Aaron Hubert Trawler

Kerbtrawler
30th September 2006, 22:20
The Aaron Hubert was renamed Graffoe and later River Earn
the official Number was 128744
Built by J Fullerton & Co Paisley in 1919

She was involved in both World wars
The original owners were G E Paton, homeport Granton.

I'm looking for the Port Reg,Admiralty Pennant along with any other information

Thanks

Gavin Gait
1st October 2006, 22:02
Here's the info i've got on her.

She was one of the Admirality Standard design Strath class.

Built in 1919 by Fullerton's but instead of being finished as a minesweeper she was finished as a fishing vessel. Delivered 19th February 1919. Renamed Grafoe when aquired by Stringer Sea Fishing Company of Boston , Lincs. Admirality Number 3374. Fishing registration BN 53.

I have no record of her in the second war at all , but , saying that its not impossible that she wasn't commandered during WW2.

Standard size for the class is as follows

Displacement : 311t standard , 429t deep load
Dimensions : 123ft overall , 115ft 6inch pp x 22ft beam x 12ft draft
Engine : 1 shaft reciprocating (VTE) 430 IHP
Speed : 10.5 knots

If you want to see what she would have looked like Avondee A826 (http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5754/cat/500/ppuser/1937).

Davie

Clem
2nd October 2006, 09:40
Hi Trevor, to add to Davie's last post, I've come up with this so far. I'm sure I've seen a photo of the trawler 'Graffoe' at one time so, I'll keep my eyes open.

Still looking at the Sleight's list for you.

Regards

Clem

Official Number: 128774
Port of Registry:
Number:
Name: River Earn
Callsign:
Type: Steam Trawler
Built: 02/19
By: J. Fullerton & Co. Paisley
Gross Tonnage: 202
Net Tonnage: 88
Length: 115.6 ft.
Beam: 22.1 ft.
Draught: 12.1 ft.
(Note: Measurements are in Feet and Tenths of Feet)
Engines: T 3cy 57 RHP
By: Fleming & Ferguson Ltd. Paisley
Owner: ’37 G.G. Paton (Granton)
Manager:
Comments: ex. Graffoe; ex. Aaron Hubert
Fate: Bombed / Sunk by Aircraft 19/12/39; 58:30 N x 02:00 E

Kerbtrawler
2nd October 2006, 13:43
Thanks lads

all very good info

Clem if you do come across a photo that would be great

Still working on that Sleights list myself ;)

cheers

Kerbtrawler
2nd October 2006, 21:06
Here's the info i've got on her.

She was one of the Admirality Standard design Strath class.

Built in 1919 by Fullerton's but instead of being finished as a minesweeper she was finished as a fishing vessel. Delivered 19th February 1919. Renamed Grafoe when aquired by Stringer Sea Fishing Company of Boston , Lincs. Admirality Number 3374. Fishing registration BN 53.

Davie

Davie, Where did you get the Pennant number from?
The only reason for asking is that I have it as 3760

cheers

Gavin Gait
2nd October 2006, 22:35
Davie, Where did you get the Pennant number from?
The only reason for asking is that I have it as 3760

cheers

I even got it wrong too lol the number I have is 3373 and its from the book : Royal Navy Trawlers , part one Admirality Trawlers by Gerald Toghill ISBN:0-90777195-5 published by Maritime Books ( www.navybooks.com )

Davie

Clem
3rd October 2006, 00:47
Hi Trevor, Davie.

I've been searching for her pennant number but can't locate it at all.

I have River Earn as being a 'Fishing Vessel' casualty in 39/45 conflict, definitely in the Merchant Navy not Royal Navy (she hadn't been chartered or requisitioned by the Admiralty). Would this indicate the pennant number was assigned to Aaron Hubert, sometime after 1919?

Clem

Roger Griffiths
3rd October 2006, 10:32
Hello,
According to Admiralty Trawlers and Drifters, 1916 - 1921 Director of Naval Construction, Admiralty, Copy No. 54. AARON HUBERT was completed as a fishing vessel.
A lot of the WW1 surplus trawlers were placed en-bloc on the London register and were subsequently disposed of in the early 20's. I have just searched the returns of London fishing vessels 1919-1923 and AARON HUBERT was not listed so I assume she was sold to Stringers straight from the shipyard. Therefor it is doubtful she carried an Admiralty pennant number.

