TV Morar

kepowee
2nd December 2006, 13:45
hi all has anybody got a photo of the tv morar its the only ship i sailed on that i havent got a photo of ken powell

john shaw
2nd December 2006, 14:04
ken

I answered this request on a couple of other threads-- "50s coasters " and "iron ore carriers"-- perhaps you missed the replies? See:
http://www.clydesite.co.uk/clydebuilt/viewship.asp?id=18437

there is a sternview photo plus all details

regards

kepowee
2nd December 2006, 14:20
hi john thanks for posting the photo im glad to see they re engined her as she was always breaking down at sea ken powell

albatross1923
2nd December 2006, 15:56
sailed two trips as 2ndeng on the gtv morar still suffering from shock

from 29.5.61to 29.6.61 signed off port talbot
30.6.61to 29.7 61 signed off greenock
albatross 1923 R340006

Joe Freeman
20th January 2007, 00:06
Hello albatross1923, I would be very interested to here about the Turbine Free Piston Gasifiers in the "Morar" I saw one in David Rowan's engine shop in 1961-2. I have been puzzled all these years why it was there and for what purpose. Possibly it was for the sister ship "Arisaig" if the first gas turbine had been sucessful, or possibly it was a spare. I know she eventually had a Diesel installed in her.
I remember opening one up end for some suits to view and take pictures of, then I closed up the end cover and replaced the tarpaulin never to be exposed again. I was told that it had been tested in the shop and that the noise and vibration blew out the windows in the test bay.
Amy comments.

muldonaich
20th January 2007, 01:06
i have been told today that captain ian ramsay died of a heart attack yesterday in glasgow age 75 another old timer crossed the bar rip.

albatross1923
23rd January 2007, 16:15
Hello JOE
here is as much as i can rember about the morar built lithgows 1959.scrapped
1980 original engines by rankine blackmore 4 free piston gas generators
1 gas turbine re engined 9 cyl werkspoor diesel problem how do you go astern
i think it was done by masking of the ahead set of blades from astern blades
gasifiers always died out when manouvering albatross1923 84yrs old tomorrow

Gulpers
23rd January 2007, 16:40
i have been told today that captain ian ramsay died of a heart attack yesterday in glasgow age 75 another old timer crossed the bar rip.

Sad news Kevin. I sailed with him in 1973 on Troll River. I was Cadet at the time and didn't have many dealings with him but, he always struck me as being a jovial gentleman. If I remember correctly he lived in Ayr.

muldonaich
23rd January 2007, 17:40
Sad news Kevin. I sailed with him in 1973 on Troll River. I was Cadet at the time and didn't have many dealings with him but, he always struck me as being a jovial gentleman. If I remember correctly he lived in Ayr.hi ray i sailed with him on troll lake he was ok as old man did not bother anybody cardinal grey was mate regards kev.

Gulpers
23rd January 2007, 18:51
hi ray i sailed with him on troll lake he was ok as old man did not bother anybody cardinal grey was mate regards kev.

Kevin,

Sailed with Jim Gray as Mate and first trip Old Man for many trips on Arctic Troll - never a dull moment! He lived in Doncaster. Any idea how his health faired - he was diagnosed with skin cancer when I last sailed with him!

Joe Freeman
23rd January 2007, 20:16
Hello JOE
here is as much as i can rember about the morar built lithgows 1959.scrapped
1980 original engines by rankine blackmore 4 free piston gas generators
1 gas turbine re engined 9 cyl werkspoor diesel problem how do you go astern
i think it was done by masking of the ahead set of blades from astern blades
gasifiers always died out when manouvering albatross1923 84yrs old tomorrow

Hello Albitross1923 Happy birthday, you are 20 years my senior and we are all getting on, so that is why I am inquiring about this unique type of power generation. I still don't know how one of these gasifiers happened to be in storage at David Rowan's engine shop in 1960-1 or what ever happened to it.
I found a Posts dated 29th. & 28th. Dec 2005 from DCMARINE and neil maclachlan regarging this ships engine. One clue is that she the 'MORAR' in March 1961 had engines replaced, detaild as original engines plus one additonal gas generator. The replacement diesel engine did not take place until 1967, possibly the additional generator came from Rowan's.
The dimensions given for the gasifier bore is 340mm. X 550mm. this must be the combustion chamber as I remember the end cover or bounce piston end to be about 600 to 700mm. in diameter or larger. It must have been a bummer to start and control the fuel supply.I have a photograph of a Pratt and Whitney gasifier from Pescara, but it looks quite small compared the ships engine.
I look forward to any other information that I may have jogged youe memory.
Joe Freeman.

