Engineering questions

John Cassels
21st December 2005, 20:02
I wonder if there others like me ; deck people who always wanted to ask a
question about engines but were afraid to do so.

Mine has always been the following and as it concernes 40 years ago, I think
I can ask it now.

In the 1960's sailed on many of the Denholms ore carriers with opposed
piston doxfords - 3 or 4 cylinder depending on the class. I often heard the
engineering staff refer to something called the "wrong way alarm".
This was long before computers and automated engine rooms.
Some of our engineers used to make rather degrading remarks about the
main engine and call it terrible names , but if an opposed piston doxford
was smart enough to know that it was turning the wrong way then it couldn't have that bad.

Can any of our engineering bretheren shed any light ?.

JC

Derek Roger
21st December 2005, 20:47
The wrong way alarm was interlinked between the engin telegraph and the engin . If the engin was to be run in a direction oposite to that requested ( bridge )and answered ( E/R ) on the telegraph the alarm would sound . There would be different configurations of exactly how this was achieved depending on the telegraph and engin manufacturer. I will go back to my books and see if I can find some detailed arrangements if anyone is interested .
Derek

ARRANMAN35
21st December 2005, 21:18
The wrong way alarm was interlinked between the engin telegraph and the engin . If the engin was to be run in a direction oposite to that requested ( bridge )and answered ( E/R ) on the telegraph the alarm would sound . There would be different configurations of exactly how this was achieved depending on the telegraph and engin manufacturer. I will go back to my books and see if I can find some detailed arrangements if anyone is interested .
Derek
The Wrong Way Alarm was just that, an Alarm, from my dim recollection it was
a small DC generator attached to the end of the camshaft and if the output
differed from the telegraph instruction an alarm panel lit and a horn sounded on
the starting platform.
3cyl Doxfords were notorious for starting the Wrong Way,as what occured on the Naess Trader at Port Talbot when she struck the piles at the Smokeless
Fuel Plant adjacent to Margram Wharf, damaging her steering gear.

Derek Roger
21st December 2005, 23:05
Arran ;
I never sailed with 3 leg Dox ( only 5 cyl P type ) but I did hear they were notorious for tricks during starting attempts . Apparently they would sometimes fail to start ( Say Ahead ) and the engineer would then have to give a kick astern ; stop and try again .
Of course everytime this would happen the wrong way alarm would sound as it was the opposite mavement from that requested by the telegraph .Then the phone would go with some irate Old Man asking questions .
Doxfords were a handfull on Stand Bye without having to chat on the phone about things which were beyond the scope of bridge compehension in any event .
Derek
PS Think there may be a wee bit of fall out on this subject ??

Doxfordman
21st December 2005, 23:14
I think the wrong way alarm has been done to death.....

Lets get in the "fall out"

Derek Roger
22nd December 2005, 00:34
G,Day Mate ; Knew you would enter the fray ! Derek ( This should really be in your new site )

Derek Roger
22nd December 2005, 00:49
Dox cant find the site so will post a little Telegraph incident entering Melborne on the Mahout9 (67/68 ) on this post . You would know when as the Melborne Cup was on at the time . Didnt make it for the Cup but went to the Oaks Next Day and picked the winner ( 33to1 I think ) payed hansomley anyway and I was able to afford to take my girlfriend and her parents to dinner afterwards . They had been kind enough to take me out for the day .

Derek Roger
22nd December 2005, 01:08
When 5th Eng on Mahout 67/68 our 2nd Eng was put ashore in hospital in Sydney and we got a temp for a few ports from the Aussie pool . Guy was called John from the Gorbals ( Glasgow ) and quite a diamond in the rough . He was 2nd on the Aussie coast on an ore carrier .
I called him Gorbals John ( which he seemed to like ; me being from Scotland )
We were entering Melborne and the Mahout was not using the bridge control due to gremlins which we had not at that time managed to exorcise .

John was on the sticks and I the Telegraph. We were getting lots of orders and usually before we could start the engine another order would be rung etc etc .We were running a bit low on Air and the telegraph stared its dance again ; I was answereing but John was doing Nothing ! just looking at the telegraph .

I said "John you better give them Something ? "

" Get me the Bridge " I obliged and called and passed the phone over and observed the following conversation .

" Whos this ?" pause " Piss off and give me the old Man " Pause "
" Hello Captain 2 nd Engineer here . Tell the Pilot to get his baces out of the F*****ing Telegraph were just about out of starts ! "

We got no more orders ; the vessel was put alongside with Tugs .

Derek
I have another story about John but think it may be better in Mess Deck than this post .

Doxfordman
22nd December 2005, 03:09
Derek,

I'm in!! There is no engineering thread, only a picture gallery thread for mechanical things. Perhaps we should have a "Tales from Engine Room", thread???

I, as many of us, I am sure, have been in similar circumstances with the use of air and demands from the telegraph. The old Doxford's where a work of art to get going sometimes - what with fuel pressure to maintain, air pressure to maintain, selecting ahead / astern and coordinating the air start lever with the fuel lever and hopeing that you would not blow a relief valve, cause we all know what happens then! And just to compound it most of our older ships had twin engines.

I have seen it and actually done it on many occasions, ring the bridge and advise them they have one start remaining, "your choice boys ahead or astern but only one so make it count, then its 10mins before the next one. I hope we lines on the tugs?!" Sailed with one Chief who instisted that an engineer, normally a junior or a cadet, was on the bridge driving the "stick" with bridge control - as you can imagine that went down like lead balloon.

Derek Roger
22nd December 2005, 03:46
In my latter days as Chief on bridge control vessels and with competant 2nds ( of which all our ships had ) I spent most of the Stand Bye on the bridge .Not the approaches but the final docking and close waters .
The Company had a disaster on one vessel which hit the quay in Colombo setting back the bow 22 feet ( folded up like an accordion up to the collision bulkhead ) Vessel had bridge control and when the ship didnt respond to the Ka Me Wa ( CP Propeller ) the old man apparently said thats it nothing I can do . He in fact could have clutched out the engines or hit the Emergency Stop. It would not have given him control but it would have stopped a full power collision with the Quay.
My presence on the bridge was never an issue and all the Captains I sailed with were happy with the idea . I had a good relationship with all the Old Men I sailed with and there was mutual respect of our different talents .
When I was apprentice 2 or 3 times a trip the deck and engin apprentices would have to reverse rolls .

Deck had to do the E/R telegraph and fill in the Log and E/R apprentices do the Bridge Job . Taught us both and gave us understanding of each others jobs .
I wonder if that was something exclusive to Brocks or was it the norm ?
It certainley did help us all at that time .
Derek

Doxfordman
22nd December 2005, 04:59
The deck / engine exchange was the same on all of our ships, and yes it gave each an insight as to what went on in the different departments. I cam remember we had, as cadets, a little booklet that had to be filled in on each voyage, as a cadet, you did. I am sure there was bridge time in there that had to be signed off. The "purple peril" is was known as, the booklet that is? Maybe that was just for NZSC?? We also had to keep a journal of our time at sea. I never actually bothered, mores the pity. I also did not keep a record of who and when sailed with various people.

John Cassels
22nd December 2005, 09:16
Gentlemen , thank you for the explanation of the wrong way alarm.

As a young deck apprentice in the early 60's there was something
facinating about watching an opposed piston doxford in operation
though I dare say the facination was not shared by the E.R.staff.

Tell me , what and where is the entablature. That's my second and
last question.

JC

Peter Fielding
22nd December 2005, 17:48
The entablature is the area on top of the crankcase, where the camshaft, fuel valves, air start valves, relief valves etc. live.
Just to add to the collection of exchanges between Engine Room and Bridge on the subject of air pressure, "You've got one more start, or two toots on the whistle."
Seasons Greetings to all our readers! (To quote the back of many toilet doors.)
Peter

Derek Roger
22nd December 2005, 17:50
The main frame of a diesel engine housing the liners etc as opposed to the bedplate which supports the crankshaft and the cylider heads which are self explanetory .
On a small engine like a car it would be called the engine block .
If I havnt got it right someone will correct me Im sure . .
Derek

Doxfordman
23rd December 2005, 00:18
The "Entablature" on a meduim speed or high speed engine is commanly referred to as the engine block, it houses the cylinders, liners, water jackets, pistons and camshafts, cylinder heads (covers) are bolted to the top of the entablature and the crankshaft is either fitted to a bedplate to which the entalature is bolted to or underslung and a fixed to the lower portion o fthe entablature.

In a slow speed engine the entablature is the uper part of the engine or the "middles" the water jackets, scavange spaces and on some engines the camshafts and fuel injection equipment along with the combustion belt. The enablature is a fixed to crankcase coloums which form the engine frame which are in turn bolted to the engine bedplate. On some engines very large bolts extent through the engine frame to the bedplate and up through the upper regions of the water jackets. Called "tie bolts" these bolts hold the engine together both in tension and compression. These engines are known as catherdral engines due to the sheer size of them, some as large as three story houses and most allowing persons to actually get inside to work. Standing on piston crowns to grind carbon rings away from the top edge of a liner to enable pistons to be withdrawn was / is the norm.

