Can we save them

JimWinsor
5th November 2006, 17:37
Hello people--- here,s a thought for you all.We roughly have what------3 remaining large ocean liners left?---being QUEEN MARY--QUEEN ELIZABETH 2--QUEEN MARY 2--I think if we want to preseve these last giants from going to the cutting torch we had better start now by the looks of things.I had read in the forum here some where that the company involved with the preservation of --QUEEN MARY--is in dyer straights,and can or will the city of Long Beach take over the preservation of her?And what happens to QE2 after her time is over---I dare say what will happen and I think we all know--as for QUEEN MARY 2 I don,t think it is to early to protect her either if we all think she is worth the while---as I have seen from some of the treads well----you be the judge---I think the jury will be out on that one for a while.So----I think we had better start the petions now on the other 2.What do you all think???(Cloud)

Coastie
5th November 2006, 23:38
What do you suggest we do, Jim?

Trevorw
6th November 2006, 00:05
A ship is a ship; just several thousand tons of potential scrap! Evoloution and progress will produce even better. We have pictures, films and heaven knows what else, why should we want to mothball what in the end will only rust away?

JimWinsor
6th November 2006, 01:50
Well this was a sore topic wasn.t it.Holy cow I didn,t think you guys hated these pieces of history that much.Do you not care the smallest what happens to the QE2 one of the most stateliest ships of our time.I can,t believe this guys come one you must have some feelings.I read to day the big hula balu about trying to save the Blue Lady.I just thought that might spark a little interest in the remaining ones sorry I brought up what seems to be a sore subject.(Frogger)

Coastie
6th November 2006, 02:11
It's not a sore subject with me, Jim, I was just curious to know what you intended we do?

JimWinsor
6th November 2006, 03:31
I guess what I,m trying to say is if we want to preserve these liners we need to act long before their end is in sight as we seen with the NORWAY,it seemed a lot of people out there wanted to save her but it was just to late.Does this make sense to you?

gdynia
6th November 2006, 04:00
Jim
I for one would like to see these vessels preserved and will participate in anything you have in mind. Lets just not talk about the Nostalgia of these vessels but keep them for future generations to see.

Thamesphil
6th November 2006, 10:09
Don't forget that these are huge floating objects that will be very difficult to maintain. We're talking millions of dollars, probably. Who has that sort of money? Then you have to find somewhere to keep them.

It's not like preserving historic cars, trains or even aircraft. Private individuals and preservation goups can succeed with these because they are small, cost less and it's not that difficult to find somewhere to keep them.

You can't keep a 1000ft ship in your back yard, can you?

I'm sorry, it's not that I hate these ships, but you have to be realistic.

JimWinsor
6th November 2006, 16:59
Ok lets close the books on this one.Thanks for the disscusion on this one.I,m not going to drag this out any further.I don,t want to make any mortal enemies on here the site is to good for that.Thanks very much-----regds---Jim

Nairda59
17th November 2006, 23:24
Don't forget that these are huge floating objects that will be very difficult to maintain. We're talking millions of dollars, probably. Who has that sort of money? Then you have to find somewhere to keep them.

It's not like preserving historic cars, trains or even aircraft. Private individuals and preservation goups can succeed with these because they are small, cost less and it's not that difficult to find somewhere to keep them.

You can't keep a 1000ft ship in your back yard, can you?

I'm sorry, it's not that I hate these ships, but you have to be realistic.


To a large part I agree, I am also part of Lorry and Car preservation and God knows thats costly and difficult enough, the thought of the harbour fees alone scares the hell out of me.
But a pile of scrap metal doesnt produce any nostalgia does it.
A very tricky one for either side of this case.

david
18th November 2006, 01:10
Maybe it has to be as well organized and professionally managed outfit like the Dutchies who seemed to move extraordinarily swiftly to save/restore the "Rotterdam".
Visit www.s.s.rotterdam
Any 'insiders' info Ruud?
Regards,
David D.

Bearsie
18th November 2006, 13:49
A commendable thought, it's sad that for instance only one Liberty ship is still around, out of what, a thousand? To preserve the technology for future generations would be good. But I am afraid that the expense climbs by the square of the tonnage involved and even with small coasters it gets expensive fast!
Incidently there are quite a few Musuem ships, its the gaps that one would like to see filled, since there is NO way you can save every ship !
in the UK there are a few Puffers, Vics, side trawlers (Corsair), Thames barges and such, and the Waverley
The dutch have the "Anda" and quite a few others.
Germany has several old sail ships, as well as a 'fleet' at the DSM in Bremerhaven and a few tugs, icebreakers, coasters maintained by private groups or local museums.
Even the US has a few "Oldies"
Unfortunately some of these ships there were so many of that most were scrapped before anyone noticed that they were gone...
Or they were not popular enough to be saved.
Not sure what else to do, unless you want the UN to save them all?
Incidently most ships that are restored/saved, the ball got rolling with one individual that founded some sort of support group

Bearsie
18th November 2006, 13:59
To a large part I agree, I am also part of Lorry and Car preservation and God knows thats costly and difficult enough, the thought of the harbour fees alone scares the hell out of me.
But a pile of scrap metal doesnt produce any nostalgia does it.
A very tricky one for either side of this case.

You probably get the city to supply the berth if they think it will draw tourists...
Incidently I tried to buy a wooden tug boat USN "Miki" class 1944
When I told my wife that we were going to sell the house to pay the 200 000 dollars the seller wanted I had a revolution on my hands LOL
She and the "crew" (3 sons) were NOT gonna live on a stinky old tug and scrub decks daily for entertainment !!!
Even me pointing out that there would be no more lawn mowing chores didn't get the required votes LOL

agentroadrunner
19th November 2006, 08:42
Agree with Bearsie,

We would probably all love to see all these old ships restored / preserved but money is the deciding factor.

We have ( in the UK alone ) Manxman, Royal Iris, Medway Queen, Maid of the Loch, Calshot and lots of others crying out for restoration, with Waverley, Balmoral, Shieldhall, Sir Walter Scott, Kingswear Castle etc just getting by in operational presevation.

To take on the likes of a Cunard Queen would be impossibly expensive except for a huge corporation or someone like Richard Branson and even then it would have to be closely watched and very well managed as these guys didn't get rich by being reckless or careless with money.