albatross1923
23rd January 2007, 21:24
hello joe
you have bounced my memory we broke down at narvik i think it was damage to the rotor and had spare flown out funny you mention spare gasifier i only rember three so it could well be after isigned of at greenock29.7.61 that the fourth one was fitted if rowans did not make it rankine blackmore must have
to start gasifiers you had to bump start from a certain position albatross 1923

muldonaich
23rd January 2007, 23:26
Kevin,

Sailed with Jim Gray as Mate and first trip Old Man for many trips on Arctic Troll - never a dull moment! He lived in Doncaster. Any idea how his health faired - he was diagnosed with skin cancer when I last sailed with him!no idea ray but i also heard that captain bob cotter crossed the bar a couple of years ago he was a great guy kev.

Joe Freeman
23rd January 2007, 23:59
hello joe
you have bounced my memory we broke down at narvik i think it was damage to the rotor and had spare flown out funny you mention spare gasifier i only rember three so it could well be after isigned of at greenock29.7.61 that the fourth one was fitted if rowans did not make it rankine blackmore must have
to start gasifiers you had to bump start from a certain position albatross 1923

Hi again, for some unknown reason I don't think Rowan's built it as it had a little wooden backboard and lamacoid name plate attached to the support stand, and I never took in all the information but I think it said Experimental.
One outstanding thing it came with a Torque Wrench in a fancy wooden box with chrome sockets and squirreled away out of reach of any light fingered punter.
I had the opportunity to open one end for some gentlemen in suits to view and take photographs, that is how I kind of remember the size of the cylinder.
It appeared to be as large as the bore of a Doxford liner that sat quite close to it. The Americans also tried the free piston gasifier for a turbine in a Liberty ship called the William Patterson, there was an article in TIME magazine in 1957 April 16th. It also was unsucessful, had poor fuel economy and sluggish response at low speed. However, there is a young fellow in Germany who is about to produce a freepiston engine for a car. If you are interested you can find it at : www.stelzer-motor.de/html/english.html
Cheers for now,
Joe Freeman

Joe Freeman
9th February 2007, 01:29
Hello it's me again. I have been reading with intrest several replies to threads from ARRANMAN35, neil mac and ALBITROSS1923 regarding the turbine vessel Morar's free piston gasifier turbine engine. Over the years I have become quite intrigued by this unique type of marine propulsion, as it appears to be the only British Merchant Vessel that utilized this type of main engine.
According to an article in TIME magazine in 1957 an American built liberty ship the William Patterson utilized a free piston gasifier turbine engine that developed 6,000hp. Similarly it too was unsucessful due to high fuel consumption, sluggish response at slow speed, heavy and frequent maintenance all helped to cause it's demise.

I briefly worked on a single free piston gasifier unit stored at David Rowan's engine shop in Elliot Street Glasgow about 1960-61. From the information provided by ALBITROSS1925 I think this unit was eventually installed or used as a spare in Morar about 1961.
There appears to be virtually no documentation or any photographic record of this type of propulsion as installed in Morar other than a vague mention in the Clydesite database on the ship itself and engined by Rankin & Blackmore.
ALBATROSS1923 was able to provid me with some statistical records documenting the ships history and a few comments regarding the engine reliability and breakdowns. The information supplied by ARRANMAN35 and neil mac support the other members observations of frequent breakdowns and heavy maintenance.

Could you provide me with any other information regarding the gasifier operation, such as, how was the piston speed controlled? Were they operated individually or in a group? Could the gasifiers operate on heavy fuel? Was the turbine speed reduced through a gearbox and was it directly connected to the propellor shaft or through a hydraulic or pneumatic clutch? Did they vibrate and were they loud?
The other diesel engines on board, were they auxiliary generators or were they also utilized as prime power?
As an ex marine engineer I am concerned that without some more detailed information or photographic record regarding this particular ships engine, the historical record of this unique piece of Scottish Marine Engineering may soon pass into history unnoticed.
I thank you gentlemen for your comments and any further information
Joe.

