Clarke Chaman Totally Enclosed Steam Winches (As fitted to GLENMOOR)

Shipbuilder
13th April 2010, 19:17
I am sure someone will know the answer to this one. What did a Totally Enclosed Clarke-Chapman Steam Cargo Winch look like? They were fitted on Runciman's GLENMOOR of 1953 (and her sisters), but the plan is very sketchy, just showing a box with a drum on each end and something like a wire reel between the drums!
Bob

slick
14th April 2010, 07:40
Shipbuilder,
We used to call them "Oil Bath Winches" - rated as the best of the lot, sorry I can be of no help as to look, but rthe impression was of a box with drum at each end is about right.
Yours aye,

slick

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 08:17
Thanks Slick,
That is a help and I am carrying on with my research on the subject. In the meantime, do you think this is the sort of thing? If I put a drum on the other end, it does resemble what the plan shows on the GLENMOOR and I can only think the derrick wire on GLENMOOR went to a central drum like this one on the LANE VICTORY
Bob.
http://www.lanevictory.org/ProductionImages/winch.jpg

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 08:29
Further to the above, this is a section of the plan showing two of the winches.
Bob

Billieboy
14th April 2010, 08:43
Thanks Slick,
That is a help and I am carrying on with my research on the subject. In the meantime, do you think this is the sort of thing? If I put a drum on the other end, it does resemble what the plan shows on the GLENMOOR and I can only think the derrick wire on GLENMOOR went to a central drum like this one on the LANE VICTORY
Bob.
http://www.lanevictory.org/ProductionImages/winch.jpg

The link shows an electric winch; a clarke chapman oil bath winch, runs on steam, so one would have steam pipes running to and from the winch.

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 08:51
Thanks,
I thought maybe a steamship (LANE VICTORY) would have steam winches, but thinking back to my first ship, C3 steamer RHODESIA STAR, we had electric winches as well! Will just have to carry on looking.
Bob

Supergoods
14th April 2010, 09:23
There were four of them on the Mahanada at No 3 hatch, immediatly above the apprentices cabin which made for some sleepless nights when working cargo 24 hours.

The basic layout was similar to the standard steam winch with most of the working parts enclosed in the oil tight? enclosure

The cylinders were outside to give access to the packings with the valves inside the enclosure.

They were also known as "Silent Steam" which was not quite true but certainly quieter than the open model.

The sound was more a thump thump in synchronisation with the pistons

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 09:48
Thanks,
I am currently making a miniature of GLENMOOR that was fitted with them, but really need a plan or a photogtrapgh of one so I can make a fair guess at accuracy. I will start trawling through my technical books (Shipbuilding & Shippin Record etc), there is probably an illustrated article somewhere on them.
Bob

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 11:39
I eventually found an aerial view of a ship fitted with this type of steam winch. They seem to have round casings covering the gears. I have just thrown this together from brass. Does it look right, or am I miles off?
Please disregard any clumsiness about it because it is extremely small and I am just trying to get the general design correct before making the final ten winches.
Bob

K urgess
14th April 2010, 11:46
For some reason there's a full page Clarke Chapman advert in Talbot-Booth's 1942 edtion but not in the 49/50 edition and I can't find a postwar advert by them in anything, not even Motor Ship.
The 1942 advert shows just a standard open frame steam winch.
Sorry to be so negative. I could've sworn I'd seen more Clarke Chapman adverts than that but they all appear to be prewar. (Sad)
Kris

K urgess
14th April 2010, 11:57
As an addendum to the above.
The attached is a very fuzzy scan of the foredeck of PSNC's Cotopaxi.
A steamship and judging by the guards along the side of the hatch coaming she had steam on deck, possibly to the winches.
She was built in the 50's so the winches may be similair to those you're looking for.
Cheers
Kris

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 12:11
Thanks,
I have just looked in the 1942 Talbot-Booth and see what you mean. I find it very surprising there are no images on the interent that I can find. The COTOPAXI winch look like the type. I think in my last effort, the base needs to be thicker.
Bob

John Briggs
14th April 2010, 14:12
Have a look at this thread where you can see two winches,
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/212504/title/a-beam-swell/cat/all
This thread also shows a winch (under the grab),
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/216482/title/thames-breeze/cat/all

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 15:03
Thanks John,
That helps a lot. I seem to have got the drums and casings OK, but just have to fit more square casings behind them.
Bob

Supergoods
14th April 2010, 15:21
These are definately the winches in John Brigs post as I remember them.

