Krusenstern or Kruzenshtern?

Shipbuilder
9th November 2011, 10:57
Am trying to find the correct spelling for the name of this well-known sail training ship. Google is no help at all as both spellings are quite common.
Bob

sparkie2182
9th November 2011, 11:01
I understand the latter to be a direct transliteration.

trotterdotpom
9th November 2011, 11:27
How about Крузенштерн ?

John T

Shipbuilder
9th November 2011, 11:54
Thanks for replies,

I now have three spellings(==D)
The first one sounds too English and if I used Крузенштерн, it may confuse my readers, so I will go for
Kruzenshtern
I am tidying up the loose ends on a book that I have finally completed and the Kruzenshtern is only mentioned in a minor way as the present name of the nitrate ship Padua.

All being well, it will be ready for the printers next week. Insufficient patience to try and find a real publisher, as the last one took years, first to get it accepted and then a further two years to publication!

I am going down the "despised" path of Vanity Publishing(LOL)

Thanks for the help.

Bob

walkonthewildside
10th November 2011, 20:26
It is actually the Russian Spelling that is on the Bow of her. Beautiful Ship. But as for the spelling you used I think that would also be correct. Good luck with your book by the way. Hope it goes well for you.

Andrey Nelogov
10th November 2011, 20:37
Good evening,

Adam Johann von Krusenstern; 8.11.1770 — 12.08.1846 Russian Admiral of German origin

Sincerely Yours,
Andrey

werner_ju
13th November 2011, 00:09
Bob:

The Kruzenshtern is named for Johann Adam Ritter von Krusenstern, a Baltic German born 1770 in Estonia. Estonia was part of the Russian empire, von Krusenstern served in the Russian navy.

The transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin characters varies according to the language it is done. The spelling Kruzenshtern is the transliteration in use on board the vessel. From my point of view this is the official spelling of the ship’s name in Latin characters which also is commonly used in Germany. You are doing it right using Kruzenshtern in your publication.

BTW, the Kruzenshtern is no sistership to any other sailing vessel past or present.

Regards,
Werner

Shipbuilder
13th November 2011, 06:54
Thanks Werner,
I had often wondered where the name originated. I know there is no sister ship to the vessel, but mentioned her merely because she was originally the Padua of the Flying P Line that I covered briefly when talking about Preussen and Pampa.
Bob

werner_ju
13th November 2011, 23:05
Bob,

These are great little ships – excellent work !!

If I ever get the time I’ll build the Passat, Preussen and Kruzenshtern from paper kits in 1:250. These kits are already on my shelf for years.

With the naming of the 4m-barque Kruzenshtern, von Krusenstern is honoured for leading the first Russian circumnavigation, exploring Alaskan waters (than a Russian colony), the Aleuts, Kurils, east coast of Kamchatka and other island as well as shipping routes to Japan. After his return to St. Petersburg he was appointed Admiral and head of the Sea Cadet Corps as well as honorable member of the Academie of Science in St. Petersburg. In 1841 he was appointed Generaladmiral. Bearing his name is quite an honour for the ship.

Best regards,
Werner

Barrie Youde
6th August 2016, 17:37
This is a long shot. I wonder if there might be any photograph available of Padua in her original configuration on deck as a freighter?

I was fortunate to visit her today as Kruzenshtern at Raahe in Finland, and her original layout on deck is now far from obvious. All hatchways have disappeared completely. Originally a three-island vessel, her after well-deck is now enclosed and a thoroughly modern bridge and wheel-house sits on what was the mid-ships island, overlooking a fore-deck and the for'd well-deck. The fo'csle appears to be largely unchanged.

Query? Was she originally steered/navigated from amidships (as some of the last windjammers were) or was she originally navigated/steered from the poop in the traditional way? If from amidships, was she originally built with a bridge - or even a wheelhouse - of any kind?

She is well worth a visit.

All information appreciated.

James_C
6th August 2016, 18:46
Barrie,
Best I can do of her in original form. I would expect she was steered from amidships via cables with only the emergency steering aft.

Stephen J. Card
6th August 2016, 20:09
Bob:

The Kruzenshtern is named for Johann Adam Ritter von Krusenstern, a Baltic German born 1770 in Estonia. Estonia was part of the Russian empire, von Krusenstern served in the Russian navy.

You are doing it right using Kruzenshtern in your publication.


Regards,
Werner


Werner, yes, this is the way it is used for the ship... with the 'h'.

Barrie Youde
7th August 2016, 09:35
#11

Very many thanks, Jim.

Your third photograph is particularly helpful and appears to show a primitive form of bridge on the mid-ships island. Dare I suggest also some kind of D/F aerial? All of which, as you suggest, indicates steering and navigation from amidships. There still are two large wheels in place amidships, as well as the two customary wheels aft, on the poop.

Repeated thanks,

Barrie

stein
7th August 2016, 14:09
The German illustrator Gunther T. Schulz was onboard the Padua on a voyage to Chile in 1939, and from this experience produced a book of line drawings after the war. I have copied a pair of drawings that incorporates some of the steering gear. Some more of the illustrations, although in low resolution, can be seen in this advert for a reprint of the book: http://www.marine-niemeyer.com/books/28944_d.php

Barrie Youde
8th August 2016, 12:28
Many thanks, Stein.

It is of interest to see the extent to which the very latest of sail-propulsion was combined with the technology of the steam age without the actual installation of mechanical propulsion of any kind.

It does seem clear that she was steered/navigated from amidships, with emergency steering aft in the then-usual way.

As to accommodation, it seems likely that the master and mates would have lived amidships; and the crew aft. Is that right? The fo'csle seems far too small to have accommodated living space for more than a very few men. It is more like an ordinary fore-peak locker.

stein
8th August 2016, 14:00
Many thanks, Stein.

It is of interest to see the extent to which the very latest of sail-propulsion was combined with the technology of the steam age without the actual installation of mechanical propulsion of any kind.

It does seem clear that she was steered/navigated from amidships, with emergency steering aft in the then-usual way.

As to accommodation, it seems likely that the master and mates would have lived amidships; and the crew aft. Is that right? The fo'csle seems far too small to have accommodated living space for more than a very few men. It is more like an ordinary fore-peak locker.

In the Preussen at least, as seen here, there were no one accommodated in the forecastle - or aft. I would expect the Padua to have been much like the Preussen in this respect.

Barrie Youde
9th August 2016, 20:59
Many thanks, Stein.

I see that in Preussen the Kapitan had his WC ensuite , whereas all others were obliged to go al fresco!

SandieA
17th August 2016, 22:57
This might help
http://bgarf.ru/en/news/detail.php?CODE=padua-kruzenshtern-during-the-second-world-war