That's it can I do my oral now?

moaf
23rd December 2005, 00:21
Well done Mr Dox, I am pleased to anounce you've passed!! Now, in keeping with tradition, you should go and have a skin full!

Doxfordman
23rd December 2005, 00:25
Thanks mate but from my recolection it's YOUR shout! (Night)

Takling of which, which we wern't does anyone remember the book that had to taken around to each officer, the old man and the chief to get them to sign it to advise everyone of a shout in the bar. We had books for Clox, AC going on / off, shouts, and of course the turning gear book!

Derek Roger
23rd December 2005, 00:33
Didnt need a book in Brocks Dox ( No Bludgers ) everyone had their shout although it was discouraged a bit so that juniors would not be expected to treat the old buggers who were earning a lot more . . On a Birthday it was always Birthday Boy who paid the chit !

Derek Roger
23rd December 2005, 00:37
Dox Im considering passing you but may have to give some mark down on the spelling ( Thats Rich coming from me ! )
Remember in the orals you will be asked to " Blow a Glass " and an error is immediate failure and 6 months sea time before a resit .
Derek

Doxfordman
23rd December 2005, 00:58
Del,
My spelling is unfortunately is sh.t, however the examiner must have understood me.

I had better get a glass and learn to blow.

We knock of in an hour or two for 11 days, so

Pip pip and have a good one.

Derek Roger
23rd December 2005, 01:06
Enjoy the break . Merry Christmas and a safe leave . Derek

Riptide
7th April 2008, 17:07
Dox Im considering passing you but may have to give some mark down on the spelling ( Thats Rich coming from me ! )
Remember in the orals you will be asked to " Blow a Glass " and an error is immediate failure and 6 months sea time before a resit .
Derek
Blow a glass,I always wondered how they did this yard of ale without getting wet.Kenny.(Pint) (Pint) (==D)

raybnz
8th April 2008, 10:03
The Cretic had these noisy things fitted to her Doxfords. Bloody things were no good if one was suffering the effects of to much oral lubrication. But I suppose they served a purpose for someone who was not with it and watching what he was doing.

On the WC Daldy they were fitted to her Triple expansion engines after a episode during her working career with the Auckland Harbour Board.

Then a couple of years ago the bridge blamed the E.R. staff for a cock up during berthing and so louder "Wrong Way" alarms were fitted.

Aha you might say but we knew where the fuses were but failing that I would stuff a rag in the Hooter to give me some peace.

Where there is a will there is always a way.

JoK
8th April 2008, 10:16
When you say they were notorious for starting the wrong way did that include intaking through the exhaust and exhausting through the intake?

Bill Davies
8th April 2008, 10:41
Any of you men conversant with the procedure for 'drilling out' cylinder head bolts on Pielstick Engines( or any engine for that matter)

twogrumpy
8th April 2008, 20:45
Bill
We had a 3.5MW Pielstick, running dual fuel, on a CHP plant, many problems and mainly when on town gas due to higher temperatures.
I was on the instrument electrical side of things, seem to recall sheared cylinder head bolts did not cause any great problem to remove, even less of a problem when a couple of pistons and con rods came through the side of the crank case.
twogrumpy.

Duncan112
8th April 2008, 21:45
Any of you men conversant with the procedure for 'drilling out' cylinder head bolts on Pielstick Engines( or any engine for that matter)

Best way is to find an engineering shop with a portable spark erosion machine and get them on the job.

Failing that, if the stud has broken above the entablature file it flat, find the exact centre and centre punch it, clamp a drill press directly over it, and starting with a small drill drill holes down the middle, gradually increasing in size until the remains of the stud can be collapsed in on itself and pulled out, hopefully leaving the threads undamaged.

If the bolt has broken below the entablature with a rough fracture then you adopt the same drilling procedure but finding and maintaining the centre is difficult, if there is space between the end of the stud and the top of the entablature then a piece of bar could be turned to make a nice fit in the stud hole and centre drilled to the diameter of the first drill to act as a guide.

The one time I have done this I used the portable Wolf drill press from the elecs workshop and bolted it down using a strongback between 2 good studs.

Sharp drills are essential.

Best of luck.

Duncan.

Steve Woodward
8th April 2008, 21:49
Best way of curing a Pilestick of it's problems would be to remove two ajacent pistons, shackle a large chain through the two cylinders then drop it over the side and use it as a mooring.

surfaceblow
9th April 2008, 04:16
(Jester) We had a saying RED OVER RED Pilestick ahead. The other saying was RED OVER RED SEALIFT AHEAD.

About half of the Sealift Tankers had twin Pilesticks in them and the others were Enterprise Engines. I did my penance on the Enterprise Engine Ships build at Bath Iron Works.

steviej
9th April 2008, 09:47
Any of you men conversant with the procedure for 'drilling out' cylinder head bolts on Pielstick Engines( or any engine for that matter)
I was really enjoying this thread until the word Peilstick Engines was introduced. Should only be seen in Stephen King novels(Cloud)

JoK
9th April 2008, 10:20
Best way of curing a Pilestick of it's problems would be to remove two ajacent pistons, shackle a large chain through the two cylinders then drop it over the side and use it as a mooring.

This is a hilarious comment (Jester)

John Cassels
9th April 2008, 13:47
Take it then that no one would recommend a Pielstick for re-engining my
boat ???.

Bill Davies
9th April 2008, 13:53
One must differentiate between the 'V' and 'In Line'.
The 'V' types as in other makes were never popular but the 'In Line' were good.
Crossley (Manchester) made many (under licence) and had very few problems.

steve2
18th October 2008, 21:46
to Bill Davis-drilling out cylinder head bolts

Not been with a pielstick but we had similar problems with MaK engines.
One method was to turn up a set of dollies that were snug fits into the stud hole in the entableture. These dollies had progresivly larger holes in them so the you could drill down through the remains of the stud until the slight 'drop' said you had reached the bottom. The dollies had to be fairly long to keep the drill parallel. The drills also had to be lengthened by silver soldering to a mandril that fitted into the portable drill. Once the nipple at the end of the stud had been removed the the pressure on the threads would be eased and the stud could then be removed with a very large easyout. All works ok until the easyout shears off.....

Other method was to insert a heavy walled tube into the stud hole, then carefully lower a welding electrode into the tube and weld the tube to the stud. Tube and stud was then removed with a stilson. Again it had dangers as if the weld failed then the top of the stud was effectivly case-hardened.

The second way I avoided like the plague but was company recomended!

Regards Steve2

Burntisland Ship Yard
19th October 2008, 12:03
[QUOTE=Doxfordman;26592]Derek,

I'm in!! There is no engineering thread, only a picture gallery thread for mechanical things. Perhaps we should have a "Tales from Engine Room", thread???

What a good idea, no doubt we all have tales or should I say stories of life down below, no doubt the guys on the bridge may have simliar.

Perhaps we can collate all the stories and produce a book, I am sure we all have stuff we could put in !

jimmys
19th October 2008, 12:41
There were properly machined stud extractors specific to the job. These were tapered and had a scroll thread that was left handed. A plain hole was drilled in the sheared stud and the extractor inserted. The anti clockwise turning of the extractor in the plain hole drove the extractor home and turned the stud out.
The hole was drilled using the windy drill and strongback.
The older Crossley engines tended to be run on a better grade of fuel than such as the PC4 V10 on heavy oil. Holes in the exhaust valves you can put you finger in. Blowpast in the pistons into the crankcase. Not very nice.

A mooring might be the best idea I have heard for them.

regards
jimmy

R58484956
20th October 2008, 10:43
We used to call them "easy outs" , sometimes not so easy.

Sarky Cut
20th October 2008, 11:00
Would the readers take care not to trip over the piston rod whilst exiting this thread and mind the cable strung across the door way as a trip hazard.

Tha white stuff you are working with is not coke its asbestos.

Happy days.

Pat Hughes
20th October 2008, 11:45
We used to call them "easy outs" , sometimes not so easy.

I have always known them as 'easy outs' .

Jimmy,

One thing you must do when drilling out a sheared cylinder head stud is that when drilling is commenced with the centreing drill (slow speed) you must penetrate the stud cap ( penetrate entablature) otherwise no 'easy out ' will remove the stud. As you increase the drill size to accomodate the 'easy out' further penetration of the cap may be necessary. A company in Dordrecht, Bolier, patented an stud extractor which had variable acceptance.

chadburn
20th October 2008, 13:33
The left hand "swirl" on the easyouts was a far better way than the left hand "cowmouth" chisel!!

Pat Hughes
20th October 2008, 13:38
One had to be very careful when using an 'easy out' (EO) that you left enough meat on the stud. I have witnessed over ambitious people leaving insufficient for the 'EO' to grip resulting in 'picking out' the thread. Long and labourious.

jimmys
20th October 2008, 14:47
I always thought of easyouts as a small kit of extractors for studs such as crankcase doors. Up to maybe 25mm studs. We are drilling a 10mm hole max.When we are in a 70mm shouldered stud on a main engine it is a different baby. We are drilling a 35mm hole. It usually shears under the shoulder where the stud enters the entablature at the thread undercut. This undercut is the weakest part of the shouldered stud. Thats why the undercut is there. We can see the full sheared area. We centre pop the sheared area and drill one hole in the stud, usually half the thread diameter using an air driven drill with morse taper drills. The extractor is then used.
I dont know how many I have seen removed using this methed, quite a lot, its usually successful. May need a controlled heat in the stud to expand in the thread and let it cool and come away. NB you do not heat the entablature.
Everybody is on the same thing just different procedures and names.

