Apprentices

barrinoz
12th August 2010, 01:54
If I could just duck my head onto the bridge for a moment to ask a question, please. For the life of me I can't remember what, if any, uniform, Deck Apprentices wore and whether they displayed any braid whatsoever. I sailed with NZSCo, FSNCo, Blue Star and P&O.
I seem to remember plain Serge 'suits'. Can anyone help?
barrinoz.

John Briggs
12th August 2010, 02:24
It varied from company to company and from nothing to quite smart turn outs.
I can recall plain black epaulets with three small gold buttons on the end or a very thin gold stripe running the length of the epaulet. Some just had a simple unadorned black epaulet.

lakercapt
12th August 2010, 03:49
As John stated we did have proper uniforms the same as other mates and engineers.
The epaulets where black with a thin gold stripe running lengthwise.
On the uniform there was a goldstripe with a brass button on each lapel.

Worn on high days and holidays as normal uniform was dungarees or shorts in warm weather.

Graham Wallace
12th August 2010, 05:44
I was a BP Marine Engineering Apprentice, hopefully is attached a photo of my insignia.

The Apprentices both Engineering and Navigating wore epaulettes as shown on tropical uniform and navy blue 'battle dress' style jackets.

The very small gorgets were mounted on the reefer jacket lapels with button (not shown in photo) uppermost

I kept all this stuff for 50 years , they finally had some use. However the two buttons shown at the bottom were issued by BP but have different Lions, one rampant ( standing vertically), the other in the horizontal. I have no idea why, any ex BP comments ?

Graham

Reef Knot
12th August 2010, 08:15
I kept all this stuff for 50 years , they finally had some use. However the two buttons shown at the bottom were issued by BP but have different Lions, one rampant ( standing vertically), the other in the horizontal. I have no idea why, any ex BP comments ?

GrahamJust turn the horizontal one 90 degrees and.... OK! OK! I'm going - don't push! (Jester)

R798780
12th August 2010, 08:24
Brocklebanks specified Russian Gold Braid for apprentices insignia. Uniform was normal officers uniform; Blue serge or doeskin, with whites in the tropics. Epaulettes had the single lengthways stripe as with the BP example, Blue uniform had a doubled braid on the lapel as above, but with a button at the end. Amongst the uniform kit was a bridge coat, white with long sleeves (never used) and long white uniform trousers which I did wear when sunburnt. Also required was battledress blouse and trousers.

John_F
12th August 2010, 11:29
I kept all this stuff for 50 years , they finally had some use. However the two buttons shown at the bottom were issued by BP but have different Lions, one rampant ( standing vertically), the other in the horizontal. I have no idea why, any ex BP comments ?

Graham
Graham,
The buttons with the lion "couchant" were in use up till 1955 when they were changed to "rampant". As this must have been round about the time that you joined BP I imagine that you must have been issued with some old stock mixed up with the new stock.
Hope you're keeping well.
Kind regards,
John.

barrinoz
12th August 2010, 12:56
I'm much obliged gents. Lots of info there. Many thanx.
barrinoz.

slick
13th August 2010, 08:55
All,
One of the words we are looking for is Gorget, Epaulettes made by SW Silver had two lines of braid, up and and around the button, very smart.

Yours aye,

slick

BarnacleGrim
13th August 2010, 15:25
Just picked up my uniform from Stena Line. Just the standard bridge and deck uniforms. Black trousers, white shirts, NATO sweater, but no braid.

Billieboy
13th August 2010, 16:15
Just picked up my uniform from Stena Line. Just the standard bridge and deck uniforms. Black trousers, white shirts, NATO sweater, but no braid.

Now you just have to work hard, learn a lot and then sit your exams! the braid will come along, when you're good enough to wear it!

BarnacleGrim
14th August 2010, 13:18
That lengthwise stripe would be cool, but I'd rather wait for, and earn the real thing. :cool:

Reef Knot
14th August 2010, 13:33
Hey Barnacle

My son was only 29 when he had the whole collection. It is true that he worked very hard to get them but, one thing is certain, he played very hard too!

Best wishes to you for your studies. I hope all goes well for you. It will be cool if you keep us informed of your progress.

Pat Thompson
14th August 2010, 13:35
Greetings,

I sometimes feel so old that I can remember when it was "Mouton Apprentice" rather than "Mouton Cadet".

Hugh Ferguson
14th August 2010, 13:51
See this link:-
www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/243210/title/casablanca-2c-nov-1944/cat/500

This was Blue Funnel and Glen Line.

Donald McGhee
15th August 2010, 01:33
Seems that nowadays uniform is not flavour of the month any more! Or am I just being an old nag?

We seldom wore uniform as such in Bank Line and if we did it was a real mixture of different coloured shirts and shorts. I remember that a medium grey was the rage on the Teviotbank, when the mate got some tropical gear made in Calcutta. We all jumped on the bandwagon, looked real smart for a while then novelty wore off.

My favourite was battledress jacket in Winter, (Donaldson Line, Western Ocean Atlantic) with a submarine wooly under it, cosy as!