On the 19th of December 1939 RIVER EARN, Skipper P Stevens, 9 crew and 3 survivors from the Danish vessel BOGO were fishing near May Island when around 9 am they were attacked by a single aircraft. After dropping several bombs some of which were dud the RIVER EARN was sunk and the 13 men took to the lifeboat. After 36 hours they were picked up by the Swedish steamer TRITON and landed at Koppervik, Norway, returning home via Bergen.

Roger

Clem
3rd October 2006, 13:05
Great stuff Roger, nice to know the crew survived.

Clem

Kerbtrawler
3rd October 2006, 17:11
Roger,
thanks for clearing that up
consider the database dully amended

cheers

Hawkeye
10th October 2006, 15:36
Hi Trevor
I'm afraid I have to throw in spanner in the works here. I also have the Royal Navy Trawlers by Gerald Toghill.
The Aaron Hubert is a Strath class Trawler (as someone has already stated).
She was built in 1919 by Fullerton at Paisey and delivered on the 19th Feb. She had the Admiralty no of 3373. She was sold to Stringer's SFC, Boston, renamed Grafoe. Port No: BN 53. This is on page 168.
Here is the spanner: There is no more about the ship in this book.
You said in the thread that she renamed River Earn.
There is a River Earn in the book, but not under Aaron Hubert. She was built as the James Feagan, another Strath class Trawler. Her Admiralty No is 3760, (a number which has already come up in a previous reply). Built by Montrose SB, Montrose in 1919, delivered on 17th December. Sold to GG Paton of Glasgow and renamed River Earn, Port No: GN 36. This ship is on page 175 in the book. There are no details of her history after that.
A mistake has been made somewhere, the question is where? is it your own source or Gerald's source, which is now in print?
Regards
Karl

Clem
10th October 2006, 16:41
Hi Karl, there's a rabbit off somewhere. My post #3 is taken, in the main, from Lloyd's 1937/38 "River Earn, ex. Graffoe, ex. Aaron Hubert"

However can, Aaron Hubert & James Feagan, both have possibly been renamed River Earn at different times?

Regards

Clem

Kerbtrawler
10th October 2006, 16:53
Hi karl, Clem

I will re look at all of the information I have on this vessel and recheck - as you say somewhere either I've gone adrift or there has been a typo

Just another vessel to be clarified - happy days

Kerbtrawler
10th October 2006, 21:42
OK
I have checked and rechecked various sources here is what I have found

JAMES FEAGAN Renamed RIVER EARN ( Toghill )
Port Reg GN 36 ( from previous posts )
Built 1919 @ Montrose SB ( Miramar ship index )
Yard No 83 (Miramar ship index )
Admiralty Pennant 3760 (according to Colledge - ships of the RN Vol 2)
Official Number 135790 ( miramar ship index )
Lost 19/12/1939 (according to Lloyds war losses Vol 1 )
Bombed by aircraft all crew saved whilst on trip from Granton to fishing grounds
Renaming also shown by Colledge Vol 2 ships of the RN

And Now this is where it goes wrong thanks to LLOYDS

According to them (plimsoll website ) 1935
Lloyds clearly shows the RIVER EARN ex Graffoe ex Aaron Hubert with the wrong official number of 128774
Again in 1939 it shows the same with the ship being lost

AARON HUBERT Renamed GRAFOE ( Toghill )
Port Reg BN 53 ( previous posts )
Built 1919 @ Paisley by Fullerton as a Strath Class BUT finished as a Fishing Trawler was Completed 19/02/1919 Yard no 260 ( miramar ship index )
Pennant No 3373 ( Toghill ) + WW1 Website
Official No 128774 ( miramar ship index )
According to Colledge Vol 2 the name was also spelt GRAFFOE

Found a different GRAFFOE official No 99681 built 1892 lost 25/01/1903

So it would appear after all of the above there were two seperate ships not one with all of the names.

Just goes to show that you have to cross reference when ever possible

Hope this is of use to others and not only myself

Clem
10th October 2006, 23:10
Aye, there you go, learn something every day!