There was plenty of asbestos about, a pity no coke, snort,snort, snort.

regards
jimmy

surfaceblow
20th October 2008, 16:09
I have in the past welded a nut to the broken stud. Then used the impact wrench to remove the broken stud. The reason for welding was that the easy out was broken in the stud. For smaller studs a left hand drill bit does easy work on removal of broken studs and bolts you do not need to use the easy out in most cases.

Derek Roger
20th October 2008, 16:39
I agree with Jimmys that one should not heat the entablature however I have heard that dry ice applied to the drilled cavity to shrink a stubborn stud before using the extractor works well .

Cheers Derek

Philthechill
21st October 2008, 00:32
"Easy-outs"? About as much use as an ****-pocket in a vest!

My experience of them was that they tended to work like an expander! As you tightened the "easy-out", into the broken stud you were trying to remove, it was, effectively, "swelling" (expanding) the stud remnants into the tapped hole you were trying to remove it from, until you suddenly had that sphincter loosening moment when the poxy thing broke-off, flush with the top of the broken stud!

Now that's when you realised "easy-outs" were as wrongly named as anything has ever been as you were then faced with not only trying to remove a broken stud, but also a pot-hard "easy-out"!

For me the only way to remove a broken stud was to drill the effing things out. You had to be patient, and make certain you got the initial pilot hole cock-on centre, but, once you'd done that, then, "Robert was your Father's Brother"!

"Easy-outs"? No ta! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Derek Roger
21st October 2008, 01:11
"Easy-outs"? About as much use as an ****-pocket in a vest!

My experience of them was that they tended to work like an expander! As you tightened the "easy-out", into the broken stud you were trying to remove, it was, effectively, "swelling" (expanding) the stud remnants into the tapped hole you were trying to remove it from, until you suddenly had that sphincter loosening moment when you were skinning your knuckles as the poxy thing broke-off, flush with the top of the broken stud!

Now that's when you realised "easy-outs" were as wrongly named as anything has ever been as you were then faced with not only trying to remove a broken stud, but also a pot-hard "easy-out"!

For me the only way to remove a broken stud was to drill the effing things out. You had to be patient, and make certain you got the initial pilot hole cock-on centre, but, once you'd done that, then, "Robert was your Father's Brother"!

"Easy-outs"? No ta! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Try frezzing the stud Phil ( The Chill ) it comes out easily ~!!!!!! ( your name would indicate you would Know That .

REGARDS Derek

Philthechill
21st October 2008, 12:34
Derek, with all due respect, I would just like to make one or two observations about your dry-ice method of removing a broken stud!

First and foremost how the 'kin 'ell do you get hold of dry ice when you're way out on the oggin? B.O.C. Cryogenics ain't going to deliver that's for sure!

Secondly. Exactly how do you apply the dry ice so's it's going to do its work? The theory about utilising the extreme cold (-78C) of dry-ice for shrinking parts for fitting into interference-fit holes is well understood, in engineering circles (I've used liquid R.22 similarly. Even putting the part in question in a cold store at -25C for an hour or two can give the desired result), and the fact that it sublimates makes it even more attractive.
Dry ice, as you will know, usually comes in blocks so quite how you get it into sufficently small bits to "sit" on top of a broken-off stud/easy-out to chill it down to facilitate removal puzzles me somewhat!!

I dare say you could drill a hole into the stud, get a piece of 1/4" copper-pipe hooked-up to a bottle of refrigerant and bubble some liquid refrigerant into the drilled hole, in the stud, thus freezing it down and shrinking it but can you imagine the screams of anguish from the "Save the Planet" fashionistas if they knew you were wilfully allowing ANY refrigerant to vapourise in the open!!! They'd be almost human in their intensity!!!

Even if you were using liquid NH3 (bit dangerous!!!!), for the operation, you would still be severely censured by the do-gooders and they would be on your case big-time 'cos to them ALL refrigerants are CFC/HCFC's and can damage the ozone layer (incidentally what happened to THAT flavour-of-the-month horror-scenario?).

Anyway, I digress!!!

Provided you've got the confidence/ability I still think drilling the effers out is really the only recourse when you're trying to get a busted stud out of an 'ole! Salaams, I remain, Yours Truly, PhilTHEchill(Hippy) P.S. (Much, much later! I WAS joking about using NH3!!!

Pat Hughes
21st October 2008, 12:59
I am with you on that one.

billyboy
21st October 2008, 13:17
Be interesting to know why the stud broke in the first place. Over tightening perhaps? over adjusted with a flogging hammer? or "Ruined under stress tension" (rust)

steve2
21st October 2008, 19:31
Steve2

Main reason why the studs failed is that the engine builders uprate the engines and fail to uprate the quality/size of the stud materials. They only increase the tightening torque.
Other reason can be is that if there is a slight cooling water leak then the water sits in the stub hole happily evaportaing away eventualy causing caustic embritlement. Ever noticed that studs either shear just before handover- or when you're on a long distance full power tow. We once had an enerpack jack mounted between the Lifting beam and a heavy wall tube down on the head where the stud had failed for two weeks. Worked.

Cheers all, mines a bucket!

jimmys
21st October 2008, 20:54
It was getting a bit cold in this thread with Phil there. Evidently a frig man. We won't mention heat again.
In the area of studs and entablature, sometimes it is not caustic embrittlement but the phenomenon of differential aeration. This corrosion is found in the upper entablature including under shouldered studs. The chemical treatment of jacket water usually negates the former.

Between buckets of beer and coke I dont know where this thread is going.

regards
jimmy

orcades
25th October 2008, 01:17
Well I dont know where you motor men have been but us senior steam men were using the drilling method on sheared cylinder head bolts on 3 legged steam jobs many years ago also on Weirs feed pumps and any other bolt that seized or stud that sheared. All it required was acuracy and patience, softly softly catchy monkey. So to cement relations between Steam and Motor the Mac e ones [remmber them] are on me.

cmakin
25th October 2008, 01:52
(Jester) We had a saying RED OVER RED Pilestick ahead. The other saying was RED OVER RED SEALIFT AHEAD.

About half of the Sealift Tankers had twin Pilesticks in them and the others were Enterprise Engines. I did my penance on the Enterprise Engine Ships build at Bath Iron Works.


Man, I remember those ships. I used to spend quite a bit of time on them in the Houston area when I was with ABS.

surfaceblow
25th October 2008, 02:12
Man, I remember those ships. I used to spend quite a bit of time on them in the Houston area when I was with ABS.

Yes memories, that I can not call fond. More like the Nightmare on Elm Street for the Port Stays.

Joe

Philthechill
26th October 2008, 18:28
I was just trolling through this thread and spotted the advert ("Metal disintegrators") on the bottom of "page" two and gave it a coat of looking-at.

Absolutely brilliant! All ships should carry one of those! No need for slabs of dry-ice (Derek!) or pissed-up blokes (Whoops! Big clanger there! No drink allowed on ships now! 'elf 'n safety y'know!!!) trying to hit dead centre of a broken-off stud before trying to drill it out without the drill "wandering" etc. etc.

Give it a look chaps and curse the day's when WE never had such sophistication! (But we did have grog!!) Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Pat Hughes
27th October 2008, 12:06
Best way is to find an engineering shop with a portable spark erosion machine and get them on the job.

Failing that, if the stud has broken above the entablature file it flat, find the exact centre and centre punch it, clamp a drill press directly over it, and starting with a small drill drill holes down the middle, gradually increasing in size until the remains of the stud can be collapsed in on itself and pulled out, hopefully leaving the threads undamaged.

Sharp drills are essential.

Best of luck.

Duncan.

This is more or less the way I remember it being done with the inclusion of an 'easy out' ( some believe it rather cavalier to drill out too close to the thread ). Can remember a MAK Engineer (PD) arriving on board in Leith to do this job and it took him three and a half hours from setting up his drill to completion. Understand he made a bit of a reputation for himself but other MAK engineers say he was just lucky.

Beartracks
28th October 2008, 03:42
Man, I remember those ships. I used to spend quite a bit of time on them in the Houston area when I was with ABS.

