Gyro Error

Andrew Craig-Bennett
13th December 2011, 16:18
I have just been told by my boss to find him a regulation which requires the gyro error to be determined at least once a watch, weather permitting.

Every shipowner I can think of has had a company standing order to this effect but nobody seems to be able to find a regulation that requires it.

Help, please...

jimthehat
13th December 2011, 16:36
I have just been told by my boss to find him a regulation which requires the gyro error to be determined at least once a watch, weather permitting.

Every shipowner I can think of has had a company standing order to this effect but nobody seems to be able to find a regulation that requires it.

Help, please...

Whether it was gyro or magnetic compass error as you say it was a company standing order and if not then certainly it was in the old mans bridge order book,

Andrew Craig-Bennett
13th December 2011, 17:53
Thanks for confirming that I'm not going mad.

It seems to be one of those things that is so "basic" that nobody has ever seen the need to make it a regulation.

And now I have a bunch of so called marine superintendents who can't see the need for it and a boss who sees no need for anything unless there's a regulation for it.

I can say "the radar, the chart plotter and the autopilot all take their heading information from the gyro so it will be a pity if it wanders off" till I am blue in the face and I just get told the GPS sensing loop corrects it so why worry.

This is in a VERY big Asian shipping company...

callpor
13th December 2011, 18:07
Andrew, Why not make a quick call to the MCA and ask the Senior Examiner for Master's & Mates? Surely he will know!

John Rogers
13th December 2011, 18:54
Maybe, just maybe, its in the technical instructions of the Gyro.


John

John Cassels
13th December 2011, 19:12
No regulation as far as I know , just pure common sense !.

borderreiver
13th December 2011, 19:26
M notices You will have to back some way possible bridge watch keeping. also check stews.

Cutsplice
13th December 2011, 20:23
Some old men that I sailed with had it as a standing order, "Compass errors to be checked as soon as possible after altering course and a least once per watch if conditions allow". I have never seen any regulation where it stated that compass errors had to be established at any particular time interval.
I was told that the "Torrey Canyon" had a very large compass error and the last time the error was established was many months prior to her rondevous with the Seven Stones, anyone confirm the story about the compass error ?.

Nick Balls
13th December 2011, 20:40
The Bridge Procedures guide gives this as best practice.
Then go to Solas V (While this is referring to magnetic compass it follows that as a gyro is theses days the primary means of ascertaining heading) Quote:
Compass performance should be monitored by frequently recording deviations in the compass deviation book. Compass errors should be determined after every large alteration of course, and at least once every watch when there have been no major course alterations. Checking the compass deviation regularly may show the need for repair, testing or adjustment. In addition, compasses should be inspected occasionally by a competent officer or compass adjuster.

In practice a good gyro error cross checked against the magnetic is still a very important part of good watchkeeping.

Strachan
13th December 2011, 20:44
Wouldn''t it come under "the ordinary practices of seamen" ?

Jardine
13th December 2011, 20:58
I would say John Cassels and Strachan have it just about right.

Satanic Mechanic
13th December 2011, 20:59
Ok couple for you

Firstly it is mentioned in IMO resolution A918 (A) B1/1.2.2
It is also part of the STCW code - Part 3-1 21.5.2


Howzat(Pint)

Binnacle
13th December 2011, 21:53
In my days at sea it was the normal practice of mariners to regularly check for compass errors. Any instruction from shore seated company wallahs would have been considered insulting. Fortunately I never sighted such a document.

lakercapt
14th December 2011, 04:54
On a passage across the North Atlantic in the winter time with overcast nearly all he time it was not possible to obtain a gyro/compass error.
I was looking at the last 24 hrs entries in the log book before signing on the line when I notice that the compass errors ( when compared to the gyro ) was erratic and fluctuating wildly.
Went and checked the gyro and found that the mounting had come loose due to our vibrations.
The auto pilot followed the gyro and that was what was at fault so I think that comparing the compass and gyro should be emphasized not just getting a gyro error

slick
14th December 2011, 07:37
All,
The provision of Compasses in Cargo Ships used to be governed by Rule 34 of the MS (Cargo Ship Construction and Survey) Rules,1965, these Rules plus others (M. Notices 411 and 417)appear to place a Duty on the Master to maintain a Deviation Book and regularly inspect same, and to take remedial action as required.
The 'ordinary practice of seamen' as quoted elsewhere here would cover it, as a matter of pride and routine dictated that you were able to hand over the watch and be able to tell your relief you had obtained errors.
I appreciate these are old sources, but they must have been subsumed into newer rules.