So, which ship of the two are you interested in then Trevor? :)

Roger Griffiths
11th October 2006, 00:36
Hi Trevor
I'm afraid I have to throw in spanner in the works here. I also have the Royal Navy Trawlers by Gerald Toghill.
The Aaron Hubert is a Strath class Trawler (as someone has already stated).
She was built in 1919 by Fullerton at Paisey and delivered on the 19th Feb. She had the Admiralty no of 3373. She was sold to Stringer's SFC, Boston, renamed Grafoe. Port No: BN 53. This is on page 168.
Here is the spanner: There is no more about the ship in this book.
You said in the thread that she renamed River Earn.
There is a River Earn in the book, but not under Aaron Hubert. She was built as the James Feagan, another Strath class Trawler. Her Admiralty No is 3760, (a number which has already come up in a previous reply). Built by Montrose SB, Montrose in 1919, delivered on 17th December. Sold to GG Paton of Glasgow and renamed River Earn, Port No: GN 36. This ship is on page 175 in the book. There are no details of her history after that.
A mistake has been made somewhere, the question is where? is it your own source or Gerald's source, which is now in print?
Regards
Karl

Hello Karl,
Gerald Toghills Volumes are indeed an outstanding contribution to the history of trawlers which have been built for or requisitioned by the Royal Navy. The first overall detailed index on the subject.
As with any work of this magnitude there are bound to be mistakes and omissions. I have to say however that his research, particularly his references to "sold to mercantile, mercantile loss," etc. have not been researched as thoroughly as they could have been. That is not a knock, just a statement of fact and I am sure Gerald Toghill would go along with that.
My copies of the book/s have several updates which have been obtained from primary sources such as various documents in the British National Archive, the National Maritime Museum and other similar institutions. I am sure in the course of time there will be more alterations to be made.
No one single work can be regarded as THE BIBLE that is why forums like this continue to thrive because there are so many unanswered questions.
If you need copies of the primary documents that I have quoted from concerning this thread, please feel free to e-mail me.

regards
Roger

Steve Farrow
11th October 2006, 09:32
Hi Roger,
I also have the two Toghill books and I must agree with all that you say. These are excellent reference books which do have the odd error, so if possible it is always better to cross refernce if possible. I had a commission to paint the WILLIAM BRADY ( Castle Class ) in her WW2 roll, and looking through the index in volume 2, she didn't exist. It was in fact printed as WILLIAM BODY........the same vessel. She finished her days fishing out of Grimsby as the TOKIO for H. L. Taylor's from 1951-61.
Regards
Steve

Kerbtrawler
11th October 2006, 12:44
Hi Clem it was the River Earn that started all of this

cheers

Roger Griffiths
13th October 2006, 23:02
OK
I have checked and rechecked various sources here is what I have found

JAMES FEAGAN Renamed RIVER EARN ( Toghill )
Port Reg GN 36 ( from previous posts )
Built 1919 @ Montrose SB ( Miramar ship index )
Yard No 83 (Miramar ship index )
Admiralty Pennant 3760 (according to Colledge - ships of the RN Vol 2)
Official Number 135790 ( miramar ship index )
Lost 19/12/1939 (according to Lloyds war losses Vol 1 )
Bombed by aircraft all crew saved whilst on trip from Granton to fishing grounds
Renaming also shown by Colledge Vol 2 ships of the RN

And Now this is where it goes wrong thanks to LLOYDS

According to them (plimsoll website ) 1935
Lloyds clearly shows the RIVER EARN ex Graffoe ex Aaron Hubert with the wrong official number of 128774
Again in 1939 it shows the same with the ship being lost

AARON HUBERT Renamed GRAFOE ( Toghill )
Port Reg BN 53 ( previous posts )
Built 1919 @ Paisley by Fullerton as a Strath Class BUT finished as a Fishing Trawler was Completed 19/02/1919 Yard no 260 ( miramar ship index )
Pennant No 3373 ( Toghill ) + WW1 Website
Official No 128774 ( miramar ship index )
According to Colledge Vol 2 the name was also spelt GRAFFOE

Found a different GRAFFOE official No 99681 built 1892 lost 25/01/1903

So it would appear after all of the above there were two seperate ships not one with all of the names.

Just goes to show that you have to cross reference when ever possible

Hope this is of use to others and not only myself


Trevor,
I have looked into this a little further and I will go as far as to say that Lloyds register is far from wrong but the other sources --------
There are logbooks for 1939 in TNA for Official Number 128774 there is nothing for O/N 135790
I am not a betting man but my money would be on RIVER EARN being ex GRAFOE ex AARONE HUBERT

I will not be able to get to TNA for a few weeks due to holidays but I will take a look at BT381/50 plus anything in BT110 just to prove my point.
Could be however I will get chucky all over my face but it will not be the first time!!!

regards
Roger

Hawkeye
13th October 2006, 23:50
Hi Roger

I quite agree with you when you say about small mistakes, etc, creeping into books. One of my hobbies is Shipping Reasearch and I have found differences in books myself over the years. This is the first time I have looked at Trawlers and only did so to answer two questions which popped in the forums, both about Trawlers in the RN. I realised that I had access to possible answers, quoted in the only books I have on them. My books are at home, I only take a couple to read or research when onboard ship. Also I only have internet access at work at the moment. The subject now has me gripped, but I'm currently researching American Warships at the moment, so it may have to wait a bit.
Regards
Karl

Kerbtrawler
14th October 2006, 16:02
Hi Roger, karl

That would be great, I have the same problem about getting to the TNA but through work obligations, Very frustrating as I am only 50 mins away.

