Navigating Apprentices and Cadets ....overtime

barnsey
16th December 2011, 10:40
Can anyone clarify why Navigating Apprentices did not get paid overtime whereas Cadets did.

Navigating Aprrentices did not sign articles Cadets did ....its something to do with that and the BoT regs.

Cant remember the detail ....

R831814
16th December 2011, 11:01
I was a Cadet and signed articles but was never paid overtime.

Do you think I might have a claim?

Pat Thompson
16th December 2011, 11:06
Greetings,

I was an apprentice, did not sign Articles and was paid overtime. I must have been a company thing. The ships were on "B" Articles so all the officers were paid overtime.

Jardine
16th December 2011, 11:27
Apprentices? I thought they were found in shipyards. Don't you mean Midshipmen! This is the Navigation Department we are talking about.

sparkie2182
16th December 2011, 11:39
"Don't you mean Midshipmen"

Were they not R.N. and B.F. only?

:)

callpor
16th December 2011, 11:46
I was a Navigating Apprentice with Port Line commencing articles in 1962. If I recall correctly we signed the Ship's Articles but never got overtime. Don't think the cadets who came a year or so later got overtime either. Pat Thompson is probably right, it's a company thing.

Davie M
16th December 2011, 11:47
Before the education system told all school children that a university education was the way forward,a system of apprenticeships existed in nearly all trades.
Midshipmen were RN, Apprentices and Cadets were MN.
Never paid overtime with Hogarth, but got 30 bonus for completing apprentice indenture.
Davie

sparkie2182
16th December 2011, 11:53
and luncheon vouchers???

:)

Split
16th December 2011, 12:04
I was an apprentice. I did not get overtime payment, but I got plenty of overtime. The nightwatchman's 12 hour shift was the mate's favourite for senior apprentices. In addition, you had to make yourself scarce when you were off duty, too. Be seen and you got a job!

Davie M
16th December 2011, 12:07
and luncheon vouchers???

:)

No just the occasional travel(Wave) warrant

lakercapt
16th December 2011, 12:33
As a deck apprentice I did not sign the ships agreement but did get paid overtime.
It was 1/6d per hour so when I was nightwatchman (many times) it was 12 hour shift and I received 6/- o/t

Jardine
16th December 2011, 12:43
"Don't you mean Midshipmen"

Were they not R.N. and B.F. only?

:)

Blue Funnel of course. I don't believe Runciman Navigation ran to Midshipmen.

Donald McGhee
17th December 2011, 15:51
Donaldsons paid overtime, 1/9d an hour, not just nightwatchman either! I was an Apprentice, never signed articles, but was classified as Cadet with Bank Line when Donaldsons folded in 1967. No overtime there, but the experience was more than worth it.

(Pint)

Pat Thompson
17th December 2011, 15:59
Greetings,

I can remember when "Mouton Cadet" was "Mouton Apprentice"....

woodend
17th December 2011, 16:20
My indentures with E.D.'s are headed 'APPRENTICE'S INDENTURES' and I received a discharge in my book on my first two voyages. After hat nothing until I became Third Mate. The department that we reported to in 'The Kremlin' was known as Steamship / Midshipmen. Strange now you think about it and no we weren't paid overtime. Only extra we got was if we carried livestock and of course the Apprentices got the job of looking after whatever. All good fun!

NoR
17th December 2011, 16:21
Donaldsons paid overtime, 1/9d an hour, not just nightwatchman either! I was an Apprentice, never signed articles, but was classified as Cadet with Bank Line when Donaldsons folded in 1967. No overtime there, but the experience was more than worth it.
(Pint)

I got 1/9d when i started (Lyles) then it went up to 2/4d. Got 1000+ hrs overtime on a 14 month trip. 200 ish not bad in 1964, but v short of sleep on many occasions.

msalter
17th December 2011, 16:35
I was a Cadet with Strick Line and signed on Articles for voyages and never received any overtime payment which was worked dailly, bar, when occasionally on watch keeping duties on the bridge. I can well remember working for 36 hours in Port Sudan with only food breaks and I was creased and fell asllep on the hatch in the end aaaand then dragge dmyself to my bunk!

Andy Lavies
17th December 2011, 17:43
No overtime payment during my apprenticeship. The additional 30 on completion of my indentures was supposed to be for good conduct - did anybody NOT get it?
Andy

TOM ALEXANDER
17th December 2011, 19:27
I was an "Indentured" apprentice --- still have my fancy Indenture on bulletproof paper - covered 3 years of servitude (No overtime) in return for the shipping company (Furness Withy) providing experience and education suitable for preparation for 2nd. mate's ticket. Somewhere in my "archives" so not ready to hand, but I believe my father signed them as "Guarantor".

