HMS or is it H.M.S.

non descript
17th August 2006, 22:12
I wonder if, as a member of the Merchant Service, I may ask a question of the Senior Service. There are quite a few photographs of Royal Naval ships which are given the title, for example, HMS Coventry, but others spell it is H.M.S. Coventry. I believe the former is correct, but is anyone able to give a definitive ruling on this point please.

Fairfield
17th August 2006, 22:53
I think either is acceptable but if correct punctuation is to be applied then it should indeed be H.M.S. The same applies to M.V.,S.S., R.M.S., I suppose. Over the years punctuation has changed, sometimes not for the better especially the apostrophe but that/s another thread to be started!

Hugh MacLean
17th August 2006, 23:09
I think the former is certainly the way it is written now. I tend to agree with Paul when he mentions that punctuation has changed over the years and the full stops dropped.

Rgds

non descript
18th August 2006, 12:16
Thank you gentlemen for your comments, that seems to make a fair conclusion and given modern trends we will opt for HMS in the same way as we have SS and other abbreviations. As for the missing and or misuse of the apostrophe, that is indeed a whole new ball game. (EEK)

PS. Thereís a belief in some quarters that the Apostrophe Tax, which was first introduced in Eastern Europe, is still active; thereíll be hell to pay if heíll see this comment in its new form, rather than if itís left out...... (*))

john shaw
18th August 2006, 14:30
My pet h8s (theirs one,oops two now) are people who abbreviate in txt langwij (3)(4)when not txting(5) and cannot use the krect (6) there/their,where/wear (7,8), let alone the current fad for pluralising incorrectly with apostrophes eg potato's,special offer's etc-- punctuation and spelling appear to be totally random these days. Audition for "Grumpy Old Men" over. (*))

K urgess
18th August 2006, 14:38
My son was amazed that I could use street texting shorthand being a grumpy old man an' all.
Hasn't anyone who ever heard of speedwriting (miss out the vowels).

Show me a sparkie and I'll sow you an expert texter.
Tks OM fr QSO GN .-.-. (K)

mclean
18th August 2006, 21:08
I have a small pennant from the battleship King George V, Presented to me in 1943, (as a two year old) whilst she was anchored off Bangor Bay,Nth. Ireland. To the right of the crest, the name appears as H.M.S. King George V. Regards Colin

jocksenior
18th August 2006, 22:02
What gets up my nose is the "intelligent" commentators and reporters who insist on putting THE before HMS. During the Trafalgar celebrations every one said THE HMS Victory it's either THE Victory or HMS Victory.

Gulpers
19th August 2006, 11:47
What gets up my nose is the "intelligent" commentators and reporters who insist on putting THE before HMS. During the Trafalgar celebrations every one said THE HMS Victory it's either THE Victory or HMS Victory.
Jock,
Agree with your sentiment however, I was lead to believe that (using your example) she would be either HMS Victory or Victory but never The Victory. (?HUH)

Santos
19th August 2006, 20:40
Ray,

I think more often than not when a ship is refered to as ' the ' something or other, the person is being " familiar " rather than " correct ". ie When someone asks , What ship is that ? and you turn around and say ' OH its the Victory or OH its the Cutty Sark.

Its a bit like the wrong use of the word ' boat ' as against ship. In my day, we often used the word ' boat ' as a term of endearment or of familiararity, eg Its a Harrison Boat, or its a Lamport Boat or more famously ' Its a Skin Boat ' ( Banana Boat )

That kind of use of the words was normally used by seamen talking to their own kind, and may probably have been wrongly interpreted and used by shoreside people trying to impress with their knowledge.

Kind regards,

Chris.

Gulpers
20th August 2006, 00:23
Chris,
Thanks for the comment. Must just be me then! I'm quite happy with the colloquial use of terms and often use "boat" myself when, for example, referring to container ships as "box boats."
Ships are given names and should be called by that name!
How would you react to being called "The Chris" or maybe that well known stadium in your area should be called "The Anfield"?
Ah well, each to their own! (Thumb)
Cheers,

King Ratt
20th August 2006, 00:37
For Fubar--if you wants some sparkie nostalgia try this website and don't forget your 'phones!
http://users.iconz.co.nz/rwincer/radiowav.htm

If you get really bored try this one
http://www.omnicron.com/~ford/java/NMorse.html

Have fun

di di di di di dah

K urgess
20th August 2006, 01:01
King Ratt
(Sad) (Sad)

QSL om tks

As to the second one I don't need the practice I've still got my bug key (mechanical of course) on my desk and an Atalanta in the garage. Together with the two (!) ship's bell clocks that remind me where I would rather be every half hour and the radio room clock so that I don't miss silence periods - whoops AS OM - SP Observed - Sad eh!

