming is a real threat. However, as a Canadian I sincerely hope it is real for this country is in dire need of Global WARMING and the sooner the better.

Regarding keeping vessels out of the arctic waters, really no problem,
MINE THE WATERS.

de chas

mrcanoehead
21st December 2009, 16:24
The artic was 14,000shp & the Umiak is supposed to be about 30,000shp, could be wrong, but definatly building vessels with better hp would help. A great deal was learned from building the Artic, wondered why they only built one. once again lack of will to do soi at the federal level to encourage this building program so needed in Canada.

JoK
21st December 2009, 22:51
Yes, when she was built in 78 and modified in 86 to work as an OBO in the Arctic, it was a brave new world. Then nothing happened and Benthorn closed and Nanisivik and LCI shut down.
I was sitting beside a mining engineer on one of my many flights this year and he was telling how much DO they need to get into the Arctic to develop and supply a mine and no icebreaker ships to deliver. The amount was staggering and darned if I can remember. :( It got lost in all of my budget numbers I guess.

Derek Roger
22nd December 2009, 02:42
The Arctic was very heavily monitored with respect to horse power against hull stresses ( bow section ) ice conditions etc .

We ( Cornwallis Shipping ) used some of the data in specs for the Artic LNG project .

A collegue a very smart Czechslovakian and myself wrote the Specifications for the machinery / electrical during the construction of the Arctic .

Main propulsion was Gas Turbine using the LNG boil off . 3 shafts each of 60, 000 Horse power .
The vessel was to be 180,000 tonnes with a collapable bow which was designed to take the full impact with an Iceberg collison without damage to the cargo spaces .

Trudeau killed that project .

We did go world wide for proposals and did an evaluation . Japanese had the best overall proposal at that time . Wartsilla was a close 2nd .

We also did a proposal for a floating accomodation vessel to operate all year in the Arctic to house the operators of the gas plant .

Canada had the opportunity but due to lack of political balls at the time missed the boat .

Same thing with Dome and CCG .

Now we are talking about it ?

Derek

JoK
22nd December 2009, 03:08
Don;t worry Derek, they're just re-building the wheel.

mrcanoehead
22nd December 2009, 03:50
Its the untold story of the fall out of the economies of the world in the early 1980's When they slowed so did demand for everthing, sort of like whats happening now on the credit fall out, thenm it was sky high interest rates that stopped the flow of money
But Exploration of the Arctic It should have gone ahead, uch like the Fed govt buying up Syncrude & Petro can, guess only so much money to go around then, Its also about the time I left for work in usa, as very little at home.

Would Have liked to seen that Arctic Lng program come to fruition. The whole debacle sounds like a repeat of the Avro Projects. No courage or vision in Ottawa, cant see the forset for the trees, all that in a town founded on the timber trade eh!

JoK
22nd December 2009, 14:21
Now we'll have to see if they can remember how to build a good icebreaker.
For all of the negative press CG gets, the icebreakers really are impressive. The Louis St Laurent is 40 years old and still going, the Larsen is over 20 years and a beauty. I never could understand why a bigger Larsen was never built.
The ships were built to LR rules plus 10%.

mrcanoehead
22nd December 2009, 15:16
They have to out and hire the design engineers again, build the yards & fund the whole project without political influences... then maby they can grow agin hopfully not to be cut off at the knees for any supersillious reasons. love to see it happen.

mrcanoehead
31st December 2009, 22:19
About the Saski pie, Canada Marquis, & Seilkirk Settler..Did they Have radio officers on them durring atlantic voyages, theres a story i heard about them when they were being built , their was a protest in uk by the Ro's union & no support but two Ro's working in canada. They Made the inital voyage over to canada with no RO. They were transmitting on the emergy frqz & it souded like a bunch of idiots running the ships, is this true!

mrcanoehead
31st December 2009, 22:22
NF VCWG SELKIRK SETTLER
Built 1983
Misener Transportation Limited
Bulk Carrier
Became:
VOSL SPRUCEGLEN (owned by Canada Steamship Lines)
There were three of these bulk carriers built in Scotland. The three were built in 1983 and all three were
sisters of 21,548 Gross Tons. The three were:
VCWJ CANADA MARQUIS
VCWK SASKATCHEWAN PIONEER
VCWG SELKIRK SETTLER
The British Radio and Electronics‟ Officers Union was going to put up a picket around the shipyard that
built these three in an attempt to make them comply with International Law and fit them with a proper radio
room, radio station and carry a certified radio officer. When the British union realized there was only Paul
du Mesnil and I here in Canada trying to do something about this they said to hell with it and gave up. It is
amazing that these three relatively small ships were able to find a cargo that permitted them to sail across
the Atlantic Ocean. The whole Atlantic Ocean could hear the “nuts” sailing these three. They were passing
chapter and verse from the bible like the Canadian Navy did during World War II. The Navy did it via
signal lights and few if any could copy the messages. These clowns did it on the international calling and
distress frequency of 2182 kilohertz so the whole Atlantic could hear them.
SELKIRK SETTLER was owned by Canada Steamship Lines and named the SPRUCEGLEN in 2007 with
call sign VOSL. SASKATCHEWAN PIONEER had a British international call sign, GNBD for awhile and
then a Bahamas international call sign C6KP9 for awhile. The last I heard SASKATCHEWAN PIONEER
was registered in Hong Kong as VOYAGEUR PIONEER. CANADA MARQUIS belonged to Canada
Steamship Lines and was named the BIRCHGLEN in 2007 with call sign VOTT. One wonders why the
two still registered in Canada did not retain their original call signs, but both were probably registered
outside Canada at one time.