I think they were marketed as "Silent Steam" rather the "Enclosed Oil Bath"

joebuckham
14th April 2010, 18:24
Thanks John,
That helps a lot. I seem to have got the drums and casings OK, but just have to fit more square casings behind them.
Bob

bob , i seem to remember that a section of eng, room type plate ran across the back of the winch, covering the cylinders. a tractor type seat and a footbrake on the side with the usual "L" shaped control handle (Thumb)

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 19:03
OK Joe,
Thanks for further info. I think I can make a passable winch now and I will post a picture of the first one before making the other nine.
Have been filling time with hull construction this afternoon whilst waiting for winch info. There was no particular reason for me deciding to build GLENMOOR, just liked the general look of her. Maybe she could have been improved in looks by having the funnel a bit further forward, but after all, it is the demands of the engine rather than the looks that dictate this sort of thing!
Bob

joebuckham
14th April 2010, 20:03
hi bob, quick sketch of very sketchy memory of controls of oil bath winch hope this helps

best regards

sorry bob

nautibuoy42
14th April 2010, 20:40
If you can find or borrow a copy of The Theory and Practice of Seamanship by Graham Danton, there are excellent pics of the Clarke Chapman Steam Winch and Steam Windlass

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 20:41
Hi Joe,
Thanks, I can follow that quite well. I am all ready to make one tomorrow.
Bob

Shipbuilder
14th April 2010, 21:02
Nautiboy42
Thanks. I have just located a copy on Amazon for a mere one pound and ordered it!
Thanks for all your help.
Bob

jjp
14th April 2010, 21:26
Did a couple of trips on the Glenmoor (cadet) in 1968 & her sister ship the Hazelmoor
(3rd Mate).The sketch and your rough model are a good representation of the winch
and i do rember the tractor seat well.

K urgess
15th April 2010, 10:47
The attached is from the August 1953 edition of Motor Ship.
Although it shows the electric version the models can't have been all that different and it may give you some detail.
There's not a single advert for steam winches in this edition of Motor Ship.

Billieboy
15th April 2010, 11:01
The attached is from the August 1953 edition of Motor Ship.
Although it shows the electric version the models can't have been all that different and it may give you some detail.
There's not a single advert for steam winches in this edition of Motor Ship.

Well, there wouldn't be would there! Most motor men don't know how to make steam!

Shipbuilder
15th April 2010, 11:15
Thanks,
My set of The Motor Ship from 1933 to 1966 are bound, so the adverts have been taken out. I think the drums and casings are probably similar to the steam version, but the motor set at right angles would probably have been replaced by cylinders on each side. Anyway, when the above-mentioned book arrives, all should be very clear, although thanks to the above replies, I have formed what is probably a fairly accurate picture of what it will be like in my mind!

Years ago, I was in the habit of photographing individual items of deck equipment on most of the 19 ships I sailed in, but unfortunately, although seven of them were steamers, the whole 19 had electric winches!

I have looked through my Shipbuilding & Shipping Records and The Shipping World, but not found anything there either. Still have some Shipbuilder & Marine Engine Buolder volumes to go through. In the meantime, I have plenty to do with the hull, having just fitted the sea in the base, I can now finalise the hull shaping. I have already made the hatches and a load of cowl ventilators.

Amazing there is nothing on the internet. We must accept that interest in the old MN is fading rapidly now. All my many bound technical volumes have come from libraries that were downsizing and getting rid of unwanted volumes that now apparently hold very little interest to the British public.

Bob

K urgess
15th April 2010, 11:23
Apologies, having checked more closely there are some steam adverts in the publication.
Anyone know if there was a sister magazine called "The Steam Ship"?

Shipbuilder
15th April 2010, 11:23
Billieboy

That is where I initially went wrong. I wasn't paying attention, I assumed the winches would be electric as the ship was a motorship. Then, after making ten electic winches, I was perusing the engine-room plans (The Motor Ship, March, 1953) and spotted a damn great Scotch Boiler 13' 6" in diameter and a smaller Cochran Boiler with an 8' dimater. Then reading further into the spec. as to what they wanted all the steam for, I came across the steam winches!

We live and learn.