Unfortunately I live just too far away from Brid to be able to hear the maroons so I never got the chance. Best I could've got would be the local volunteer fire brigade but there was a waiting list and it's too late now. (Sad)
Always admired you RNLI bods. Brave men one and all. (Applause)
Cheers

Santos
20th August 2006, 21:28
OOPS was only trying to be helpful, must stop it and smack my hand. (Sad)

Gulpers
20th August 2006, 21:50
OOPS was only trying to be helpful, must stop it and smack my hand. (Sad)
Chris,
Nae problem - it's just a point that was drummed into me as a kid!
I'm still waiting to be shot down in flames by others.
All the best, (*))

non descript
20th August 2006, 22:39
Chris, Ray et al., I am grateful for all the comments - it all makes sense and certain situations give rise to certain spellings or names. There are always oddities in language and we have "The Ar_senal" whereas we do not have that use of the definite article for others teams (but we did not have The Highbury) - then there was the curiosity that we looked up at the sky and said "Oh there's a 747 and behind it is an Airbus, but wait... look there is Concorde" suggesting somehow that by using it as a singular, there was but one lone Concorde in existence ... Did you ever hear anyone say "Oh there's a Concorde" ? Very odd!

I am coming to the conclusion that modern usage allows us to use Upper Case and no full stops, with just HMS Ship being the best and most reasonable.
Kind regards
Mark

Gulpers
21st August 2006, 02:01
Chris, Ray et al., I am grateful for all the comments - it all makes sense and certain situations give rise to certain spellings or names. There are always oddities in language and we have "The Ar_senal" whereas we do not have that use of the definite article for others teams (but we did not have The Highbury) - then there was the curiosity that we looked up at the sky and said "Oh there's a 747 and behind it is an Airbus, but wait... look there is Concorde" suggesting somehow that by using it as a singular, there was but one lone Concorde in existence ... Did you ever hear anyone say "Oh there's a Concorde" ? Very odd!

I am coming to the conclusion that modern usage allows us to use Upper Case and no full stops, with just HMS Ship being the best and most reasonable.
Kind regards
Mark
You're to blame Mark - you started all this! (*))

highlandway99
22nd August 2006, 16:20
I wonder if, as a member of the Merchant Service, I may ask a question of the Senior Service. There are quite a few photographs of Royal Naval ships which are given the title, for example, HMS Coventry, but others spell it is H.M.S. Coventry. I believe the former is correct, but is anyone able to give a definitive ruling on this point please.
I BELIEVE THE FORMER TO BE CORRECT,AND THE LATTER TO BE USED WHEN ON SAILORS CAP RIBBONS

non descript
22nd August 2006, 18:45
Highlandway, I am grateful to you, that seems very much the case.

rickles23
23rd April 2007, 08:05
I am designing a new web site and I need to know the proper format for the name of Royal Navy ships.

Is it HMS or H.M.S.?

Regards

Jeffers
23rd April 2007, 10:27
The Royal Navy's own web site uses HMS, so that would appear to be the correct usage.
Having said that, my book of English Grammar states that the full stop should be used wherever titles are shortened, so perhaps it's another case of accepted usage now being different to traditional grammar rules. So the full stop is now getting the kind of abuse usually reserved for the poor apostrophe!(Cloud)

rickles23
23rd April 2007, 14:09
Thanks guys, I might use HMS as it is faster and looks a wee bit tidier.

Regards

bobs
23rd April 2007, 16:25
As a former magazine editor I would advise you that you should adopt a "house style" for your website, by which you plan and lay down in advance how you are going to tackle little problems like this one of deciding whether to use points between initials, or for instance, whether you are going to used "ised" or "ized" in words with such a suffix. Both are correct but "ized" tends more towards American usage of the English language. "Two great nations separated by a common language!" - as they say.

Once you have drawn up your house-style sheet, stick to it. As to using HMS or H.M.S., please yourself; but HMS is quicker to type. You should also decide whether you are going to put ship names in italics, capitals, inside quotation marks or just having a Capital letter. My advice would be "keep it simple".

