Jervis Bay

Cap'n Pete
23rd June 2006, 18:32
I am very proud to be master of m.v. Jervis Bay. She may not be the biggest, most modern or fastest container ship in the world, but she does, I believe, have the proudest name.
A.P.Moller / Maersk intend changing her name to Maersk Dalton as part of their takeover of P&O Nedlloyd. To be fair, they have not yet done so even though every other British ship in the former Blue Star / P&O Nedlloyd fleet has had their named changed.
I wonder what other forum members think? Is it fair to ask Maersk to keep this famous name?

gdynia
23rd June 2006, 18:35
I am very proud to be master of m.v. Jervis Bay. She may not be the biggest, most modern or fastest container ship in the world, but she does, I believe, have the proudest name.
A.P.Moller / Maersk intend changing her name to Maersk Dalton as part of their takeover of P&O Nedlloyd. To be fair, they have not yet done so even though every other British ship in the former Blue Star / P&O Nedlloyd fleet has had their named changed.
I wonder what other forum members think? Is it fair to ask Maersk to keep this famous name?

Sir
It would be a crying shame to take a name like that away especially after the heroics her predeccesor went thro

R58484956
23rd June 2006, 19:04
I do not think that AP Moller are in the sentiment business, they will change it, unless we have a miracle.

Hugh MacLean
23rd June 2006, 19:41
Cap'n Pete,

Yes of course it is fair to ask the company to keep the name.

I for one would be sad to see the name consigned to history. Your ship is a reminder to us all of a great ship with a proud history that saved many at a great cost.

We always had a tradition of naming new ships after old especially during the war years. When one was sunk a new ship carried the old name thus remembering those who went before. This was true of both the RN and MN.

No doubt some will say: "what's in a name"?

Cap'n, I hope you sail aboard the Jervis Bay for a good while yet.

Best wishes

Santos
23rd June 2006, 19:44
Well said Hugh.

A very proud name in British Maritime History, keep it going, there are enough people trying to strip us of our history.

Long may she sail under the name of Jervis Bay.

Chris.

waiwera
23rd June 2006, 20:41
|take it that your vessel cannot be the old OCL vessel the only British built vessel of the six original bay container ships?
She was certainly the best - built to imperial rather than metric measure. So did not suffer from the same vibration problems

Cap'n Pete
24th June 2006, 09:50
|take it that your vessel cannot be the old OCL vessel the only British built vessel of the six original bay container ships?
She was certainly the best - built to imperial rather than metric measure. So did not suffer from the same vibration problems

No, the present Jervis Bay was built in 1992, the first of a new class of 4,000 teu plus container ships meant to replace the "Baby Bays".

Please find attached a photo of the Jervis Bay taken earlier this year in Kingston.

oldbosun
24th June 2006, 11:56
Congratulations Cap'n Pete.

You know and we know the pride we take in that revered name "Jervis Bay", but sadly, who else does?
Certainly not some foreign ship owner. Even if they did, would they care about British history?. Not on your life! If they got to know the significance, all the more quicker they'd change it.
I remember the "Jervis Bay" event when it happened.
There's a song or poem written about it and "gallant Captain Fegan". He was awarded the Victoria Cross posthumously, the only civilian to receive that honor ever, strictly because he was RNR and "Jervis Bay" flew the Blue Ensign.

Head up and chest out when you walk ashore Cap'n Pete.........Peter (Applause)

slick
24th June 2006, 14:38
Good Afternoon All,
Whilst browsing around a Bookstall with the usual selection of secondhand books, I came across a book titled Poems of Spirit and Action and within a poem or rather epic story of the AMC Jervis Bay I'll quote the lines that caught my eye,

" On either side the Jervis Bay the convoy was dipping
And the Captain as he paced the bridge paused one hand gripping
A stanchion, to study them against the amber rim
Of sky -the ships whose safety was entrusted to him,
They spread a broad battalion, massed in columns nine abreast,
There Trewellard, Cornish City, San Demetrio - North-by-North West
Was it smoke or cloud? - Castillian, Rangitiki , and the rest.
Satisfied, he turned to go below; when a sudden gleam
Flickered in the North, and a shout from a lookout, "Ship on the port beam."
Two seconds, and Captain's glasses rake the horizon to norrard,
Two more, and the bells ring Action Stations. Aft, midships, forrard,"
And so on truly a saga.
It was written by Michael Thwaites and the book bears an undecipherable school name stamp on the flyleaf from 1960.
Michael Thwaites would appear to be a seaman as his phraseology is seamanlike.
I would like to think that someone somewhere learnt something of the Merchant Navy in Wartime.
Yours aye,
Slick

Derek Roger
25th June 2006, 01:25
Capt Pete;
If you look in my Gallery you will see a couple of pictures of the Jervis Bay Memorial in Saint John New Brunswick Canada ,
Also check out Stuart Smiths Gallery under Maidan which was a Brocklebank ship lost in the same convoy . Stuart has a very excellent account of the Valiant Jervis Bay and Capt Foggerty V.C
Derek

dom
25th June 2006, 01:39
it would be good to keep the name,not for a place,but for what she did and why it was done,and last but not least for all the seamen in that convoy those who lost their lives and those who did the next trip,and the next.

