coroners report/inquest findings

rexy
20th March 2010, 13:27
I wonder if you can help. I am currently researching my family tree and I am looking for an Inquest or Coroners report about my grandfather. He was JAMES ALFRED ROBINSON and he lived in GRIMSBY in Lincs. He was killed in an accident at sea on March 6th 1937 having been struck by a lifeboat or lifeboat davit.The incident happened at UTSKALAR off the coast of Iceland on board the trawler NORTHERN REWARD, LO 168, which sailed out of Fleetwood, According to an article I have found in the FLEETWOOD CHRONICLE I believe dated 12th March 1937, his body was returned to Fleetwood aboard the trawler NORTHERN DUKE and an inquest was due to be held that day into the circumstances of his death. I havent a clue where to search for such details so is it possible for you to help in where I can attain such a document.I have written to the Lancashire records office but they dont have any records before 1954.
Thank you rexy

ray1buck1
20th March 2010, 16:33
rexy
If the body was landed in Fleetwood then a death certificate would be issued in that towns register office, which would be needed to have an internment. even if the burial is some place else (If a body is buried at sea there will not be a death cert:) if there was to be an inquest that also would be held in the place of landing the body,

Ray

Roger Griffiths
20th March 2010, 18:45
Ray,
I cannot find this man death registered for any quarter in 1937. Am I missing something here?


regards
Roger

ray1buck1
21st March 2010, 16:55
Roger
Neither could I, perhaps he was landed some other port! it would narrow it down a bit with a DoB or age at death, nothing ties up with being registered in the 1st quarter of1937 perhaps the entry hasn’t as yet been transcribed

There are 34 James ROBINSON registered in 1937
one possible is Registered in Blackpool in Volume 8 e page 586 in the 3rd quarter he was aged 65 but wrong quarter

also James Robinson aged 47 registered Birkenhead in Volume 8a Page 584
again registered in Preston aged 19 volume 8e page 540

and one James A ROBINSON aged 71 registered in Bury St Edmunds in 1937

Ray

Pompeyfan
21st March 2010, 18:41
Rexy

If your grandfather was landed, he would have had a post mortem which have been the case even then when a person was killed by accident. A doctor cannot write a death certificate in such circumstances. In those days, all areas has public mortuaries, often even performing the post mortem at home with the local bobby assisting. Records would have no doubt gone long ago regarding the results of the post mortem, the report etc. However, it should still be amongst the Coroners records at some point. The coroner works on behalf of local councils paid for by them. Public mortuaries were council owned. They still exist but within hospitals, the council paying for the services. I was in charge of a hospital/public mortuary.

I would begin with the Grimsby Coroners Officer or Fleetwood if they have one or ring the Senior Technician at your local hospital mortuary who may try to help you. I certainly would have done had it been on my patch. However, my records did not cover the old public mortuary before it was transferred to mine. But something should be somewhere. It is just knowing where to look for it. But as have already been said, if buried at sea, there may be no records. But if landed, coroners rules dictate a post mortem must be held to establish cause of death.

David

Roger Griffiths
21st March 2010, 18:51
It would seem that the report in the Fleetwood newspaper concerning an inquest would be somewhat erroneous.
James Alfred Robinson is entered in the Deaths at Sea Register so it follows there would be no death certificate. There may have been an inquiry into his death but that is a different matter. That said DAS among fishermen was a very common occurance and if his body was landed there may have been a cursery Post Mortem, but an inquiry?
I have attached the relevent page from the DASR. Information courtesy of Billy McGee.

Rexy, you could look at the vessels logbook for the exact cause of death but I doubt it will tell you much more than you already know.


Roger

ray1buck1
21st March 2010, 19:45
Rexy
“Northern Reward” official No 165357 steam trawler built 1936
The log and crew agreement should be in the NUM Newfoundland Canada
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=165357

Should you wish to order the appropriate log
http://www.mun.ca/mha/about/orderagreements.php

Ray

rexy
22nd March 2010, 14:22
I wonder if you can help. I am currently researching my family tree and I am looking for an Inquest or Coroners report about my grandfather. He was JAMES ALFRED ROBINSON and he lived in GRIMSBY in Lincs. He was killed in an accident at sea on March 6th 1937 having been struck by a lifeboat or lifeboat davit.The incident happened at UTSKALAR off the coast of Iceland on board the trawler NORTHERN REWARD, LO 168, which sailed out of Fleetwood, According to an article I have found in the FLEETWOOD CHRONICLE I believe dated 12th March 1937, his body was returned to Fleetwood aboard the trawler NORTHERN DUKE and an inquest was due to be held that day into the circumstances of his death. I havent a clue where to search for such details so is it possible for you to help in where I can attain such a document.I have written to the Lancashire records office but they dont have any records before 1954.
Thank you rexy