I was offered the CHENG's berth in USNS Sealift Antarctic T-AO 125 after US Lines went "**** up". I had been Chief in MV American Maine the third of the twelve big ECONO-Ships built at Dae Woo in Korea. I loved the Maine and I thought I'd finish my career in her but that was not to be. I had a "hook" at Sea-Land and knew I could land the Maine again after Sea-Land bought her. I got sick of waiting around and responded to an offer from the Marine Engineer's Beneficial Association ( MEBA) to help out and take the Sealift Antarctic for a few months. I had learned in the Military never to volunteer for anything but I hadn't reached the state of enlightenment never to "Help Out" the MEBA in Maritime as of yet. I joined in Houston . It was at the Phillips Petroleum Company Dock in Passadina , Texas and three Police Cars with their blue lights flashing were by the gangway when the cab dropped me off. It seems that two of the AB's had a disagreement while rigging the safety net and one slashed the other with a wicked looking dagger whilst the fellow who had been slashed split the others head open with a spare stanchion. The cops were asking a strange looking chap in a checkered burnoose what he planned to do about this and the fellow done up as an Arab (who happened to also be the Mate) told the cops "I'm going to call the National Maritime Union and order two replacement assholes." I identified myself as the replacement Chief and found my cabin. After introducing my self to the fellow I was to replace I became the recipient of a stream of vitriol directed not at me but towards the Marine Superintendent who had hired me in New Jersey. He then ran off with his bags and when I asked him where his fuel was stored he suggested I ask "Jabba the Hut" and reminded me it wasn't his fuel any longer but was now mine. Jabba the Hut turned out to be a cordial guy who introduced himself as my new First Engineer. Jabba the Hut weighed three hundred and fifty pounds soaking wet. The Antarctic was Bath built and had twin Enterprise V's clutched to a gear reduced single shaft with a Bird Archer CPR Wheel. My first command decision occurred the following day at sea when I was confronted by a jabbering irate Cape Verdean Steward who screamed at me that "Jabba the Hut" ate all the pies he had made for desert. I told the Steward who every body hated anyway to "make some more Goddamn pies" and went off to find the First. I asked the First if he had eaten all the six pies and he told me yes. When I told him "nobody can eat six pies" he informed me that he could and he always does just that when he gets upset. Off sailed USNS Sealift Antarctic on a seven month Odyssey which encircled the known world before she returned to the Gulf of Mexico.

Respectfully submitted;
Hugh D.Curran
Former Chief Engineer
USNS Sealift Antarctic T-AO 125

surfaceblow
28th October 2008, 05:34
Hello Hugh

I sailed on the Arctic, Atlantic and Antarctic as First for a short time 1988 to 1989. The last 2 months on the Antarctic. I ended up getting laid off when MTL lost the contract to operate the Sealifts.

While on one of the Sealifts we were leaving San Diego we shut down one engine to make a time arrival to the San Francisco area after tank cleaning. Once the one engine was shut down the single engine was brought up to speed and promptly started to overheat. Instead of looking into the problem it was decided to put the other engine on line that engine also overheated. Since the only common part of the engine cooling system was the overboard it was quickly determined that the overboard valve gate fell off the stem.

Since we just left the dock attempts to reach the Marine Superintendent by his cell phone, car phone was not successful so has a last resort a call to his house. When his wife answered that he was still on the ship we knew we were not going to get any help and couldn't leave a message to call the ship.

It was decided to list the ship to get the overboard valve above the water line. While we were pumping water the USCG called the ship to advise us that we were listing and drifting to Mexico.

The Captain had a pilot ladder rigged so he could see when the overboard cleared the water line. One of the General Vessel Assistant (GVA) was tending the ladder when I came out of the Engine room. The GVA asked me why we were stopped. I told him that the Captain was checking for a whale stuck in the overboard line. When the Captain climbed back onboard I was hit because the Captain started to laugh so hard that he almost fell off the ladder.

I went back into the engine room and removed the bonnet and pulled the disc out of the valve. Has soon as most of the list was removed one engine was restarted and we went out to tank clean.

The next day the Marine Superintendent was trying to find the ship so the new overboard valve could be installed. A few days later we received the new valve, gaskets and fasteners arrived along with divers to blank the side of the ship. We could not list the ship this time because we were loaded.

Joe

Philthechill
28th October 2008, 17:57
Hugh! Joe! Good yarns! Let's have some more! "Jabba the Hut" sounds as if he could be quite a sight at 350 pounds! Was he "built" or just a very fat man? Anyway more yarns please! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Beartracks
30th October 2008, 03:45
Hugh! Joe! Good yarns! Let's have some more! "Jabba the Hut" sounds as if he could be quite a sight at 350 pounds! Was he "built" or just a very fat man? Anyway more yarns please! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Phil;

"Jabba the Hut" was big and bulky but he was also as strong as an ox. He was also one of the finest machinists I've ever been shipmates with. There was nothing he couldn't do on the lathe and he'd utilize a small milling device that he'd mount on the tool post to fabricate replacement parts that were mind boggling. I recall the Leslie Typhoon timing device that would sound the ship's air horn periodically in foggy conditions went down hard. I opened the casing of the device and saw that all the bronze timing gears had self destructed and parts of them fell on the deck after I opened the mechanism.
"Jabba the Hut" fabricated a whole new set of replacement timing gears in about six hours and I'll bet that damned timer is still running like new if they haven't made razor blades of Sealift Antarctic yet. Last I heard of her she's under Panamanian Flag and hauling casing head crude from Venezuela to Brazil.

Like most of us though he did have a number of vices eating six cherry pies for a snack being a vice made obvious to me on the first day out. The second vice though less obvious was mentioned to me a few days later by the Pumpman. It seems that Jabba had an eye out for a "well turned ankle" and the object of his affections was a female GVA ( General Vessel Assistant ) who was called "Anna Banana" by all on board. GVA was a rating dreamed up by the "bean counters" in the home office in New Jersey. A GVA was supposed to work in all three departments on board a Tanker but on all the vessels I sailed in I reckoned that the purpose of the GVA's was to set off dreadful rows between the Mate , the First Engineer and the Steward over which one of the three would get to use the GVA's on a particular day. I received a call one morning at 0400 from the Mate informing me that "Jabba the Hut" was missing and that the Captain was going to turn the ship around and hunt for Jabba on a reciprocal course. I arose and thought of the story that Pumps had told me of Jabba's infatuation with "Anna Banana" and decided to knock on her cabin door. Sure enough there was "Jabba the Hut" frantically pulling his Boiler Suit on while poor "Anna Banana" hid under the covers.

I called the Mate and informed that fellow (he was the officer who I met at the gang way dressed like an Arab) that "Jabba the Hut" had been found in the quarters of "Anna Banana" and it didn't dawn upon me until later that I had made a dreadful mistake. It seems that the Mate had also become infatuated with "Anna Banana" and had escorted her ashore in Puerto La Cruz , Venezuela where he had wined and dined her at the most regal dinning spot in that Tanker Port on Lake Maracibro.

Onward proceeded Sealift Antarctic for her discharge port of Halvarjorforjd , Iceland.

Respectfully submitted;
Hugh D.Curran
Former Chief Engineer
USNS Sealift Antarctic T-AO - 125

surfaceblow
30th October 2008, 04:50
Those GVA's are always causing problems on the Sealifts.

We were just leaving the Panama Canal heading into the Atlantic. The Pilot was escorted to the Pilot Ladder by the Mate on Watch. The Chief Mate and Bosun walked back to the Pilot Ladder to see the Pilot got safety off the vessel leaving the GVA my himself on the Bow. We just got a full ahead when the Captain announced on the Loud Speaker System that the Pilot was away. Just then the ship did an abrupt turn. It turned out that the GVA dropped the anchor just as we were going thorough the breakwater. The ship turned 90 degrees blocking the channel and both engines went into over-speed trip when the clutches were unclutched from the bridge.

The office decided that the root cause for the incident was the Captain using the PA System and not leaving the GVA by himself on the bow.

Joe

Philthechill
1st November 2008, 23:47
Phil;

"Jabba the Hut" was big and bulky but he was also as strong as an ox. He was also one of the finest machinists I've ever been shipmates with. There was nothing he couldn't do on the lathe and he'd utilize a small milling device that he'd mount on the tool post to fabricate replacement parts that were mind boggling. I recall the Leslie Typhoon timing device that would sound the ship's air horn periodically in foggy conditions went down hard. I opened the casing of the device and saw that all the bronze timing gears had self destructed and parts of them fell on the deck after I opened the mechanism.
"Jabba the Hut" fabricated a whole new set of replacement timing gears in about six hours and I'll bet that damned timer is still running like new if they haven't made razor blades of Sealift Antarctic yet. Last I heard of her she's under Panamanian Flag and hauling casing head crude from Venezuela to Brazil.

Like most of us though he did have a number of vices eating six cherry pies for a snack being a vice made obvious to me on the first day out. The second vice though less obvious was mentioned to me a few days later by the Pumpman. It seems that Jabba had an eye out for a "well turned ankle" and the object of his affections was a female GVA ( General Vessel Assistant ) who was called "Anna Banana" by all on board. GVA was a rating dreamed up by the "bean counters" in the home office in New Jersey. A GVA was supposed to work in all three departments on board a Tanker but on all the vessels I sailed in I reckoned that the purpose of the GVA's was to set off dreadful rows between the Mate , the First Engineer and the Steward over which one of the three would get to use the GVA's on a particular day. I received a call one morning at 0400 from the Mate informing me that "Jabba the Hut" was missing and that the Captain was going to turn the ship around and hunt for Jabba on a reciprocal course. I arose and thought of the story that Pumps had told me of Jabba's infatuation with "Anna Banana" and decided to knock on her cabin door. Sure enough there was "Jabba the Hut" frantically pulling his Boiler Suit on while poor "Anna Banana" hid under the covers.