Cap'n Pete
25th June 2006, 07:58
Capt Pete;
If you look in my Gallery you will see a couple of pictures of the Jervis Bay Memorial in Saint John New Brunswick Canada ,
Also check out Stuart Smiths Gallery under Maidan which was a Brocklebank ship lost in the same convoy . Stuart has a very excellent account of the Valiant Jervis Bay and Capt Foggerty V.C
Derek
Derek,
Many thanks for this. In the allyway between mine and the chief's cabin are a huge (and I mean huge) number of testimonials, photographs and other items including (and not least) those provided by the Jervis Bay Memorial custodians in Canada.
For interest, other items include a Victoria Cross, the chief engineer's discharge book open at the last entry "vessel lost to enemy action", Winston Churchill's speech on the Jervis Bay delivered to Parliment, pictures, photographs, newspaper cuttings, etc. etc. Even testimonials from a small troop of sea cadets in Reading who's "ship" is also called the Jervis Bay.
As I walk from my cabin to the bridge every day I am reminded of the great sacrifice our fathers made to defend our country in time of war. However, when I say good morning to my Ukrainian chief engineer and Filipino OOW I sometimes wonder who were the real victors (and I mean no disrespect to any or our crew in saying that).
If Maersk do change our ships name I hope they will flag out the ship at the same time. Somehow, I would not longer feel myself worthy of the honour of maintaining this memorial to some very brave men.
Cap'n Pete

Rusty
25th June 2006, 09:14
At a recent Remembrance Day service the 1st Sea Lord, I believe it was, stated that if you joined the Army during WW2 you had a 1 in 28 chance of being killed. If you joined the RN you had a 1 in 18 chance of being killed. But if you joined the Merchant Navy you had a 1 in 5 chance of being killed. Yet how many representatives of the MN do we ever see in the march past the cenotaph?

Not strictly relevant to a thread about the Jervis Bay but I thought the figures might be useful when discussions take place about the role of the MN in wartime.

Rusty

Derek Roger
25th June 2006, 15:18
Your comment is very relevent Rusty .

Colwyn Grace
25th June 2006, 19:33
Yes, the name Jervis Bay should be kept. It is a reminder of the bravery and ultimate sacrifices made by thousands of Allied Merchant Seamen in WW2.

On a more cynical note though, there is not a cat in hells chance. Cap'n Pete sums it up when he makes mention of his multi-national crew.

Shipowners haven't changed much in 60 years - in the war your wages stopped when your ship was sunk, no matter how long it took to get back to the UK.

Sentimentality and history don't produce shareholder profits.

Richard Green
26th June 2006, 15:21
Thought you might be interested. Follow this link to the INA - The French National Video Archive - http://www.ina.fr/voir_revoir/guerre/mondiales/41-48.fr.html#11
If you click on the yellow image to the right of the picture of the cruiser you can watch some footage of shipping being shelled - if I am not wrong the Jervis Bay is mentioned. I would suggest watching without the sound as the commentary is in French and the images are Vichy régime newsreel but it gives an idea of what it was like to be sunk by shelling and the conditions the seamen endured. I particularly dislike the movietone style background music which reminds me of a jolly report on a football match.

Cap'n Pete
27th June 2006, 09:02
Very interesting piece of film and, yes, it does mention the "Jervis Bay". Just as well I do not understand French or I might dislike the French even more after watching this Vichy propoganda.
I commanded an ex French ship some years ago (PONL Lyttleton, ex Lafayette). This ship had a number of tapered wooden plugs in the focs'le store for plugging shell holes in the hull. These were variously marked "British 4 inch" etc. As the ship was built in the mid-1980's you have to wonder who the French still regard as their enemy.

azimuth
27th June 2006, 11:29
Yes, the name Jervis Bay should be kept. It is a reminder of the bravery and ultimate sacrifices made by thousands of Allied Merchant Seamen in WW2.

On a more cynical note though, there is not a cat in hells chance. Cap'n Pete sums it up when he makes mention of his multi-national crew.

Shipowners haven't changed much in 60 years - in the war your wages stopped when your ship was sunk, no matter how long it took to get back to the UK.

Sentimentality and history don't produce shareholder profits.
Quote from The Bank for International Settlements:- "International Finance recognises no borders and owes no loyalty."

Hillview
27th June 2006, 20:57
FYI there was another V.C. awarded postumously to a Captain Bisset Smith whose ship the s.s Otaki was sunk by the commerce raider Moewe off the Azores on March 17 th 1917.

Keltic Star
28th June 2006, 06:06
Just a thought. Would some 7,000 emails from SN subscribers help to convince A.P Moller to keep the name?
From past dealings with them, they may be very astute shipowners but the Moller/Maersk family have always been honorable Gentlemen.
From Capt. Pete's description of the valuable memorabilia on board the "Jervis Bay", they just might be delighted to keep the name if the facts were brought to their personal attention.

waimea
28th June 2006, 10:28
Seafarers have sentimentality but ship owners have never. Run these days by bean counters, I can't really see any difference to how it was during the 60s and 70s when I was sea. Remember one's "wack" promulgated for all to see on the bulkhead! I often think we recall those days through rose-tinted glasses. Ship owners have always been *****s and few ever gave a stuff about the men who manned their ships. Nothing has changed and Jervis Bay has already changed her name. I wonder if our Capt. Pete is now working for A.P.Moller

Cap'n Pete
28th June 2006, 11:56
I think you may be being too hard on A.P.Moller. I do indeed work for A.P.Moller but my ship is still called the "Jervis Bay" and flies the red ensign on her stern. The company has not yet changed our name nor given a definite indication when they intend to do so.
A.P.Moller is the most successful private shipping company in the world. They did not get that way by ignoring the wishes of their customers and will, I am sure, review any plans for our name to be changed if they determine that's a good idea commercially.
A.P.Moller was started by a ship's captain and while I do not pretend to know a lot of the history behind the company, I have detected that the company is run in a seamanlike manner.

