Cargo plan: Glenroy, voy.17

Hugh Ferguson
17th June 2011, 10:16
A typical Glen Line cargo, from a voyage to Japan and mainland China in 1951.

Hugh Ferguson
17th June 2011, 11:02
4 female elephants for restocking Hamburg Zoo after the war.

Hugh Ferguson
17th June 2011, 21:03
Another section of the same plan. This one shows the more valuable items such as silk, skins, rugs etc., classified as Ad Valorum. They were stowed under lock and key.

Don Matheson
17th June 2011, 21:29
Hugh as an engineer I always looked upon the mates cargo plan as a work of art.
Loved your space left for the elephants, did you have to leave part of the hatch open for them? Mydad once carried a giraffe which entailed them leaving part of the hatch open and also carry it in the very best of weather.

Don

Hugh Ferguson
17th June 2011, 22:32
Yes, Don, could be, but I never thought of it like that. Actually it was the Purser's-chief R/O- skills that produced them and 'twas he, on completion of loading in Colombo, who placed the 'work of art' in a frame with a blank piece of photographic sensitive parchment beneath it, and left it in the blazing sun on the boat-deck to eventually produce about ten copies. He would then, with a crayon, colour them all in, red for London, blue for Hamburg etc..
It all seems so primitive this day and computerised age: would you believe we didn't even have pocket calculators-I remember one chief mate who used a slide rule for the very important trim and stability calculations that were so essential. If we had finished six inches by the head I doubt he would have been in that ship next trip.
And to think that was just a mere sixty years ago!

(Incidentally, that class of Glen boats were reckoned to be the most powerfully engined cargo ships of their time, with their twin double-acting B&W engines producing 12,000 BHP for an 18 knot sea speed. The first one I was in, the Glenartney, clocked up 17.65 knots, average full sea speed, for the 100 day voyage to Japan and back).

jimthehat
17th June 2011, 23:15
Yes, Don, could be, but I never thought of it like that. Actually it was the Purser's-chief R/O- skills that produced them and 'twas he, on completion of loading in Colombo, who placed the 'work of art' in a frame with a blank piece of photographic sensitive parchment beneath it, and left it in the blazing sun on the boat-deck to eventually produce about ten copies. He would then, with a crayon, colour them all in, red for London, blue for Hamburg etc..
It all seems so primitive this day and computerised age: would you believe we didn't even have pocket calculators-I remember one chief mate who used a slide rule for the very important trim and stability calculations that were so essential. If we had finished six inches by the head I doubt he would have been in that ship next trip.
And to think that was just a mere sixty years ago!

(Incidentally, that class of Glen boats were reckoned to be the most powerfully engined cargo ships of their time, with their twin double-acting B&W engines producing 12,000 BHP for an 18 knot sea speed. The first one I was in, the Glenartney, clocked up 17.65 knots, average full sea speed, for the 100 day voyage to Japan and back).
In bank line it was the 2/0 who did the plans and having to get 7 copies of a work of art out before sailing was hard work. I think that our more complicated plans were on the capetown far east run.
I did 4 years on that run and never saved a plan,so it is nice to see one.

jim

Don Matheson
17th June 2011, 23:18
Hugh if I remember correctly wasnt the Glenorchy built in Fairfields on the Clyde. I thought that class to be beautiful ships.

Don

Hugh Ferguson
18th June 2011, 10:22
Don, There were two of the original Glens (class name Glenearn) lost in the war, Glenorchy and Breconshire both built by Taikoo Dockyard in Hong Kong.
Those two ships were replaced and given those same names by two very similar ships-Priam and Telemachus-both built by Caledon.
Glenearn was built by Caledon at a cost of 440,500, she was the first to be followed by the Glenroy, built by Scott's Yard, Glengyle and Glenartney both built by Caledon, and lastly the Glengarry built by Burmeister Wain in Copenhagen.
The odd one out was the Radnorshire, built by Caledon and launched as the Achilles for Blue Funnel, an A.Class ship, which was added to this London/China/Japan service to enable it to maintain the one ship sailing per fortnight.
Caledon and Scott's were the mainstay builders for Blue Funnel and Glen: as far as I know they didn't patronise Fairfield's.

Tom Inglis
18th June 2011, 10:25
Hugh if I remember correctly wasnt the Glenorchy built in Fairfields on the Clyde. I thought that class to be beautiful ships.