A

gdynia
19th November 2006, 08:50
It does not cost a penny though to have dreams

Jan Hendrik
19th November 2006, 11:26
The costs are very high indeed plus you need the infrastructure to moor a beastie like that alongside with a plan how to commercialise the event in order to get a pay back for the investors.
ssRotterdam, once in place in the old Maashaven across the city of Rotterdam, may well have cost over 30 million USD.
Jan

Nairda59
23rd November 2006, 20:06
Gdynia, I was amused by your "Where theres a way theres a will" reminded me of an old legal joke which is,
"Where theres a will, theres a relative".

Geoff_E
27th November 2006, 20:03
Preservation of these ships may have a sentimental appeal but I suspect that appeal isn't quite as strong amongst many members of the cloth (and ex members) as it it is among the enthusiasts; who haven't chipped the decks or cleaned the bottom plates.
Steel ships demand relentless and dedicated upkeep, on a scale, I suspect, far beyond the imagination of many. To the mariners their memory may encompass good voyages, hard voyages, happy memories or otherwise; but at the end of the day the articles closed, we left and went on our way - to other ships or whatever.
I'm afraid that donations aren't the way forward. A good business plan and hefty capital backing may get a project going, but even there, times change and commercial imperatives. (After all that's why many vessels become redundant in the first instance). Shipowning is and always has been, a hard-nosed business and we shouldn't forget that these "heritage objects" were built with only one purpose in mind, to make a profit for the owners and their shareholders.
I was actually quite upset to find photographs of Manxman in Pallion shipyard. What a waste! A huge commercial and strategic asset like that wasted, why isn't that exercising our enthusiasm and righteous anger?
Enough, I suspect this will will bring down a storm of protest, from some, but I think there'll also be quite a few sage heads nodding in agreement. Whatever, I'm not particularly worried. Ships fascinate me, I've spent a working lifetime on and with them (still ongoing) but when it's time for them to go, that's it.

neil maclachlan
28th November 2006, 19:29
Hello Folks,
As a old nostalgia buff I agree with all the people who feel like me. The 'Queen Mary" has been well looked after by our American cousins,its inevitable that if it does'nt pay for itself it would eventually have to go ( WHAT A PROBLEM). Someone mentioned the City of Glasgow might want it back, but I don't see them doing that? I would suggest Glasgow, if they are feeling that generous, go for the Q E 11,she is a lovely ship, and the last big ocean liner built at Clydebank. As for the 'Queen Mary 11", she is just a big hogged backed floating casino like all the other cruise ships!
Neil Mac.

oglebilluk
29th November 2006, 12:00
Geoff. I totally agree with your sentiments, especially in relation to Manxman.

The Manxman Steamship Co does have a viable business plan and once restored she could fund all the running costs, including maintenance and build a reserve toward future dry docking and hull work. Additionally we have been told that as a commercial assett her value would be multi million.

It doesn't need to remain a dream. We have the support of Liverpool and Wirral Councils together with NW Development Agency (also 2 private investors and a potential major commercial backer) to develop the project which would lead to 60+ permanent jobs as well as an iconic feature providing unique training and educational benefits. The ship is also classed as Designated on the National Register of Historic Vessels.

However we no longer have the offer of a permanent berth on Merseyside, and last week the ship was dry docked at Pallion. We suspect that an MCA survey is imminent and this could lead to her being taken for scrap. The last opportunity to restore a mini liner at a sensible cost!

Bill Ogle Manxman Steamship Company (www.ssmanxman.co.uk)







Preservation of these ships may have a sentimental appeal but I suspect that appeal isn't quite as strong amongst many members of the cloth (and ex members) as it it is among the enthusiasts; who haven't chipped the decks or cleaned the bottom plates.
Steel ships demand relentless and dedicated upkeep, on a scale, I suspect, far beyond the imagination of many. To the mariners their memory may encompass good voyages, hard voyages, happy memories or otherwise; but at the end of the day the articles closed, we left and went on our way - to other ships or whatever.
I'm afraid that donations aren't the way forward. A good business plan and hefty capital backing may get a project going, but even there, times change and commercial imperatives. (After all that's why many vessels become redundant in the first instance). Shipowning is and always has been, a hard-nosed business and we shouldn't forget that these "heritage objects" were built wIt ith only one purpose in mind, to make a profit for the owners and their shareholders.
I was actually quite upset to find photographs of Manxman in Pallion shipyard. What a waste! A huge commercial and strategic asset like that wasted, why isn't that exercising our enthusiasm and righteous anger?
Enough, I suspect this will will bring down a storm of protest, from some, but I think there'll also be quite a few sage heads nodding in agreement. Whatever, I'm not particularly worried. Ships fascinate me, I've spent a working lifetime on and with them (still ongoing) but when it's time for them to go, that's it.

jock paul
29th November 2006, 19:59
It seems to me, and I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames by more knowledgable members, that the only way to preserve vessels is as going concerns. Owners scrap ships because they are no longer profitable. I know many of the preserved vessels have volunteer crew, could not a small cargo ship, even though old, be kept running as a going concern with qualified volunteers?
A large part of ship's cost is the crews wages, if this was deducted it might still be possible , not to run at a profit, but to cover a large part of the costs.
I think there are many qualified retired seamen who would jump at the chance to run an old ship. Maybe even paying for the privilige! After all its not that long ago that apprentices had to pay for their indentures!
Am I making sense or is this wooly thinking?
Regards, Jock

dom
30th November 2006, 13:13
why the queens?the queen mary in L.A.is saved shes from a time when ships were ships,the others dime a dozen as our cousins would say,why not an old collier fort/park/empire/jeep when you knew you were on a ship cruise liners rubbish,just my thought

James_C
30th November 2006, 17:19
Indeed Dom.
My suggestion is this. The old HMS Rame Head will be decommissioned/scrapped soon from her role as a special forces training ship in Pompey. She is the last surviving Fort/Ocean/Park type vessel afloat, and certainly the very last British cargo type ship from WW2.
Although she was never a cargo ship, being converted to a repair ship before going into service. Why can't she be saved, and be converted into her original role. i.e. fit holds, derricks etc so she looks like a Fort/Ocean/Park in a similar vein to the many John W Brown, Jeremiah O Brian and the many Victory ships now preserved in the US.
We have nothing to compare. It would fill a monumental gap in the history of the Second War.
Wouldn't it look great in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard?

ddraigmor
6th December 2006, 22:22
I'm joining this thread late!