iain mac
28th June 2006, 16:03
worked for ap moller for anumber of years.Ithink you'll find that like most shipping companies ap moller is run for the benefit of maersk mckinney and the shareholders.
In the early eighties with the full connivance of the unions, they got the sea staff to sign Singapore contracts and then promptly sacked most of them.Since everybody was still on a years probation no redundancy was due.Latterly they gotrid of the phillipino ratings and british crane drivers onthe T class feeders and replaced them with poles.the poles were'nt up to the crane driving standards required by the charterers and brits had to be flown out to sort out the mess.My last job with maersk was aproduct tanker with a full crew of south african ratings none of whom had ever been on atanker before,Ibelieve they are now putting south african ratings on the supplyboats,south africa seems to be the latest sourc of cheap seamenfor maersk.

Keltic Star
29th June 2006, 07:09
As one who has been both a Ship's Master and in shoreside marine management my comments on the recent posts are:

Keeping the name "Jervis Bay" would save a little money but may offend some of today's international customers.

Seamen have worked long hours for little pay since Christ was a Cowboy but bean counters have also been running shipping company's for just as long. The conditions for seamen have improved dramatically since the early days of Samuel Cunard, Alfred Holt, Chas. Hill et.al. all of whom made fortunes from seafarers sweat. But most of us say "we would do it again". How many miners or mill workers would say the same?

Most family owned shipping company's have as much sentiment for their ships as the crew's. Remember Maggie Bowater, Derek Bibby and Ethel Everard. I have seen the odd tear from an owner when one of his ships is sold, but like any other business a shipping company is run for the benefit of the shareholders. It was they who took the initial financial risks. their names were/are on the bank guarantees, not the crew's.

However, without good crew's, regardless of nationality, a company is not going to make it in the long run. Unfortunately however, a full British, U.S. Australian or Canadian crewed ship cannot compete in the world market anymore, or should I say, at this point in time. Who know's how things may change in the future.

oldbosun
1st July 2006, 19:38
I must now correct myself in regard to a statement I made in this subject.

I stated that Captain Fogerty Fegan was the only civilian to be awarded the Victoria Cross, and I just discovered that I am wrong.
I am reading only today, the Summer 2006 issue of the "Full Ahead" magazine of the British Merchant Navy Association.
According to an article in there, in March of 1917, the British ship "Otaki" was attacked and sunk by the German armed merchant cruiser "Mowe".

Otaki's Captain, Archibald Bisset Smith went down with his ship after giving the "Mowe" a great fight,and causing her much damage.

After the war, the Admiralty made Archibald Bisset Smith a posthumous lieutenant in the RNR, thus making him elegible for being awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross, which his widow received in 1919.

Now this leaves me wondering if there are any more VC's awarded in like manner.

ccwmariner
8th August 2006, 20:05
Captain Fegen was actually a naval officer, nothing RNR about him. The AMC Jervis Bay was actually under the white ensign when she met her end in the Atlantic. There were a large number of MN personnel on board at the time but they were under T124 Articles. The Chief Engineer was one such officer.

Fegen was the son and grandson of naval officers. He served at sea throughout the First World War, after attending Dartmouth. He also served as commanding officer of the Royal Australian Navy's College at, Jervis Bay. He took command of Jervis Bay in March 1940.

Another Victoria Cross was awarded to an Orient Line officer serving as the commanding officer of the trawler 'Arab'. Richard Been Stannard survived the war and rejoined the Orient Line, eventually finishing his career as Marine Superintendent of P&O Orient Lines in Australia. He died in Sydney in July 1977. Richard Stannard was the first RNR officer to be awarded the VC during the 2nd World War.

Dave Anderson
21st August 2006, 20:57
Can anyone tell me where I can purchase a copy of the painting of the Jarvis Bay in action. I beleive the original painting used to hang in the merchant navy hotel in Liverpool

K urgess
21st August 2006, 21:25
Merchant Navy VCs

Captain Bisset Smith, who went down with his ship, the Otaki after being attacked by the Moewe was a civilian and therefore not strictly entitled to receive the VC, so he was posthumously gazetted a lieutenant in the Royal Naval Reserve as a workaround solution.

On the 22nd. of May in 1920, a Royal Warrant changed the rules as to the award of the VC, and added the Mercantile Marine, as shown below -

Sixthly: It is ordained that:-

1) Officers, Warrant Officers and subordinate Officers hereinafter referred to as Officers, Chief Petty Officers and Petty Officers, hereinafter referred to as Petty Officer, men and boys hereinafter referred to as Seamen serving in - (a) Our Navy or in ships of any description for the time being under Naval Command; (b) Our Indian Marine Service; (c) Navies or Marine Services of Our Dominions, Colonies, Dependencies or Protectorates; and (d) Our Mercantile Marine whilst serving under Naval or Military Authority, or who in the course of their duties may become subject to enemy action.

2) Officers, Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, men and boys hereinafter referred to as Marines, serving in Our Marines.

3) Officers, Warrant Officers (Classes I and II), Non-commissioned Officers, men and boys hereinafter referred to as Privates, of all ranks serving in Our Army, Our Army Reserve, Our Territorial or other forces, and the forces of Our Dominions, Colonies, Dependencies or Protectorates.

4) Officers, Warrant Officers, Non-commissioned Officers, and Airmen in the ranks of Our Air Force, or the Air Forces of Our Dominions, Colonies, Dependencies or Protectorates.