Yours aye,

slick

Jardine
14th December 2011, 09:33
I like to think we are talking 'seamanship' which is a little like 'common sense' and not so easily taught. The problem with the younger element at sea is that they can tick all the boxes and know where to find conventions and legislation but 'take a sight' or talk 'mean of means'.

Mike S
14th December 2011, 09:47
I suggest that the relevant rules noted here and the phrase "Normal practice of seamen" should be enough to tell that particular interfering shore whallah that he is out of his depth........(*))

Satanic Mechanic
14th December 2011, 12:59
oh dear lord - it was a simple enough question.

Is it a legal requirement?

not

Tell how good you all were?

borderreiver
14th December 2011, 13:49
It is a international legal requirement.
See the under quote
and also SOLAS
Which the bible for the sea lawyers

Ok couple for you

Firstly it is mentioned in IMO resolution A918 (A) B1/1.2.2
It is also part of the STCW code - Part 3-1 21.5.2


Howzat(Pint)

gdynia
14th December 2011, 15:48
Andrew look here

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga-mnotice.htm?textobjid=B94E7C9E5EB6C418

jimthehat
14th December 2011, 16:28
I like to think we are talking 'seamanship' which is a little like 'common sense' and not so easily taught. The problem with the younger element at sea is that they can tick all the boxes and know where to find conventions and legislation but 'take a sight' or talk 'mean of means'.

I think that I mentioned it on another thread,but when I was cruising on the Arcadia recently and having a chat with the ships navigator i was amazed when he looked completely baffled when I mentioned the devescope and what we had to do when up for masters orals.I wonder what mates now have to study instead of magnetism.

jim

John Rogers
14th December 2011, 16:44
Jim,They only use Magnetism when they mix with the lady passengers.


John.

John Cassels
14th December 2011, 21:03
oh dear lord - it was a simple enough question.

Is it a legal requirement?

not

Tell how good you all were?

SM ; You've really lost me ; Is it a legal requirement ? , not .
what are you trying to say ?.

Cisco
14th December 2011, 21:39
...... he looked completely baffled when I mentioned the devescope and what we had to do when up for masters orals.I wonder what mates now have to study instead of magnetism.

jim

OK so I am just a young pup but when I sat Masters in London in 1972 they had just brought in a new syllabus and instead of the deviascope you worked with a binnacle on wheels in the orals room... taking bearings on chimney pots across the street....

Dunno what they do now.......

bobs
15th December 2011, 00:10
Tired/Virgins/Make/Dull/Company, I was taught, standing for True/Variation/Magnetic/Deviation/Course but I think that was the formula for checking a magnetic compass. I was more a spanner-****** than a navigator so I shouldn't be expected to know such things.

Jardine
15th December 2011, 07:31
Tired/Virgins/Make/Dull/Company, I was taught, standing for True/Variation/Magnetic/Deviation/Course but I think that was the formula for checking a magnetic compass. I was more a spanner-****** than a navigator so I shouldn't be expected to know such things.

Or perhaps 'a tool' would be a better description.

Satanic Mechanic
15th December 2011, 11:44
SM ; You've really lost me ; Is it a legal requirement ? , not .
what are you trying to say ?.

