Cochranes building list.

birgir
1st November 2006, 19:28
I wonder if anyone who frequents this website has access to data about the yard numbers of Cochranes and Son of Selby.

The question precisely is why two trawlers, built for Icelandic owner "Kveldulfur Ltd." in 1920, have no yard number in Lloyds 1926.

Also, is there any hope that other trawler builders will be covered in similar fashion as the excellent Cook Welton & Gemmell book by Thompson & Co.

Birgir Thorisson

Roger Griffiths
2nd November 2006, 11:15
Hello Birgar,
As far as I know there no online database specifically for Cochrane built vessels. The Mirimar Ship index has details of some British trawlers built by Cochranes including their yard number.
http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/
Can you give us the name of the vessels you are interested in.
I have heard rumours about a book but have yet to see anything in print.

regards
Roger

treeve
2nd November 2006, 12:48
Two Cochranes from my webpages on WH Podd....

1952 LORD WENLOCK LT1143
Built in 1911 by Cochrane & Son, Selby.
1952 Purchased by WH Podd's
1954 Transferred to Inshore Trawlers Ltd.
1961 Sold to Aberdeen
1963 Sold to Gamashie Fishing & Marketing Ltd, Accra, Ghana.
1965 Reported total loss.

1953 EAGER Steel Drifter trawler, 102 grt, 46nt
Built 1912 Cochrane, Selby for S. G. Alerton.
88 ft x 19 ft x 9 ft.
Steam engine triple 35hp, Cochrane
1933 Part ownership, transferred to Frederick Spashett.
1945 Sold to Bay Fisheries, Fleetwood.
1947 Sold to H. B. Roberts, Lowestoft.
1951 Sold to Eager Fishing Co Ltd, Lowestoft.
1953 Sold to W. H. Podd Ltd, Lowestoft.
1953 Transferred to Diesel Trawlers Ltd, Lowestoft.
1954 Steam engine replace by 300hp AKD diesel.
1963 Sold to Gamashie Fishing & Marketing Ltd, Accra, Ghana.

hulltrawler
2nd November 2006, 18:40
kveldulfur Cochrane & Sons Ltd Yard No 693 - 360 tons

In thew 1920 Lloyd 2 Appendix

chris

birgir
2nd November 2006, 21:10
kveldulfur Cochrane & Sons Ltd Yard No 693 - 360 tons

In thew 1920 Lloyd 2 Appendix

chris

Hi.

The ships in question wers St. Skallagrimur and St. Thorolfur, both 403 tons, 150' long,

The company Kveldulfur never had a trawler of that name. To the ship in the appendix 1920 is almost certainly the Egill Skallagrimsson, which Lloyds registered for some reason as 367 brt, while the Icelandic registration was 306 brt.

It is noteworthy that the 150“ design of Skallagrimur and Thorolvur was very good, but only one half-sister was built, the Uranus of Le Havre.

Birgir

birgir
2nd November 2006, 21:29
I just checked the miramarlist.

They do have the Skallagrimur with the yard number 693. So these ships must have been ordered about 1916.

Thanks, Birgir.

hulltrawler
2nd November 2006, 21:52
Just to cofuse it a bit more
Skallagrimur She is listed in the 1920 Appendix 2 but no Yard No - 409 tons
Kveldulfur - 1920 appendix 2 Yard 693
No listing for Thorolfur / ?

I have uploaded page on link below if you want to take a look

http://www.kokand.karoo.net/1920.jpg

There was a book with part listing of all Earls vessels built with Yard No`s by Arthur Credland Hull Maritime Museum. Also there is a list by name and yard no of Smiths Dock vessels.
chris

hulltrawler
2nd November 2006, 21:56
Egill Skallagrimsson, is listed as Yard no 633
chris

birgir
3rd November 2006, 00:48
Things get weirder. Both Skallagrímur and Þórólfur, (Thorolfur in normal transliteration, but in the 1920 Lloyds as Porolfur) are listed without yard numbers, but the Kveldulfur 360 brt is listed as 693. Also Egill Skallagrimsson is correctly listed 663 (and 312 brt).
GW&G did occacionally list more than one ship under one yard no. Could yard numbers be assigned after the fact.
The way I am heading is; At end of WW1 there was a great demand for building space. So if Kveldulfur jumped to the front of the line, I figure it cost, but these 150´ships cost the same or even less than 4 140' built at the same time (yard numbers 734-7)

Where is it possible to get the Smiths Dock list? (I have the Earles list).