5) British and Indian Officers and men of all ranks of Our Indian Army, the Imperial Service Troops of Native States of India or any other Forces there serving under the Command, guidance, or direction of any British or Indian Officer, or of a Political Officer attached to such Forces on Our behalf.

6) Matrons, Sisters, Nurses of the staff of the Nursing Services and other Services pertaining to Hospitals and Nursing, and Civilians of either sex serving regularly or temporarily under the Orders, direction or supervision of any of the above mentioned Forces shall be eligible for the decoration of the Cross.

Not a lot of people know that (*))

John B.
22nd August 2006, 02:07
Many years ago as a Reserve officer I attended the RAN Staff college,HMAS PENGUIN, a painting of the JERVIS BAY action was displayed in the College, it looked like an original, presume it is still there.

brgds John B.

NoMoss
10th May 2007, 09:53
There have been mentions recently of the present Jervis Bay retaining the name following the welcome decision by Maersk Line.
Also there will be a ceremony at Kirkill, Wick, to unveil a plaque honouring the nine Caithness sailors who sailed on her.
I can remember someone reciting the Ballad of Jervis Bay when I was not long at sea and was glad to see part of it in this thread.
My interest was aroused fairly recently when I learnt that a neighbour was the daughter of Horace Nicholls, an AB who survived the sinking of the Jervis Bay. My neighbour, Grace, can remember her father returning as a very traumatised man and that November 5th was never celebrated in her house.

Pat McCardle
10th May 2007, 13:14
Jervis Bay was prefixed HMS, hence Captain Fegan, being RNR & probably a Leuitenant Commander, not strictly being 'civilian' in time of war & getting the VC. The R.A.N. has kept the name going for a lot longer than any 'British' company & rightly so. I would imagine the VC & other artifacts on display on present day JB are most likely copies due to the originals commercial worth?

We will see how long Maersk keep this name...........When is the next dry dock due?

David Davies
10th May 2007, 20:33
There was one other V.C. awarded to a ship's master in the 14-18 war, the ship was the Anglo? ( I can't remember but it might be Anglo Canadian)

vic pitcher
11th May 2007, 06:33
There was one other V.C. awarded to a ship's master in the 14-18 war, the ship was the Anglo? ( I can't remember but it might be Anglo Canadian)

London Gazette 24th May 1919: VCs awarded to Captain Frederick Parslow of Lawther Latta's "Anglo-Californian and Captain Archibald Smith of NZS's "Otaki"

Cap'n Pete
11th May 2007, 09:05
SN members will be pleased to learn to that Maersk Line (A.P.Moller) have now decided to retain the name of m.v. Jervis Bay.

As master of the Jervis Bay, it gives me great pleasure to thank Maersk Line as charterers, and Reederei Blue Star as owners, for their consideration of the views of the families of those who gave their lives on HMAMS Jervis Bay, and those of us who have proudly served on ships since honoured with the name.

For information, a number of family members of those who served on the HMAMS Jervis Bay have sailed on the present Jervis Bay, including our first chief engineer who was the son of one those who gave their lives.

The present Jervis Bay is now 15 years old. However, I hope that Maersk Line will transfer the name to a new build when my ship is finally sent to the recycling yard. I feel it is very important that we remember the contribution made by the Jervis Bay and her mixed crew of naval and merchant seamen and the great sacrifice they made for their country.

AlexBooth
11th May 2007, 14:40
Hip Hip Hooray ! So some tradition is still alive and kicking - Congrats Capt. and may she sail to many many more horizons with such an auspicious and honorable name. Cheers (Pint) , Alex

NoMoss
11th May 2007, 17:58
Hip Hip Hooray ! So some tradition is still alive and kicking - Congrats Capt. and may she sail to many many more horizons with such an auspicious and honorable name. Cheers (Pint) , Alex


Hear, Hear to that.

VTR1000
12th May 2007, 07:01
SN members will be pleased to learn to that Maersk Line (A.P.Moller) have now decided to retain the name of m.v. Jervis Bay.

I feel it is very important that we remember the contribution made by the Jervis Bay and her mixed crew of naval and merchant seamen and the great sacrifice they made for their country.

Congratulations Cap'n Pete on having the name retained and as you state, it is very important that we all remember.

As an aside, I sailed on the present (your) Jervis Bay on one of her first voyages. At that time she was on the Europe - Far East trade. Just had a look at the old book and it was the 9/2/93 that I joined her in Southampton. Unfortunately I am unable to decipher the Master's signature and I have a memory like a sieve.

G.

trotterdotpom
12th May 2007, 15:33
What does 'Maersk Dalton' mean? Can't they call her 'Maersk Jervis Bay'?

Jervis Bay is in Australia, if Moller's decide to pull a number and change the ship's name, why not enlist the aid of Princess Mary, the Australian wife of Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark?

Just a thought.

John T.

Pat McCardle
12th May 2007, 16:46
[QUOTE=trotterdotpom;126808]What does 'Maersk Dalton' mean? Can't they call her 'Maersk Jervis Bay'?

Jervis Bay is in Australia, if Moller's decide to pull a number and change the ship's name, why not enlist the aid of Princess Mary, the Australian wife of Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark?

Just a thought.

That name sounds like the right idea John but will A.P.Moller do it? I think not

graymay
13th September 2007, 22:26
I sailed on the last Jervis in 81-82, i had a wonderful time on the Kiwi coast and the memories are special.