Volunteering. Some of us have been 'out of commission' for years, but I know that I'd volunteer to a) spend working weekends aboard b) volunteer for work aboard as part of a crew during sailing days. It would be a working holiday and like a fw on here, I suspect, the taking part would be something we'd willingly do.

Paying for it. The ship could serve to provide working experience to groups like Sea Cadets, RNR, MNR (if it is still going! ), MVS - as well as 'working holidays'for youth, rather like the Tall Ships do. My daughter 'ships out' on a tall ship for 7 days at a cost of about 300 - not including flights there and back! The ship could be hired out to TV and film companies.......there are ways to make it earn BUT.......

As many have said, you need a good, solid business plan. You need a permanent berth, insurance, surveys etc........

'Rame Head' could probably be purchased from the MoD for a nominal sum of money - but she'd need to be moved, towed to her new port and etc - which means a capital sum up front. No towage outfit will do it for free!

So yes, there are problems more real than ambition but that is not to say it could not be done. 'Rame Head' is a perfect example of us keeping alive a representative type of ship like the Liberty - but, realistically, her appearance differs now from 'as built' and she'd need major conversion back.......internal and external.

I could go on. For every good idea there is a reality check - but again, that is not to say we could not do it!

Or am I dreaming too?

Jonty

Tony Breach
10th December 2006, 14:33
How about preserving just a bit of the ships as a lot of the Mauretania & Olympic were done? Say as follows:
QUEEN MARY (with significant corosion) Preserve the wheel house fittings, radio room fittings, observation bar plus artwork. a turbine set & steering gear Would need a hotel group, museum or similar to build into replica structures of non-ferrous materials.
RAME HEAD Preserve the engine (if still on board - & if not the ship is maybe not worth saving) & the bridge equipment if original.
It is better to save something rather than nothing & the whole may be impossible particularly if used as a hotel due to health & safety, fire regs, disability access etc etc.

Just a thought but one could form a group for purchase of smaller items for preservation & display - may even pay for itself???

kevingillespie
26th June 2007, 02:50
Well we now know that Queen Elizabeth 2 will be preserved at least in the short term. But the original idea to start planning a post sailing career for some of these venerable vessels before it's too late is highly commendable.

Harley Crossley
26th June 2007, 11:17
At the end of the day, any project such as this does not make economic sense. and that is what it all boils down to.

Pat McCardle
26th June 2007, 12:43
They, the Germans, appear to be doing a good job with Cap San Diego in Hamburg. She has been about as a 'museum ship' for quiet a while. How do they get the funds to preserve & keep Her?

Mr-Tomcat
30th June 2007, 00:51
The QM2 is not British built so I'm sorry what in year's time happens so be it.

frankshipsea
1st July 2007, 14:18
it is a very hard thing to do to try and get a ship saved and lots of people will always say its too hard too costly ect and believe me it is but if a certain person had not said to me "what can one man in the middle of the desert do"
then i would not have started saving my old ship the m/v cape don.
have a look at our website mvcapedonsociety.org.au

Three years on and she is looking a lot better than she did we are now after more money to slip her.
she will end up as a ship that delivers aid to natural disasters ect and carry a mobile operating theartre on her deck.
she is ideal for this role. also she will be a floating maritime museum showing people here in australia how good a ship we use to build in the 1960's.

she is already classed as a maritime museum and has been getting a lot of work done by lots of volunteers.
I can tell you its not an easy task or cheap.
We have all types of people working on her from lawyers to doctors to young kids and a lot of retired seamen from captains down.
didnt the americans get a ship saved by getting evryone to donate one cent each?

needadditionalinformation
1st July 2007, 14:23
Evoloution and progress will produce even better Since when?

PollY Anna
1st July 2007, 15:57
Hi Guys have to put my 2p in.

If one of the big ships was saved MONEY has to be the problem. As attested there are a few ideas put foward by my esteemed colleagues in the previous notes. Here is another maybe to help fund the expense of running and maintaining a large ship, Large Companies should be asked to get involved. P.O. Shell BP Lever Bros. the list goes on and on. The top 100 in the stock exchange. The question is why because they will use the ship as a flagship for British Industry it could sail the World if not bring the World to it. The companies would be in a position to entertain buyers from all over the World the orders that ensued would cover the costs and I am sure that it would in the long term be a grand Flagship for GB Ltd.

It's an idea or am I just dreaming and living in the past

Ron

needadditionalinformation
2nd July 2007, 16:58
A ship is a ship; just several thousand tons of potential scrap! Evoloution and progress will produce even better. We have pictures, films and heaven knows what else, why should we want to mothball what in the end will only rust away?


Here's to "Evoloution and progress", read this: http://www.c4tx.org/ctx/pub/tromedy2.pdf

ddraigmor
2nd July 2007, 23:22
Why a floating gin palace that stopped employing UK seafarers ages ago?

If we are going to do this we would have to have British built, owned, registered and crewed for me to put a red sou anywhere near it!

Jonty

andysk
4th July 2007, 12:28
.... A ship is a ship; just several thousand tons of potential scrap! .....

Let's put it into perspective.

Windsor Castle, a potential preservation project, tips in at 37,640 gross, 16,252 deadweight, tons.

35028 Clan Line, a UK express passenger steam engine, about 50 years old in it's present form, weighs about 150 tons. A recent overhaul has taken in excess of 2 years, and the regular maintenance takes a large team of people, paid and unpaid, a lot of time.

Any railway preservation group will tell of the immense amount of time and effort taken up by fundraising.

If this effort is extrapolated upwards to something the size of a passenger ship, say something on the lines of Windsor Castle, I think the scale of the operation becomes unfeasible. Remember there would be little possibility of any state aid. Just look at the amount of money spent and committed to SS Great Britain in Bristol, about 1/10 the size of Windsor Castle.

Let us keep up with our memories, pics, souvenirs, books etc etc - not forgetting SN.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers

Andy

Lksimcoe
4th July 2007, 15:23
Hasn't the Windsor Castle already been scrapped?

Coastie
4th July 2007, 23:36
Hasn't the Windsor Castle already been scrapped?
Yes, she's gone to Alang, I believe. Shame, as she would have been worth preserving as she was in such good condition.

needadditionalinformation
6th July 2007, 01:52
If this effort is extrapolated upwards to something the size of a passenger ship, say something on the lines of Windsor Castle, I think the scale of the operation becomes unfeasible...
Andy

Having been personally involved with the SS Jeremiah O Brien, and others, I must say that it is certainly possible to save ships, even big ones. The USS Intrepid is a large (872 feet overall) US Navy aircraft carrier which has been open for years in New York. She just temporarily closed so they could do $58 million (EEK) in repairs to her pier and some maintenance on her (http://maritimecompass.blogspot.com/2006/10/uss-intrepid-to-close-for-repairs.html (not my blog)) .