I called the Mate and informed that fellow (he was the officer who I met at the gang way dressed like an Arab) that "Jabba the Hut" had been found in the quarters of "Anna Banana" and it didn't dawn upon me until later that I had made a dreadful mistake. It seems that the Mate had also become infatuated with "Anna Banana" and had escorted her ashore in Puerto La Cruz , Venezuela where he had wined and dined her at the most regal dinning spot in that Tanker Port on Lake Maracibro.

Onward proceeded Sealift Antarctic for her discharge port of Halvarjorforjd , Iceland.

Respectfully submitted;
Hugh D.Curran
Former Chief Engineer
USNS Sealift Antarctic T-AO - 125Hugh! Excellent! But you can't leave us there! What happened to "Jabba", "Anna" and the Arab-dressing Ch. Mate? Did it all end in tears, did "Jabba" and "Anna" get to-gether and produce lots of mini-Jaba's or did she ride off into the sunset on the back of the Ch. Mate's camel? More! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

martyn greenhalgh
2nd November 2008, 00:58
hi John i sailed with harrisons in the 60s and 70s most of the ships had doxford engines.i have never heard that expresion but could have a guess,on the older engines there were three control levers air diesel and forward/reverse to change eng direction the later lever was put into the correct direction.if the next telegraph order was in the other direction it is possible to stop and start again without moving the reverse/forward lever.if you did this im sure the bridge would soon let you know uncertain terms or another eng would let you likewise.

Beartracks
2nd November 2008, 21:07
Arran ;
I never sailed with 3 leg Dox ( only 5 cyl P type ) but I did hear they were notorious for tricks during starting attempts . Apparently they would sometimes fail to start ( Say Ahead ) and the engineer would then have to give a kick astern ; stop and try again .
Of course everytime this would happen the wrong way alarm would sound as it was the opposite mavement from that requested by the telegraph .Then the phone would go with some irate Old Man asking questions .
Doxfords were a handfull on Stand Bye without having to chat on the phone about things which were beyond the scope of bridge compehension in any event .
Derek
PS Think there may be a wee bit of fall out on this subject ??


Derick

During the Second World War the US Maritime Commission developed the "Donald McKay" type Motorship. These vessels were medium sized Cargo Liners being 459 feet long and having a service speed of 151/2 knots. Donald McKay type C-2's were powered by a 6000 BHP a 92 RPM Direct Coupled Sun-Doxford 58J4C low speed 4 cylinder diesel engine. The Sun Shipbuilding Corporation of Chester Pa, had the franchise to erect Doxford Engines in the USA. Twelve Tankers also operated by Sun were fitted with 5 Cylinder Sun Doxfords. I served in a Junior's capacity on both types of vessels and must say I found the Doxford Engine to be Fascinating. The adjective Fascinating was used as an understatement during my three military tours in the Mekong Delta during the war in Southeast Asia when something was so horrifying that it virtually paralyzed one with fear it was the sporty thing to reply "That was Fascinating" after regaining your composure; and believe me when I say that it was fascinating at times to maneuver a Sun-Doxford.

My experience with Sun-Doxfords was in the early 1960's and if I remember correctly all the engineers were missing a digit or two and most including the Chiefs had sunken eyes and small foreheads. In those days I so desperately wanted to fit in I was considering corrective surgery to have at least one finger removed so I'd be less conspicuous. I went in steamers thank Heavens before I succumbed to a surgical procedure. I noticed a wonderful Doxford Song (to be sung to the tune of McNamara's Band) in the Engineering Song section of the Ships Nostalgia thread. In was from a British India Line publication and I think I'll print , enlarge and frame it.

On the Cargo Liner 4 Cylinder Sun-Doxfords the scavenging system was supplied by two rotary blowers mounted behind the engine and driven by chains from the crankshaft , the blower speed being four times that of the crankshaft. Due to torsional vibration in the blower drives the system was re-configured and replaced by two independent , motor driven rotary blowers , this calling for additional generator capacity. When standing close to the Chain Drives one could determine the onset of the torsional vibration by the sudden contraction of his spincer muscle. Now that really was Fascinating..!!!!

Respectfully submitted;
Hugh Curran

Derek Roger
2nd November 2008, 21:55
Facinating is not the word !
On the P type I served on ( carrying Naptha to Okinawa in that long forgotten war ) to handle the sticks was a nightmare . Supposed to be two at the controls but the 3rd Eng had a habit to "wander away " during stand bye !

Which left me the telegraph / movement book . The Sticks Ahd/ Astern ; the Air Start / Fuel setting and the fuel pressure regulating valve which had to be cranked up to start and then down once the fuel pumps got working as the engine reved up . On top of that we had an auxiliary blower ( electric ) which had be be running for starting and it had a change over flap that was supposed to operate automatically but didn't . Instead it was controlled with a spring and a piece of rope which had to be hauled into position to open or close the flap . Once the engine was running and the turbo charger picked up the flap was repositioned and the Aux blower motor stopped .

At the same time one would have to run around adjusting jacket water / piston cooling water and lub oil temps which were fluctuating depending on the fuel setting .
Also running around starting and stopping the Air Compressors

One had to be an Octopus to handle the Damn thing .

Never missed a telegraph order ; probably luck.

Oh Happy Days Derek

Beartracks
3rd November 2008, 15:33
Facinating is not the word !
On the P type I served on ( carrying Naptha to Okinawa in that long forgotten war ) to handle the sticks was a nightmare . Supposed to be two at the controls but the 3rd Eng had a habit to "wander away " during stand bye !

Which left me the telegraph / movement book . The Sticks Ahd/ Astern ; the Air Start / Fuel setting and the fuel pressure regulating valve which had to be cranked up to start and then down once the fuel pumps got working as the engine reved up . On top of that we had an auxiliary blower ( electric ) which had be be running for starting and it had a change over flap that was supposed to operate automatically but didn't . Instead it was controlled with a spring and a piece of rope which had to be hauled into position to open or close the flap . Once the engine was running and the turbo charger picked up the flap was repositioned and the Aux blower motor stopped .

At the same time one would have to run around adjusting jacket water / piston cooling water and lub oil temps which were fluctuating depending on the fuel setting .
Also running around starting and stopping the Air Compressors

One had to be an Octopus to handle the Damn thing .

Never missed a telegraph order ; probably luck.

Oh Happy Days Derek

Derick;

A friend who was a Military Aviator send me this clip. I know it;s not Maritime but it reminded me a bit about maneuvering a Sun-Doxford.
Hugh

From:email removed
Sent: 11/1/2008 1:29:46 P.M. Pacific Standard Time
Subj: Just another hop



Take a look at the following. Talk about skillful use of rudder, managing wing loading, and flawless timing. (And throw in a tad bit of good fortune.)

http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08102703.html


Jim

Archie NS
3rd November 2008, 16:24
Derick

During the Second World War the US Maritime Commission developed the "Donald McKay" type Motorship. These vessels were medium sized Cargo Liners being 459 feet long and having a service speed of 151/2 knots. Donald McKay type C-2's were powered by a 6000 BHP a 92 RPM Direct Coupled Sun-Doxford 58J4C low speed 4 cylinder diesel engine. The Sun Shipbuilding Corporation of Chester Pa, had the franchise to erect Doxford Engines in the USA. Twelve Tankers also operated by Sun were fitted with 5 Cylinder Sun Doxfords. I served in a Junior's capacity on both types of vessels and must say I found the Doxford Engine to be Fascinating. The adjective Fascinating was used as an understatement during my three military tours in the Mekong Delta during the war in Southeast Asia when something was so horrifying that it virtually paralyzed one with fear it was the sporty thing to reply "That was Fascinating" after regaining your composure; and believe me when I say that it was fascinating at times to maneuver a Sun-Doxford.

My experience with Sun-Doxfords was in the early 1960's and if I remember correctly all the engineers were missing a digit or two and most including the Chiefs had sunken eyes and small foreheads. In those days I so desperately wanted to fit in I was considering corrective surgery to have at least one finger removed so I'd be less conspicuous. I went in steamers thank Heavens before I succumbed to a surgical procedure. I noticed a wonderful Doxford Song (to be sung to the tune of McNamara's Band) in the Engineering Song section of the Ships Nostalgia thread. In was from a British India Line publication and I think I'll print , enlarge and frame it.

On the Cargo Liner 4 Cylinder Sun-Doxfords the scavenging system was supplied by two rotary blowers mounted behind the engine and driven by chains from the crankshaft , the blower speed being four times that of the crankshaft. Due to torsional vibration in the blower drives the system was re-configured and replaced by two independent , motor driven rotary blowers , this calling for additional generator capacity. When standing close to the Chain Drives one could determine the onset of the torsional vibration by the sudden contraction of his spincer muscle. Now that really was Fascinating..!!!!