Don

Hi Don,
Glenorchy was built at Caledon Shipbuilding in Dundee for Blue Funnel. She was launched as Priam in 1941 and immediately requisitioned by the Admiralty. She was acquired by Glen line in Oct 1948. In 1970 she transferred back to Blue Funnel as Phemius and went to scrap at Kaohsiung in 1971. A good productive and eventful life. I sailed on her in 1963 and again in 1970 when she transferred back to Blue Funnel.
I also did 3 voyages [4th Mate] on Glenroy in 1962 so Hugh's cargo plans brought back memories. It was always fascinating that we simply had to have good sunny weather between Colombo/Trincomalee and Aden so that the plan could be photographed as Hugh described and made ready to post from Aden.
I remember one master saying to me when I was a Middy that " I have seen a lot of changes lad, but you are going to see a hell of a lot more" How right he was!!

Tom Inglis

Tom Inglis
18th June 2011, 10:32
Don, There were two of the original Glens (class name Glenearn) lost in the war, Glenorchy and Breconshire both built by Taikoo Dockyard in Hong Kong.
Those two ships were replaced and given those same names by two very similar ships-Priam and Telemachus-both built by Caledon.
Glenearn was built by Caledon at a cost of 440,500, she was the first to be followed by the Glenroy, built by Scott's Yard, Glengyle and Glenartney both built by Caledon, and lastly the Glengarry built by Burmeister Wain in Copenhagen.
The odd one out was the Radnorshire, built by Caledon and launched as the Achilles for Blue Funnel, an A.Class ship, which was added to this London/China/Japan service to enable it to maintain the one ship sailing per fortnight.
Caledon and Scott's were the mainstay builders for Blue Funnel and Glen: as far as I know they didn't patronise Fairfield's.



Hi Hugh,
Our information does not correspond and I wonder who is correct.? The source of my info is The Book "Glen and Shire Lines" from the "Ships in Focus" series. They are usually accurate.
Any further thoughts?

Tom

Hugh Ferguson
18th June 2011, 11:06
Tom, That's where I confirmed my recollection of the history of that class! I'll check and come back to you.

Hugh Ferguson
18th June 2011, 12:30
Well, Tom, having checked I don't see any contradictions. As you state, the surviving Glenorchy was indeed Caledon built-I can't see why, or how our respective information fails to correspond.

Hugh Ferguson
18th June 2011, 12:59
The thumbnail is of a piece I found stuck on the back of a fine painting I have of the Glenroy. Nice place for a boy to grow up in, a home overlooking Scott's Yard, Greenock.

Don Matheson
18th June 2011, 17:05
Thanks guys, I have seen Glenorchy in Glasgow as a boy, remember her as my Dad was captain of the Orchy of William Sloans. Such coincidence cant go unnoticed in a young boy.
Looking up a very very old and dusty notebook, I think the Glenline ships built by Fairfields was the Glenfalloch and Glenogle around 63-63.
Sorry about the confusion with Fairfields and Glenorchy.

Don

By the way Hugh, you never told me about the hatches when carrying elephants.

Tom Inglis
18th June 2011, 17:27
Well, Tom, having checked I don't see any contradictions. As you state, the surviving Glenorchy was indeed Caledon built-I can't see why, or how our respective information fails to correspond.



Very sorry Hugh. Having sent my message I then saw yours, [sent about the same time,] read the first line refering to Taikoo Yard and jumped to the wrong conclusion without reading the rest.
Yes, we are now on the same wave length.

regards

Tom

Hugh Ferguson
18th June 2011, 17:38
Hugh as an engineer I always looked upon the mates cargo plan as a work of art.
Loved your space left for the elephants, did you have to leave part of the hatch open for them? Mydad once carried a giraffe which entailed them leaving part of the hatch open and also carry it in the very best of weather.

Don

Initially, the elephants were tethered on the port side of the after well-deck with their own specially erected awning. But as we were going to be arriving home in the dead of winter (signed off in London 5th Dec.1950), come time we entered the Meddy, other arrangements became necessary.
This involved utilizing the space in the centre-castle deck which had already been set aside for them. So, come the cooler weather, the huge double steel doors which gave entry to this deck were opened and the four 'ellies' were persuaded to amble in!
All that remain of my recollections of that remaining eight days to London are that they soon got their sea-legs, and being tethered athwartships it was easier for them to counter the ship rolling than had they been tethered fore and aft as it were.
Despite being indoors we got concerned when we began to notice them shivering-elephants shiver in slow motion. It was then that some bright spark thought they should be given buckets of warm water laced with rum: they seemed to like that but, as anyone would know these days, alchohol is absolutely the wrong medicine for treating the cold.
Whatever, they still seemed O.K. by the time we docked and it was left to the coasting crowd to see them safely delivered to Hamburg.
(I have a photograph of them being off-loaded there).
Looking back, it would not seem very wise to ship tropical animals to a freezing Hamburg mid December 1950. I've often wondered how they fared. I never much cared for the idea of wild animals being kept in steel cages for people to gawk at-it seems unutterably cruel