Also the following from Wikipedia about the memorial ship USS North Carolina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_North_Carolina_%28BB-55%29): "After inactivation, she was decommissioned at New York 27 June 1947. Stricken from the Naval Vessel Register 1 June 1960, North Carolina was transferred to the people of North Carolina 6 September 1961. She was purchased from the US Navy for $330,000 raised by North Carolinian school children. In 1961 a fleet of tugboats was used to maneuver the 728 foot ship through an area of the river 500 ft wide... On 29 April 1962, she was dedicated at Wilmington, North Carolina as a memorial to North Carolinians of all services killed in World War II and may be visited to this day."

While there have been some recent failures, such as Artship, (Sad) (http://www.artship.org/Artship06/Day%20on%20the%20Artship%20images/DayArtship.htm) these are definitely the exceptions to the rule. And after checking, this instance of failure may ultimately prove untrue, as due to environmentally based legal conflicts, the Artship has been banned from traveling overseas to be scrapped by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. This should sound familiar to the folks around Hartlepool. Link: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20040506/ai_n14572364

Perhaps they'll have to find another source for several thousand tons of rebar. Breaks my heart. And just think of the jobs it will create for the folks mining new ore!

The following is a list of "Preserved Naval Vessels in the United States", I got to about 75 and gave up counting. (http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/preserve.htm) Besides the WW I USS Texas, there are are at least 6 WW II battleships preserved, not including the USS Iowa (57,350 tons full displacement), which will soon join her other three sisters in preservation. Evidently, there is a way this works out financially.

And these naval ships are by no means all the preserved ships in the US alone.

Some thought must be given to any such project, and locating them where tourist revenue is also possible certainly seems to help.

Penultimately, I was really upset when I heard the RMS Windsor Castle had been scrapped. I had understood Latsis, her last owner, only wanted 8 million for her, and I doubt his estate(?) (he was dead by then) got that much from the scrappers. I don't know Britain very well, but considering the connection your country has with the sea, I can't help but think she would have worked out fine. She was a really pointless loss.

Lastly, if you're still with me, I am 31 years old, and I will remember the WW II era crewmen on the SS Jeremiah O' Brien that I worked with, now half my life ago, as long as I live. I can still hear their stories. But these memories won't pass on with perfect efficiency even now, let alone when/if I make it into my seventies and eighties. The next time you visit H.M.S. Victory or Warrior, ask yourself if a picture would be just as good. Photographs and documents, as important as they are, just don't give an appropriately engrossing context, especially to all those who don't have the benefit of all of your experiences and memories to lend the understanding.

If a picture of a ship is worth a thousand words, what is the actual ship worth?

frannysea
6th July 2007, 05:50
the QE2, IS BEING SOLD TO A DUBAI FIRM, IN 2009/10, SHE WILL BE BERTHED ALONGSIDE ONE OF THE PALM ISLANDS AS A FLOATING HOTEL , I READ THIS IN THE BANGKOK POST 3 WEEKS AGO,SHE IS GOING FOR 50 MILLION , CARNT REMEMBER IF ITS POUNDS OR DOLLARS,

ddraigmor
6th July 2007, 20:42
Bill,

What a good post - and you hit the nail on the head for me with your last paragraph. It is about ambience, memory, experiencing what was - and those old seafarers you mention would be an additional incentive in any ship project.

Alas, despite our heritage and history, any small groups here struggle - there is no aid as far as I know.

Jonty

Mr-Tomcat
6th July 2007, 22:40
www.danieladamson.co.uk try this to see what hard work and dedication can do, I can say this with no bias as I'm in no way conected.

Andrew.

vchiu
5th August 2007, 01:20
A ship is a ship; just several thousand tons of potential scrap! Evoloution and progress will produce even better. We have pictures, films and heaven knows what else, why should we want to mothball what in the end will only rust away?


You are right, and in all fairness, we whould apply this to buildings and other creations of man.
What the heck keeping those ageing, unpractical, uneconomical old buildings such as Parliament, Tower bridge or buckingham Palace? these are no more than old stones with overdue life expectancy. They should be replaced, like any building older than 40 years old, by even better, modern, economic buildings shouldn't they? Same for those preserved steam locomotives and their rolling stock. they would be better replaced by modern DMU. Same for those old cars above 15 years. Unreliable, unsafe, thirsty. Pictures and memories are more than enough and much safer than encountering a true one on the road!

Let us go and speed up erasing those outdated commodities.....

Well, this is the predominant thinking in France as well. Whereas the British and US are pretty advanced in ship preservation, France just let the Norway sink with a shrug. The size of the ship, while being a challenge when discussing liners or battleships, is not really the most difficult. it is how the people of one country display a will to do something for a ship and consider it as a historical asset and not an economical liability.

To reply to Trevorw, I, for one, have plenty of drawings, books and pictures of French Battleships Jean Bart , Richelieu and HMS Vanguard. I don't know how much I would have paid to step into any of those in person.
I still curse the short vision that commandered their scraping.

How the SS Rotterdam, how the 4 Iowa class (among many others), how the Cap San Diego, the HMS Warrior or the JOB/JB were saved is the testimony of the hard work of a team and the strong will of a nation.


While I applaud technological progresses, I think it is good to keep a few milestones that show us how our elders fared. After all, we are here thanks to them.

RGascoyne
5th August 2007, 03:03
We learned from the efforts to preserve the Windsor Castle that it is fraught with problems and probably hard to achieve without a major sponsor, such as with the Rotterdam. That effort was started years before she finally went to Alang, where she probably sold for as much as five million pounds. Old wiring and DC current, asbestos, out of date components no longer up to code plus making her shipshape and durable for a longish period, even when you have a home and likely sponsorship to use her for some purpose or other. Figures as much as fifty million were bandied about and that was without regular maintenance and upkeep thereafter. As always, the economics will kill you, unless you can find bottomless pockets to fund it.