Bob

Shipbuilder
15th April 2010, 11:29
Marconi,
I think steam was more than adequately covered in Shipbuilding & Shipping Record, Shipbuilder & Marine Engine Builder and The Shipping World. I think The Shipping World journal eventually took over the original Shipbuilder as well as Shipbuilding & Shipping Record and Shipbuilder & Marine Engine Builder. The Shipping World still exist today and have been very helpful to me in allowing use of their plans in the old journals, as has The Motor Ship.
Bob

K urgess
15th April 2010, 12:14
Someone should write a book.
Something like "From Sky Hooks to Box Clamps - A Definitive History of Merchant Ships' Cargo Handling Equipment".
Before it all gets lost forever.
Can you imagine trying to find all this information after we've all gone? (Sad)

John Briggs
15th April 2010, 12:16
One final photo for you Shipbuilder..... On this one you can see the seat behind the winchman and also the steam spindle used for opening and closing the steam valve. The lever for reversing the winch is low down to the right of the driver.
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/87286/title/loading-logs/cat/all

Shipbuilder
15th April 2010, 13:02
Thanks John,
That is very clear, I assume the cylinder ends stick out on the opposite side.
----
The knowledge is still all out there, but it can be difficult bringing it all together. For years I thought that my thousands of negatives had been a complete waste of time because it was too much expense and effort to print them all. Now, in this modern age, I have disposed of my enlarger and can enhance and print the negatives on the computer and store them aways into appropriate folders.

How do you like this one that I took of the windlass aboard FREDERICK T. EVERARD in 1962? The mate (personally) obligingly painted the cables white earlier that afternoon and then told me it was ready for photographing. Never did see such a fine windless ever again!

Publishers are no longer particularly interested in nautical books these days, but it matters not as E-books are the coming thing and most home PCs can be used to make them as long as one has a bottomless pit of negatives to use!

Bob

Billieboy
15th April 2010, 14:49
Billieboy

That is where I initially went wrong. I wasn't paying attention, I assumed the winches would be electric as the ship was a motorship. Then, after making ten electic winches, I was perusing the engine-room plans (The Motor Ship, March, 1953) and spotted a damn great Scotch Boiler 13' 6" in diameter and a smaller Cochran Boiler with an 8' dimater. Then reading further into the spec. as to what they wanted all the steam for, I came across the steam winches!

We live and learn.

Bob

Bob, in the post war boom of the tramp ship, it was almost standard to have a Dirty Doxford and all steam auxiliaries in the engine room, Clarke Chapman winches and windlass were also steam driven. The steam plant was a two or three furnace scotch boiler and a vertical Cochrane exhaust gas boiler. Around 1955 winches became oil bath steam and very shortly afterwards, (some in '51-2), electric, usually DC then in the sixties AC.

chadburn
15th April 2010, 15:29
A fair number 1950's built Ore Carrier's (rather than General Cargo) had a Diesel main and steam auxilaries, still, it usually kept Weir's in business. Like other's I have worked on knuckle bruising steam winches, give me electric winches (or even the dreaded hydraulic) anytime.

Shipbuilder
15th April 2010, 16:46
I sailed in a couple of ore carriers, SAGAMORE (1957) and JOYA MCCANCE (1960 that later became ST. MARGARET). But pretty sure their few hatch opening winches were electric. Apart from RHODESIA STAR, the steamers I sailed in were all the big Castles.
Only sailed with hydraulics in BANDAMA (ex SILVERAVON), they gave a lot of trouble to duty eng. when loading logs 24 hours a day for a full month at Abidjan!
Bob

John Briggs
15th April 2010, 20:06
Good shot of the Everard vessel electric windlass Bob.
Looks like they had a bit of trouble housing the starboard anchor as there is a nice twist in the cable.

Shipbuilder
15th April 2010, 20:09
I hadn't noticed the twist in the cable before, but I do know that the starboard anchor was missing the top of one of it's flukes. I think about six inches had gone. I don't know how it happened. Maybe that was something to do with it.
Bob

eldersuk
15th April 2010, 23:42
Couple more pics for you from sunny Takoradi.

Derek

Shipbuilder
16th April 2010, 06:32
Thanks Derek,
That helps a lot with the positioning of the seat that I had been wondering about.
Bob

Supergoods
16th April 2010, 09:10
I see I was wrong in the position of the valve chests being inside the casings which are shown outside clearly in Dereck's photo.
There should be a space between the cylinders and the casing to allow for adjusting the packings to keep the cylinders steam tight.

