Mystery Flags

Gulpers
22nd October 2011, 17:53
Help please.
Our local Maritime Museum has five flags in their collection which they are unable to identify.
Anyone got any ideas? (?HUH)

(Numbered 1 to 5, Left to Right)

G0SLP
22nd October 2011, 18:30
#2 is the House Flag of the London Midland & Scottish Railway Company

Mark

Pat Kennedy
22nd October 2011, 18:41
Number three looks like the house flag of the Scottish Shire Line.
Pat

timo
22nd October 2011, 18:58
I seem to recall Stirling Shipping supply boats had flag number 1 for a short time.

Gulpers
22nd October 2011, 19:06
Mark, Pat and timo, thank you very much for your speedy replies.
I'll pass your suggestions on to the Museum Staff. (Applause)

Gulpers
22nd October 2011, 19:10
#2 is the House Flag of the London Midland & Scottish Railway Company

Mark

Just had a Google on this and e-bay has one of these flags going for 100.00. (EEK)

G0SLP
22nd October 2011, 19:13
Just had a Google on this and e-bay has one of these flags going for 100.00. (EEK)

(EEK)(EEK) indeed...

Glad to help, Ray :)

Gulpers
22nd October 2011, 19:16
Number three looks like the house flag of the Scottish Shire Line.
Pat

Don't think it's Scottish Shire Line Pat, have a look here (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=AAA0393).
The infuriating thing is I've seen all these flags before, but I can't remember them!

Gulpers
22nd October 2011, 19:21
I seem to recall Stirling Shipping supply boats had flag number 1 for a short time.

The National Maritime Museum shows this (http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=AAA2016) as Stirling Shipping's House Flag.
Could #1 be an earlier version?

Gulpers
24th October 2011, 13:42
Not having much joy with these folks! (Sad)
I've had a search through everything that Google has turned up over the weekend and #2 remains the only one that has been positively identified.
Although the Museum which is trying to identify these flags is in Wales, I wonder if there is a Scottish connection?

#1 - Stirling Shipping suggested
#2 - LMS - London Midland & Scottish Railway Company - identified
#3 - Unidentified
#4 - Unidentified
#5 - Unidentified but surely a Scottish connection (?HUH)

andysk
31st October 2011, 12:24
#5 is Clan Line, and is the stem jack for the specific Clan who's tartan is surrounding the central lozenge. If you can match up the tartans, you will be able to identify the ship it came from.

Gulpers
31st October 2011, 12:28
Andy,

You are a star! (Applause)
Thank you very much.
Off to research tartan now. (?HUH)

andysk
31st October 2011, 12:56
No probs Ray, happy to help ......

I take it you have been to the usual suspects, the FoTW site (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/)

Hopefully that should help to solve your vexillological vexations ... !!!

(sorry !)

Cheers

Andy

Gulpers
31st October 2011, 13:20
Hi Andy,

Yep, tried FoTW and Googled extensively - as I said before, the annoying thing is that they all look so familiar. (EEK)

Wow, "vexillological vexations" ........ I bet that'll generate a few Google searches too! (Jester)

alan ward
31st October 2011, 16:12
5 is almost certainly a Clan Line lion,I never saw one flown with a tartan surround but maybe before my time maybe a personalised one,I can`t imagine those tight sods issuing seperate jacks for each and every one of their,at one time,large fleet

andysk
31st October 2011, 16:31
Alan, in my time there I did see one or two, but I grant you they were not common. I suspect if there were any on board, they were kept in the OM's safe !

Ray Rowlands
31st October 2011, 17:19
On behalf of the Holyhead Maritime Museum, many thanks for the info so far on the unidentified flags we had in our collection of over 150 flags. Thanks also to Ray Carson of the Holyhead Coastguards for telling me about this Web Site- which I'm really looking forward to using in the future.

Ray Rowlands

Ray Rowlands
31st October 2011, 17:28
Is No 4- the letter D- anything to do with Dredging Ships ? I'm not an expert by any means, but there is a permanent Dredger in the port of Holyhead ?

Is No 1 anything to do with Burmah Oil Co ?

Ray Rowlands
31st October 2011, 17:32
I'm only getting the hang of this site- so apologies I'm not contributing much, but enjoying very much all your various suggestions and help in trying to resolve the 4 flags remaining.

Pat McCardle
31st October 2011, 17:43
No.1 is defo Stirling Shipping Offshore, same as funnel markings.

Coastie
31st October 2011, 17:44
Is No 4- the letter D- anything to do with Dredging Ships ? I'm not an expert by any means, but there is a permanent Dredger in the port of Holyhead ?

Is No 1 anything to do with Burmah Oil Co ?

Is there? I thought the only permanent dredger we had here was the "Pick me up" which went away years ago? I thought that dredgers were brought in on an as needed basis, like the UKD Dolphin was a month or so ago?

Good to see you on here though, Ray. I hope you enjoy all this site has to offer, but beware, it is addictive!!(Bounce)

Gulpers
31st October 2011, 18:03
No.1 is defo Stirling Shipping Offshore, same as funnel markings.