Andrew asked the question

"Does anyone know if it is a legal requirement to check Gyro error"

Somewhere along the line that appears to have been translated into

"Demean the modern watchkeeper and tell me how good you were in the past"

To my mind there is nothing wrong with writing best practice into law - it makes it easier to get rid of those who are incompetent

jimthehat
15th December 2011, 12:41
Andrew asked the question

"Does anyone know if it is a legal requirement to check Gyro error"

Somewhere along the line that appears to have been translated into

"Demean the modern watchkeeper and tell me how good you were in the past"

To my mind there is nothing wrong with writing best practice into law - it makes it easier to get rid of those who are incompetent

Is that an engineer talking?/

Anchorman
15th December 2011, 13:32
Andrew I know your question was answered but you may find these comments by UK p&I interesting.
Neil
http://www.ukpandi.com/fileadmin/uploads/uk-pi/LP%20Documents/Tech_Bulletins/TchB31.pdf

Andrew Craig-Bennett
15th December 2011, 13:33
Andrew, Why not make a quick call to the MCA and ask the Senior Examiner for Master's & Mates? Surely he will know!

Actually I did just that. I know Roger Towner quite well but I don't think I should quote his reply here without his permission.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
15th December 2011, 13:34
Andrew I know your question was answered but you may find these comments by UK p&I interesting.
Neil
http://www.ukpandi.com/fileadmin/uploads/uk-pi/LP%20Documents/Tech_Bulletins/TchB31.pdf

Thanks, we are in the UK P&I Club and I did discuss this Technical Bulletin with David Wright.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
15th December 2011, 13:37
Andrew asked the question

"Does anyone know if it is a legal requirement to check Gyro error"

Somewhere along the line that appears to have been translated into

"Demean the modern watchkeeper and tell me how good you were in the past"

To my mind there is nothing wrong with writing best practice into law - it makes it easier to get rid of those who are incompetent

To my mind there is nothing wrong with writing best practice into law - it makes it easier to get rid of those who are incompetent

Spot on!

When dealing with certain nationalities this seems to be the ONLY way to get ANYTHING done at all.

I have a marine super whose response to any proposal may be guaranteed to begin "I disagree with this proposal because this has never been done before..." - it was his insistence that taking a compass error is quite unnecessary that triggered the head to head with the CEO who then ruled about needing a regulation!

Klaatu83
15th December 2011, 13:54
"True Virgins Make Dull Companions" was the version we were taught.

I can't ever recall ever seeing any official written regulation, either from the IMO or the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations, requiring the checking of compass error. I suppose that it was such a common practice that it simply never occurred to any official regulatory agency to codify it in writing. Certainly the standing orders of every ship's captain with whom I ever sailed required the Mates to take at least one Azimuth or Amplitude per watch, weather permitting. It was part of every Licensed Deck Officer's required "Day's Work", even long after the daily use of sextants passed away. The Chart Room on every ship always included a Compass Record Book in which the results of all those azimuths and amplitudes were always entered.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
15th December 2011, 14:08
Ok couple for you

Firstly it is mentioned in IMO resolution A918 (A) B1/1.2.2
It is also part of the STCW code - Part 3-1 21.5.2


Howzat(Pint)

You are very welcome to the pint any time, SM, but ... with the utmost respect,..

A918 (A) B1.2.2 appears to concern itself with standard briefing for crew and passengers and the STCW reference should I think be to Part A Chapter II Table A-II/2 Column 2, which is less use than you might think, as all it says is:

"Ability to determine and allow for errors of the magnetic and gyro compasses"

"Knowledge of the principles of magnetic and gyro compasses"

Column 4 is a bit better as under "Criteria for evaluating competence" we find: "The method and frequency of checks for errors of magnetic and gyro compasses ensures accuracy of information."

Oops. (Whaaa)

Nick Balls, here, and Richard Squires of IDESS, by email, both came up with a very helpful reference to the ICS Bridge Procedures Guide, 4.6.3, which reads:

"Compass Errors - As a safeguard against the gyro and gyro repeaters wandering, frequent should be made between the magnetic and gyro compasses. Magnetic and gyro compass errors should be checked and recorded each watch, where possible, using either azimuth or transit bearings."

As Richard says, that's still just a recommendation but the publication is mandatory aboard tankers, which gives it some sort of force.

Richard also pointed out IMO Resolution 382 (X) which requires the compass to be "properly corrected".