WILT
5th August 2007, 03:52
From my point of view I think it is a tragedy that none of the wonderful cargo liners,the workhorses of trade throughout the world for generations, couldn't have been saved for posterity.I know there are a few liberty ships have been kept,thank God, but they were pretty ugly and not representative of the best of the breed.Liners are majestic things, but are essentially floating hotels, give me the cargo liners any day!

WILT

Chouan
6th August 2007, 10:41
I'm unsure of why passenger ships seem to be the ships that are wanted to be preserved. As a previous contributor suggested, a cargo ship, a smallish general cargo ship for preference, would be far more representative of our maritime heritage. Old preserved warships seem, to me, to simply perpetuate our national ignorance of our maritime history, with the Royal Navy getting all of the attention, again, at the expense of the Merch.

Stevo
6th August 2007, 12:56
Well I for one would love to see 'old' Rame Head saved from the breakers but seriously folks, apart from hard core ship enthusiasts, who is going to be interested in her? The ship itself, even if purchased will require a berth and believe me very few ports want a rusting pigeon roost on their hands, not to mention the berthing fees would probably exhaust most of any funds.

Then you need to consider long term funding, who is going to provide money? Certainly not the DCMS which is ploughing much of what it has on the Olympics.

Having worked in at the Historic Ships in Portsmouth, for a vessel to have some vaue to warrant funding it must have an educational appeal, i.e. Mary Rose comes under Tudor History on the national curriculum, but the Rame Head - sorry folks WWII isn't a priority on the study list and besides we have the Belfast, Alliance and Cavallier.

I know these things tend to work in the States but dare I say there is a different mind set over there, and a whole lot more waterfront to develop. It pains me to say it but over here, there is neither the money, the willingness or the appreciation from society to save these wonderful ships.

If we are to do anything it is to ensure that these ships are well documented/photographed before their demise.

Chouan
6th August 2007, 13:25
"Having worked in at the Historic Ships in Portsmouth, for a vessel to have some vaue to warrant funding it must have an educational appeal, i.e. Mary Rose comes under Tudor History on the national curriculum, but the Rame Head - sorry folks WWII isn't a priority on the study list and besides we have the Belfast, Alliance and Cavallier."

As a secondary History teacher, could I just point out that the Rame Head would equally come under the National curriculum as WW2 is of priority to the Tudors. Indeed, there is no such thing as "priority" in the NC for history, there are suggested areas of study and compulsory areas of study. The "Making of the United Kingdom" and the "Twentieth Century World" are both compulsory.
However, we do indeed have the Belfast etc. A loosely contemprary Merchant ship would be of far more more value to our kids' education than any passenger ship, or yet another warship.

Chouan
6th August 2007, 13:26
Sorry, a typo, I meant "contemporary", but my finger slipped.

andysk
6th August 2007, 14:22
........ apart from hard core ship enthusiasts, who is going to be interested in her ............ a rusting pigeon roost ...... berthing fees would probably exhaust most of any funds.

Then you need to consider long term funding, ,,,,,,,,

In my view, I think Stevo has hit the nail on the head, at least as far as the UK is concerned. I know he is talking about Rame Head, but the basic principles will apply to any preservation project.

With any preservation project, raising a sum of money for the initial purchase would probably not be too difficult, but then reality has to set in.

The vessel has to be berthed, and it's condition stabilized before any restorative work can take place. This all costs money. Berthing may be difficult to find as well, not only would commercial ports and marinas want to maximise income from their assets, so market rates would have to be paid, but also one has to take into consideration the views of the local residents and authorities, which may not be quite so supportive.

Then, enthusiasts and volunteers will need to be found and organised. Initially that may well not be a problem, but when the scale of the undertaking becomes apparent, well that could in itself put people off, I can well remember the length of time it took the deck crew on a deep sea passage to chip and paint one derrick on a 'classic cargo ship', just think about the deck and hull plating.

If the vessel is to be kept a condition that will enable demonstration of cargo working techniques, all ropes, wires, blocks, winches etc etc will have to be tested and certified, and that certification maintained through regular inspection.

And, when the current crop of knowledgeable, and personally experienced enthusiasts becomes reduced in numbers, the problem of their replacement rears - will there be enough around to keep the vessel maintained.

I am not trying to be downbeat, just to add a note of realism. Having seen just how much effort and time goes into preserving and maintaining a small steam tank engine, then scaling it up to something the size of a ship, I am of the belief that it can't realistically be done and all that effort, resource and money could be better spent.

Always remember that regardless of the vessel, the last owners took the decision to dispose of the vessel because the income they could generate from it did not cover the costs of operating and maintaining it. Basic ecomomics.

Cheers

Andy

Stevo
8th August 2007, 11:48
I too am in education and have had enough experience of today's youth to realise that ships such as the Rame Head have absolutely know facination whatsoever for young.

WWII is a large subject and largely speaking when studying it you will have to go back to the unification of Germany through to 1945. Even at degree level (having studied at this level) the subject does not really cover maritime matters, not even the Dreadnaught building programmes pre WW1, so what educational value of a ship such as Rame Head or indeed any merchant from WWII?

In fact the only areas of education that really cover these maritime themes are at specialist Universities such as Portsmouth or Southampton. Portsmouth runs a range of maritime history courses and even has a specialist education block within the dockyard but again it's not nation wide.

Going back to the youth of today, here is our main problem, whilst on this web site we all remain vociferous when it comes to ship preservation and we all have a ship that we want to save, but lets be fair, we are a small group (probably too small to do anything). Even if we save a ship, who is going to keep it going... the young? Not on your life!

Classic example, the Medway Queen, all involved on her project are dare I say volunteer enthusists of a predominately similar age group, remenising of their past and to be fare holding on to their past through an old paddler. Okay what happens when that generation dissapears (No disrespect meant)? Then who keeps the ship going? Today's generations have no interest in the past and ceratinly not in old ships.... By saving a ship today would we not just be delaying the inevitable?

Next issue, the ship has to be financially viable........ A museum ship in the winter is dead (just go to Portsmouth Historic ships in January and you will see apart from education groups it's dead there). Okay so we make the ship a static hotel... Why sit on a cold rusting ship when we have cheap budget accommodation available (easy hotel etc). Okay what about a nightclub... weren't theses things not tried in the late 60s early 70s i.e. PS Ryde Queen/Medway Queen, that didn't work.