Respectfully submitted;

Hugh Curran

Did you ever sail on any of the Nasty PTF's in your time in the Mekong, they had Napier Deltics and there was a 'Fascinating' engine if ever there was one. I never sailed on one but worked at Napier's on the deltics for a couple of years, I've seen them come into the shop with piston rods sticking out of the crankcase, can't imagine being up in Indian territory on one of those things.

Beartracks
3rd November 2008, 20:52
Did you ever sail on any of the Nasty PTF's in your time in the Mekong, they had Napier Deltics and there was a 'Fascinating' engine if ever there was one. I never sailed on one but worked at Napier's on the deltics for a couple of years, I've seen them come into the shop with piston rods sticking out of the crankcase, can't imagine being up in Indian territory on one of those things.

Archie;

I went up to Tueranne Bay TAD (temporary assigned duty) and I remember the 12 or so Nasty Class PCF's that were there. They were involved in some very clandestine operations up North. If my memory serves me correctly they were under a blanket operation called OPDETLAN Bravo and the missions were directed by SOG MACV (Studies and Observation Group Military Advisement Command Vietnam). An Engine Repair Tender USS Satyr was assigned to provide material support to them and US Navy Enginemen serviced those Napier Deltic Diesels that I believe turned about 5000 RPM. I wouldn't like to be near one of those delta type monsters if it threw a rod through the casing.

Because of the sensitivity of the missions up North no US Navy personnel went on the missions. The skippers were Brits and Norwegians ( I don't know weather military or mercenary)and the crews , including the LDDN (Vietnamese SEALS) commandos aboard the Nastys , were Asian , Vietnamese , Thai and Nungs (ethnic Chinese descendants of "Shanker Jack's" Nationalist Chinese Army). I heard that a couple of SEALs stowed away and went up North for one of the junkets and really got their asses in a sling because they did that.

The PCF's always came back with beau coup prisoners and I remember they used to Chu Hoi ( re indoctrinate )a bunch of them and then send them back out with the "good guys". It was always a queasy feeling having a bunch of Chu Hoi's minding your six. The Chu Hoi re-indoctrination camp was out on an island in the Gulf of Tomkin and if my memory serves me correct those guys out there called themselves "The Sacred Sword of the Patriot League". Some of those Chu Hoi's had "flipped five or six times". We shot up a bunch of sappers placing satchel charges under a DeLong Pier at Vung Tau. The Chu Hois started persuading the survivors to provide inteligence by removing their ears with K-Bar Knives. Boy what fun! I took off like a big assed bird since I was the only officer present and didn't want to sully my brilliant Naval career with activities such as this.

I remember a big sign over the Bar at the Officer's Club at OPLAN -Bravo. It said........."Fighting for Freedom is like F__king for Chastity". But now I'm just like Sergeant O'Kelly , Kipling's old retired Cavalryman.

"Oh it drives me half crazy ' to think of the days
When I rode slap for Gazi, me sword at me side
When we rode Hell for leather
Both Squadrons together
And didn't care weather
We lived or we died.

Now I'm old and I'm nervous
Discharged from the Service
And all I deserve is.............
A shillin' a day".

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Hugh

Beartracks
4th November 2008, 19:54
Archie;

I went up to Tueranne Bay TAD (temporary assigned duty) and I remember the 12 or so Nasty Class PCF's that were there. They were involved in some very clandestine operations up North. If my memory serves me correctly they were under a blanket operation called OPDETLAN Bravo and the missions were directed by SOG MACV (Studies and Observation Group Military Advisement Command Vietnam). An Engine Repair Tender USS Satyr was assigned to provide material support to them and US Navy Enginemen serviced those Napier Deltic Diesels that I believe turned about 5000 RPM. I wouldn't like to be near one of those delta type monsters if it threw a rod through the casing.

Because of the sensitivity of the missions up North no US Navy personnel went on the missions. The skippers were Brits and Norwegians ( I don't know weather military or mercenary)and the crews , including the LDDN (Vietnamese SEALS) commandos aboard the Nastys , were Asian , Vietnamese , Thai and Nungs (ethnic Chinese descendants of "Shanker Jack's" Nationalist Chinese Army). I heard that a couple of SEALs stowed away and went up North for one of the junkets and really got their asses in a sling because they did that.

The PCF's always came back with beau coup prisoners and I remember they used to Chu Hoi ( re indoctrinate )a bunch of them and then send them back out with the "good guys". It was always a queasy feeling having a bunch of Chu Hoi's minding your six. The Chu Hoi re-indoctrination camp was out on an island in the Gulf of Tomkin and if my memory serves me correct those guys out there called themselves "The Sacred Sword of the Patriot League". Some of those Chu Hoi's had "flipped five or six times". We shot up a bunch of sappers placing satchel charges under a DeLong Pier at Vung Tau. The Chu Hois started persuading the survivors to provide inteligence by removing their ears with K-Bar Knives. Boy what fun! I took off like a big assed bird since I was the only officer present and didn't want to sully my brilliant Naval career with activities such as this.

I remember a big sign over the Bar at the Officer's Club at OPLAN -Bravo. It said........."Fighting for Freedom is like F__king for Chastity". But now I'm just like Sergeant O'Kelly , Kipling's old retired Cavalryman.

"Oh it drives me half crazy ' to think of the days
When I rode slap for Gazi, me sword at me side
When we rode Hell for leather
Both Squadrons together
And didn't care weather
We lived or we died.

Now I'm old and I'm nervous
Discharged from the Service
And all I deserve is.............
A shillin' a day".

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi
Hugh

Archie;

I just noticed that I referred to the Nasty Class as PCF's. I was in error and you were correct. The designation was definately PTF. I have an older Janes and in it it says that the first eight were built in Norway (for the US Navy) and then about eight more were built in the states. I belong to a Veterans Organization named the Mobile Riverine Force Association and I heard at a gettogether a couple of years ago that somebody has gotten hold of a surplus PTF down in Florida and is in the process of restoring her to wartime state. Those two Napier Deltic Diesels each rated at 3100 BHP would certainly raise the fuel bill no.......????? PCF's were the Swift Boats and were about 30 feet shorter than the PTFs and at least 12 knots slower.

Best regards;
Hugh

Beartracks
5th November 2008, 02:31
Hugh! Excellent! But you can't leave us there! What happened to "Jabba", "Anna" and the Arab-dressing Ch. Mate? Did it all end in tears, did "Jabba" and "Anna" get to-gether and produce lots of mini-Jaba's or did she ride off into the sunset on the back of the Ch. Mate's camel? More! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

Excuse the hiatus. I've been off on Doxford engines and Nasty Class PTF's in the Gulf of Tomkin and finally got back to reminisce of the long gone voyage of the USS Sealift Antarctic T-AO 125 and of the emotionally charged love triangle between her First Assistant Engineer known as "Jabba the Hut" the Chief Officer who will be refered to hence-forth as "Lawrence of Arabia" and the lovely and enticing GVA (general vessel's assistant) known as "Anna Banana".

Sealift Antarctic was a Build and Charter Tanker. The Military Sealift Command of the US Navy would draft exacting specifications as to the characteristics of a point to point transport tank ship that would suit their requirements and give a letter to suitable operators stating that if such a vessel were made available by a certain date a set daily cost plus charter rate would be paid over a ten year period. With such a letter any bank in its right mind would extend credit to build such a tanker thus freeing the Navy from using its own allotted account to build their own tankers for private companies to operate for them. It should be noted that during the voyage being described the ten year cost plus contract had expired and a new fixed rate charter contract had been negotiated. This new contract resulted in a smaller crew , much less voyage repairs , a continual stream of "nasty grams" from the home office whining about the copious amount of spare parts and overtime being squandered by the department heads and a continual shortage of replacement personnel because the ships had such a bad reputation. "Laurence of Arabia" sent a reply to a nasty letter he received from the Marine Superintendent informing that good gentleman that "a moron was sending me messages and affixing your name to the bottom of them". When I mentioned that this was a good way to get sacked "Laurence of Arabia told me that "the only good thing about being mate on this bucket is the fact that I can tell any body I want to go and f__k themselves and never be sacked for it because they can't find anybody crazy enough to come here as a replacement for me". This was the standard of morale aboard USNS Sealift Antarctica.

During the happy days of the cost plus charter somebody at Military Sealift Command Headquarters sent in his infinite wisdom ten M14 assault rifles complete with six thousand rounds of steel jacketed ball ammunition , four Heckler and Koch MP5 sub machine guns with about 3000 rounds of 9mm ball and four Ithaca 12 gauge combat shotguns complete with number 4 , double 0 and slug ammo. These weapons were intended to arm a ship's MIKE Force which would defend the ship against un-named "hostile groups". The weapons were allotted a secure storage space next to "Laurence of Arabia's" quarters. The money to train anybody in the use of these weapons had become non-existent but Laurence was told he could get replacement ammunition if he trained the mike force. The only thing that wasn't taken into consideration was the fact that Laurence of Arabia had literally no training whatsoever in the use of weapons or the deployment of squad sized small military units. Every weekend Laurence of Arabia would don his burnoose call his Mike Force to duty and drill them in counter boarder tactics and fire and maneuver. It is proof of the existence of a kind and loving Deity that no one in Sealift Antarctic's ship's company lost their lives in the course of these gong shows.