Andrew Craig-Bennett
15th December 2011, 14:13
CONCLUSION:

It is the ordinary good practice of seamen and it is so basic and obvious that no-one seems ever to have bothered to make a regulation about it.

ACB's corrollary - and you would be quite surprised at the size and speed of some ships whose gyro error is checked once every few months, if that. (?HUH)

As to the magnetic compass - "It's on the monkey island, innit? You mean the hood comes off?"

Satanic Mechanic
15th December 2011, 14:30
You are very welcome to the pint any time, SM, but ... with the utmost respect,..

A918 (A) B1.2.2 appears to concern itself with standard briefing for crew and passengers and the STCW reference should I think be to Part A Chapter II Table A-II/2 Column 2, which is less use than you might think, as all it says is:

"Ability to determine and allow for errors of the magnetic and gyro compasses"

"Knowledge of the principles of magnetic and gyro compasses"

Column 4 is a bit better as under "Criteria for evaluating competence" we find: "The method and frequency of checks for errors of magnetic and gyro compasses ensures accuracy of information."

Oops. (Whaaa)

Nick Balls, here, and Richard Squires of IDESS, by email, both came up with a very helpful reference to the ICS Bridge Procedures Guide, 4.6.3, which reads:

"Compass Errors - As a safeguard against the gyro and gyro repeaters wandering, frequent should be made between the magnetic and gyro compasses. Magnetic and gyro compass errors should be checked and recorded each watch, where possible, using either azimuth or transit bearings."

As Richard says, that's still just a recommendation but the publication is mandatory aboard tankers, which gives it some sort of force.

I would have said that A918 states that it be part of the handover therefore it would have to be checked during the watch.

I only mention STCW because it states that the watchkeeper should be able to do it - i.e if he cant then he aint good enough

I'll still take the pint though(Gleam)

Jardine
15th December 2011, 16:07
To my mind there is nothing wrong with writing best practice into law - it makes it easier to get rid of those who are incompetent

Spot on!

When dealing with certain nationalities this seems to be the ONLY way to get ANYTHING done at all.

I have a marine super whose response to any proposal may be guaranteed to begin "I disagree with this proposal because this has never been done before..." - it was his insistence that taking a compass error is quite unnecessary that triggered the head to head with the CEO who then ruled about needing a regulation!

I see you are no stranger to dropping names but more interesting

"When dealing with certain nationalities this seems to be the ONLY way to get ANYTHING done at all. "

What a ridiculous comment coming from someone in ship management

Andrew Craig-Bennett
15th December 2011, 16:23
Not quite sure what I have done to upset you (apart perhaps from having worked for the More Sucessful Hong's fleet, if you are as your handle suggests a Ewo retiree? In which case you are not the only one to reply to this thread, but the other one has better manners.)

I asked a perfectly sensible question and got, apart from yours, a string of very sensible answers.

I believe in giving credit where it is due, which is why I give people their names - but then you don't appear to have one yourself?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
15th December 2011, 16:29
All,
The provision of Compasses in Cargo Ships used to be governed by Rule 34 of the MS (Cargo Ship Construction and Survey) Rules,1965, these Rules plus others (M. Notices 411 and 417)appear to place a Duty on the Master to maintain a Deviation Book and regularly inspect same, and to take remedial action as required.
The 'ordinary practice of seamen' as quoted elsewhere here would cover it, as a matter of pride and routine dictated that you were able to hand over the watch and be able to tell your relief you had obtained errors.
I appreciate these are old sources, but they must have been subsumed into newer rules.

Yours aye,

slick

Thanks. I chased these down - which is easy enough with the consolidated notices book - but alas ,as they were sucessively replaced, they got watered down to, effectively, nothing by the time we get to MGN 92

Satanic Mechanic
15th December 2011, 16:38
Andrew

Was just reading your reply again and I am not sure if we were reading the same thing - just to be on the safe side here is the text I was referring to.

(I included the full text just so everyone can see it and no doubt pass comment (LOL))


B1/1 Handing over the watch


B1/1.1 Briefing on position, movement and draft
.