Birgir

Roger Griffiths
3rd November 2006, 23:13
Hello Birgir,
I understand that the original line plans of all the vessels built by Cochranes, 1884-1937 and 1950-55 are lodged in the British National Maritime Museum.
Maybe an E-mail to them could shed some light.

plansandphotos@nmm.ac.uk

Roger

hulltrawler
4th November 2006, 00:14
hi birgar
will get back to you in few days about smiths dock yard no`s
chris

raf1387
25th January 2007, 21:13
I have a copy of Cochranes builders book from Yard No.1 in 1884 until Yard No.1574 in1977. If I can help in any way let me know.

birgir
27th January 2007, 22:01
Hi raf of the middle ages

What kind of information is contained in this Cochranes builders book?

Regards,

Birgir Thorisson

Roger Griffiths
27th January 2007, 22:13
Hello raf1387,
Thank you for your kind offer. Details of Cochrane built vessels are always of interest.
To echo Birgir's post. Is there any way you can post a pic of a sample page, say from the 1930's? Just so we can see what kind of information it contains.
Many thanks.
regards
Roger

stewart126
6th June 2008, 15:28
is it poss for you to email me a list that you have for Cochrane's raf

aavh
6th June 2008, 19:43
Birgir, A copy of Smiths Dock South Bank and some history can be found here.
http://www.teesbuiltships.co.uk/
Andy

stewart126
7th July 2009, 13:06
List of Cochrane vessel

Soon to be placed on the web as www.cochranesshipbuilders.co.uk
new list updated a lot more than this copy

Roger Griffiths
7th July 2009, 19:22
List of Cochrane vessel

Soon to be placed on the web as www.cochranesshipbuilders.co.uk
new list updated a lot more than this copy

Thanks for the update

regards
Roger

gkh151
8th July 2009, 22:40
This may be of interest.

I picked up a copy of bygones today entitled Trawler years and there is an article about Doigs shipyard which they say was taken over by Ross group in 1963. It goes on to say that they already owned Cochraneand son of Selby where they built the bird class and the cat class. Doigs was used to lengthen the K class where the fishroom was lengthend by 23ft 6in. In another article also in the copy of bygones it mentions the building of the Ross Daring built 1963 Ross Dainty 1964 and Ross Delight 1965 all built at Cochranes.

Hope this is of interest.

Graham

gkh151
8th July 2009, 22:54
Done some further reading of Bygones

Alafoss built Chocranes 1929 For Consolidated fisheries GY160 length140 ft 357 gross tons requisitioned by the admiralty 1939 until 1946 renumbered GY 307 and sent to belgium in 1957.

Graham

birgir
9th July 2009, 01:03
Stewart 126.

I had a look at the list you posted, and emailed an addendum and correction on some icelandic trawlers, but didn“t notice that it is an out of date example, so some of them may be superfluous. Hope you receive the email, there was a delivery failure at the first attempt.

Look forward to the definite version.

Birgir Thorisson

PS. I emailed it to the address contained within it, abbey@etc, which I hope is the correct one.

gil mayes
9th July 2009, 10:29
Without getting too deeply into this, what I am sure will prove to be a somewhat controversial list. ALAFOSS (160980) was sold to The Admiralty in June 1939 for £10250. She was bought back by Consols in January 1946, whether via Hull Ice Co Ltd, is not clear (does anyone know?). She was sold to Jacq Bakker for breaking and arrived Bruges 4 Dec 1956 from Grimsby.
Yard Number 1. ALBION of YORK(129249) was a twin screw steam lighter.
Gil.

gil mayes
9th July 2009, 10:47
Birgir
As always greatly valuing your contributions, would it be possible for me to also have a list of addendum and corrections to the Icelandic vessels in Graham's list?
Gil.

gkh151
9th July 2009, 19:49
Hi Gil

According to the article in bygones the Admiralty aquired the Alafoss in october 1939 and returned to Consol's in July 1946 and registered GY 307 and they go on to say it was february 1957 when she went to belgium.