So what about a sea going floating conference centre/state of the art restaurant and mini cruise type ship...this could be commercially viable but only with a certain type of ship with sufficient deck space etc and a certain size, not too big and of course not too small. Of course a huge load of cash would be required as well but it would not be a chartible concern though. From the owners point of view the ship is a commercial venture not a preservation venture and therfore instead of splashing out huge sums on reconditioning and refurbishing an old ship wouldn't they be better off building a new ship?

Sorry folks, I really don't mean to sound so negative but people have to keep things into perspective, as mentioned before we can help keep the memory of a ship alive, and maybe we should concentrate on continuing to maintain the preserved ships that are already out there. Many people out there want to help preserve a ship but don't want to be the ones to lead it, if that's the case go and work as a volunteer at the Mary Rose or donate some money to the Cutty Sark - but then you might just say I haven't got the time or that ship does not really interest me...each to their own

RGascoyne
8th August 2007, 15:15
When it seemed likely that we could not save the Windsor Castle, a number of us contacted a few of the museums in Britain, seeking to find if we could at least gather up and exhibit some of the builders' models and others that exist still of Union-Castle ships. The Maritime Museum in Greenwich has an 18' builders' model of Windsor Castle, with interior cutaways, that used to be in the window of the company's Bond Street Passenger Office, and there are a number of others, maybe not so large. That model was on display in the 80s but, after some minor damage caused by the interior lighting, it has remained in the basement since.
Try as we might, we could get no interest in putting these back onto public display or finding a home for them, where they could be collected together. Even such an effort to make this history more available seemed too much to attract any government interest or funds. There was talk of a National Ship Model Museum, possibly in Chatham, but so far no signs of any life in the idea.

Chouan
8th August 2007, 18:39
"WWII is a large subject and largely speaking when studying it you will have to go back to the unification of Germany through to 1945. Even at degree level (having studied at this level) the subject does not really cover maritime matters, not even the Dreadnaught building programmes pre WW1, so what educational value of a ship such as Rame Head or indeed any merchant from WWII?"

But at Secondary Level it does, indeed, at GCSE as well, dependent upon Specification. So any merchant ship from WW2 would have educational value.

andysk
9th August 2007, 00:19
.......... exhibit some of the builders' models and others that exist ...........
Try as we might, we could get no interest in putting these back onto public display or finding a home for them, where the could be collected together. Even such an effort to make this history more available seemed too much to attract any government interest or funds. There was talk of a National Ship Model Museum, possibly in Chatham, but so far no signs of any life in the idea.

This doesn't surprise me, the NMM used to have on display many ship models before the revamp of the galleries, the majority of these are now in store. Under what conditions, or what their future is, who knows !

Also, Stevo's comments about enthusiasts of a certain age has been brought home recently in the WSS. A number of branches have closed in recent years due to the lack of young members joining the society. The average age of the attending members of the branch to which I belong is certainly well above 50, probably nearer 70 !

Stevo
10th August 2007, 13:44
Sorry, not convinced.... a merchant does not have any appeal, the WWII subject is simply too broad, Britain's merchant fleet is no where close to being the centre of the topic. Based on a school's enrichment budget they would not waste it on visiting a ship that would only cover a small portion of a large subject. Common sense would tell you to take the kids to the War Museum.

Once again, kids are not interested and subjects like history are losing their appeal. Your merchant vessel museum would not be sustainable.

Just because we all like ships and fantasise over saving one, we cannot presume the majority will as well.

vchiu
11th August 2007, 23:05
[QUOTE=Stevo;144977]
......
Once again, kids are not interested and subjects like history are losing their appeal.

........

Kids should be taught the importance of history and the meaning of the sacrifice of so many lifes for what is considered as granted today.

This is not only the work of ship enthusiast, but the duty of those who pride themselves into giving a true legacy to the younger generation.


You raise valid points regarding ship preservtion, but I would suggest to lobby one's MP (I can not do that, I am French, but I will do that for FNS colbert) and request government support for preserving a few key landmarks. An old ship is a piece of art that can't be duplicated or rebuilt anymore.

John Campbell
11th August 2007, 23:58
Sorry, not convinced.... a merchant does not have any appeal, the WWII subject is simply too broad, Britain's merchant fleet is no where close to being the centre of the topic. Based on a school's enrichment budget they would not waste it on visiting a ship that would only cover a small portion of a large subject. Common sense would tell you to take the kids to the War Museum.

Once again, kids are not interested and subjects like history are losing their appeal. Your merchant vessel museum would not be sustainable.

Just because we all like ships and fantasise over saving one, we cannot presume the majority will as well.

I agree - school kids have little or any knowledge of ships and shipping. I asked a really intelligent fellow of 15 "What is the Plimsol Line?" Never heard of it he said. I took him down to the quay in Aberdeen to show him one. Could not get through the gates - they are all closed to the Public now due anti-terrorism. Seafaring is not something that appeals to the present generation because they just do not know about it.
JC

Stevo
13th August 2007, 10:43
Agreed, kid's should be made to learn history, especially one as rich as Britain's, but merchant ships of WWII is not the place to start and is a long way down the priorities of historical subjects.

And, once again don't forget what we already have ships from that era already.

Preservation is a word we should avoid and rather look towards viable commercial projects, but be realisitic, zany ideas of static hotels and clubs are reckless and doomed to fail for the earlier mentioned reasons of mooring issues, health and safety. Even when you consider a band of hardy volunteers coming down to help with the expertese to help onboard, the project will still require insurance, the ship will still require mooring and associated fees and it will still require a docking which will cost hundreds of thousands. This is even before any reconstruction work is done on the ship, and then you need to consider the MCA's own safety requirements (Medway Queen take note), chances are your ship might not end up resembling what you originally planned it to be.

Chouan
13th August 2007, 12:51
I'm not suggesting that a merchant ship should be preserved for school/museum purposes (I'm aware of the practical arguments against), just that there is no more reason that an RN one, or sailing ship should be, that all areas of history have equal prominence. However, if a WW2 merchant ship existed I would take kids to see it in preference to any museum, (as Head of History it would be up to me in any case!) but any history teacher could make an argument for taking kids to see any historical site, as long as they wanted to do so and the site existed.

Mr-Tomcat
13th August 2007, 22:23
Agreed, kid's should be made to learn history, especially one as rich as Britain's, but merchant ships of WWII is not the place to start and is a long way down the priorities of historical subjects.

And, once again don't forget what we already have ships from that era already.