I am presently "cruising" for pay on the Blue Marlin which is a modern motor ship which has two boilers for heating the heavy fuel used for the main engines to allow pumping and atomising

david freeman
19th April 2010, 14:28
You old timers do you recall more modern Chapman, Capstans that where steam turbine driven. Unusal design. Interesting. Installed on Br Bombader or others of the 50' class of steam tanker.

Billieboy
20th April 2010, 10:27
Worked on and built water hydraulic winches cranes capstans and windlasses, worked on oil hydraulic winches, windlasses and capstans, worked on and built steam reciprocating capstans, windlasses and winches, and the same with electrics and diesels.

I've worked on and with all sorts of turbine driven machinery; but never a steam turbine driven capstan, winch or windlass.

HALLLINE
23rd April 2010, 20:57
Shipbuilder, If you PM me with your address, I can send you copies of the drawings from the Clarke Chapman Referance book of parts, if you still require info.
The title is- Totally enclosed Splash Lubricated Steam Winch.
Dave

Shipbuilder
24th April 2010, 06:38
Dave,
Many thanks. I have sent you an e-mail.
Best wishes
Bob

MikeK
24th April 2010, 07:37
Couple more pics for you from sunny Takoradi.

Derek

Thanks Derek, your pics brought the memories back ! None of them particularly good mind you, but interesting !

Mike

michael charters
24th April 2010, 17:32
Thanks Derek, your pics brought the memories back ! None of them particularly good mind you, but interesting !

Mike
Just took my computer adrift to catch the ant running ariund inside the screen. Mike you have bugs in your system.

Shipbuilder
24th April 2010, 19:08
For anyone interested, here is the progress to date. Most of today was spent waiting for paint to dry. I have already made the hatches, so they will go on tomorrow.
Bob

MikeK
25th April 2010, 08:09
Just took my computer adrift to catch the ant running ariund inside the screen. Mike you have bugs in your system.

That's fine by me Michael ! It has been running around in my brain for ages and I wondered where it had gone. Must have escaped when I had the headphones on for Skype the other day.
Must go, there are a couple of blokes in white at the door, funny - that doesn't look like a bakers van............................................... .?

Mike

PS Looks like another immaculate model taking shape Bob, glad to see the trusty Parker scale comparison unit is still in use, it certainly has been photographed many times now over the years.

Shipbuilder
25th April 2010, 10:20
Mike,
Its a different pen. Ten days ago, I was in London and realised I had forgotten my pen, so purchased this one. When I got back, I promoted it to ship model photography and the old one has been demoted to writing with!
Bob

Malky Glaister
25th April 2010, 11:49
Hi everyone,
I have read with interest the correspondence on these winches.
They had a large increase in popularity from the mid sixties being fitted to the vast numbers of oil related vessels being built worldwide. There use helped to stop such ships blowing up.
As a Chief and second engineer on a good number of these vessels I can say that the machines were very good with only a few minor problems. They were reliable and fool proof. However designers got invloved. Self tensioning winches to assist (get rid of ) the deck crew in port. This generally required a pressurised exhaust system and a huge water consumption causing engineering grief on a worldscale everywhere one of these systems exsisted!
Basically with most vessels the piping systems were the bug bear resulting in self tension being ignored and steam on deck often given under duress! Chiefs with water on the brain were comonplace.
Ido not know whether or not they are still built. I rather doubt it. All part of the fascinating maritime past which is rapidlyu vanishing.
Hope these remarks will if not assissssting the model builder add to the flavour of the thread. (the sssss'sss are another steam leak on my computor)!

regards to all, Malky Glaister

Malky Glaister
25th April 2010, 13:53
Hi Again,
Regarding these winches. I had included some further details which had returned to PC condenser somehow!
The works of these machines were as mentioned enclosed in an "oil tight" casing. This casing contained a level of oil in which an oil pump of the plunger type had it,s suction. This pump discharged to the oil system as the winch turned. The bearings were usually ball or roller types resulting in excellent reliability and longevity. Bigest enemy was water in the oil which had to be drained off. Otherwise no problems if warmed through and drained properly. The steam end sufferered with rapid corossion especially on the focsle and eventually large castings would have to be airfrieghted across the world at vast cost often after a prolonged search for the bits,

Regards malky Glaister

MikeK
26th April 2010, 08:36
Mike,
Its a different pen. Ten days ago, I was in London and realised I had forgotten my pen, so purchased this one. When I got back, I promoted it to ship model photography and the old one has been demoted to writing with!
Bob

Hope it has a long and happy retirement Bob. Also may the new pen be equally as busy ! It certainly has a big target to 'measure' up to (Boom, boom !)