There are two photo's of her one showing her with the number GY 307 one showing her without a number being displayed and they are not sure wether this was taken after being returned by the admiralty or when she was ready to be sent to belgium

birgir
9th July 2009, 20:06
Gil.

Yes of course.

However, I have decided to wait to send them until the website is up. The list that stewart125 linked to, is last updated 3/2008, so I might just be adding information that is already there.

Who is behind this project? Is stewart126 the same person as gkh151 (Graham), and how does raf1318 fit in? Or is this somehow an offshot of the Fleetwood databases, (Float, and the Bosuns Watch)?

What I would like to see, is something akin to the excellent book on Cook, Welton & Gemmel, by Michael Thompson and associates. That is a tremendous effort, and is most feasible as a collaboration over the internet, where I would be happy to add my twopence worth.

Over time, databases containing C.W.&G. built vessels, Cochrane-built, Smith“s Dock, Mackie and Thomson, etc. could add up to a comprehensive list.

Do you have the German masterpiece, Wolfgang Walther“s "Deutsche Fishdampfer"?
His explanation, and schematization, of the evolution of german trawler designs is exemplary. When going through C.W.&G. I rather missed such classification of vessels, according to designs. I wonder if British shipyards pursued the same evolutionary method as the germans, where one design begets another, usually by lengthening the previous one, or scaling it up slightly.
I also wondered what happened when one yard built another ones design? (E.g. Cochranes“ Earl Monmouth of 1906 is a C.W.& G. design, while the Beverly built Sialkot (1912) is a Cochranes design.): Did they exchange drawings, or even moulds?

Birgir.

gkh151
9th July 2009, 21:26
Hi Bigir,

May I assure you that I gkh151 am not Stewart 125 and no nothing about raf 1318. I am just an ex grimsby born and bred fisherman and also merchant navy who still has an interest in trawlers. I must confess that I have nothing like the amount of knowledge that some of SN contributors but I just found this subject interesting because I did sail on some of the ships built at Cochranes and thought that the articles printed in Bygones would have been of interest to some of you.

Graham

gil mayes
9th July 2009, 21:43
Graham
Ref ALAFOSS. I was quoting from an Admiralty document lodged in TNA and captured digitally by Roger Griffiths which quotes details of all trawlers purchased by The Admiralty prior to and in the early stages of WW2. What has confused most people is that her Grimsby registry was not closed by The Admiralty until 26 Oct 1939. Her arrival at Bruges ex Grimsby was according to the Jac Bakker list I am looking at in his peculiar style - "ALAFOSS 561204 357 trawler".
Please do continue to contribute, we do need input from as many sources as possible.
Gil.

gil mayes
9th July 2009, 21:58
Birgir
I will respond tomorrow with a PM re Cochrane and other yard lists.
Trawler design like many ship designs was a progression of proven designs until tank testing and radical thinking was applied. In these days we think of industrial espionage but back along things were just lifted, in some cases by taking moulds when on the slip or by draughtsmen changing jobs. It is possible that for smaller builders designs were bought, much in the same way that they were later licensed. I remain amazed that designers slavishly followed the sailing trawler towing and that it took so long to get round to stern trawler design. That UK fisherman still want to haul the bag forward to bring inboard a practise the French gave up many years ago is also odd.
Perhaps this should be a separate thread as it rather gets away from the Cochrane Yard List (well fishing vessels anyway).
Gil.

birgir
9th July 2009, 22:34
Gil.