The officer of the watch should brief the relieving officer on the following:

.1. Position

.1. The present position is

latitude ..., longitude ... .
bearing ... degrees, distance ... cables / nautical miles from/to.....
buoy ...(charted name).
between ... and... .
way point / reporting point ... .
... .
.2. The next waypoint / reporting point is ... .

.3. ETA at ... is ... UTC.

.4. We are passing / we passed buoy ...(charted name) on port side / starboard side.

.5. We are approaching buoy ...(charted name) on port side / starboard side.

.6. Buoy ...(charted name) ... is cables / nautical miles ahead.

.7. We are entering / we entered area ... .

.8. We are leaving / we left area ... .


.2. Movements

.1. True course / gyro compass course / magnetic compass course is ... degrees.

.2. Gyro compass error is ... degrees plus / minus.

.2.1. Magnetic compass error is ... degrees east / west.

.3. Speed over ground / through water is ... knots.

.4. Set and dr ift is ... degrees, ... knots.

.5. We are making ... degrees leeway.

.6. The course board is written up.

.7. The next chart is within .... hours.



.3. Draft

.1. Draft forward / aft is ... metres.

.2. Present maximum draft is ... metres.

.3. Underkeel clearance is ... metres.



B1/1.2 Briefing on traffic situation in the area
.1. A vessel is

overtaking … (cardinal points) of us.
on opposite course.
passing on port side / starboard side.
.2. A vessel is crossing from port side.

.2.1. The vessel

will give way.
has given way.
has not given way yet.
is standing on.
need not give way.
.3. A vessel is crossing from starboard side.

.3.1. We

need not give way.
will stand on.
will alter course to give way.
have altered course to give way.
.3.2. The vessel will pass ... kilometres / nautical miles ahead / astern.

.3.3. I will complete the manoeuvre.

.4. A vessel ... (cardinal points) of us is on the same course.

.5. The bearing to the vessel in ... degrees is constant.

.6. There is heavy traffic / ... in the area.

.6.1. There are fishing boats / ... in the area.

.7. There are no dangerous targets on the radar .

.7.1. Attention. There are dangerous targets on the radar .

.8. Call the Master if any vessel passes with a CPA of less than .... miles.

.8.1. Call the Master if ... .

B1/1.3 Briefing on navigational aids and equipment status
.1. Port side / starboard side radar is at ... miles range scale.

.2. The radar is

relative head-up / north-up / course-up.
true-motion north-up / course-up.
.3. GPS / LORAN is / is not in operation.

.4. Echo sounder is at ... metres range scale.

.4.1. The echo sounder recordings are unreliable.

.5. I changed to manual / automatic steering (at ... UTC).

.6. Navigation lights are switched on / off.

B1/1.4 Briefing on radiocommunications
.1. INMARSAT ...(type of system) is operational / is not operational.

.2. VHF DSC Channel 70 / VHF Channel ... / DSC controller is switched on.

.2.1. DSC frequency 2187.5 kHz is switched on.

.3. NAVTEX is switched on.

.4. Following was received on ... at ... UTC

.5. Shore based radar assistance / VTS / Pilot station is on VHF Channel ... .

.6. The Pilot station / VTS station requires

flag State.
call sign / identification.
draft.
gross tonnage.
length overall.
kind of cargo.
ETA at .... .
MAREP POSREP / ... .
... .
B1/1.5 Briefing on meteorological conditions
.1. A weak / strong (tidal) current is setting .... degrees.

.1.1. The direction of the (tidal) current will change in ... hours.

.2. Fog / mist / dust / rain / snow / ... is in the area.

.3. Automatic fog signal is switched on.

.4. The wind increased / decreased (within last ... hours).

.4.1. The wind is ... (cardinal points) force Beaufort ... .

.4.2. The wind changed from .... (cardinal points) to .... (cardinal points).

.5. The sea state is expected to change (within .... hours).

.6. A smooth/moderate/rough/heavy sea / slight/moderate/high swell of ... metres from ...(cardinal points) is expected (within .... hours).