Tom Inglis
18th June 2011, 17:42
Thanks guys, I have seen Glenorchy in Glasgow as a boy, remember her as my Dad was captain of the Orchy of William Sloans. Such coincidence cant go unnoticed in a young boy.
Looking up a very very old and dusty notebook, I think the Glenline ships built by Fairfields was the Glenfalloch and Glenogle around 63-63.
Sorry about the confusion with Fairfields and Glenorchy.

Don

By the way Hugh, you never told me about the hatches when carrying elephants.

Hi again Don,
you are right about Glenfalloch and Glenogle. And come to mention these two, I sailed three trips as third mate on Glenfalloch [1966- 67] and one on Glenogle [1965] These were my favourite ships of all.

Don Matheson
18th June 2011, 17:54
Hugh thanks for the story on the elephants, would have been a lot of fun had they got loose! Could you not have used steam heating rigged up to warm them.

Tom Glad I managed to get something correct. Glad you enjoyed your time on them, and I do hope the Clyde built good ships for you.

Don

China hand
18th June 2011, 18:32
In Blue Star, on the "A"boats from leaving the last South America port to the Canaries was a frenzy of cargo plan photographing. Buckets of slop, lines on the bridge, sun frames whistling in and out. Everyone and his dog wanted a plan in London, including the night watchman! Must admit, some of them were good.

Hugh Ferguson
18th June 2011, 20:38
An awful lot of misunderstanding seems to have crept into this thread which leads me to wonder, Don, what have hatches to do with elephants!?
Could it be the layout of Blueys and Glens having a centre-castle deck which runs right under all of the midships accommodation and down the port and starboard sides of the engine-room space. This deck is closed at the forward end abaft No.3 hatch, but with an opening at the after end giving access to the after well-deck. That opening is secured by large steel doors which, if required, can be left open weather permitting, or closed if weather not permitting.
On outward passages this space was invariably used for the carriage of uncased cars which could be pushed in off the deck abreast No.5 hatch all the way along to the closed bulkhead just abaft No.3 hatch.

The centre-castle deck was easy to fill with cars but not so easy for other types of cargo-it was absolutely perfect for elephants, but I only ever saw it used for that on the one occasion.

Hugh Ferguson
19th June 2011, 20:46
Click HERE (www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/273087/title/s-smenelaus/cat/500) for the very beginnings of the making of a cargo plan. Every one of those junks is laden with something transported down the Pearl River from the interior of China to Hong Kong, to be shipped to any one of some ten destinations.
And that was just one of the several loading ports!

MikeK
20th June 2011, 07:32
Your picture brought back memories of cargo watches at the buoys in Jardines. Everyone of those junks would have a wad of boat notes for different parcels of cargo and each would have to be signed for ! If you stood still for more than a few minutes you would be mobbed by hoardes of people (and kids) waving sheaves of pink sheets to be signed, so that they could be on their way in their junks. We tried to get permission to have 'chops' made ashore with our signatures cut in, but the powers said no. My signature slowly deteriorated to a vague squiggle and flourish during my time in Jardines and has never recovered !

Mike

Don Matheson
20th June 2011, 13:30
Hugh Your picture of the Menelaus being swamped by such a confusion of junks is amazing. It makes me wonder, despite your posts following the photo, how did anyone know what went where and did it ever go wrong?
The photo must be a wondeful memory for lots of Blue Funnel/Glen Line members who would face chaos such as this on a regular basis.
Super photo, and thanks for explaining it all to me. Wee bit late now but appreciated never the less.