Mr Moller is a ruthless buissness man who has no compassion whatsoever and the word 'respect' is certainly not in his vocabulary. Not many people prosperred during the war, however Mr Moller was one of them, shame on him!

Shipbuilder
14th September 2007, 09:57
Was ever tale more splendid told of gold & green & geen & gold?
Was ever gallant maid more gay & debonair than JERVIS BAY?
Half sister she to many a queen & fair princess from Aberdeen,
Bedecked in gold, begowned in green -

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4263/jervisbay0em.jpg

Brian Dobbie
14th September 2007, 11:45
Lets not forget that the present Jervis Bay has only four British Officers in the compliment, the rest of the Officers are Ukrainian and the ratings are Filipinos.
Other ships in this class have no British left onboard all the Officers are Ukrainian and ratings Filipino.
The Jervis Bay is owned and managed by a German Ship ManagementCompany and all onboard have German labour Contracts and are paid by the German Ship Management Company.
The British still sail under the old T&C's, even although they have German Labour Contracts, but for how long???
Even the two Cadets are Filipino.

We must never forget the sacrifice of the men in WW2 but things have changed, we have to live in this world as it is in 2007.

Brian

Cap'n Pete
5th November 2007, 12:37
The other ships in the Jervis Bay class are returning to top-4 British manning.

Those of us at sea do live in the real world and we continue to fight for what we consider to be right for us. The Jervis Bay is German-owned, etc. as Brian quite rightly says, but it is still called the Jervis Bay because our voices were heard by Maersk.

I firmly believe that British seafarers have an important part to play in world shipping and that we still retain an influence and strength which goes way beyond the numbers of us who remain at sea.

It will be a sad day when the last British seafarer goes down the gangway, but that day is still a long way off. In the meantime, and in collaboration with other European officers trade unions, we will continue to strive for fairness, and an end to exploitation of seafarers no matter where they come from.

Chouan
5th November 2007, 13:39
Interesting that again, with no disrespect to the Jervis Bay or her Officers and Crew, the Royal Navy get all the credit and the recognition whilst the true heroes of the day are ignored or forgotten.
The Admiralty Made Coffin HMS Jervis Bay bravely held off the Scheer for about 20 minutes before going down, losing 190 of her 255 crew, giving convoy HX 84 time to scatter, but not time to escape.
However, the CP general cargo ship "Beaverford", defensively armed with a 4" gun aft managed, through skilful manoevring, to maintain the Scheer's attention for 4 1/2 hours until nightfall, essentially allowing most of the rest of the convoy to escape before being sunk with all hands. Part of her cargo was munitions!
Despite this, we all know about the Jervis Bay, a warship doing its duty, admittedly, an auxiliary warship with obsolete guns, but we are ignorant of the role played by a truly heroic Merchant Ship.
Is this simple ignorance? or symptomatic of an obsession with the armed forces at the expense of the Merch, despite the fact that most of the contributors to this thread, and this forum are ex Merch?

James_C
5th November 2007, 14:46
I read about the 'Beaverford' in Richard Woodmans excellent book and I too had never heard of her before.
As I recall witnesses said she simply disappeared in a cloud of fire and smoke - obviously a shell from the Admiral Scheer had detonated her cargo of ammunition.
To go up against a Pocket Battleship with 11inch guns with nothing more than a poop mounted 4 inch almost defies belief - brave men indeed.

K urgess
5th November 2007, 15:08
Partly the force of the media again.
The Master of one of the Polish vessels wrote to the Times (I think that was the one, can't blame the Daily Mirror for everything(LOL)) and Jervis Bay became a Cause Celebre.

whiskey johnny
5th November 2007, 16:32
sir
glad that theyretained the name for the jervis bay but as they say in denmark the seven pointed star in the funnel of the maersk schipsindicate that for the company there are seven working days in a week
do not expect sentiment from such a company yours jan

Steve Woodward
5th November 2007, 17:46
Today being the 67th anniversary of her loss perhaps a look at the circumstances of that night are in order.
Jervis Bay was a Vickers built 1922 Aberdeen & Commonwealth Line steamer armed with seven Mk7 6" guns built and designed ironically by Vickers, they were originally removed from scrapped warships, not of WW2 nor WW1 in fact they dated from an 1895 design and would have been carried in ships of the 1900-05 years, they fired a shell weighing 100 lbs and used bagged propellant with a range of almost 18,000 yards when new. Against them the Scheer was using six guns of 11" calibre designed in 1928 firing a 661 lbs shell of considerable more range almost 40,000 yards. plus of course eight 5.9".

Ships sunk that night were, with lives lost:
Jervis Bay 187
Beaverford 77
Kenbane head 24
Maidean 91 ( all hands)
Trewelland 16
Vigaland 12

It has been suggested that the Jervis bay was singled out for medals, praise etc at the benefit of the other ships who sank and lost men that day, however Captain E.S.F.Fegen whilst giving the order for the convoy to scatter attacked a far large adversary with only one possible outcome, when he gave the order to scatter Fegen's ship was one of the fastest in the convoy, even though 15 knots was not all that fast she would still have had a chance to escape had fegen chosen to scatter as well.
Because of Fegens bravery others got that chance thats wy he deserves the VC

Hugh MacLean
5th November 2007, 18:16
Partly the force of the media again.
The Master of one of the Polish vessels wrote to the Times (I think that was the one, can't blame the Daily Mirror for everything(LOL)) and Jervis Bay became a Cause Celebre.