.7. A tsunami / an abnormal wave is expected by ... UTC.

.8. Visibility is ... nautical miles.

.9. Visibility is reduced by fog / mist / dust / rain / snow / ... .

.10. Visibility is expected

to decrease / increase to ... nautical miles (within ... hours).
variable between ... and ... nautical miles (within .... hours).
.11. Next weather report is at ... UTC.

.12. Atmospheric pressure is ... millibars / hectopascal.

.13. Barometric change is ... millibars /hectopascal per hour / within the last ... hours.

.13.1. Barometer is steady / dropping (rapidly) / rising (rapidly).

.14. There was a gale warning / tropical storm warning for the area ... at ... UTC.

B1/1.6 Briefing on standing orders and bridge organization
.1. Standing orders for the period from ... to ... UTC ... are: ... .

.2. Standing orders for the area ... are: ... .

.3. Take notice of changes in the standing orders.

.4. Do you understand the standing orders?

.4.1. Yes, I understand the standing orders.

.4.2. No, I do not understand, please explain.

.5. Read / sign the standing orders.

.6. The latest fire patrol was at ... UTC.

.7. The latest security patrol was at ... UTC.

.7.1. Everything is in order.

.7.2. The following was stated: ... .

.7.3. The following measures were taken: ... .

.7.4. The following requires attention: ... .

.8. The lookout is standing by.

.9. The helmsman is standing by.

.10. Call the Master at ... UTC / in position ... .

B1/1.7 Briefing on special events
. See also A1/3 “Safety communications”.

.1. There was an engine alarm at ... UTC due to ......

.2. Speed was reduced at ... UTC due to ......

.3. Engine(s) was / were stopped at ... UTC due to ......

.4. Course was altered at ... UTC due to ....

.5. The Master / Chief Engineer was called at ... UTC due to ... .

B1/1.8 Briefing on temperatures, pressures and soundings
.1. The ...(equipment) temperature minimum/maximum is

... degrees (centigrade) / to maintain.
... above / below normal.
critical.
.1.1. Do not exceed a minimum/maximum temperature of … degrees.

.2. The ...(equipment) pressure minimum/maximum is

... kiloponds / bars / to maintain.
above / below normal.
critical.
.2.1. Do not exceed a pressure of … kiloponds / bars.

.3. Ballast / fresh water/ fuel / oil / slop sounding is ... metres / cubic metres.

.3.1. Sounding of

no ... cargo tank is ... metres / cubic metres.
no ... cargo hold is ... centimetres.
... .
B1/1.9 Briefing on operation of main engine and auxiliary equipment
. See also B1/1.8.

.1. (present) revolutions of the main engine(s) are ... per minute.

.2. (present) output of the main engine(s) / auxiliary engine(s) are ... kilowatts.

.3. (present) pitch of the propeller(s) is ... degrees.

.4. There are no problems.

.5. There are problems with ... .

with the main engine(s) / auxiliary engine(s).
with ... .
.6. Call the watch engineer (if the problems continue).

.6.1. Call the watch engineer ... minutes before the arrival at ... / at ... UTC.

B1/1.10 Briefing on pumping of fuel, ballast water, etc.
.1. There is no pumping at present.

.2. We are filling / we filled (no.) ... double bottom tank(s) / the ballast tanks / the ... tank(s).

.2.1. Fill up … tonnes / sounding …/ ullage …/ level … to the alarm point.

.3. We are discharging / we discharged (no.) ... double bottom tank(s) / the ballast tanks / the ... tank(s).

.4. We are transferring / we transferred fuel / ballast / fresh water / oil from (no.) ... tank(s) to (no.) ... tank(s).

.5. We require a further generator to operate an additional pump.

B1/1.11 Briefing on special machinery events and repairs
.1. There was a breakdown of the main engine(s) (at ... UTC / from ... to ... UTC).

.1.1. There was a breakdown of ... (at ... UTC / from ... to ... UTC).

.2. There was a total blackout (at ... UTC / from ... to ... UTC).

.2.1. There was a blackout in ...(at ... UTC / from ... to ... UTC).