I always did my utmost to be absent during the repel boarder drills but I was interrupted in the course of performing paper work by "Anna Banana". She was carrying the MP5 that Laurence of Arabia had issued to her and told me that she had fired three magazines off the fantail. I asked her if she knew how to disassemble a clean the weapon after firing same and she informed me that "we don't do that". She had been sent by Laurence of Arabia to get me because he needed modifications made to the watertight doors on the well deck. I repaired to the well deck and was told by Laurence that he needed "firing apertures" cut in the doors so he could "pick off the Terrorists" as they were running across the tank deck. I told him that I allowed no hot work on deck but if he got some sailors to remove the doors "Anna Banana" could cut the firing slots under Jabba the Huts supervision in the ships machine shop. The three of them seemed to meld into one entity as they conferred and developed their design for the firing slits. In the course of being briefed by Laurence one of his AB's swept me with the muzzle of his M-14 and I exposed that gent , a chinless wonder we called Yonny , to the natural effervescence of my wild Celtic soul. Yonny told the Captain that the Chief Engineer told him he was going to take his assault rifle away from him and knock his f__king teeth out with the butt plate. The Captain called Laurence of Arabia and told him to disarm Yonny at ONCE.

I love this form. It brings back fond memories. Sealift Antarctic arrived at Iceland and Anna Banana left the ship and flew home. She told the Captain she had personal problems but confided in me that she was in love with a policeman in Mobile , Alabama. I met Jabba the Hut years afterwords. He had lost about one hundred and fifty pounds and was with his new bride (not Anna Banana) he had retired from the sea and seemed content. The last I heard Laurence of Arabia was skipper of a Phillips Petroleum Tanker on the North Slope of Alaska to Columbia River run. The Chief Engineer retired as well and lives now on the Coast of Maine. He teaches Marine Engineering now and then belongs to the Down East Ship Modeler's Guild and is in the on and off process of writing his memoirs. He owns two dogs , Bebe an Australian Sheppard ***** and Princess a German Sheppard *****. Life's a ***** and so are they.!!

Respectfully Submitted;
Hugh D Curran
(former) Chief Engineer
USNS Sealift Antarctis T-AO 125

Fieldsy
5th November 2008, 08:19
Any of you men conversant with the procedure for 'drilling out' cylinder head bolts on Pielstick Engines( or any engine for that matter)


Can't say I remember the practice, and I did 7 trips on the trot on the Linguist, which had twin V10 pielsticks.

Bill Davies
5th November 2008, 12:32
Can't say I remember the practice, and I did 7 trips on the trot on the Linguist, which had twin V10 pielsticks.

You will find the previous posts will be helpfull as the procedure was well addressed.

Fieldsy
5th November 2008, 16:11
You will find the previous posts will be helpfull as the procedure was well addressed.

Sorry - didn't make myself clear. Used the method plenty of times but never in relation to cylinder head bolts on a Pielstick. The nightmare we had is that V12's had been cut down to V10's and balancing gear fitted to compensate. It regularly used to self-destruct.

Philthechill
5th November 2008, 20:01
Excuse the hiatus. I've been off on Doxford engines and Nasty Class PTF's in the Gulf of Tomkin and finally got back to reminisce of the long gone voyage of the USS Sealift Antarctic T-AO 125 and of the emotionally charged love triangle between her First Assistant Engineer known as "Jabba the Hut" the Chief Officer who will be refered to hence-forth as "Lawrence of Arabia" and the lovely and enticing GVA (general vessel's assistant) known as "Anna Banana".

Sealift Antarctic was a Build and Charter Tanker. The Military Sealift Command of the US Navy would draft exacting specifications as to the characteristics of a point to point transport tank ship that would suit their requirements and give a letter to suitable operators stating that if such a vessel were made available by a certain date a set daily cost plus charter rate would be paid over a ten year period. With such a letter any bank in its right mind would extend credit to build such a tanker thus freeing the Navy from using its own allotted account to build their own tankers for private companies to operate for them. It should be noted that during the voyage being described the ten year cost plus contract had expired and a new fixed rate charter contract had been negotiated. This new contract resulted in a smaller crew , much less voyage repairs , a continual stream of "nasty grams" from the home office whining about the copious amount of spare parts and overtime being squandered by the department heads and a continual shortage of replacement personnel because the ships had such a bad reputation. "Laurence of Arabia" sent a reply to a nasty letter he received from the Marine Superintendent informing that good gentleman that "a moron was sending me messages and affixing your name to the bottom of them". When I mentioned that this was a good way to get sacked "Laurence of Arabia told me that "the only good thing about being mate on this bucket is the fact that I can tell any body I want to go and f__k themselves and never be sacked for it because they can't find anybody crazy enough to come here as a replacement for me". This was the standard of morale aboard USNS Sealift Antarctica.

During the happy days of the cost plus charter somebody at Military Sealift Command Headquarters sent in his infinite wisdom ten M14 assault rifles complete with six thousand rounds of steel jacketed ball ammunition , four Heckler and Koch MP5 sub machine guns with about 3000 rounds of 9mm ball and four Ithaca 12 gauge combat shotguns complete with number 4 , double 0 and slug ammo. These weapons were intended to arm a ship's MIKE Force which would defend the ship against un-named "hostile groups". The weapons were allotted a secure storage space next to "Laurence of Arabia's" quarters. The money to train anybody in the use of these weapons had become non-existent but Laurence was told he could get replacement ammunition if he trained the mike force. The only thing that wasn't taken into consideration was the fact that Laurence of Arabia had literally no training whatsoever in the use of weapons or the deployment of squad sized small military units. Every weekend Laurence of Arabia would don his burnoose call his Mike Force to duty and drill them in counter boarder tactics and fire and maneuver. It is proof of the existence of a kind and loving Deity that no one in Sealift Antarctic's ship's company lost their lives in the course of these gong shows.

I always did my utmost to be absent during the repel boarder drills but I was interrupted in the course of performing paper work by "Anna Banana". She was carrying the MP5 that Laurence of Arabia had issued to her and told me that she had fired three magazines off the fantail. I asked her if she knew how to disassemble a clean the weapon after firing same and she informed me that "we don't do that". She had been sent by Laurence of Arabia to get me because he needed modifications made to the watertight doors on the well deck. I repaired to the well deck and was told by Laurence that he needed "firing apertures" cut in the doors so he could "pick off the Terrorists" as they were running across the tank deck. I told him that I allowed no hot work on deck but if he got some sailors to remove the doors "Anna Banana" could cut the firing slots under Jabba the Huts supervision in the ships machine shop. The three of them seemed to meld into one entity as they conferred and developed their design for the firing slits. In the course of being briefed by Laurence one of his AB's swept me with the muzzle of his M-14 and I exposed that gent , a chinless wonder we called Yonny , to the natural effervescence of my wild Celtic soul. Yonny told the Captain that the Chief Engineer told him he was going to take his assault rifle away from him and knock his f__king teeth out with the butt plate. The Captain called Laurence of Arabia and told him to disarm Yonny at ONCE.

I love this form. It brings back fond memories. Sealift Antarctic arrived at Iceland and Anna Banana left the ship and flew home. She told the Captain she had personal problems but confided in me that she was in love with a policeman in Mobile , Alabama. I met Jabba the Hut years afterwords. He had lost about one hundred and fifty pounds and was with his new bride (not Anna Banana) he had retired from the sea and seemed content. The last I heard Laurence of Arabia was skipper of a Phillips Petroleum Tanker on the North Slope of Alaska to Columbia River run. The Chief Engineer retired as well and lives now on the Coast of Maine. He teaches Marine Engineering now and then belongs to the Down East Ship Modeler's Guild and is in the on and off process of writing his memoirs. He owns two dogs , Bebe an Australian Sheppard ***** and Princess a German Sheppard *****. Life's a ***** and so are they.!!

Respectfully Submitted;
Hugh D Curran
(former) Chief Engineer
USNS Sealift Antarctis T-AO 125 Hugh! Another excellent "tale from the crypt". If that "Yonny" character had stuck a rifle under my nose I would have shoved it where the sun don't shine and (as a bonus! ) pulled the trigger!!!

However, joking aside. I once had an automatic rifle stuck in my face and it is NOT a pleasant experience!

It was after I'd left the sea and was working in Botswana (Southern Africa), as a diesel-engine "expert" (they never found me out, fortunately!).

Part of my brief was to go to State House (where the President, Sir Seretse Khama lived) once-a-month and check-out the emergency gen-set installed there.

The first time I arrived at the gates, to do the checks, I was confronted by four armed guards (two on "my" side of the gates, and two on the "State House" side). The two, on the inside, had their guns at "the slope" but, one of the two on "my" side had his rifle pointed straight at me, at a range of about twelve feet, while his compadre asked me for my ID.