Captain Piekarski of the small Polish ship Puck

Regards

James_C
5th November 2007, 18:28
Steve,
In a similar vein you could say the Master of the Beaverford was also worthy of a VC.

K urgess
5th November 2007, 18:40
I've just come across something, I think it was in "The Real Cruel Sea", that seems to say that, although there was an order in council to make awards to the Merchant Service, it was not ratified.
Something must have happened later in the war because all campaign medals were awarded but most bravery awards to Merchant Service personnel appear to have been the civilian ones.
Whether this is because of the rule that the bravery must be in the face of the enemy or because of the lack of ratification of the award structure I don't know.
The bravery of Captain Fegen and his crew is not in dispute and they deserve to be honoured.
The delay to the Scheer caused by the Beaverford was much greater and with considerably less chance of success.
The Captain (I can't merely call him Master under the circumstances) and his crew must've been bloody angry about having their peaceful occasions disturbed by a jumped up tin can!
They should have been equally honoured.

Chouan
5th November 2007, 21:38
The "Beaverford" carried an equally obsolete 4" gun, firing shells of less weight to much less range, to less effect, manned by DEMS gun layers, with Merchant Navy seamen as ammunition carriers, with limited numbers of shells from unprotected ready use lockers, no underwater magazine, no ammunition hoists, no Director, no range finder, less speed, a shieldless gun mounted on the poop, whilst carrying munitions as cargo.
She had far less chance than the Jervis Bay, and knew it, yet she didn't run, giving the convoy far more of a chance to escape.
The Admiralty and the government knew about both actions and both losses, yet honoured Fegen and HMS Jervis Bay and not the "Beaverford".
Why?

"It has been suggested that the Jervis bay was singled out for medals, praise etc at the benefit of the other ships who sank and lost men that day, however Captain E.S.F.Fegen whilst giving the order for the convoy to scatter attacked a far large adversary with only one possible outcome, when he gave the order to scatter Fegen's ship was one of the fastest in the convoy, even though 15 knots was not all that fast she would still have had a chance to escape had fegen chosen to scatter as well.
Because of Fegens bravery others got that chance thats wy he deserves the VC"

Nobody is arguing with you. What is being suggested is that he wasn't the only one, and that others, such as the Master of the "Beaverford" actually, probably, deserved it more.

Derek Roger
6th November 2007, 00:30
Being the 5th Nov I went down to the monument today in Saint John .
I took a picture but the light was not good to pick up the relief of the bronze plaque . I will try again earlier in the morning when the sun is right .

While the Jervis Bay did have survivors the Brocklebank ship Maidan was lost with all hands in the same battle . She was caught and sunk after the Jervis Bay intervention .

On the 11th the Memorial will be well served including the Jervis Bay Pipe Band .

When I worked at Saint John Shipbuilding a lot of the " old hands " would tell stories of the crew whom they had got to know very well during her refit in Saint John ; close friends ships were made and almost all were lost .

The memorial stood at the head of the dock in Saint John Shipbuilding but was moved to its present site when the dock had to be lengthened for the Canadian Frigate Program .
There was a hug "Hue and Cry " opposing the movement of the monument at the time as Saint Johners had a real tangible relationship with the Jervis Bay and still do !

The 53 Royal Canadian Legion is still active and generates most of the support for the Memorial .

Regards Derek

Cap'n Pete
6th November 2007, 09:17
sir
glad that theyretained the name for the jervis bay but as they say in denmark the seven pointed star in the funnel of the maersk schipsindicate that for the company there are seven working days in a week
do not expect sentiment from such a company yours jan

Although my company has only been under Maersk control for a short time, I have already discovered that they have a set of values which they adhere to and this includes respect for their seagoing staff. Sentiment can be a commercial commodity and any company which ignores the wishes of the general public and it's employees is unlikely to generate much in the way of profits. However, it is up to the employees and the public to make their wishes known and this is what I, and others, have done to retain the name of the JERVIS BAY. Maersk have shown it's wisdom and good public relations atitude by retaining the name of JERVIS BAY. This is not "sentiment" but good economic sense!

Al-Crawford
20th April 2008, 15:35
|take it that your vessel cannot be the old OCL vessel the only British built vessel of the six original bay container ships?
She was certainly the best - built to imperial rather than metric measure. So did not suffer from the same vibration problems

If memory serves me correct this old OCL ship broke her back in the Bay of Biscay on her way to the scrap yard of the East, sailed on her twice myself in 1978 and 1982, and yes I remember the vibration now you bring it up.

Didn't know a new Jervis Bay was in service, would be a shame if they change her name, hope they have not with the Jervis Bay history.

JimC
20th April 2008, 18:35
Hope you like this one. It was one of many things that inspired me as a boy . Truly 'iron men in an 'iron ship'.

JimC.

spongebob
18th May 2008, 23:01
I certainly hope that the name "Jervis Bay" can be retained, it has personal connections for me in as much as my father stowed away on the then almost new "Jervis Bay" in 1924 when she was berthed in the Brisbane River.
He was then a broke, homesick young Londoner who needed to get home and after giving himself up after a day out to sea he worked his passage home as a deck hand, chipping, painting and scrubbing canvas hatch covers etc to be paid a shilling for the passage.
The voyage was one of the high lights of his youth and he was very saddened when his old ship was sunk in action.

Cap'n Pete
25th October 2008, 17:21
I regret to report that the m.v. Jervis Bay was renamed m.v. MSC Almeria on the 1st August 2008 at Naples, Italy.