In the instances I mentioned about ships being built more or less simultaneously at Beverly and Selby, to the same design, It should be noted that there were buyers, buying from both at the same time. (Strangely, Alec Black canceled one of the series at Beverly, (Fortuna, Invicta, Earl Hereford), but bought Earl Monmouth from Cochranes.) The design may even have been the property of individual buyers. (I am thinking of Black“s "white elephants" in 1937.)

The relationships, formal and informal, between various buyers may be reflected in type of ship bought. Looking at the Cochranes list, I would be tempted to add the Grimsby Victor Company to Letten group. (Atlas and Union.)

I have been wondering about the relationship between various designs on offer from Cochranes on the eve of WW1. It looks like they had a portfolio;
My hypothesis for distant water ships is; a) a series of scaled design, (by whatever formula) (128“, 133.5“, 136.8“, 138.7', with varying beam, and b) different lengths, (a la german method, per Walther) of the 24“, beam. Different lengths were 130“ for Mount, at Fleetwood, 136.2“ for e.g. F&T Ross, 137“ for Consols, and 140“ for those who wanted the biggest trawlers. The series 135“L, 23.5“B. may have been a scaled version of that design.
But as I said, these are only hypotheses.

About design conservatism; The complete absense of labour saving innovation on the deck of sidewinders from inception to the emergence of the two-deck stern trawler is simply mindboggling. Only after the appearance of the sterntrawler did some German sidewinders get partly sheltered deck. Around 1950, icelandic trawler owner Tryggvi Ofeigsson claims the innovation of high bulwarks forward on side trawlers, (first used on Hellyers "Brutus"), which he claims greatly improved the working conditions of the crew on deck. But they were still doing practically everything manually, out in the open.

I am reminded of an incident back in 1980. A co-worker, who was an occasional seaman, in north-west Iceland, had just done a trip in a longliner that had had it“s deck half-covered. He was emphatic about the total change in working conditions, and stated categorically that he would never make another trip in an open-decked vessel. Few years later, all longliners had covered deck. Why did it take so long?

Birgir Thorisson.

gkh151
9th July 2009, 22:51
Gil,

I have read your reply with interest and I stand corrected but may I add that I also looked at the info on the sidewinder website which gives the same dates as those published in bygones along with other dates and facts about her history as both a trawler and her service with the admiralty. I assumed this info to be correct. As I said In my previous post I don't pretend to have half the knowledge or info that some of you have access to and I am always interested to learn and appreciate any info that I am given. I will continue to contribute when ever I can.

Graham

gil mayes
10th July 2009, 08:36
Graham
In compiling the Fleetwood Steam Trawler database, I only used published sources as a guide (LR, MNL. Olsen's), turning in the main to Shipbuilder yard lists, Customs House Registers, Return of Fishing Boats, Vessel Logs, The Fleetwood Fishing Vessel Owners' Association Ltd lists, Landing Lists, Admiralty folios,Newspapers, etc. and a great deal of help from individuals who had carried out similar detailed research. Regretably, many published sources have copied, one from the other and so errors are perpetrated.
Gil.

stewart126
10th July 2009, 12:37
To all asking who I am.??

My name is Graham Abbey & live in Shipley, West Yorkshire.
I work for Bradford College which I have done so for the last 35 years
My intrest started with fishing vessels in the earley 1960s
The work on Cochranes has come about by accident I was adding fishing vessels to my data base & started to place some in word files for builders as it has grown was placed in the format that you can now see. A copy of my work was placed in Scarbrough Libaray last year as refrence only. ( but seams to have gone missing) After puting some info on the web 2 weeks ago Someone got in touch and wanted to publish what I had and after a meeting it was decided by me NOT to publish this, as of the cost involved.
I made the decission to build a web site last week and construction of this is now on going.
This is going to take time with over 1600 Cochrane vessels. the data that I have is to be placed in the web as time now permits, I would like this to be as good as the book that was produced for C.W.G. My info is not complete by any means and all data sent to me will be included if correct as for the work so far this is to be used in you own judgement as how correct this is.
All help gratefully receveed as I like to make this as good as possible

Graham (stewart126)

Steve Farrow
10th July 2009, 15:20
This may be of interest.

