Ship goes down off Lebanese coast (BBC News)

SN NewsCaster
17th December 2009, 20:50
Rescuers search for about 80 people after a Uruguayan ship capsized off the northern Lebanese coast during stormy weather.

More from BBC News... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/news/int/search/news%2Bsport/ship/-/2/hi/middle_east/8419552.stm)

andysk
17th December 2009, 22:08
See also : http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20091217/twl-race-to-rescue-crew-of-capsized-ship-3cd7efd.html

SN NewsCaster
18th December 2009, 11:10
Rescuers are still looking for 41 people missing after a ship carrying a cargo of livestock sank of the Lebanese coast.

More from BBC News... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/news/int/search/news%2Bsport/ship/-/2/hi/middle_east/8420146.stm)

Klaatu83
18th December 2009, 17:38
Can a ship hold 43,000 sheep in humane conditions?

The answer to that is ABSOLUTELY NOT! Most people in the civilized world have never seen one of these sort of ships, and probably aren't aware that such vessels even exist. However, I have seen them. You often run across them in the Middle East loaded with cattle, sheep, goats or even camels. For those unfamiliar with these floating monstrosities, they resemble roll-on-roll-off ships, except that the ships' sides are more open, like the sides of a cattle truck.

The stench is ABSOLUTELY APPALLING! Words aren't adequate to express how strong the odor emanating from one of these ships actually is. Suffice it to say that you wouldn't want to approach within a quarter of a mile of the ship. I can't imagine how the crew stand it, but I suppose one can get used to anything. A Filipino crew member I talked to told me the money was good, and that seemed to be all he cared about.

As for the animals, the Filipino crew member I spoke to told me his ship picked up 35,000 head of sheep in Australia and that there were 28,000 still alive by the time they docked in Iran. Not that the Iranians cared, they accepted the dead animals as well as the living. I know because I saw them load the dead sheep into trucks and drive them away.

This method of transporting livestock is one of those appalling phenomena, like human trafficking and female circumcision, that seems to go on all the time in the Third World, and of which the Civilized World seemingly remains completely unaware. I'm frankly astonished to hear that this ship had a British captain. I didn't know any British seamen were desperate enough to accept employment on one of these Hell-Ships.

Peter B
18th December 2009, 18:40
I absolutely agree; this is NOT a way of treating animals - or crew, for that matter - that should be accepted in a civilized world.
I remember seeing these vessels often in the APG area in the early eighties (I,m sure they're still there, but I am not).
Remember being anchored next to one off Kuwait for six days in August 1980. The heat and smell was intense, and dead sheep were thrown overboard by the hundreds, slowly floating by us, bloated like zeppeliners.
Finally, after six days in hell, we were going into the harbour, only to see the ship from hell following three hours later, dock right behind us and starting to unload her 55,000 sheep!
What is the point of hauling live sheep from Australia to the Middle East, just to slaughter them immediately upon arrival? Wouldn't it make more sense to transport the processed meat instead?

johnb42
19th December 2009, 01:24
A truly sickening event in a vile and inhuman trade.

zelo1954
19th December 2009, 01:57
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Danny_F_II

This seems a factual account of the ship and incident. There are references within

muldonaich
19th December 2009, 02:21
A truly sickening event in a vile and inhuman trade.i fully agree i have made my feelings known on the site before about this mode of transport for animals the australian govement should hang their head in shame shipping out these poor animals to people who treat their women even worse as was the case in the uk today kev.

MARINEJOCKY
19th December 2009, 02:36
I watched a program yesterday about a ship that can carry 16,000 head of cattle (not sure the number of sheep) but it was far from cruel.

The animals were inspected in Aussie before they were loaded, there were quite a number of men dedicated to looking after them onboard with huge vent fans and ducts and these changed the air 3 times more often that the air changed on an airplane.

The Food was served via a computer controlled chute and water was readily available.

The ship arrived in port and every thing was again checked and it was reported that only one cow died out of slightly over 16,000.

As a kid I worked on cattle trucks, those animals were packed as tight as possible into the back and they knew when they got close to a slaughter house.

I was in the Gulf and we always tried to anchor down wind from a sheep carrier due to the number of dead animals that were thrown over the side but then the tide would turn and those carcass's would float over to out ship.