BlythSpirit
23rd April 2007, 17:47
As a former magazine editor I would advise you that you should adopt a "house style" for your website, by which you plan and lay down in advance how you are going to tackle little problems like this one of deciding whether to use points between initials, or for instance, whether you are going to used "ised" or "ized" in words with such a suffix. Both are correct but "ized" tends more towards American usage of the English language. "Two great nations separated by a common language!" - as they say.


Interesting point bobs - I spent many a long year writing operating manuals for refineries and gas plants, if I wrote them in the States I got a bollocking for using English english, and guess what happened when I wrote them in London - yeh right " Stop using americanisms!" I couldn't win - especially as the plants were in the Middle East anyway.

Brian Twyman
23rd April 2007, 19:39
In Service writing, the name of the ship is always written in capitals !

non descript
23rd April 2007, 19:46
rickles23 - to keep it all in one place, I have deleted my earlier comment and now merged the two threads.

rickles23
24th April 2007, 08:13
I had a good look on the internet and it seems that HMS is used on the ship's side without the full stops and the name in capitals.

So how about HMS PRINS ALBERT?

Also it would save having to underline the ships name to make it stand out in the text.

It normally takes me a few weeks to get the look of the site right, then comes the style of text and the style of the photo albums.

With the HMS PRINS ALBERT website I have decided on a book/album format as most of the original wartime crew kept their photographs and newspaper cuttings in one.

Regards
24 04 07
16.13hrs.

Split
24th April 2007, 11:26
I would have thought that, by logic, it would be HMS ie. "Her Majesty's Ship" which is a phrase, not initials as in a person's name

Split

rickles23
26th April 2007, 09:07
Unfortunatly the words Logic and Royal Navy do not belong in the same sentence.

Photo enclosed shows a WW2 cap clearly marked H.M.S. and the same with a letter head of the same period.

I have sent an email to the Royal Navy but as yet received no reply.

Although interestingly on the Royal Navy's website they use HMS Daring, no full stops and capital letter at the beginning of the name.

As an aside if you go to http://www.navynews.co.uk/cutaway.asp there is a good cutaway desktop picture for downloading.

Regards...(Scribe)

cboots
26th April 2007, 09:43
As a merchant seaman from 1965 to 1979, and I am talking ordinary cargo vessels, not passenger boats, I can assure everyone that I never heard any other seaman refer to a ship without using the definite article. The practice of not using "the" before the name of a merchant ship is a practice begged, borrowed or stolen from the navy, and it is one that I never heard in my entire seagoing career. Frankly if I had heard it I think I would have thought you had some kind of speech impediment. It is a practice that seems to have crept in in recent times and it is all pervading; write a letter to "Ships Monthly" using the definite article and they will edit it out. It drives me nuts and I consider it to be either ignorance or affectation. As to the HMS/H.M.S. thing I think the latter is probably strictly correct, but like many other types of abreviation the full stops just get left out. And whilst I've got the chance to be good and grumpy, the other thing that I can't stand is the use of nouns as verbs, and that is an Americanism and it is spreading like a plague of locust. Hummmph!
CBoots

bobs
26th April 2007, 11:20
Maybe we should enjoy this debate while we can. What, with political correctness and the growing significance of ships' IMO Numbers, it could be that, in 50 years' time our successors will be going all nostalgic for the days they sailed on the old 9345678 and how that was a much better ship than the 9876543 that they sailed on next!
Another pedantic point on presenting Royal Navy ships' names in print, though. Let's say the name of the ship in question is Rustbucket. Normally the name should be differentiated from the rest of the text by being shown as "Rustbucket", Rustbucket (in italics) or RUSTBUCKET, whichever one you choose as your 'house-style'. It could be argued that HMS (or H.M.S.) is not actually part of the ship's name so, I would argue - and it's the way I used to do it - it should be HMS Rustbucket, with only the actual name in italics or in quotes. I would always try to steer clear of using capitals but that's just my prejudice.

Split
26th April 2007, 22:12
(A) Yes, I must be getting old and don't remember. M.N., also, has full stops plus all the army regiments names, too. Anway, it does't seem logical to me sixty years later!

Regards Split

rickles23
9th May 2007, 15:08
The Royal Navy has just replied to my email which I sent 24 April 2007.

"Technically, as an abbreviation it should be H.M.S. However common usage, even in the Royal Navy omits the dots."

Then I was directed to their own website where both versions are used!

So I'm going with HMS PRINS ALBERT, all in capitals and no full stops...(Thumb)