.3. Main engine(s) was / were stopped (at ... UTC / from ... to ... UTC) due to ... ..

.4. Speed was reduced (at ... UTC / from ... to ... UTC) due to ... .

.5. Call the Master / Chief Engineer if the revolutions of the main engine(s) are below ... per minute.

.5.1. Call the Master / Chief Engineer / Watch Engineer if ... .

B1/1.12 Briefing on record keeping
.1. The log books / record books are completed and signed.

.1.1. The note book entries will be copied (into the log books / record books) after the watch.

.2. Change the paper of the data logger / echo sounder / ... recorder.

.2.1. Refill the toner / ink of the data logger / echo sounder / ... recorder

B1/1.13 Handing and taking over the watch/conn
. The Master / Chief Engineer or an (engineer) officer handing over the watch should say:

.1. You have the watch now.

.1.1. The relieving officer should confirm and say:

I have the watch now.

. The Master / Chief Engineer when called to the bridge / engine (control) room and formally taking over the watch, should confirm and say:

.2. I have the watch now.

.2.1. The officer of the watch should confirm and say:

You have the watch now.

John Cassels
15th December 2011, 19:28
Good Lord SM , wherever did you get that lot from ?.

Satanic Mechanic
15th December 2011, 19:31
Good Lord SM , wherever did you get that lot from ?.

I know a guy at IMO(*))

John Cassels
15th December 2011, 19:31
Andrew , with all due respect , if you have a marine super in your company who
thinks that taking a compass error is unecessary the I don't have to tell
you where he should be dumped.

John Cassels
15th December 2011, 19:32
I know a guy at IMO(*))

Has he ever been to sea ?.

Satanic Mechanic
15th December 2011, 19:48
Has he ever been to sea ?.

To be fair John there is a lot to be said for formalisation of handovers, especially in todays world of black box recorders so in the the case of an incident you can say you did a handover as per IMO resolution, so long as you give the correct information it is a great protection for you - of course if you get it wrong it is the exact opposite.

Satanic Mechanic
15th December 2011, 19:56
Andrew , with all due respect , if you have a marine super in your company who
thinks that taking a compass error is unecessary the I don't have to tell
you where he should be dumped.

I think that night be the point though John - if there is no regulation then in fact he is perfectly correct in saying it is not required, and vice versa of course.

That is where regulation comes in - if there isn't a legal requirement it makes it very difficult to do someone for not doing something - just because it was regarded as best practice does mean it is compulsory and as many practices on board change due to technology there are often old practices left behind - sometimes for the better sometimes for worse.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
16th December 2011, 01:15
Andrew , with all due respect , if you have a marine super in your company who
thinks that taking a compass error is unecessary the I don't have to tell
you where he should be dumped.

John, I could not agree more.

Alas (and this seems to be the rather scary point) I seem to work for a company that is full of such people. He and his colleagues (catchword "I am against this because it has never been done before") (!) seem to think it would be much safer if they just dumped me!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
16th December 2011, 01:17
SM - thanks very much - you are quite right in thinking that I had misread the reference that you so kindly gave me.

VERY useful stuff in the context in which I work.

Thanks a lot!

joebuckham
16th December 2011, 02:37
To be fair John there is a lot to be said for formalisation of handovers, especially in todays world of black box recorders so in the the case of an incident you can say you did a handover as per IMO resolution, so long as you give the correct information it is a great protection for you - of course if you get it wrong it is the exact opposite.

i thought watches were only four hours in length

John Cassels
16th December 2011, 08:47
I think that night be the point though John - if there is no regulation then in fact he is perfectly correct in saying it is not required, and vice versa of course.

That is where regulation comes in - if there isn't a legal requirement it makes it very difficult to do someone for not doing something - just because it was regarded as best practice does mean it is compulsory and as many practices on board change due to technology there are often old practices left behind - sometimes for the better sometimes for worse.

The point I was making concerned the use of HIS word "unecessary ",
and not the word "required "that you use.
Anyone of his capacity who thinks the checking of compass/gyro
errors is unecessary should not be in the position he is in.