Mike

Shipbuilder
26th April 2010, 08:47
There have been several over the years, I usually either lose them or get glue over them. The new one was in use again this morning with the latest picture.
I am hoping the book arrives today with pictures of the winches.
Bob

MikeK
26th April 2010, 13:40
Bob, when you undertake a new model, how do you go about getting the hull shape ? I can't remeber ever coming across any cross section drawings only general arrangement type with either a side view or plan view. Or do you use these to estimate the hull shape, given that it is mostly slab sided anyway.
From time to time I have toyed with the idea of building a model of my first ship (or last !) and shelved it because of that stumbling block.
Regards

Mike

Shipbuilder
26th April 2010, 14:45
Hi Mike,
Most of the plans that I use show slices of the hull from tank tops, 'tween decks, maindeck shelter deck etc, so a fairly accurate idea of what is required may be gained. In the case of the GLENMOOR, there are actually five hull cross-sections that help a lot. A cruiser stern is pretty standard and various photographs will usually show the amount of lare on the bow. Couple with that years of looking at ship hulls, it is not all that difficult.
Bob

Shipbuilder
26th April 2010, 15:15
Further to the above, pictures like this are also a great help. I found this after I started the GLENMOOR, but I wasn't actually looking for it, just browsing The Motor Ship. It showed me that the bow did not have as pronouced a flare as some ships of that era, but was still quite nicely formed.
Bob

MikeK
26th April 2010, 16:10
Hi Mike,
Couple with that years of looking at ship hulls, it is not all that difficult.
Bob

Thanks for the prompt reply Bob, I think your last above mentioned is the key ! That said I might start a hunt for drawings.....................one of these days (==D)

Cheers,

Mike

Shipbuilder
27th April 2010, 13:23
Thanks to Dave "Halline" and various photographs, notes and drawings contributed by readers of this thread, I now have full details of these winches and was able to make a start this morning.

As well as turning ten drum & casing assemblies (each from a single piece of brass rod), I made a quantity of cowl ventlators. The cowls were turned and hollowed out on the lathe and then soldered to the shafts.

Here is the results of this morning's session. At the end of it the lathe motor (Unimat SL) was too hot to touch, so I thought I had better not push my luck too far by doing any more lathe work today (although I do have a spare motor). I recently wore out the chuck after 18 years of heavy use. Had an awful time finding replacement, but finally obtained one from the USA and got another given to me from someone in Scotland.

The turnings are by no means perfect, but bear in mind they are extremely small and do not have to "work!"

Bob

Billieboy
27th April 2010, 18:52
Very nice work Bob. May I suggest that you run the hoover over the lathe motor when it's cold? this could help with the temperature.

Shipbuilder
27th April 2010, 19:16
Thanks Billieboy,
It always seems OK. I got it 2nd hand in 1973 and it never seems to take any harm. I usually put it outside to cool down!

Anyway, here are ten dandy little steam winches. I had to use a bit of artist's licence on the seats, but they are very small and I hope I have captured the spirit of Clarke-Chapman.
Bob

John Briggs
27th April 2010, 22:55
Well done Bob. At that size on a model they will be instantly recognisable as enclosed steam winches.

Shipbuilder
28th April 2010, 07:09
Thanks,
I will be fitting them today. Also about to make the windlass and warping winch, but have all the details for those.
Bob

Shipbuilder
7th May 2010, 14:50
Thanks to your help with photographs, plans, drawing etc of the winches, I was able to sort it all out. By the time the book, The Theory & Practice of Seamanship, arrived with its excellent photographs of the enclosed winches, I had made them and they agreed with all then information supplied. Late this morning, I launched the ship into the sea (painted by my wife) and completed the finishing touches. Here she is, Runciman's M.V. GLENMOOR, 1953 - 1982, modelled at 32'=1".
Thanks agin.
Bob