Dave Filmer
17th December 2011, 20:13
With Blue Star Line we signd on as cadets and were paid overtime which went from 1/9d to 2/3d per hour during my time. The amount earned depended on the mate, 2 trips on the west coast of the States run the mate had the 3 of us on the 4-8 instead of 3 deck hands and worked us 6 hours a day on deck including weekends. This with cargo work on the coast gave us a pay off as good as if not more than 3rd mate.

nautibuoy42
17th December 2011, 20:19
As far as I am aware with LandH we signed standard 2yr articles, and got paid overtime, 1/9d an hour in 1958.

Derek Roger
17th December 2011, 20:28
In Brocklebanks ; Apprentices Indentured ( engineer ) Cadets on Deck if I remember correctly .
All worked lots of overtime without pay .All officers on A articles . The crew either Indian or from Pakistan however were paid overtime . I think also Chippy and QM's got overtime pay when worked .

Derek

jimthehat
17th December 2011, 21:51
Donaldsons paid overtime, 1/9d an hour, not just nightwatchman either! I was an Apprentice, never signed articles, but was classified as Cadet with Bank Line when Donaldsons folded in 1967. No overtime there, but the experience was more than worth it.

(Pint)

I was an apprentice with bank line 1952-56 Overtime was not a word that was in our vocabulary,our hours were long and in port it would be 12 hour shifts.
I stayed with bank line until 1966 and we still had apprentices then .reason I left was that the company were changing over to A articles.

John Dryden
17th December 2011, 21:53
I was one or the other in Bank Line so no overtime and usually called out at anytime of the night,often wonder if the seacunny found it easier to come to my cabin rather than going aft when something needed doing!
When I got a uncert.3/O job nothing really changed as I was informed by the master with a scowl on his face that I had the most overtime of anyone aboard.
I think that was down to the second mate putting me right but I know for sure I didn,t get paid all of it.Good trip though as he also told me I had the biggest bar bill!

Mike S
18th December 2011, 03:39
NZS/Federal we were indentured apprentices on a Cadet Ship.
Much confusion of names there!
No overtime however we were on a sliding payscale up to Cadet Capt who earned around 50% of the 4th Mates rate.
Overtime for us was the cleaning out of the hatches on the coast preparing for refrigerated cargo where we were paid Wharfies rates.
Made more in two to three weeks than the earnings for six months!

jimthehat
18th December 2011, 22:50
I was an "Indentured" apprentice --- still have my fancy Indenture on bulletproof paper - covered 3 years of servitude (No overtime) in return for the shipping company (Furness Withy) providing experience and education suitable for preparation for 2nd. mate's ticket. Somewhere in my "archives" so not ready to hand, but I believe my father signed them as "Guarantor".

Still got my indentures from 1952-1956,I served on 3 ship during my four years,17months..13 months.. adn 16 months,All three ships are entered on the back of my indentures9which I still have) and my discharge book also has the entries with Vg for all three.
My father signed the indentures along with a local soliciter.

jim

BAROONA
19th December 2011, 08:59
I was an "indentured cadet" in Port Line, 1969 to 1972. We did not get paid overtime and in one ship the PORT MONTREAL, you had to be very scarce on sunday mornings in NZ else the mate would get you working with the crowd who were on overtime.
However, up till the early 1970s, you could get 'Shore Pay' working on the Aussie Coast.

Ron Stringer
19th December 2011, 10:06
However, up till the early 1970s, you could get 'Shore Pay' working on the Aussie Coast.

Believe that was courtesy of the Australian unions shoreside, (who insisted that apprentices and other crew members were paid for that work) rather than the generosity of the shipowner.

joebuckham
19th December 2011, 10:16
Believe that was courtesy of the Australian unions shoreside, (who insisted that apprentices and other crew members were paid for that work) rather than the generosity of the shipowner.

we used to go up to the gate and volunteer for an evening or weekend shift . i believe we were known as seagulls or seagull labour

slick
20th December 2011, 12:57
All,
'Eight Hours Day of Arrival', now there was crime against us.

Yours aye,

slick

Clanline
20th December 2011, 13:05
As a cadet in Union Castle/Clan Line we did not get overtime and even off watch we were called out in port, especially on the U-C ships, to top derricks etc rather than have the crew out and pay THEM overtime!
We often went ashore even if we were broke (most of the time) just to avoid the extra work!

S Fraser
21st December 2011, 09:40
In Brocklebanks ; Apprentices Indentured ( engineer ) Cadets on Deck if I remember correctly .
All worked lots of overtime without pay .All officers on A articles . The crew either Indian or from Pakistan however were paid overtime . I think also Chippy and QM's got overtime pay when worked .

Derek

In Brocklebanks we were indentured apprentices on deck as well. I had the unusual situation where I started as an apprentice, then had to come ashore because of a medical condition and Brocks cancelled my indentures after 6 months. After nearly a year ashore i rejoined Brocks to finish my training, but had to come back as a cadet, and the entry in my discharge book was altered to show this change in the articles.

In neither position was I ever paid overtime, nor did I expect it.