Don

Hugh Ferguson
20th June 2011, 19:13
I must admit that I never myself saw so many junks alongside a ship. The Menelaus was a nine hold ship and so was a couple of thousand tons bigger than any of the Glenearn class with which I was familiar.
It is only fair to say that it was the Chinese foreman stevedores who were those with the most experience of dealing with the threatening chaos. They were familiar figures to us-we called them Jack-and their know how of where everything would get stowed was second to none.
I have a vivid picture, still in my mind after sixty years, of a Jack leaping up a rail, clinging to a stay, and waving his hat at an approaching junk to indicate where he should come alongside-now how the hell did he know what that junk had aboard which was to be loaded into No.2.?!?!
The two who really needed to know what they were about were the mate and that Chinese foreman stevedore. We, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th mates, had to note where it all got stowed and to report that to the purser for addition to the plan.
Just remains to be said that I loved cargo work in Hong Kong simply because it was done with such skill and expertise.

Hugh Ferguson
21st June 2011, 07:11
Click HERE (www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/57017/title/glengarry-at-holt-27s-wh/cat/500) and you'll have an excellent image of a Glen boat alongside Holt's Wharf, Kowloon, showing the gear available for the loading and discharge of cargo: in this instance, discharging the last of the outward cargo.

Hugh Ferguson
21st June 2011, 09:30
One doesn't have to be looking for long at the photo of the Glen boat alongside Holt's Wharf to realise that there's not much going on! Twenty two derricks 'topped' and not a sling of cargo in the air to be seen.
This tells me the photo must have been taken on 10th Oct., Christmas Day or, much more likely, at chow time, noon to 1pm..
That immediately puts me in mind of Noel Coward's rendition of his song, Mad Dogs and Englishmen, for in that song the final verse goes:-
Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
The smallest Malay rabbit deplores this foolish habit.
In Hong Kong, they strike a gong, and fire off a noonday gun.
To reprimand each inmate, who's in late.
In Bengal to move at all, is seldom if ever done,
But mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
Out in the midday, out in the midday, out in the midday sun!

The Noonday Gun was located opposite the Excelsior Hotel and is still-so I believe- fired everyday at noon. In 1968 Coward visited Hong Kong and himself fired the gun.

James_C
21st June 2011, 11:38
Hugh,
Many thanks for taking the trouble to scan and post these cargo plans and accompanying photos - all the more important as it's really part of history now, and I doubt many of us had the foresight to preserve such things!
If you have any more items hidden away in your archive then please post them as they're sure to rekindle the memories of many members.

MikeK
21st June 2011, 12:24
[QUOTE=
Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
The smallest Malay rabbit deplores this foolish habit.
In Hong Kong, they strike a gong, and fire off a noonday gun.
To reprimand each inmate, who's in late.
In Bengal to move at all, is seldom if ever done,
But mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
Out in the midday, out in the midday, out in the midday sun!

The Noonday Gun was located opposite the Excelsior Hotel and is still-so I believe- fired everyday at noon. In 1968 Coward visited Hong Kong and himself fired ther gun.[/QUOTE]

The gun was mounted at Jardines Godown and legend has it that it was to be fired as a punishment back in the days when Jardines consisted of heavily armed opium runners, I can't remember exactly why, something to do with having more guns than the Governor ! It was also fired to bring in the New Year either by the owners/ directors at Jardines , or by invitation to some notables eg the retiring Governor of H.K one year I was there. Any Jardines ships in port at the time were invited and more important, the booze was all free !
Great memories and good company to sail with

Mike

Hugh Ferguson
21st June 2011, 13:13
Hugh,
Many thanks for taking the trouble to scan and post these cargo plans and accompanying photos - all the more important as it's really part of history now, and I doubt many of us had the foresight to preserve such things!
If you have any more items hidden away in your archive then please post them as they're sure to rekindle the memories of many members.

I probably have, Jim, the problem is that I haven't a clue how to lay a hand on it, it just has to stay where it is until I happen to stumble across it! Both my wife and I seem to possess a gene that compels us never to throw anything away and that's the result: a far greater chaos than ever existed amongst all those junks alongside a Bluey all those years ago.