I cannot fault MSC for wanting to rename my ship after taking it up on charter, nor can I blame the owners. However, it is my regret that the shipping industry today is run by hard-nosed people who have little appreciation of what motivates seafarers.

John Rogers
25th October 2008, 17:59
Some one is going to say "I told you this would happen"

Shame, Shame, Shame, Better put on your Tin Hat Captain Pete, (Incoming)

John.

iain mac
27th October 2008, 00:50
cant blame the owners?having been with maersk on product tankers gas tankers and container ships one thing they aint is sentimental

beejay
27th October 2008, 19:58
Capn Pete,

Wasnt the Jervis Bay the last vessel to carry the Blue Star funnel?


Brian.

Cap'n Pete
17th November 2008, 15:41
Capn Pete,

Wasnt the Jervis Bay the last vessel to carry the Blue Star funnel?


Brian.

Yes, it was. Regretfully now painted over with MSC's.

sidsal
17th November 2008, 17:30
Dear Captain Newton
I liked your letter in today's Daily Telegraph ( and the others you have had published from time to time).
Re the Jarvis Bay convoy I think I am right in saying that the first salvo fired hit the Brocklebank Manaar and she blew up spectacularly. I had the privilege of being in Brocks 1943 - 47 and have posted a thread today in response to the news of yet another ship being captured by pirates.
Good luck
Sid

John.H.Clark
17th November 2008, 18:10
I read not long ago that civilians could always receive a VC if they were under military orders at the time of the incident. It was said that three such VCs were awarded in 19th Century to people in Crimea and Boer wars . Not sure how to verify that claim.
No doubt about the ships name, please keep it
John

Chouan
17th November 2008, 18:52
Just as a matter of interest, I told the story of the Jervis Bay and the Beaverford (as well as the Arabistan on a more personal note) to all the kids I taught on 11/11/2008 as my contribution to Remembrance Day, along with a powerpoint showing the ships and photos of the Jervis Bay's officers, along with casualty lists, to a stunned silence. They were all used to the First World War stuff, but although they'd heard of the Battle of the Atlantic, seeing the faces, seeing their names, addresses, ages etc. and hearing the story showed them that they were real people.
They, at least, might remember a bit more than the usual.

Derek Roger
17th November 2008, 21:26
Just as a matter of interest, I told the story of the Jervis Bay and the Beaverford (as well as the Arabistan on a more personal note) to all the kids I taught on 11/11/2008 as my contribution to Remembrance Day, along with a powerpoint showing the ships and photos of the Jervis Bay's officers, along with casualty lists, to a stunned silence. They were all used to the First World War stuff, but although they'd heard of the Battle of the Atlantic, seeing the faces, seeing their names, addresses, ages etc. and hearing the story showed them that they were real people.
They, at least, might remember a bit more than the usual.

Well done Chouan . Did you also point to the Brocklebank vessel Maidan which did not escape with all hands lost ; perhaps you didnt know but after the Jervis bay was sunk a few of the convoy were caught ( Maidan was one of them )

If you look in my gallery you will see a picture of the Jervis Bay Memorial in Saint John which you could print to let the kids see . The plaque is in bronze and shows the vessel sinking .

Regards Derek

ps I must get a picture with the early morning sun which should be more legible .

Iain B
25th October 2009, 11:47
I remember ts from school and I also remember another poem about the Jervis Bay that started

"The Jervis Bay was a liner in the golden days of peace when ocean roads were wide and free and needed no police.... "


Iain




The Jervis Bay Goes Down

She is an old freighter
Of some fourteen thousand tons.
Standing in the roadstead
Of a port somewhere south of Singapore.
She lists a bit,
As if wearied by the typhoons of the China Seas;
By the whole gales of Tasman;
By the turbulence of wind off Borneo.
Her gear is obsolete,
Her iron skin blistered,
Pocked with rust.
Her engines are rheumatic,
And her saw-tooth screw
Will yield less fourteen knots . . .
She is the old Jervis Bay
Of Australian registry,
Resting, between tides, from her
Obscure drudgeries,
Somewhere south of Singapore.
She nods at her mooring cables,
Head bent to the dry monsoon.
The Jervis Bay is nodding,
half asleep,
When a gig draws alongside,
And there is brought aboard,
Solemnly, a flag with a blue field -
A storied ensign - emblem of
Britain's Naval Reserve.
This of itself becomes
a rousing circumstance
To one so frowsed,
so drably sleeping,
Somewhere south of Singapore.

Up the starboard ladder-way
There comes a new master,
Puffing somewhat with middle age.
He looks about, he looks above, below.
Forward, aft he peers.
His is the manner of a man
recapturing a memory.
He is Fogarty Fegan,
Called from retirement
To command the Jervis Bay.
For ten years Fogarty Fegan
Has walked in his English garden,
Watching the roses bud,
the violets bloom,
Enjoying each miracle of season
That brings white blossoms
to the hawthorn hedge.
But now he has left his barrow and his slips
To bring the storied ensign, with its blue field -
Blue as the violets of his garden -
Bringing it from afar to the old Jervis Bay.

His voice rolls against the breakwater.
His big hands grasp the teakwood rail.
He swears a bit, and finally
The Jervis Bay awakens.
Soon a battery is supplied -
A small one -
Guns of five-inch calibre.
Then, with a hundred young reservists
for her crew,
The Jervis Bay puts out to sea,
From somewhere south of Singapore.