I picked up a copy of bygones today entitled Trawler years and there is an article about Doigs shipyard which they say was taken over by Ross group in 1963. It goes on to say that they already owned Cochraneand son of Selby where they built the bird class and the cat class. Doigs was used to lengthen the K class where the fishroom was lengthend by 23ft 6in. In another article also in the copy of bygones it mentions the building of the Ross Daring built 1963 Ross Dainty 1964 and Ross Delight 1965 all built at Cochranes.

Hope this is of interest.

Graham

The TRAWLER YEARS is a Grimsby Telegraph pubication and was largely compiled by Steve Richards who used to be the fishing editor (when we had a fishing fleet) and was given very short notice to put the paper together. Personally I feel it is better than the previous edition........and there could be another to follow in the near future.
With regards to the picture of the ALAFOSS that appears on the back page, the port registry has just been missed by the camera lens!

Regards

Steve

birgir
10th July 2009, 21:17
Graham Abbey.

Sorry that I got confused with two parallel discussions being pursued simulteneously by two different Grahams on this thread.

First. What I can add; I do believe that I know more about pre-war Icelandic steam trawlers than anyone else. (Even our friend Nicolina). I have not studied post war trawlers, so what I know about them comes from published references. (All Icelandic sidewinders were built abroad, mostly in Britain and Germany, and a few in Holland.)

Second: I think I got your email adress wrong for the first time, which is the reason the email that I tried to send you did not get through. Since I do not know if the information I send to you is still relevant, I will not send you more at the time. But I will add the yard-numbers of Icelandic Cochrane-built trawlers, and if you think my data is useful, you could send me the entries for these vessels, and I could correct them.

Third. The data from Cochranes books are interesting, but as primary sources, it is not always reliable, when it comes to the identity of the Icelandic buyers. I noticed that some ships are listed under the names of managers who negiated the deal, or even the captain that supervised the building on behalf of owners.

Birgir Thorisson.

gkh151
10th July 2009, 22:47
Hi to All

Gil,

As previously said I don't have the data and info that so many of you do and seeing the info in the bygones I assumed it would be correct. Teach me in future not to take everything as read.

Graham (stewart 126),

Thanks for your post and putting to rights any confusion and I wish you luck in your future research.

Steve,

Thanks for your reply with regards to the Trawler Years. I know you have extensive knowledge of grimsby trawlers and also a large photo libary. With regards to the photo of the Alafoss taking a second look I see what you mean as the number on the starboard side of the ship would be before the ships name. It would appear that the editor of the article would have missed this point.

Bigir,

No need to say sorry I understand, it is just a coincidence that two Grahams are posting in the same thread.

To you All
At least I now know one thing if I need a reliable source of info about trawlers I know where to look and who to contact and for that many thanks to all.

Graham (gkh151)

mattarosa
11th July 2009, 10:29
[b][color="black"]

I made the decission to build a web site last week and construction of this is now on going.
This is going to take time with over 1600 Cochrane vessels. the data that I have is to be placed in the web as time now permits, I would like this to be as good as the book that was produced for C.W.G.

Hello Graham
Unlike many of the members here who have a lot of knowledge about trawlers, I am just an interested bystander. I got interested in the fishing industry in the course of some family history research. I have collected a lot of books and have easy access to the Times and Guardian/Observer digital archives, but I am not very often useful here, more often just asking questions!

I am really just posting this to wish you success in what you have undertaken. I am sure it will be really hard work but really worthwhile, and I am sure you will get a lot of help from the other members here. I am often amazed by the depth of their knowledge and they are all very generous in sharing it with each other.

Good luck!

Hilary

Kerbtrawler
11th July 2009, 13:10
Well said Hilary, But I disagree with you

your articles are of great interest to us all and it gives a different perspective on the difficult work the fishermen from around the country had to deal with.

Having read this thread, I am absolutely amazed at the depth of knowledge that is here on this site and the vast volume of information concerning this once great industry

Hats off to all of you for your freely given support and information

Excellant thread - should get an award (Thumb)

birgir
11th July 2009, 17:49
A bit different take:

A question for you Yorkies.