None of it pretty but if you eat meat........

muldonaich
19th December 2009, 02:43
I watched a program yesterday about a ship that can carry 16,000 head of cattle (not sure the number of sheep) but it was far from cruel.

The animals were inspected in Aussie before they were loaded, there were quite a number of men dedicated to looking after them onboard with huge vent fans and ducts and these changed the air 3 times more often that the air changed on an airplane.

The Food was served via a computer controlled chute and water was readily available.

The ship arrived in port and every thing was again checked and it was reported that only one cow died out of slightly over 16,000.

As a kid I worked on cattle trucks, those animals were packed as tight as possible into the back and they knew when they got close to a slaughter house.

I was in the Gulf and we always tried to anchor down wind from a sheep carrier due to the number of dead animals that were thrown over the side but then the tide would turn and those carcass's would float over to out ship.

None of it pretty but if you eat meat........im sure what you say is true but then the poor animals walked ashore and got their throats cut it could be done in a humane way you cannot make an excuse for this treatmeant of animals in this day and age kev.

Cisco
19th December 2009, 03:58
im sure what you say is true but then the poor animals walked ashore and got their throats cut it could be done in a humane way you cannot make an excuse for this treatmeant of animals in this day and age kev.

Well, farmers still cut the throats of sheep and cattle when they kill em down on the farm. Its only in the slaughterhouses that captive bolts are used ( immediately before the throat is slit to bleed the animal as its hind legs are hoisted skywards and it shuffles off down the chain) and I would suggest that that isn't a lot of fun either.

Don't like it? Then stop eating meat.

johnb42
19th December 2009, 09:49
I can't speak for all parts of the Middle East, but there is some sickening footage on Youtube of Australian cattle being slaughtered in Egypt. The transportation from the ship to the abattoir is bad enough, but inside the abattoir cattle have their eyeballs slashed to get them into the killing hall, they then have the tendons of their back legs slashed to get them down and finally have their throats cut.
Don't like it? No I don't, which is why I stopped eating meat 23 years ago.

Brian Dobbie
19th December 2009, 10:32
This ship is called the Danny F 2, the Danny F was owned by Raschid Fares, the same company that owned the Fares Reefer (ex NZSC's Westmoreland).
At one stage the ships were manned by Common Brothers (Newcastle). They were regular callers at Bandar Abbas.
The Aussies, at that time, had some rule about numbers of live sheep allowed to be transported against frozen sheep. Perhaps this was to protect Aussie jobs.

Brian

nhp651
19th December 2009, 10:44
I can't believe that a civilised country like australia, which is taking two contestants in "I'm a celeb, get me out of here" for killing and eating a rat, can actually allow companies to load ships like this with such degredation..what are the government and the Oz quivalent of the RSPCA doing.

MARINEJOCKY
19th December 2009, 11:09
Discussing it over a bottle of wine and a steak (*))

Cisco
19th December 2009, 11:25
And how exactly is sending sheep by sea any worse or even as bad as factory farming chooks, ducks , pigs, beefs, etc etc.....

Ever wonder what quality of life the hen that laid the egg that you had for breakfast this AM has? Oh.. what was that...? Oh OK ... thats different.. Oh OK.. whatever..

Cisco
19th December 2009, 11:27
And also... try flying long haul economy with Aerolineas Argentinas and then talk to me about cruelty to dumb animals.. :(

Doug Shaw
19th December 2009, 11:44
I can't believe that a civilised country like australia (http://I%20can%27t%20believe%20that%20a%20civilised%20cou ntry%20like%20australia)

Thank you, but I wonder how truly civilised we are. The following is an extract from an article by Clover Moore, Sydney's Lord Mayor, that appeared in The Sydney Morning Herald on 15 Dec 2009.

"Australians may think of themselves as animal lovers, yet our laws allow many animals to suffer a lifetime of cruelty in the name of profit.

We are well behind world's best practice in this area, particularly [behind] Europe."

Here, millions of farmed animals such as pigs or chickens are still confined in restrictive cages that prevent them from moving, caring for their young, or acting out their innate instincts. They are forced to endure painful procedures such as de-beaking and castration."