Preservation is a word we should avoid and rather look towards viable commercial projects, but be realisitic, zany ideas of static hotels and clubs are reckless and doomed to fail for the earlier mentioned reasons of mooring issues, health and safety. Even when you consider a band of hardy volunteers coming down to help with the expertese to help onboard, the project will still require insurance, the ship will still require mooring and associated fees and it will still require a docking which will cost hundreds of thousands. This is even before any reconstruction work is done on the ship, and then you need to consider the MCA's own safety requirements (Medway Queen take note), chances are your ship might not end up resembling what you originally planned it to be.

Look at the plight of the Duke of Lancaster, no one is remotely interested in her now, bought for all the right reasons H&S get in on the act and the result is a ship no one wants any longer.

Andrew.

Tony Breach
15th August 2007, 13:48
I have 2 American books which catalogue the preserved ships of that nation, some built in the UK (FALLS OF CLYDE, MOSHULU, EPPLETON HALL etc) & in other countries.
Great American Ships (ISBN 0-89133-189-1) Delgado & Clifford, bemoans the fact that 'Currently fewer than 250 historic vessels in the United States are maintained in a manner that preserves their historic character & are open or accessible to the public'
Sea History's Guide to American & Canadian Maritime Museums (ISBN 0-930248-03-1) Stanford, Lists all museums & museum ships of the North American continent.

Surely if they can do it the UK should be able to do it. When we can't even see the ship models any more things are in a poor state. I remember as a child my annual trips to London where I spent many hours looking at the models in the science museum & the NMM - mostly (like me) all now in storage. I have heard that the same has happened to many other museums in Britain. A leaf should be taken out of the National Railway museum's book: go to York & you see dozens of real locomotives plus rolling stock plus models & one of the most interesting parts is the store-room where one is free to wander. They also have a fair collection of railway ship models.

Why are we forbidden to see the wonderful collections of ship models owned by the nation: why don't they open the store-rooms. Why do we have to contribute BILLIONS to a couple of weeks of athletics & sport while our one great merchant ocean sailing ship requires help following the disastrous fire. Why did we let the PEKING go to New York (although maybe that was a good thing because at least you can see it & go aboard there).

Our transatlantic cousins show concern at only having 250 museum ships but here, the nation that 100 years ago had by far the world's largest merchant marine & probably navy as well, has so little on show. It seems to me that we suffer from a distinterested government & an apathetic population as far as our maritime history is concerned.

Tony

Chouan
15th August 2007, 14:41
Try 35 years ago with the biggest Merchant Navy, although I'm not sure when we last had the biggest military Navy, perhaps early 1920's, I'm sure somebody will know.
For whatever reason our nation is obsessed with competetitive sport and sees it as the pancea for all of our nation's ills. Boys are underacheiving at school. Solution? More competetive sport! Main reason why boys are underacheving at school? Literally, systemic failure in education, where education sets them up to fail. They fail at writing because they are taught to write before they are capable of it, they are made to sit still in class when they are are programmed to run about, consequently they see themselves as failures and feel alienated. So, lets make them do more competetive sport so that even more of them will fail more often! That'll solve the problem!
Sorry, I quite forgot myself. The Olympics always does it to me.....

R651400
16th August 2007, 07:49
Look at the plight of the Duke of Lancaster, no one is remotely interested in her now, bought for all the right reasons H&S get in on the act and the result is a ship no one wants any longer..

I think the only viable concept is to ensure any museum vessel is a sea-going tourist attraction, as was the idea behind "Glenfalloch."
The static French cruiser "Le Colbert" left it's Bordeaux berth this year after thirteen years museum service, visitors dropping from 100,000 to 35,000 p.a. pointing to a lack of interest in such vessels as the years roll on.
What a pity the "Duke of Lancaster" is in such a sad state. She would have satisfied the criteria for all MN personnel excepting maybe tanker-men.

Tony Breach
16th August 2007, 12:34
I trust that the GREAT BRITAIN is stemming the tide of apathy. I was on board a couple of months ago & the ship is looking very good & I was pleased to note that they were hosting a wedding reception that afternoon. The luxury end of the ship is beautifull restored & the ratbag accomodation is also very well presented, warts & all. I was impressed with the new engine exhibition even if the castings appeared a little hollow - a great job has been done here & it is fantastic to see such a large piece of machinery in a dynamic setting. It seems that there is an active & informed management stucture with good marketing skills & I was pleased that my entry ticket is valid for more returns within a 12 month period - makes good sense to improve revenue from shop & restaurant sales.

I hope that their fire detection & protection system is state of the art: this beauty is 100% irreplaceable.

I was disappointed to find the Maritime & Industrial museum at Princes Wharf was closed for a very lengthy refurbishment. I trust that it will not go the same way as did the Swansea museum with all the wonderful & priceless exhibits consigned to a dusty store-room in the name of interactivity & information technology. Bristol is synonymous with Cabot, Brunel & Trubshaw: The Merchant Venturers, Bristol Aeroplane Company, Great Western Railway, Bristol Commercial Vehicles & Albion Dockyard: Concorde, the Bristol car, the Great Britain & the Clifton suspension bridge. I truly hope that the heritage of this great city will be tangibly maintained.

Tony.

Chouan
16th August 2007, 14:16
Dare I say it, one of the problems is, potentially, the preservers. Given the limited funds, their obsessiveness with detail can be a major problem. With HMS Warrior, for example, one of the people who sorted out her guns told me with pride the inordinate attention to detail that was paid to exactly copying her guns. The composition of the metal, the enormously difficult casting process etc etc. This was then multiplied by the large number of guns that she had, when, realistically, one working gun would have been enough. The rest could have been dummies, with enormous savings on costs. Thios obsessiveness easily explains some of the enormous costs that restorations seem to entail.

Tony Breach
17th August 2007, 12:01
Good point, Chouan.

That is why I was impressed with the "engine" in the GREAT BRITAIN. I can't say it is a cheap imitation as it is a "relatively" inexpensive working replica which I am sure cost a lot in cash & manpower. It is powered by electricity instead of steam & doesn't smell of hot oil but good enough for me to stand & gaze at for an hour or so & go back to see twice in the same visit.