(Thumb)

Hugh Ferguson
15th August 2010, 09:05
Uniform is regarded by many as a class thing and I suppose it is. But just think about boarding an air-liner and seeing somebody slouching up to the flight-deck, casually dressed in dungarees and a colourful shirt and baseball cap.
I would not feel too happy about that.
I remember going aboard Chinese ships during the Mao era and especially at night. All hands identically dressed in their Mao suits. The captain would come forward for a hand-shake, but I would not be able to distinguish his features in the dark and would, come day-light, not be able to recognise him.
Does it matter? Well, I thought it did at the time. In fact, it was a nuisance as I then had to ask who the captain was if I needed to discuss something with him.

Hugh Ferguson
16th August 2010, 17:45
Uniform is regarded by many as a class thing and I suppose it is. But just think about boarding an air-liner and seeing somebody slouching up to the flight-deck, casually dressed in dungarees and a colourful shirt and baseball cap.
I would not feel too happy about that.
I remember going aboard Chinese ships during the Mao era and especially at night. All hands identically dressed in their Mao suits. The captain would come forward for a hand-shake, but I would not be able to distinguish his features in the dark and would, come day-light, not be able to recognise him.
Does it matter? Well, I thought it did at the time. In fact, it was a nuisance as I then had to ask who the captain was if I needed to discuss something with him.

What? No rejoinder to this reasonable supposition?

Stephen J. Card
16th August 2010, 23:40
Seems that nowadays uniform is not flavour of the month any more! Or am I just being an old nag?



My favourite was battledress jacket in Winter, (Donaldson Line, Western Ocean Atlantic) with a submarine wooly under it, cosy as!

(Thumb)


Arriving Southampton one winter evening as cadet on board EUROLINER I went to the bridge wearing white turtleneck jumper and battledress jacket. The mate came up and gruffly asked, "Did you leave your U-Boat around the corner?" A few minutes later he called me.... "Mister, when you arrive in a UK port you wear **** and tie. Go and change. The U-boat gear is 'nicht'!"

Incidentally... talking about Donaldson Line... the first pair of second mate's epaulettes I owned were given to me by a fellow whose uncle had them as 3rd mate's cuff braid with Donaldson's. He resitched them into a pair of 2nd mate's epaulettes and later went on to become a Marine Superintendent with Donaldsons. By the time I got them they were about forty + years old and that was 35 years ago!!!! They were falling apart and the gold had turned to a purple/green colour. Treasures!
Stephen

Tom Inglis
19th August 2010, 17:26
[QUOTE=Hugh Ferguson;447820]See this link:-
www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/243210/title/casablanca-2c-nov-1944/cat/500

This was Blue Funnel and Glen Line.[/QU[ATTACH]19803


The attached is a group of Blue Funnel Middies ashore in Sydney in 1942. Perhaps Hugh knows them.

Tom Inglis

The 2nd. Mate
19th August 2010, 19:18
Hi all

The most unusual rig I have seen is on a photo of my uncle as an Apprentice with Bank Line [s/s Trentbank] in the early 30's

The rig did have the "Midshipman's Patch" on the lapel of his square rig, but on the left lapel only, I wonder if it meant he was a Junior Apprentice?

Cheers

Ian

Hugh Ferguson
19th August 2010, 21:12
[QUOTE=Hugh Ferguson;447820]See this link:-
www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/243210/title/casablanca-2c-nov-1944/cat/500

This was Blue Funnel and Glen Line.[/QU[ATTACH]19803


The attached is a group of Blue Funnel Middies ashore in Sydney in 1942. Perhaps Hugh knows them.

Tom Inglis

I'm sure I would recognise a name or two (I would love to know who they were), but I don't recognise a face-there were many of us in that once huge company.
Lucky guys, whoever they were, to find themselves in Aussie in 1942. The ship they were in was the Orestes which was attacked off of Sydney by a Japanese submarine on the 9th June 1942. 15 to 20 shells were fired at her with just one hit causing insignificant damage. They were probably in her at that time.

david freeman
20th August 2010, 09:00
Apprentices of the deck variety. As an oily rag apprentice I remember my deck colleages dipping the ensign to passing or being passed fellow company ships; I also if correct all warships of what ever flag state the ensign was dipped as a matter of respect. Does this still happen?

Tom Inglis
20th August 2010, 15:33
[QUOTE=Tom Inglis;449167]

I'm sure I would recognise a name or two (I would love to know who they were), but I don't recognise a face-there were many of us in that once huge company.
Lucky guys, whoever they were, to find themselves in Aussie in 1942. The ship they were in was the Orestes which was attacked off of Sydney by a Japanese submarine on the 9th June 1942. 15 to 20 shells were fired at her with just one hit causing insignificant damage. They were probably in her at that time.