I was decidedly nervous about having that gun pointed at me and asked for it to be, at least, trained to one side but NOT pointed directly at me.
The guard, asking for my ID, said they were ordered to keep ANY visitors covered in this way, until they were satisfied that everything was in order.

I swear to God that the 9 m.m. hole, in the end of that gun, kept getting bigger and bigger, the longer I looked at it!!!

Once the guard was happy with my ID everything changed and all was sweetness and light. The gun, pointed at me, was lowered, the stern face behind it broke into the sort of big beaming smile, those very friendly people normally greeted you with, and the 100 m.m. calibre, of the rifle, shrank, once more, to 9 m.m. and the gates were swung open!

More of your yarns though Hugh-----------more yarns! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

surfaceblow
6th November 2008, 14:17
I was on an MSC Survey Vessel rebuilding one of the winches and was excused from partaking from the drills for the day. Since there were the Fire and Boat Drill, Man Overboard Drill and Unknown Boarder Drill. I was inside the winch sump refitting gears during most of the Deck Sports. When I popped out of the sump I had a M14 and Shotgun pointed at me by the crew. I was selected to be the unknown boarder the the crew was looking for but no one told me.

This was the same ship that during the monthly firing of the weapons the Captain kicked the Chief Steward when the Steward turned from facing the stern to face forward with the M 14 safety off. The weapon discharged hitting the A frame the bullet ricochet hitting the Steward in the leg. The Official Report by the Captain was he subdued the crazed Steward.

chadburn
6th November 2008, 19:46
Bearcraft, I was interested to read your #69 regarding the use of British/ Norwegians as Skippers on the Nasty PTF's, where would I find any further info on this subject or does it not appear in the Official public domain due to secrecy constraints still in place. It would not be the first time this has happened as R.A.F. crew flew American B? Tornado's on intel mission over Russia during the "Cold War". Deltics "usually" threw a rod on start up as the start up proceedure had to be strictly adhered to if I remember correctly. it was not a matter of doing a quick start on these opposed piston two stroke engines.

Beartracks
12th November 2008, 00:17
Quote: Bearcraft, I was interested to read your #69 regarding the use of British/ Norwegians as Skippers on the Nasty PTF's, where would I find any further info on this subject or does it not appear in the Official public domain due to secrecy constraints still in place. It would not be the first time this has happened as R.A.F. crew flew American B? Tornado's on intel mission over Russia during the "Cold War". Deltics "usually" threw a rod on start up as the start up proceedure had to be strictly adhered to if I remember correctly. it was not a matter of doing a quick start on these opposed piston two stroke engines.

Mr Chadburn;

If you have access to Goggle I'd advise you to do a search for Studies and Operations Group (SOG) Military Advisary Command Vietnam (MACV). The Nasty Class PTF's were operated out of Danang which was part of l CORPS and the unit who administered the PTF Operations was called OPLAN 32 (My memory might be fading but I think OPLAN 32 is correct) which was the Maritime Operations section of SOG. They were going to name SOG special operations group but "higher authority" deemed that not to be advisable since that could "let the cat out of the bag" so they named it Studies and Operations Group instead to make people think it was run by a group of nerdy academics. This proves that Military Intellegece is a contradiction in terms just like Jumbo Shrimp.

Best regards;
HUgh

Steve Woodward
12th November 2008, 00:45
What is the best method of removing carbon deposits, item in question is a burner tube for an Eberspacher diesel heater made of stainless steel, the heater burns red diesel and builds up a hard carbon deposit - the tube is of welded construction and cannot be dismantled.
I have tried caustic soda and this does not do a particularly good job.
Steve

Derek Roger
12th November 2008, 02:16
What is the best method of removing carbon deposits, item in question is a burner tube for an Eberspacher diesel heater made of stainless steel, the heater burns red diesel and builds up a hard carbon deposit - the tube is of welded construction and cannot be dismantled.
I have tried caustic soda and this does not do a particularly good job.
Steve

Carbon is a begger !! You could try someone like Drew Chemicals if they are still around ?

I used an acid to clean my water cooled exhausts on my boat with some success. I got the acid from the local hardware store ( stuff they use for cleaning tile )

Tricky stuff as I still have the holes in my pants to prove it .

Burning it out by heating the whole thing in a fire and giving a good supply of air to the tubes would work and then a final wash in water .

Have you tried to Google " Carbon solvents "

Good luck Derek

K urgess
12th November 2008, 12:12
Doesn't your local petrol head emporium have something that would do the job, Steve? (?HUH)
Failing that have you tried "Nitromors" paint stripper or has that been banned as too dangerous? (EEK)
There again one of those "Wear gloves or die" oven cleaners might do the trick. (Bounce)
There is a commercial preparation for cleaning stainless steel on the market but I don't know if it comes in small amounts. Try one of your local engineering firms.
Cheers
Kris

Duncan112
12th November 2008, 21:46
Always found the proprietry carbon removers from Drew and Rochem to be about as much use as appendages on a bull where it was impossible to get a scraper in as well to remove the deposits - even using the pump off a tanglematic to circulate heaters was not successful. Best method I used was evaporator descaler mixed about 3 times recommended strength - perhaps kettle descaler might work - don't know how well domestic products are inhibited against damaging the metal though.

Philthechill
13th November 2008, 15:37
What is the best method of removing carbon deposits, item in question is a burner tube for an Eberspacher diesel heater made of stainless steel, the heater burns red diesel and builds up a hard carbon deposit - the tube is of welded construction and cannot be dismantled.
I have tried caustic soda and this does not do a particularly good job.
Steve Steve! Have you tried immersing the burner-tube in hot caustic soda? I had a BSA Bantam "When Christ were a lad" and the exhaust-port, on the cylinder, was heavily carboned-up. A biker acquaintance (who was about 150 years old) suggested putting it in a bucket of caustic soda, placing the bucket on a bonfire and "boiling the c**p out of it!" It not only removed all the carbon it took all the paint off the fins too!! Salaams, Phil(Hippy)

surfaceblow
13th November 2008, 16:01
After you get the carbon off of the burner assembly you may want to replace the burner nozzle and check the location of the tip to the diffuser.
I change the burner nozzle yearly on my Number 2 heating oil equipment. I have four oil fired heating units. Three hot air and one boiler. The burner distance to the difuser is also checked after refitting the burner. There is also a quick vacuuming of the exhaust system. I also check the CO2 levels on the exhaust after the maintenance is finished. The new electronic sensors work ready good but are very expensive.

Steve Woodward
14th November 2008, 00:09
Thanks for that guys, never tried boiling the C Soda but do use hot water when sticking the thing in to soak, there is no actually burner in these cursed things instead fuel is pumped by a metering pump onto a heated gauze, the oil vapourises and burns inside the burner tube, the air to heat the boat is passed over the outside of a heat-exchanger which holds the burner tube at it's centre.
One thing I am going to try now Gordon the Gopher ( our Prime Ditherer) has placed road tax on boat (red) diesel is to try burning ordinary white DERV for a winter and see how our heaters perform on that
Thanks Steve

Derek Roger
14th November 2008, 01:23
The cleanest fuel you can use is Gas Oil which is identical to Kerosene . Use the cheapest of the two you can find . Regular diesel and red diesel is a real problem with carbon .

You may also want to try an additive ( Acetone )
Google Acetone as a fuel additive and judge for yourself . It works with Diesel fuels but not as well as with Gasoline ( petrol)

With Gasoline you can get up to 25 % savings ( I have got a steady 10% plus saving when using good quality Gas on my Suzuki Grand Vitara )

It works by reducing the surface tension of the fuel molecules giving a cleaner burn ( complete burn ) Emissions are reduced and it is shown to be safe for all engine parts including seals .

Have a look at the site I mentioned and be your own Judge .

Note use pure Acetone ( Do not use pain thinner s ) The mix I have found effective is 90 ml per 45 litres of Gasoline . For diesels the mix is less .
Over treating will cause an increase in consumption .Go on the site and find out for yourself.

It has been reported that in the States vehicles which could not pass emission controls with regluar gas could go back with acetone treatment and pass .


Derek

Steve Woodward
14th November 2008, 01:55
Cheers Derek,
will look into that, red diesel from what I remember is 38 sec oil
Steve

Derek Roger
14th November 2008, 17:20
Cheers Derek,
will look into that, red diesel from what I remember is 38 sec oil
Steve

Kerosene would be the number one choice for a homeheating system and a Diesel for that matter ( It is the same spec as Gas Oil and almost the same as Jet A1; The jet A1 spec tolerates less water content otherwise the same )

After changing to Kerosene it is wise to change the fuel filter as because it is so clean it tends to remove deposits in the fuel system left by regular or red diesel.

A caution HM Customs would not be happy with people using Kerosene in road vehicles as it is not subject to road taxes and is about half the price ; for homeheating and equipment approved for red diesel it would be OK .

Regards Derek

Derek Roger
14th November 2008, 17:27
A caution . When using Kerosene in a heating system one should have the local technician either change the burner nozzle or adjust the air mixture as kerosene had a slightly lower calorific value than regular or red diesel . In a diesel engine it dosn't matter .
Derek