I take on board (no pun intended) about only having access to books that may contain errors.
As you quite rightly state it will be well worth seeking further information from the TNA.

If I get a window in my schedule I will have a look at the records you have mentioned and report back.

Thanks for the interest

cheers

Clem
14th October 2006, 18:34
Hi Trevor, to further muddy the waters. I have a reference to:

FD419 River Earn; S.T. built Montrose 1919; gross 217; length 112ft. owner River S. F. Co. Ltd. (formerly Graffoe, sold to Spain as Marcelina de Ciriza.)

Regards

Clem

Kerbtrawler
14th October 2006, 18:42
Hi Clem
You just beat me to that particular reference, Pity it doesn't say when sold to Spain!!!

Cheers

Clem
14th October 2006, 18:57
Trevor it does appear, to me, that there were two vessels of this name. I would suppose that after ex. Aaron Hubert's sinking, in Dec. 39, the name 'River Earn' was re-used by James Feagan?

I'll keep posting any references I can find.

By the way, that photo of Graffoe, I found it!

Sorry though, she was a cargo steamship (S.S. Graffoe, PoR Grimsby, ON 99681, gross 2,996 tons, built 1892 at West Hartlepool, sank 25/01/03 off Pembrokeshire), not the one you are looking for.

Best Wishes

Clem


R.I.P. the Captain and two other crew of S.S. Graffoe

Roger Griffiths
14th October 2006, 21:54
Hello.
I have just looked at the returns of Fleetwood fishing vessels 1923 to 1928. A primary source.
Low and behold what vessel has the port number FD419. Yes, got in one.
RIVER EARN. O/N 135990 on the FD reg.30/11/1922? sold to foreigners (Spain ?) 30/11/1925? The hand writing is very unclear.
To sort this enigma, we have to determine if the ARRON HUBERT bore the O/N135990 or 128774.
My money is still on 128774

regards
Roger

PS if anyone wants a copy of the Fleetwood document, feel free.

Clem
14th October 2006, 22:16
Hello.
I have just looked at the returns of Fleetwood fishing vessels 1923 to 1928. A primary source.
Low and behold what vessel has the port number FD419. Yes, got in one.
RIVER EARN. O/N 135990 on the FD reg.30/11/1922? sold to foreigners (Spain ?) 30/11/1925? The hand writing is very unclear.
To sort this enigma, we have to determine if the ARRON HUBERT bore the O/N135990 or 128774.
My money is still on 128774

regards
Roger

PS if anyone wants a copy of the Fleetwood document, feel free.

Hi Roger, I agree, 128774 seems to be the one. By then, Aaron Hubert was likely to have been Graffoe, probably took up the name 'River Earn' after 135990 went to Spanish owners.

Great thread!

Kerbtrawler
15th October 2006, 22:11
Nice detective work.......

Looks like its definately a trip to the TNA to get to the bottom of the official number allocation, at the end of the day thats the only unique id given throughout the ships life and cannot be re issued.

Roger I would be very interested in seeing the Information


Thanks both of you

Roger Griffiths
16th October 2006, 17:52
Hello Again,
I could not wait to go to TNA so I ordered the documents via their Digital Express service
There are 18 pages in total but the 10 I obtained confirm RIVER EARN and GRAFFOE are the same vessel with the O/N128774
Thinking about it AARON HUBERT was the name given to the vessel by the RN.
(I believe all the names of WW1 Admiralty Trawlers were taken from the officers and crews of VICTORY and ROYAL SOVEREIGN at Trafalgar)
so if she was brought direct from the shipyard her first official number would have been allocated as GRAFFOE. Given the entries in Lloyds I think there is little doubt that this is the history of AARON HUBERT.
She was transfered to Granton in 1925 so as Clem suggests it was probably after 135990 went to Spain. I know some Fleetwood sources give the previous name of RIVER EARN FD419 as GRAFFOE but I am working on this and will post if I come up with anything.
Below is the link for the Registration documents. I don't know if it will work but if not just mail me and I'll send copies

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/filestore/default.asp?dir=digitalexpress%2fd16-10-2006_t12-12-56-8040201

regards
Roger

Clem
16th October 2006, 18:58
Great stuff Roger, I'm sure Trevor will be made up.