Stan

John Travis Whitehead
21st December 2011, 09:57
Regarding Dave Filmers Post.

I also was a cadet with Blue Star Line.

One trip I sort of recollect was on the "Mendoza Star" in I believe 1963.

The cadets did the 4-8 watch and then day work, seven days a week at sea and in port.

After a nine week trip from U.K. to South America via Spain, the Canary Islands, and then back via Denmark to U.K. I paid off with something over four hundred pounds.

Got home and slept for a couple of days as I remember.

Regards to all and a Merry Christmas and all you wish yourself in the New Year.

chrischild
28th January 2012, 04:56
All I know is that on many occasion when the pilots ladder needed to be deployed,
I was called to struggle with the unweildly bundle, because if the called an AB they had to pay him minimum 2 hours overtime.
Those were the days
Chris

enzoneo
28th January 2012, 08:55
[QUOTE=Clanline;560088]As a cadet in Union Castle/Clan Line we did not get overtime and even off watch we were called out in port, especially on the U-C ships, to top derricks etc rather than have the crew out and pay THEM overtime!
We often went ashore even if we were broke (most of the time) just to avoid the extra work![/

Similar to my experience with Ellermans, loads of 'overtime' but no overtime pay. Day work at sea and 12on 6off 6on 12 off .... working cargo in port. I remember auto pilot going on the blink so had to take my turn on the wheel from Mombassa to UK 4on 4off for a couple of weeks - knackering but got my steering cert - how I stayed awake sometimes LOL.

Nova Scotian
28th January 2012, 15:01
As a navigating apprentice with Houlders, I was usually at the mercy of the mate when it came to the number of hours I worked. Apprentices did not receive overtime during my apprenticeship from 1964 - 68. Occasionally we were compensated with the odd can of beer, or time off in lieu after particularly long or demanding duties.

During my time on the the LPG Clerk Maxwell, me and my mate, Tony Barriss, worked six on-six off in the compressor room when the automatic system failed. Not the best place to be for three weeks in a hot, ammonia filled, room wearing a gas mask. Houlders rewarded us with a cheque for 20 pounds for services beyond the call of duty. My dad, when I told him what we had done to earn it, said I should have framed it and not cashed it.

Never minded working long hours for good Ch' Offs but hated the idea when tasked by some of the more smellie ones. Never had any regrets regarding my time with Houlders.

Cheers

LANCE BALL
30th January 2012, 18:13
Apprentices were indentured for four years seatime, Cadets engaged on a voyage basis. I was a Cadet and paid overtime at O.S rate per NMB rule book.This was 1945 to 1949'
Lance Ball

vasco
1st February 2012, 12:35
Indentured as an apprentice with Houlders 1968, no overtime. We got a 5 chippy bonus occassionally for doing soundings when on Tankers without chippies, such as the Black max. This came off the Bond Bill.
Around 1970 when HNC? was introduced we were rebranded as Cadets because Apprentice sounded to "bag carrying". This was the time that salaries across fleets were re-organised, I recollect some Cadets got massive pay rises.
As always, this may be corrected by others because it was a long time ago.

John Dryden
1st February 2012, 13:29
Indentured as an apprentice with Houlders 1968, no overtime. We got a 5 chippy bonus occassionally for doing soundings when on Tankers without chippies, such as the Black max. This came off the Bond Bill.
Around 1970 when HNC? was introduced we were rebranded as Cadets because Apprentice sounded to "bag carrying". This was the time that salaries across fleets were re-organised, I recollect some Cadets got massive pay rises.
As always, this may be corrected by others because it was a long time ago.

You are right Vasco,about 1970 I was App. in Bank lIne and my pay went from 19 a month to 52.Something like a 120% rise...I was rich!

Caffj
13th February 2012, 15:18
I was an Indentured Apprentice with the North Shipping Co (Hugh Roberts & Son) from 1953 to 1957. I was paid overtime,(probably not all the hours I worked)but the money was a god sent given my pay was 7 per month (1st Year). At the end of my Apprenticeship I got back the 25 my father had paid
as sercurity bond.
Caffj

Waighty
21st February 2012, 15:56
I was a cadet in Ben Line and overtime was definitely not paid.

The only overtime paying job I had was as 3/O and 2/O with Bank Line when they were on B Articles. Perversely, the Mate was on A Articles presumably because they put in a lot of hours! Sailed on one ship where in a daywork only port (in Aussie) both the 3/O and myelf were required to be on deck all day Monday to Friday but only one of us on Saturday by order of the Old Man. I complained aplenty to no avail but "Master under God..."

I believe, that in theory, cadets could move about freely to companies until they had their qualifying time in, unlike indentured apprentices. In practice though I never heard of anyone doing so.

Donald McGhee
24th February 2012, 20:41
You are right Vasco,about 1970 I was App. in Bank lIne and my pay went from 19 a month to 52.Something like a 120% rise...I was rich!

If I had known that I might not have run away!!!!