Was there no connection between the fishing industry, and the shipbuilding trades?

I notice that the centers of shipbuilding, (Selby, Beverly, Tee-side) are not IN the fishing towns. (Hull and Grimsby).
Also, the trawler-building industry went through very through a very marked boom-bust cycle, with huge variations in demand for new ships.
What did the laid off-shipyard workers do in the bad years? Migrate to other shipbuilding centers? or did they maybe seek employment in the fishing trade?

How come we so little input here from the shipbuilding side of the fishing industry? Do these people travel in totally different circles?

Birgir Thorisson.

gkh151
11th July 2009, 19:32
Bigir,

I know this was not on the Yorkshire side of the humber but Grimsby used to have a shipyard Doigs and if memory serves me I think it closed down inthe late 60s or early 70s. Going back to articles in the trawler years there is an article saying that they where involved in the building of supply tenders and coastal minesweepers for the admiralty and several trawlers for E Bacon and A Bannister. It also says that Ross group aquired the production rights to the American Jackstone Foster in1947 and they where involved in fitting the plate freezers for the fairtry vessels for Salvesens and also the conversion of the Ross Fighter later renamed the Ramilles. How accurate this is I am not sure perhaps there are others on here that confirm it.

Graham

aavh
11th July 2009, 20:48
Birgir, Smiths Dock Co Ltd North Shields built a few drifters (I think initially on spec) but then retained them while fishing. These vessels were all named by a number. Not sure how many?
Here is the history of the first.
One: (YH 463) (1900-1935)
O.N.111051: 84g 28n 80.0 x 18.6 x 8.6 feet
24 hp T.3-cyl G T Grey & Co Ltd South Shields.

1900: Launched by Smith’s Dock Co Ltd North Shields (Yd.No.631) for Smith’s Dock Trust Co Ltd North Shields (James Bloomfield Great Yarmouth manager) as “One” YH 463. 1900: Completed. 1900: Registered at Great Yarmouth YH 463.
1914: Owned by William Waters Wick. 1914: Renamed “FAIRY HILL”. 1914: Registered at Wick WK 757. 1929: Owned by J Edwards Lossiemouth. 1929: Registered at Inverness INS 19. 1935: Scrapped.

Regards

Andy

Kerbtrawler
12th July 2009, 11:01
I have on my database that her sister ship was called TWENTY NINE YH 691

but not sure how many others there were

cheers

peter drake
12th July 2009, 15:15
Hi Birgir
In answer to your question the hulls and superstructure of trawlers were built at Selby or Beverley and then towed to Hull where the boilers engines and some of the deck gear were fitted. Engines and boilers were built by Amos and Smith or C D Holmes both of Hull. The staff in these yards also did repair work on the merchant ships in the port. Some of the apprentices from the yards went on the trawlers but most went "Big boating" ie into the MN. The shipyards at Selby & Beverley also built tugs and lighters and the odd minesweeper so work was fairly constant. All sadly long gone now

Pete

K urgess
12th July 2009, 17:08
Typical Beverley launches
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=147347
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=147347
Not a fishing vessel
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=86116
Waiting to be lauched
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=90810
Waiting for the tide
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=37145

birgir
12th July 2009, 20:01
Thanks for the responses;

I was thinking of the situation as it was in the interwar years. Beverley shut down from 1922-1924, and Selby presumably underwent similar hardship in the post-ww1 slump. Where did the workers go? Well, it wasn“t much better elsewhere.
In the thirties, the trawler-building industry was in a different cycle from the rest of the economy. There was a boom until 1937, when the collapse of fish prices brought trawler building to an abrupt halt. At the same time, the re-armament boom was taking off elsewhere in the country. So, Everybody left, right? So how did they get started again, in 1939?

And, why were the shipyards in such ill-suited places, on tidal rivers in the first place? In Germany, they were mostly in the fishing towns themselves.

Birgir Thorisson.