Even companion animals like dogs are farmed en masse in cruel puppy farms and backyard breeding facilities to supply cheap puppies to pet shops and through classifieds. Dogs are kept in filthy conditions, bred continuously and then discarded."

The complete article, in which she talks about the live export trade, can be found here (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/why-we-must-ban-export-of-live-sheep-20091216-kvvm.html).

While there is some opposition to the live export trade here, it stands little chance against the power of the agricultural lobby and its quest for export income.

The RSPCA in Australia is a joke. While it does nothing to prevent the live export trade, battery farming and so on, it has put forward a proposal that dog owners should face fines of up to $12,000 and jail terms if they do not walk their animals at least once a day.

As Gandhi said, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated". Are we really, then, civilised?

Regards
Doug

spongebob
19th December 2009, 11:50
One of the reasons that the animals are transported live is so they can be slaughtered in true halal style, facing Mecca or whatever the ritual is.
Years ago the NZ Freezing works used to employ Muslim slaughter men on a special killing chain that met the religious ritual requirements before shipping the frozen carcasses to the middle East.

In the sixties and seventies NZ carried on a barter trade of Sheep for crude high sulphur oil from Iraq but that fell away in later years and the live animal transport took over as the main method
I have worked in these slaughterhouses as a lad and believe me there are no humane ways. Any animal can smell death from a mile off and they are tortured by it accordingly.

I recall our ship transporting two young live pedigree bulls up to Samoa as breeding stock and although they were penned in adequately sheltered circumstances on the ship's after deck and well fed and watered by the crew they both succumbed and the veterinary verdict was that the temperature change from Auckland's winter to the tropical heat in such a short time was too much plus the sheer trauma of it all.
I remember the sorrow we all felt after the event and I can well imagine the horror of large herds crammed into shipping space for long periods.

Bob

Doug Shaw
19th December 2009, 12:02
One of the reasons that the animals are transported live is so they can be slaughtered in true halal style, facing Mecca or whatever the ritual is.

Bob, that reason's not valid for Australia, which has at least 40 halal-accredited abattoirs.

Regards
Doug

dicamus
19th December 2009, 12:34
Picture of the vessel can be seen in my Gallery, taken in September at Gibraltar.
Cheers
Dick

slick
19th December 2009, 15:55
All,
A couple of British Nationals on board?

Yours aye,

Slick

muldonaich
19th December 2009, 18:49
Bob, that reason's not valid for Australia, which has at least 40 halal-accredited abattoirs.

Regards
Dougi rest my case it should be stopped tomorrow kev.

Cisco
19th December 2009, 20:35
Bob, that reason's not valid for Australia, which has at least 40 halal-accredited abattoirs.

Regards
Doug
Quitye a few years ago a mate of mine was working as a govment meat inspector at Portland, Vic. He reckons at one time they were slaughtering sheep with both an Imam and a Rabbi working on the sheep line... forequarters were halal, sternquarters kosher.....
I did not make this up.

spongebob
19th December 2009, 21:03
I have witnessed this meat trade first hand in the past and while there is never a really humane way to kill anything the old system of freezing works killing chains that efficiently dealt with millions of NZ ovines and bovines was as good as it could get.
They were killed, chilled and frozen under hygienic conditions before cramming them into the holds and tween deck lockers of refrigerated British merchant ships for export to the world markets and it is hard to believe that the live shipping of masses of animals across the world only to meet the same end fate has any merit other than to satisfy someone's religious belief.

Bob

Cisco
19th December 2009, 22:57
....is hard to believe that the live shipping of masses of animals across the world only to meet the same end fate has any merit other than to satisfy someone's religious belief.

Bob

As mentioned before they can be slaughtered Halal in Oz or where ever. I thought the reason for the trade was that the consumers in the Middle East a/ had an issue with eating frozen meat and/or b/ didn't have 'fridges and their meat had to go directo from hoof to plate.

spongebob
19th December 2009, 23:50
The meat was Halal killed and went to the middle east markets from NZ in a frozen state for at least 25 post war years before the live trade was introduced.
Iraq was our biggest customer after the UK market was restricted by the ECC rules.
Sure it might be killed and distributed without freezing in the destination country but the meat quality would be somewhat deteriorated by the voyage. Frozen meat was not objected to in the past so the root need for live animal transport by ship must have a religious base at the expense of the animals' welfare.