Satanic Mechanic
16th December 2011, 09:08
The point I was making concerned the use of HIS word "unecessary ",
and not the word "required "that you use.
Anyone of his capacity who thinks the checking of compass/gyro
errors is unecessary should not be in the position he is in.

Oh I fully agree John but if there is no rule saying it has to be done then technically he is alas correct this is where I suspect a lot of Andrews problem lies - he may well be wrong but try proving it without a regulation

Andrew Craig-Bennett
16th December 2011, 10:27
Thanks to everyone.

I think there might be room for a discussion on a general thread about the way in which "reach for the rule book" has gradually come to replace "follow the best practice of seamen" during - well, frankly, during the lifetimes of most people who post here.

"The best practice of seamen" is as everyone here knows (but others may not) a phrase much used by the Admiralty Court of the High Court in England where the Judge sits with Elder Brethren of Trinity House as assessors to advise him as to what the best practice of seamen is. We got along like that for hundreds of years; now people want a regulation before something gets done.

Julian Calvin
16th December 2011, 14:09
Have been surprised in the past year at the number of vessels I have inspected (mainly AHTs, OSVs & DSVs) where I received a blank look when I asked about means of taking visual bearings.
Many new vessels nowadays have no wing repeaters so, possibly,only way to take bearings visually would be with the magnetic compass. Many of these though had no azimuth mirror or pelorus.
Know what is written in the rules but have these been allowed to 'bend' a little?

Nick Balls
16th December 2011, 16:38
Many british supply vessels were built without any bridge wing repeaters. The only azimuth ring carried being the one for the Magnetic compass, normally mounted on the monkey Island. I always understood that this was originally due to the small size of the ships and indeed on latter larger OSV's they were compelled by the ships size to have an additional gyro repeater fitted, often this was in a totally unusable position.

However this never stopped us complying fully with a well kept compass record book. It is often forgotten that this is (at the end of the day, so to speak) an essential requirement for safe navigation , particularly on the older ships where only one gyro was fitted. A compass error is a practical thing! You don't need to be spot on and accurate! (Classroom stuff!) You simply need to know that you are heading the right way! Doing that in high latitudes and big seas on a small supply ship takes a degree of skill and ingenuity! In those conditions any outside repeater or azimuth ring is unusable! As anyone who has worked in the northern north sea will tell you! However decent errors can still be obtained and on a very regular basis. The practical and most common solution being the use of leading lights. Checking the vessel alongside where the direction of the quay can be easily plotted is another 'dodge' Another one that I was very fond of in winter was to use a suitable low star, such as Vega , and align the whole ship up to it (in a similar fashion to leading lights) A 'Practical' error can be obtained this way with little effort. These types of ship often carry very magnetic cargo's such as drill pipe a point often little understood.

John Cassels
16th December 2011, 19:50
Dear SM , the last thing I wish to do is get involved in a too deep discussion on
this subject , but with all due respect , your post #51 seems to show that I
have not been able to put forward my point clearly enough.

You say again that if there is no rule/regulation that it has to be done then he is
terchnically correct. Fine , apart from the fact that Andrew's collegue used
the word "unecessary "which is not the same as "not required ".

OK , a small point , but I think an important one and may give us all an insight
into todays "mindthink "of persons in positions of responsibility ashore.

Satanic Mechanic
16th December 2011, 21:20
Dear SM , the last thing I wish to do is get involved in a too deep discussion on
this subject , but with all due respect , your post #51 seems to show that I
have not been able to put forward my point clearly enough.

You say again that if there is no rule/regulation that it has to be done then he is
terchnically correct. Fine , apart from the fact that Andrew's collegue used
the word "unecessary "which is not the same as "not required ".

OK , a small point , but I think an important one and may give us all an insight
into todays "mindthink "of persons in positions of responsibility ashore.

I take your point John and your correct it is not just a matter of semantics. I think maybe a better way of saying what I was getting at is that with a regulation it is enforcable which is a way of dealing with those who think it is unnecessary. Of course it doesn't actually deal with the attitude in the first place