Captain Fogarty Feegan
Has a distant rendezvous
With other old masters,
Summoned from retirement,
Called by their King
From their little farms,
From their office stools,
From their fireside chairs,
From the cities and the shires -
For threefold war - earth, sky, sea -
Beggars the world.
Ships go down . . . each day go down,
And bottoms must be had
To bear cargoes to Britain.

Now up comes the Jervis Bay,
Up from tropical waters,
Through Suez, through the
Strait of Gibraltar,
Out and across the Atlantic,
And to the Americas.
In a harbour of the North,
And with brave haste, the old hulls
Are laden to their loading lines
With cargoes for Britain.
Captain Fogarty Fegan
Listens to the rumbling of winches;
Hears the samson posts creak;
Hears the chains and blocks complain;
Harries his first Officer, Mr. Wilson,
with commands,
As things needful for the life-beat
Of England's great heart
Are stowed aboard.
"Hurry, damme, Mr. Wilson, sir!"
He shouts to his First Officer.
"We are not sleeping now,
Mr. Wilson,
Somewhere south of Singapore!"


From a Canadian bay,
From behind the fog-bank of November dawn,
A convoy line puts out;
Thirty-eight ships put out to sea
With cargoes for Britain,
A consignment to help sustain
The life-beat of England;
Goods to provision an isle
That for a thousand years
Has prized the freedom
And the dignity of Man.
The gun crews of the Jervis Bay
Sleep beside their battery.
They seem young seminars
With parka hoods cowling their heads
To keep out the cold sea-rime.
Night falls, a great and sombre hymn
The night of November fourth -
Nineteen hundred and forty years since
Our Lord -
Is an anthem of wind and
small, following sea.
The morning comes like a priest,
Upholding a golden monstrance.
The morning of the fifth
Finds the Jervis Bay and her convoy
Strung like a procession of pilgrims
against the dawn.
The ship's bell sounds;
The practice rounds are fired.
The sun is on the meridian,
And Fogarty Fegan shoots the sun
For latitude.
Eight bells again,
And Fogarty Fegan shoots the sun
For longitude.
And then, at five o'clock
The lookout calls from the crows-nest:
"Ship, sir, off the starboard bow!"
Through his glass.
Fogarty Fegan makes out smoke -
A black gargoyle in the sky -
East by southeast,
Then sights a ship, hull down.
And now a battleship
Comes boiling over the horizon.
She opens fire with heavy guns.
Captain Fogarty Fegan telegraphs
his engine room
To strain the boilers till they burst.
He bellows. curses, brings to bear
The popguns of his battery
Against the Goliath armour of the battleship.
He sends up smoke to screen the fleet.
He orders all the convoy ships
to scatter wide and fast.
Then Fogarty Fegan
Sets out alone to meet the battleship.
Five-inch guns against eleven-inch guns.
Egg-shell hull against Krupp plate.
"Damme, Mr. Wilson, sir," he shouts,
"We're not hearing mandolins today,
somewhere south of Singapore!"
This is a mad thing to do
This sea-charge of the Jervis Bay,
Yet a sky of dead admirals looks down
From the Grand Haven,
Looks down at Fogarty Fegan,
Whose senile tub
Steams bow-on for the battleship.
Nelson, Drake, Beatty, Harwood;
Yes, and the Americans:
Porter, Farragut and John Paul Jones,
All look down in wonderment.



And now a burst of shrapnel
rakes the Jervis Bay,
And tears the right arm
from the sleeve of Fogarty Fegan.
He does not fall.
He grasps the teakwood rail
with his other hand.
Masking his agony with bellowings
that rise above the guns.
Nor will he let a tourniquet
Be placed upon the stump.
He waves the stump, and Mr. Wilson knows
(And the sky of dead admirals knows)
That if a hand were there.
It would be making a great fist.
Still steaming toward the battleship,
Fogarty Fegan keeps his little guns ablast.
The eyes of the setters
And of the pointers
Grow black and blue from the recoils -
Their eardrums dead.
A salvo comes with the top roll of
the battleship,
And now the ensign -
Emblem with the blue field -
Is shot away.
Enraged, bloody, rocking on his heels,
Fogarty Fegan roars
"Hoist another ensign, damme, Mr. Wilson, sir!
Hoist another flag,
That we may fight like Englishmen!"
A boatswain procures a flag
from the locker -
A flag used for the burial of the dead at sea.
"Here, sir," he cries,
As to a brace he bends
The Banner of England.

The Jervis Bay, ablaze from stern to bow,
At dusk, still fires her puny guns,
And will not change her course.
Salvos from turrets,
Guns three-over-three,
Make great geysers grow about
The old ship's wake.
But still her guns give voice.
And now she's struck below the water-line.
Her boilers go.
The Jervis Bay begins to settle by the stern.
Yet, sinking, still she faces her antagonist.
Then the waters begin to close over her.
The waters close over Fogarty Fegan,
And over the flag
That once was used for burials at sea.
And now night spreads its shroud.

Of thirty-eight ships in the convoy,
Twenty-nine are saved,
Their cargoes saved,
To help sustain the life-beat of England,
While from the sky dead admirals look on,
And claim Captain Fogarty Fegan for their own.

The Jervis Bay goes down -
Goes down as no mere casualty of storm,
To rust out, fathoms deep, in common grave
With sisters unremembered by the years.
The Jervis Bay - of Australian registry,
From somewhere south of Singapore -
Goes down in the history
Of an Isle that for a thousand years
Has prized the freedom
And the dignity of Man.

Gene Fowler, 1941.

Walter_Snook
22nd January 2011, 05:32
An iconic British ship, I think she has three other sisters in her class?