Thanks for the responses

Think I may have posted half a reply.....just getting used to the touch pad on my new pc sorry if I did.
My reply in full...hopefully- My grandfather James Alfred Robinson was born on 25/03/1896 in Pelham Street Grimsby. I have a copy of his birth certificate. My post contains a reference to an article in Fleetwood Chronicle which I stated. His widow, my grandmother along with the bishop of Grimsbys seamans mission travelled to Fleetwood to collect his body for burial in Grimsby. I have the burial record identifying the exact location in Grimsby's Scartho Rd cemetry.There were articles in the local paper(Grimsby telegraph) reference the incident dated 8th March 1937 but they for some reason identify him as H Robinson. I too would have thought there would be an inquiry or coroners report or post mortem hence my original post but I would have though that the only witnesses to such an inquiry were still at sea on Northern Reward. Think I will try local reg office. Library gave me copies of the local papers report but suggested I try Fleetwood. Catch 22
Thanks Rexy

Pompeyfan
22nd March 2010, 17:37
It would seem that the report in the Fleetwood newspaper concerning an inquest would be somewhat erroneous.
James Alfred Robinson is entered in the Deaths at Sea Register so it follows there would be no death certificate. There may have been an inquiry into his death but that is a different matter. That said DAS among fishermen was a very common occurance and if his body was landed there may have been a cursery Post Mortem, but an inquiry?
I have attached the relevent page from the DASR. Information courtesy of Billy McGee.

Rexy, you could look at the vessels logbook for the exact cause of death but I doubt it will tell you much more than you already know.


Roger

There would be no such thing as a cursory post mortem shore side not even in 1937. Those of us who performed post mortems at sea did only a minimal post mortem, but not shore side, even then. The death would have been reported to the coroner covering the area where the body was landed. The coroner would then appoint a doctor to perform the post mortem which today would always be an Histopathologist (pathologist), and a technician like myself. Even in 1937, coroners rules stated that all bodies dying in such a manner was an automatic post mortem and usually an inquest. In fact, the rule still in force today that a doctor cannot issue a death certificate if not seeing the person for 14 days was in force then. Coroners rules are very strict.

There would have been no death certificate because there is no death certificate issued after a coroners post mortem, not even today. The coroner issues his/her own sending it direct to the registrar of births and deaths. Relatives never see it, but register in the normal way when asked to do so. And a doctor would have been allowed to sign one for medico legal reasons. If cremation for example, the coroners issues a form E.

Rexy

I would still look into where the nearest public mortuary was to where your grandfather was landed. In those days, public mortuaries only handled coroners(Council) cases. Every Town had one, and cities more than one. Today, I do not think there are any public only mortuaries. All are within a hospital complex like mine was. Have you also tried the local Seaman's Mission?.

David

ray1buck1
22nd March 2010, 18:27
David
Would the death still be recorded in the deaths register, as normally required? i.e in the first quarter January - March of 1937, I always understood that you required a Death Cert to have a burial / cremation.
Ray

ray1buck1
22nd March 2010, 18:31
Rexy
A Further possible line of inquiry would be to obtain the log of the “NORTHERN DUKE” for the date concerned,
The official No for the “NORTHERN DUKE” is 165366 I would have thought that there should be some record in the log of one of the vessels if not both of the incident and cause and a entry as to the body was landed and put in who’s care
http://www.mun.ca/mha/holdings/viewcombinedcrews.php?Official_No=165366

Ray

Pompeyfan
23rd March 2010, 23:14
David
Would the death still be recorded in the deaths register, as normally required? i.e in the first quarter January - March of 1937, I always understood that you required a Death Cert to have a burial / cremation.
Ray

Yes, it would be, and if a post mortem, in the register of the mortuary which as I said would have been a public mortuary run by the council, not within a hospital as they are now. When a corners case, there is no death certificate. The coroner issues his/her own certificate for burial or cremation. Cremation is a form E. The relatives never see this. They simply register the death in the normal way when informed to do so.

David

Duncan112
24th March 2010, 07:44
Bit of a long shot but someone at Fleetwood Museum may be able to help - they have extensive information relating to the town's fishing history - well worth a visit if anyone is in the area. (North Euston good value for a pub lunch too!)

ray1buck1
24th March 2010, 09:13
Thank for clearing that point David,
I have searched the death register for 1937 under all the Christian names given and age within couple of years either way but not found anything in either area referred too, it could be that it hasn’t been transcribed or miss-transcribed , or been omitted,
as Duncan says it might be well worth Rexy contacting the museum
Ray