Hugh,
The photo was sent to me recently by Tom Effney and he also mentioned the incident with the Jap Sub. One shell went into No 2 tween Deck. The names on the photo are [L toR] KT Jones, Stone, Effney, Makintosh. It was onleaving Sydney after this photo that the jap Sub persued them.
regards
Tom

Vital Sparks
23rd August 2010, 15:46
With BP, the navigation cadets epaulettes were a thin sinle line of braid running the length of the board and terminating at the brass button. The engineer cadets braid was similar except that braid had a purple background. Radio cadets braid had a single line of braid formed intio a sine wave. This created a "handedness" problem in that they could be worn with the first peak of the sine wave pointing forrard or aft and I never did find out which was correct.

Officers wearing their epaulettes on the wrong shoulders we classified as "flying backwards" and owed a beer to everbody who saw them so dressed. Not too bad for those who had adopted velcro attachment but expensive if shirt removal and re-lacing/buttoning were required.

Hugh Ferguson
23rd August 2010, 16:26
[QUOTE=Hugh Ferguson;449214]

Hugh,
The photo was sent to me recently by Tom Effney and he also mentioned the incident with the Jap Sub. One shell went into No 2 tween Deck. The names on the photo are [L toR] KT Jones, Stone, Effney, Makintosh. It was onleaving Sydney after this photo that the jap Sub persued them.
regards
Tom

I know of Tom Effney although I don't think our paths ever crossed.
I spoke with him a little while ago after the death of his friend, Peter Jackson (rtd. commander of the Q.E.2.

Union Jack
24th August 2010, 00:37
Officers wearing their epaulettes on the wrong shoulders we classified as "flying backwards" and owed a beer to everbody who saw them so dressed.

Known in the Royal Navy as "going astern" and it was usually spotted once only before the improperly dressed officer carried out a very speedy rig shift!

Jack

Donald McGhee
24th August 2010, 10:30
Officers wearing their epaulettes on the wrong shoulders we classified as "flying backwards" and owed a beer to everbody who saw them so dressed.

Known in the Royal Navy as "going astern" and it was usually spotted once only before the improperly dressed officer carried out a very speedy rig shift!

Jack

The "going astern" surely only related to braid that has the executive curl? MN standard braid has (I don't think) any way of telling which shoulder it should be worn on! I stand to be corrected.

Vital Sparks
24th August 2010, 10:45
BP officers wore Royal Navy braid, with the executive curl.

Jacktar1
24th August 2010, 15:29
I served my time as Apprentice with a well known Cardiff tramp company, I was indentured, pay was as follows: First Year 82 pounds, Second Year 110 pounds, Third Year 150 pounds and fourth Year 210 pounds. Plus we were paid overtime, think it was 6p per hour !
I believe that my parents had to put down a deposit of 10 pounds, which was returned to them on my successful completion of apprenticeship !

You had Apprentice's, Cadets and of course BF Midshipmen, I know that the RN had Midshipment but regarding BF, was it just BS ??? No insult intended !
Cheers.....Glan

Hugh Ferguson
24th August 2010, 18:15
No, it was not BS, it was an honour conferred as a result of services in W.W.1.

Jacktar1
24th August 2010, 18:44
Thanks for the info

donald duck
26th August 2010, 21:52
Apprentices - read Jacktari with interest - I served my time with an unknown tramp co (London) from July 1942- my pay year one 10 - two 12 -three 18
and four 20 - overtime 6d an hour at sea -think it was more in port maybe 9d -
and think it was 6 per month war-risk money! Happy days !!!

John Dryden
26th August 2010, 22:06
Bank Line 1969 first year wage was 19 2/8 per month,no overtime.The next year due to the MNAOA union getting us a 127% increase I was on 52 a month which was very nice.

Vital Sparks
27th August 2010, 17:21
When joining BP as a cadet I remember that they still required me and my parents to sign apprentice indentures. The language was archaic and I'm sure it required me "not to frequent alehouses or houses of ill repute". Does anybody have a scan of this kind of documentation.

capt.jim
27th August 2010, 20:21
When joining BP as a cadet I remember that they still required me and my parents to sign apprentice indentures. The language was archaic and I'm sure it required me "not to frequent alehouses or houses of ill repute". Does anybody have a scan of this kind of documentation.

still have my indentures somewhere-will dig them out - blue funnel 1949 still on linen? with red wax seal (must be worth a few bob) THINK IT was taverns, alehouses or houses of ill repute unless on company`s business

Donald McGhee
27th August 2010, 23:06
still have my indentures somewhere-will dig them out - blue funnel 1949 still on linen? with red wax seal (must be worth a few bob) THINK IT was taverns, alehouses or houses of ill repute unless on company`s business

I quote from my indentures. 1964. Donaldson Line of Glasgow

"Will not frequent Taverns or Alehouses, unless upon his or their business; nor play at unlawful games". Lots of other stuff about embezzlement, damaging goods etc, etc.

This indenture is identical to my Fathers indentures (Nisbets of Glasgow) from 1932. Nowhere have I ever seen any mention of houses of ill repute! This indenture is an Ordinary Apprentices Indenture (Scotland). Not to say the English or other shipping companies didn't have their own.

(Thumb)

China hand
28th August 2010, 19:21
You are quite right, sir. I think the H of I.R. bit is a myth which has romanced itself over the years. The Standard Indenture wording remained unchanged, with initialed additions, for many, many years.