Bob

muldonaich
20th December 2009, 00:54
The meat was Halal killed and went to the middle east markets from NZ in a frozen state for at least 25 post war years before the live trade was introduced.
Iraq was our biggest customer after the UK market was restricted by the ECC rules.
Sure it might be killed and distributed without freezing in the destination country but the meat quality would be somewhat deteriorated by the voyage. Frozen meat was not objected to in the past so the root need for live animal transport by ship must have a religious base at the expense of the animals' welfare.

Bobi do not think you are going to win cisco over i think he is a farmer lol kev.

Cisco
20th December 2009, 12:20
The meat was Halal killed and went to the middle east markets from NZ in a frozen state for at least 25 post war years before the live trade was introduced.
Iraq was our biggest customer after the UK market was restricted by the ECC rules.
Bob
Interesting... I think in the early 60's the sum total of reefer capacity between Australia and the P Gulf was Bulimba and the other 3 BI 'B' boats.. willing to stand corrected on that.

Yes Kev I have been known to run a few beefs on the north forty.. I would like to think that I can still take a humane view on livestock management.. my views towards the cow that sent me ar*se over calabash in my yards last Monday and put me in hospital with concussion aren't that humane mind you...

Interesting asides... guvment policies in Argentina now mean the country is producing less beef than Uruguay and may be an importer within a few years... meanwhile the Swift coy in Brazil are slaughtering 26,000 beefs a day....

spongebob
20th December 2009, 13:10
Cisco, I am quoting New Zealand trade with Iraq, not Australian. Different Countries different meat by far. s I recall it was mostly mutton trade not lamb or even Hogget.
Most of it was on a sheep meat for oil barter and the high sulphur crude was a bane of the NZ Refining Co's life.

Bob

chadburn
20th December 2009, 13:11
I think it's more to do with the buying and shipping "in bulk" of live animal's, it being cheaper than freezer shipping cost's. like most thing's a certain amount of "loss" is expected and catered for, Argentina in my view has never fully recovered in regards to the GB market since Aberdeen and Fray Bentos, it put me off Corned Beef for years after that outbreak.

MARINEJOCKY
20th December 2009, 13:46
The following is quoted from "Landline" the Australian National Rural Affairs Weekly newspaper.

"
The largest livestock carrier ever built is about to leave Fremantle bound for the Middle East.

The M-V Becruz can carry 70,000 sheep and 16,000 cattle.

The ship's owners say it's been designed to give livestock more room.

"We think it is more important in modern days that we put animal welfare and environmental consideration in the forehead and leave everything behind it and economics and everything," Siba Ships spokesman Mauro Balzarini said.

"

If I can suggest that we, myself included have taken this thread well off course and should maybe either start a new one about lifestock transport or get back to the ship that went down and think about those seamen at this time of year especially.

chadburn
20th December 2009, 13:58
There is not a lot to say about the ship going down because we do not know the reason why it foundered barring for the fact of bad weather in the region and reports that it rolled over, we can all speculate but that would be unfair on the lost crew and passenger's bearing in mind the sad loss to their families at this time.

Mike S
20th December 2009, 14:00
It is all about money.........
Lets face it buying a modern container ship with enough slots to carry mostly frozen cargo would be very expensive. Buying a modern reefer would be even more so. If one existed.
Then man them with crew that can keep the meat frozen and run the machinery.
Then pay the high rates that the Oz/NZ meat workers are paid.
Then build the freezer stores in the Middle Eastern ports.
Then establish a distribution network to deliver the meat to the market.
Then persuade the Mullahs that it is OK for them to eat the stuff.......!
Against that you buy a second hand clapped out old car carrier and convert her to carrying life animals.
The cargo walks on board for you.
You need to employ cheap labour to water and feed them.
They walk off at the other and.
Getting the idea folks? As you can see I spent my formative years deep sea carrying frozen cargo. I spent most of my working life in Australia in the Port of Fremantle and these ships were regular callers. When they arrive they are spotless. They have vets on board for the voyage to the Middle East. They lose some animals of course and they do stink. They stink to high heaven even when they are loading. Sheep stink.........sorry but that is a fact of life! Cows and methane.........wow.....we used to be berthed down wind of these things on the tugs and we used to joke as we came back to the berth "Ah loves the smell of methane in the morning!" A parady of the line from "Good Morning Vietnam"
Stopping the trade. If we don't ship these animals under strict controls from Oz/NZ they they will get them from South America. Their rules are far more lax than ours.
I do not like the trade one bit but spouting off emotive remarks without actually studying the situation is not helpful.
The alternative is to let the Middle East go hungry........or becoming civilized!