The Graffoe's name change to River Earn didn't occour until 25/03/31 (image 2), so she would have been working as Graffoe, in Granton from 11/09/25 (image10), for 6 years. Long after 135990 went to Spain on 30/10/25.

There is a ref. (image 9) to her callsign. Being GZSX

Regards

Clem

Roger Griffiths
17th October 2006, 01:54
Hello again,
Thanks for spotting the mistake Clem. We ALL make them.
This thread is a classic case of the same confused information being past on in books and other sources and becomeing the accepted fact. The importance of looking at as many primary sources as possible cannot be overemphasised.
It seems that the errors was compounded by the fact that both RIVER EARN's were owned at one time or another by members of the Paton family.
This what I came up with on RIVER EARN ON 135790.

RIVER EARN
Ad.No. 3760. O.N. 135790. 215g (217g) 105n 112.0 x 22.2 x 12.0 feet
T.3-cyl by W. Beardmore & Co Ltd, Glasgow

1919: Launched by Montrose Shipbuilding Co Ltd, Montrose (Yd.No.83)
(“Strath” class) for The Admiralty as James Feagan. 17.12.1919:
Completed as a fishing vessel for Montrose Fishing Co Ltd, Aberdeen
(Charles F. Paton, Glasgow, manager) as River Earn (A??). 1922: Sold
to The River Steam Fishing Co Ltd, Fleetwood (H. Blackburn, manager).
Registered at Fleetwood (FD419). 1925: Sold to A. Ciriza, San
Sebastian, Spain. Renamed Marcelina de Ciriza. Registered at San
Sebastian. 1946: Sold to Miguel Ojeda Perez, San Sebastian. Renamed
Costa Montanesa. post 1950: Sold to Constantino Castro Barreneches,
Gijon. 1970?: Sold for demolition

Regards
Roger

Clem
17th October 2006, 15:12
That seems to have sorted things out, it's been a 'riveting' thread so far.

Can anyone come up with Aaron Hubert's port reg. no. when she was working out of Granton as both Graffoe and River Earn?

All the best

Clem

Roger Griffiths
17th October 2006, 17:53
Hello Clem,
Yes a very interesting thread. It could be O/N 128774 Granton port number was GN36. The only way to find out for sure is to look at her logbooks. The returns of Fishing vessels Granton would also tell us but unfortunatly there are no records in this series for the time scale in question.
That said I am not happy with the first part of the information I posted yesterday in connection with O/N 135790 pre Fleetwood career.

1919: Launched by Montrose Shipbuilding Co Ltd, Montrose (Yd.No.83) OK no problem with that.

Completed as a fishing vessel for Montrose Fishing Co Ltd, Aberdeen
(Charles F. Paton, Glasgow, manager) as River Earn (A??). I think Montrose Fishing co ltd could be a corruption of her builders name and I think she may have fished out of Granton not Aberdeen and her port number was GN36 as per Toghill.
Looks like more business for TNA!

Roger

Kerbtrawler
19th October 2006, 20:16
I go away for a few days and look what happens........

I cannot beleive the amount of information that has been unearthed by you

I had no idea that when starting this thread it would turn up so much information.

my hat is of to the both of you, in particular Roger, For getting to the TNA before me LOL

I will keep digging as and when time permits but I don't expect to be able to add much to that that has already been shown here in this thread


Once again thanks both of you

Roger Griffiths
22nd November 2006, 00:38
Hello Clem,
Yes a very interesting thread. It could be O/N 128774 Granton port number was GN36. The only way to find out for sure is to look at her logbooks. The returns of Fishing vessels Granton would also tell us but unfortunatly there are no records in this series for the time scale in question.
That said I am not happy with the first part of the information I posted yesterday in connection with O/N 135790 pre Fleetwood career.

1919: Launched by Montrose Shipbuilding Co Ltd, Montrose (Yd.No.83) OK no problem with that.

Completed as a fishing vessel for Montrose Fishing Co Ltd, Aberdeen
(Charles F. Paton, Glasgow, manager) as River Earn (A??). I think Montrose Fishing co ltd could be a corruption of her builders name and I think she may have fished out of Granton not Aberdeen and her port number was GN36 as per Toghill.
Looks like more business for TNA!

Roger

Finally tracked this one down.
Registered in Montrose 22/Dec/1919 Port number ME 57. To Fleetwood 14/Nov/1922

Roger