Good man Pat - thanks for the confirmation. (Applause)

Gulpers
31st October 2011, 18:15
5 is almost certainly a Clan Line lion,I never saw one flown with a tartan surround but maybe before my time maybe a personalised one,I can`t imagine those tight sods issuing seperate jacks for each and every one of their,at one time,large fleet

Alan,

There is confirmation of Clan Line's use of tartan Jacks in the last paragraph of this (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb~hfcl.html#clan) entry on the FoTW website. (Thumb)

OLD STRAWBERRY
31st October 2011, 18:19
Is there? I thought the only permanent dredger we had here was the "Pick me up" which went away years ago? I thought that dredgers were brought in on an as needed basis, like the UKD Dolphin was a month or so ago?

Good to see you on here though, Ray. I hope you enjoy all this site has to offer, but beware, it is addictive!!(Bounce)

Surely(4) this Denholm house flag?.

China hand
31st October 2011, 19:29
I'm sure I saw Clan Line ships in Calcutta flying tartan stemjacks, back in the 60's. Folks were a bit more flag etiquete minded back then though. I don't know enough about tartan to give an opinion, but it seems likely.(A)

Union Jack
31st October 2011, 20:17
There is confirmation of Clan Line's use of tartan Jacks

Perhaps in that case they should therefore be known as tartan Jocks ....

I rather like Alan Ward's suggestion that this might have been a "personalised" flag, perhaps on the lines of intership rivalry. I've long given up on the "personalisation" of the White Ensign by all and sundry - especially football club supporters!

Jack (aka Jock)

Gulpers
31st October 2011, 21:09
Surely(4) this Denholm house flag?.

Tony,
Sorry #4 is not the J&J Denholm house flag.
As an ex-Denholm man, this (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb~hfd.html#j&j) is one flag I would know. (==D)
Thanks for joining in though, keep thinking. (Thumb)

Ray Rowlands
31st October 2011, 22:00
Thanks Tony, Gulpers & Jock for your interest in the flags. Can I safely assume now that the Tartan flag is in fact the Clan Line ?

Ray Rowlands
31st October 2011, 22:19
Apologies to Old Strawberry for my wrong info.. Shows my sea/local knowledge not good- I should stick to being the Museum's treasurer being a retired bank manager ! However, I did help with another volunteer to catalogue all 150 of the museum's flags, as well as over 450 books in our Library !
I take it now from previous postings that No1 is an early Sterling Shipping Offshore flag. No2 already identified. No3..Scottish Shire Line, No 5 Clan Line leaving only the flag with letter D on blue/black background !
I'm already very impressed with this site, & would like to start another more personal thread soon regarding the Ellerman & Ellerman Papayanni Lines which my father and grandfather sailed on numerous of their ships.

Gulpers
31st October 2011, 22:21
Thanks Tony, Gulpers & Jock for your interest in the flags. Can I safely assume now that the Tartan flag is in fact the Clan Line ?

Yes Ray, however we still need to identify the tartan to name the ship it belonged to. (*))
Did the flags arrive in the Museum as a batch from the same source?
I still have a notion that there is a Scottish theme to them all. (?HUH)

Ray Rowlands
31st October 2011, 22:30
Apologies to Old Strawberry for my lack of local sea info- I should stick to being the Museum's treasurer. However I did catalogue all 150+ flags we have as well as over 450 books in our library !
From previous postings I assume therefore that flag 1 is Early Sterling Shipping Offshore flag. No 2 already identified. No 3-Scottish Shire Line.,No5 Clan Line leaving just No 4 -the one with a letter D on black/blue background.
I am really impressed with this web-site and the knowledge of those contributing. I look forward to starting another thread on the Ellerman Line & Ellerman/Papayanni Line on whhose ships my father sailed during WW2 and my grandfather before him- who was a captain. I'm hoping there may be someone out there who might have sailed with dad- even though now they would probably be in their late 80's !!

Ray Rowlands
31st October 2011, 22:33
Gulpers- I will make enquiries tomorrow of some of our older volunteers to see if there is any Scottish connection & whether these flags were in fact donated by the same person.

Gulpers
31st October 2011, 22:33
As it stands:-

#1 - Stirling Shipping
#2 - London Midland and Scottish Railway Company
#3 - Unidentified
#4 - Unidentified
#5 - Clan Line Jack - tartan still to be identified, thus giving the name of the ship which flew it. (Applause)

Gulpers
31st October 2011, 22:40
Gulpers- I will make enquiries tomorrow of some of our older volunteers to see if there is any Scottish connection & whether these flags were in fact donated by the same person.
Ray,
Excellent. The more information we can glean, the easier the identification will be.
Well done to everyone who has contributed, we are getting some brilliant feedback. (==D)

andysk
31st October 2011, 23:56
Thanks Tony, Gulpers & Jock for your interest in the flags. Can I safely assume now that the Tartan flag is in fact the Clan Line ?

Absolutely Ray ....

(from an old Clan Line hand !!!)

Ooops ! Sorry Ray (Gulpers, that is), I should have read yours before posting !

alan ward
2nd November 2011, 10:06
I didn`t know that!I was with them from `70-`73 and was not aware of the tartan stem jacks.Mind you they were such a social company that I wasn`t aware of much of anything.They were sticklers for formality though

Pat Kennedy
2nd November 2011, 12:04
I still think that No 3 could be a variation of the Scottish Shire Line houseflag.
Compare these, and also the one pictured at Benjidogs history of the Comany here;
http://www.benjidog.co.uk/allen/index_files/Page6534.htm

Regards,
Pat

Gulpers
2nd November 2011, 17:18
Yes Pat, I see what you mean.
Certainly a possibility and worthy of consideration if nothing else comes forward in the meantime.
Thank you for your help. (Applause)