MARINEJOCKY
20th December 2009, 17:47
Mike S,

There I was enjoying reading your post and then why spoil it by suggesting that the Middle East is not civilized just becuase they eat meat.

The program I watched about the ship taking animals from Aussie also showed the cows and water buffalo being taken to Indonesia, is that country also Un-civilized.

Those animals were not to be slaughtered but where taken there for breeding purposes.

Mike S
21st December 2009, 05:58
Of course not...I was referring to the way that some of the people of the Middle East treat the animals once they are there. The way they treat the animals at times leaves a lot to be desired.
Wrong choice of words but that was what I was thinking at the time. Thanks for pointing out the misleading reference.

As for the Indons of course not. A more gentle and friendly bunch you would be hard put to find anywhere even if they are rather prone to the exchange of the odd bit of cash at times! Their civilization pre dates us by centuries in many places. There are of course some exceptions to the general rule and it seems that they differ broadly from island to island.

spongebob
21st December 2009, 09:34
That's a good up to date explanation Mike.
I guess that my argument is relying on experience and knowledge from 40 years ago and I guess that A/NZ labour, even using local Halal butchers, plus the reefer ship and attendant shore facilities, cool rooms etc would stack up expensive against putting the animals aboard a second hand old ship converted for the purpose.
I still say that it is unkind to say the least, to the animals to have to endure those extra weeks of captivity in an environment that is so totally foreign to them but having said that the African slaves sent to America and the early convicts sent to Australia suffered the same treatment but the difference was that they were allowed to survive the outcome.

Bob

marco nista
21st December 2009, 10:37
The shippers of live sheep are only responding to commercial demand & the production of animals for the trade is major part of the economy in Aussie & NZ & other producing countries.
Obviously the more sheep that can be carried the lower the transport costs per animal & the greater the profit for all concerned.

As to slaughtering techniques around the world it is almost impossible to change entrenched practices, particularly where 'Big Money' or religion is involved.

I speak with the confidence of ignorance but I was once told that Saudi Arabia is in fact a major exporter of frozen mutton.

Apparently during the 'Haj' pilgrimage to Mecca it is necessary that pilgrims sacrifice a sheep at various stages of their journey.

Nowadays with the vast increase of pilgrims it is obviously impractical for the sacrifice to take place 'at the roadside' as it were so the pilgrims buy a chitty that that certifies that a sheep will be slaughtered on their behalf at a state-run abbatoir.

This means that there is a requirement for live sheep imports into Saudi far in excess of local needs so the surplus meat is exported to less-prosperous Muslim countries, often as 'aid'

I've not researched this so perhaps someone with more knowledge of the trade & the religion could expand on this.

On the same subject I remember when I worked on Mobil tankers in the mid-60s going to Kiwi's first oil refinery at Marsden Point near Whangarei & sending in a long stores list which included mutton & this was always ordered as 'MK Mutton' [Muslim-Killed Mutton] for our Goanese & Pakistani crew.

As there was no MK Mutton available the Serang [Bosun] was sent up to the local freezing works to do the actual slaughtering.

73s

Marco

chadburn
21st December 2009, 10:41
It's not unknown for the ugly but functional car carrier type of ship design to roll over or run aground and roll over in bad weather if they lose the main engine, there have been a number in the past.

Michael Taylor
21st December 2009, 14:08
We recently sold some young male cattle for export from our farm here in Uruguay. The animals were inspected on our property to ensure they were not only healthy but "looked good". When questioned was informed that they would go possibly to Jordan....would be interesting to find out if the poor things are now at the bottom of the Med!