And thanks, Mike, for the reminder that Jardines had something to do with the noonday gun. When I couldn't recall the words of the song I Googled, "Mad dogs of Englishmen" and there it was together with the mention of Jardines.
(Incidentally, I can never remember if it was China Navigation Co. they managed and, by the way, did you ever bump into Leslie Money out there?)

teb
21st June 2011, 16:08
Hugh-The story (in many variations)is that it was custom for a gun salute to be given to departing Jardine Taipan -this so infurated a governor at the time that the firm was comanded to fire the gun at noon- hence the custom. the gun to--day sits on the spot were Jardine's built their first office in Hong Kong. It is as Mike mentions also fired to welcome in the new year.Their ship owning operations came under Indo China Steam Navigation Co Ltd.one of the original directors being a senior partner of MacGregor Gow & Holland the founders of Glen Line through this old connection Jardines were agents for Glen Line. To commemorate the 150 years of Jardine Matheson the company published an illustrated book "The Thistle and The Jade" edited by Maggie Keswick- I'm sure you would enjoy reading it if you could come across a copy, in it is a photo of Noel Coward fiiring the Gun. Regards Teb,

MikeK
21st June 2011, 16:25
Thanks Teb for the gun explanation, I knew they upset someone ! Also thanks for putting Hugh right re China Nav. They were regarded as the competition but secretly I always thought they had far more exotic runs than Jardines (shades of the Clacutta run - oh joy ! )
No I don't recall bumping into anyone by that name Hugh, but there again the way the memory is going I could have been bosom pals with him and forgotten by now !
My apologies for trespassing into the Glen Line area, but I think all of us who spent time in the Far East have many memories in common .....a lot that couldn't be mentioned here maybe !

Mike

Hugh Ferguson
21st June 2011, 17:30
As Jim makes mention of in post #27, these things rekindle memories. After posting the first thumbnail I too had some memories rekindled! Memories of being down No.3 hold, in the port of Tsing Tao, loading frozen hen eggs.
They came in cartons, frozen solid and weighing about 60/70 lbs each. The lower hold had been filled and just had the beams and hatch slabs shipped for continueing the loading into the Orlop Deck (lower 'tween deck) wing compartments. The first sling, grossly over-loaded, clipped the coaming thus spilling, what must have amounted to a couple of tons of frozen egg in cartons, down the hatch as it were.
You can just imagine that lot, complying with the law of gravity over more than twenty five feet, having a lot of energy to dispose of before it came to a standstill. All I was able to do to get out of its way was to crouch, with my back to the side of the refrigerated compartment, and pray. The labour seemed to have been a bit sharper and had disappeared into an empty compartment.
So, having missed the first onslaught I now had no option but to witness the second! That was caused by the wooden hatch slabs acting as a springboard and causing most of the frozen egg cartons to bounce back up into the air. Again the law of gravity did its stuff proving that what goes up must come down. It did just that and I found myself half buried in the damned stuff.
Well, apart from a bit of bruising and surprisingly, a broken metal buckle on one of my shoes, I survived and was able to climb up on deck.
Just another of those instances which had Sister Elleff once remarking that I seemed to have led a charmed life!

China hand
21st June 2011, 18:31
Jardines or CNco: A world apart. Dreamy days.

MikeK
21st June 2011, 19:42
Jardines or CNco: A world apart. Dreamy days.

Amen to that ![=P]

Mike

R651400
19th July 2011, 05:36
#33 & #34 Interesting last two postings.
Pity there are no forums listed for Hong Kong companies as there certainly would be a lot of interest from Far Easters ie the reasons for what appear as rivalry between B & S and Jardines both Blue Funnel and Glen Line agents.
How about requesting Hong Kong companies as a separate forum so that we can read about those and others eg Manners etc.

Hugh Ferguson
19th July 2011, 09:08
Wondering if any of you old China hands ever bumped into a Leslie Money in Hong Kong?

John Briggs
19th July 2011, 11:28
A forum for Hong Kong companies would be a great idea.
The tramps and steamers out of Hong Kong were a large part of our maritime heritage and provided jobs for hundreds of British seafarers.
Most of the officers and masters on HK ships came out of established liner companies and were looking for a bit of romance sailing the China seas.

R651400
14th August 2011, 11:42
A forum for Hong Kong companies would be a great idea.
Think you'll have to ask webmaster for the category or place Jardine Matheson/Manners/ Butterfield Swire/Straits SS et al in the shipping index.

sonofchippy2
2nd October 2012, 22:25
The thumbnail is of a piece I found stuck on the back of a fine painting I have of the Glenroy. Nice place for a boy to grow up in, a home overlooking Scott's Yard, Greenock.

My father served on Glenroy during the war, My website glenroy.freeservers.com has photos and variuos articles.
Including engineering details. I would love to see a picture of your painting. I have photos but want to someday make a model of glenroy in her wartrime role. Finding details out is actually pretty hard.
i have a request from ScottishNational archives for her plans, But as she was modified several times during the war, the devil is in the detail.