Tony

PhilColebrook
20th August 2007, 14:16
When it seemed likely that we could not save the Windsor Castle, a number of us contacted a few of the museums in Britain, seeking to find if we could at least gather up and exhibit some of the builders' models and others that exist still of Union-Castle ships. The Maritime Museum in Greenwich has an 18' builders' model of Windsor Castle, with interior cutaways, that used to be in the window of the company's Bond Street Passenger Office, and there are a number of others, maybe not so large. That model was on display in the 80s but, after some minor damage caused by the interior lighting, it has remained in the basement since.
Try as we might, we could get no interest in putting these back onto public display or finding a home for them, where they could be collected together. Even such an effort to make this history more available seemed too much to attract any government interest or funds. There was talk of a National Ship Model Museum, possibly in Chatham, but so far no signs of any life in the idea.

I wonder what happended to the Union Castle models in the Maritime Museum in Capetown, which I believe has closed.

Chouan
20th August 2007, 15:10
There will never be any interest as long as our media, press, radio and television, are not interested. And, I'm afraid, they are, quite simply, not interested in merchant shipping, or the Merchant Navy, or merchant seamen at all. The BBC are running a series on "real" men's jobs. They have included the blokes who repair pylons, paint the forth rail bridge, divers, etc. All perfectly valid. Having watched the Trinity House programme, my wife (who did 4 trips with me and who visited me when I was on N.Sea supply boats) remarked that it was nothing like as dangerous as being at sea, either on deck or as an Engineer yet no mention or either job projected in the series to come.
There never will be funding for preservation of anything to do with Merchant Ships, because, essentially, nobody cares. In the early 70's when there were many, many more Brits at sea, people didn't care. They certainly won't care now!
The only people with any concern are those with a direct connection. Where I work now there is one oldish bloke whose uncle was an Engineer; he understands. On the other hand, there is another, a young lad, whose grandfather was at sea as an Old Man, but he hasn't got a clue what it meant, and even less interest.
A final comment, to illustrate the continued depth of ignorance and stereotyping, a review of a new biography of Conrad in saturday's Telegraph by one Philip Hensher states ""I've wondered whether (Joseph) Conrad might not have been a very well controlled homoseual. the fevered erotic under-decks fantasy of the greatest of his stories "The Secret Sharer". Says it all really.....

Chouan
12th September 2007, 14:53
As far as ship models are concerned, the Science Museum have a good number on display, although the Museum staff present over the summer holidays seemed to be less than interested in discussing the maritime exhibits.

andysk
17th September 2007, 15:03
Just catching up (again) with a few comments to this thread :

... kid's should be made to learn history, ....

Sadly, it is impossible to make kids learn anything ! What needs to happen is the right conditions need to be there for them to develop an interest in the subject, then the teaching professionals, backed up by parents and family, will be able to foster that interest by preparing the subject matter in such a way that it reinforces rather than destroys that interest.


our nation is obsessed with competetitive sport and sees it as the pancea for all of our nation's ills. ............

The nation may be, but TPTB (the powers that be) seem not to be. Otherwise that headmistress of a junior school who refused to have genuine races for kids and parents at the school "sports day" on the basis that everybody has to be rewarded with something (everyone's a winner !), would not still be in her job.

Rant over, just my 2pennorth ......

Cheers

Andy

WhiteStarOlympic
14th October 2007, 01:11
Queen Mary is the last of the old great ocean liners we have today. so if anything were to happen to her i would be devastated. i wonder how much she would cost...if possible i would take her in a flash, but i don't think that would ever be possible lol. though i hope nothing ever happens to her.

Mr-Tomcat
17th October 2007, 20:32
If the oppertunity arose how many people on here would be prepared to join in to save or preserve a vessel? I would the experience and the learning curve.

Andrew.

ddraigmor
17th October 2007, 22:14
Mr. Tomcat.

I think a lot of folk would - there are all the trades on here that would ne needed to maintain a vessel - the question is, where would the finance come from? Could apply for a lottery grant but unlikely to get one. The Government are not interested and most ports are run on a commercial basis so hardly likely to get a free berth. Plus H&S would be paramount.....

But for all that, I'd willingly give up time to work on a project close to hand doing whatever it took to have a go. How many members here would do the same, given the chance to a) preserve something worth preserving b) make it work and c) have the odd trip between A and B?
Jonty

James_C
17th October 2007, 22:31
I think one of the biggest might have beens was bringing Glens 'Glenfalloch' back to the UK and berthing her in the Royals. Keep her in trim over the winter and spend all Summer going for jollies down the river a la the Cap San Diego.
She'd have kept a lot of SN very happy!

Bill Davies
18th October 2007, 00:00
I think one of the biggest might have beens was bringing Glens 'Glenfalloch' back to the UK and berthing her in the Royals. Keep her in trim over the winter and spend all Summer going for jollies down the river a la the Cap San Diego.
She'd have kept a lot of SN very happy!

Goes a bit deeper than bringing some old hulk back you would have to resurrect an old BF crew. Those alive are , like me, waitng for the box.

ddraigmor
18th October 2007, 20:56
Seriously, what about the tug 'Canning'? She's laid up but surely she could be put back into commission? Engineers, Nav's, deckies - a project for the ex seamen (and tuggies) in here and the many enthusiasts who would join ranks....

Anyone any idea what is happening to her?

Jonty

Mr-Tomcat
19th October 2007, 14:06
Watch this space John.

Andy.

Mr-Tomcat
26th October 2007, 17:49
Gentlemen go and have a look at these pictures, give them a while to become live, I spent an hour or more aboard the Canning all picture where taken minus flash, was unable to get down into the crew quaters, I hope you'll enjoy looking at what I've taken. http://thesteamtugcanning.fotopic.net

Andrew.

frankshipsea
14th March 2008, 06:42
the m/v cape don is still being restored had a west australian reunion of ex crew members 75 turned up double the number of last year.
the volunteer numbers still are good. people love ships and those who never had the chance to sail now get an idea of what its like to live and work on them by comming down to balls head in sydney to volunteer their time be it in the galley on deck or down below.
We have been getting some publicity and the ship is looking better all the time.

Yes money is always a big concern we are at the moment hunting down a big company to sponser us.
so any ex seamen in australia who wish to help and you happen to be in sydney feel free to come down and see her.
Our website is mvcapedonsociety.org.au from there you can get directions to the ship and also contact numbers as well as pictures ect.
I think this worked out because I would not take no as an answer , many told me it cant be done, well so far it is being done.

you cant save most ships but if a few are saved so at least people can see what it was like in "the old days'
We are hoping to get the cape don back to sea that is the final goal.
She would make an ideal relief /aid ship as she is a shallow draft vessel.

xmtryanx
17th September 2008, 03:26
PLEASE dont forget about the good old SS United States :)