Joe Freeman
12th February 2007, 22:21
I should add that for all the troubles with the turbine gasifiers. This old ship sailed for over twenty two years before being scrapped at Kaohsiung in 1980. Her sistership M.V. ARISAIG only lasted fifteen years before being scrapped in 1972 at Faslane.
Joe.

ranger66
14th February 2007, 23:54
I was 2nd.Mate on Morar in early sixties. Lots of port time for deck dept. but when underway had standing orders to keep at least 5 miles off everything! I remember engineers were eligible for a bonus after 6 months, but don't believe anyone ever collected. I was in Narvik when they shipped the rotor up to the local garage for repair! It fit nicely in the bed of a small truck.The build philosophy was to allow more cargo space with a much smaller E/R, so replacing the main must have been a challenge. There was another ship around that time with similar propulsion, but with VP prop - apparently more successful.
I remember 4 gasifiers with only three supposed to be on line. I also remember British Polar Diesel being one of the prime contractors.

John Cassels
15th February 2007, 09:18
Morar was well known in Denholms as the only ship to have passed
Cape wrath 5 times in one day.

JC

Joe Freeman
16th February 2007, 00:17
Hello Ranger66, would you happen to remember the name of this other ship with a similar power plant. The only other ship that I have found was an american liberty ship William Patterson, that I mentioned previously.
The gas turbine had three gasifiers to generate high pressure gases to produce the power. The other gasifier was most likely the spare.
Thanks for the information. I sailed with Ben Line Steamers as 4th. engineer for a couple of years before emigrating to B.C. Canada in 1967. Do you happpen to know Trevor Caldwell I think he is a Mate on one of the BC Ferries.
Joe.

ranger66
17th February 2007, 08:53
Sorry Joe - Don't remember the name of that other ship. Just remember that she was mentioned by engineering as a more successful application of the technology.
I don't recognize the name you referred to but I have been retired since 2000 and lots of people there now that I don't know. Still working summers up in the Charlottes on small passenger ships - that's where old ferry captains go to die!
I am enjoying browsing the Denholms posts. Most of the references are after 1966 when I left for BC, but there are quite a few names that I remember - most of them fondly!
Happy days indeed, or maybe time just filters out the bad stuff.

randcmackenzie
17th February 2007, 14:30
Sorry Joe - Don't remember the name of that other ship. Just remember that she was mentioned by engineering as a more successful application of the technology.
I don't recognize the name you referred to but I have been retired since 2000 and lots of people there now that I don't know. Still working summers up in the Charlottes on small passenger ships - that's where old ferry captains go to die!
I am enjoying browsing the Denholms posts. Most of the references are after 1966 when I left for BC, but there are quite a few names that I remember - most of them fondly!
Happy days indeed, or maybe time just filters out the bad stuff.

I can't remember the name, but began with R, and she belonged to Bolton Steamship - REMBRANDT, ROLAND ??? Something like that.

muldonaich
17th February 2007, 18:58
I can't remember the name, but began with R, and she belonged to Bolton Steamship - REMBRANDT, ROLAND ??? Something like that.there was ripon --redcar--rembrandt--revaux--ribblehead and one more can you remember the other roddy? kev

muldonaich
17th February 2007, 21:26
there was ripon --redcar--rembrandt--revaux--ribblehead and one more can you remember the other roddy? kevby the way we seem to have an awfull lot of nosey bastards on this site always looking but posting nothing i wish they would all grow up because i know a few of them regards kev.

muldonaich
17th February 2007, 21:33
by the way we seem to have an awfull lot of nosey bastards on this site always looking but posting nothing i wish they would all grow up because i know a few of them regards kev.hi ray and john i dont mean you ,you always call a spade a spade i was in the local shop today and a comment was past about postings so i said why dont you post yourself thats why the site is there pissed of kevin.

Joe Freeman
21st February 2007, 01:06
Yes gentlemen you are all correct there was a ship called gtv REMBRANDT 3 powered by five free piston gasifiers. This information was provided by a member Baltic Wal in a thread that I discovered from viewing a picture of this ship in the photo gallery.
From Baltic Wal's experience it seems that this ship also had troubles with her gasifiers giving the deck boys lots of time ashore.
The ship was built at Smith's docks and owned and operated by Bolton's and was the second British Merchant Ship with a gas turbine powered by free piston gasifiers.
I would be pleased to hear from any engineers or mates who sailed on Rembrandt 3 during the time she had the gas turbine engine.
Thanks again,
Joe.

Argyll
21st February 2007, 20:08
Hullo Kev.
I 'm just off shift, and left Geo. McGreavy on he is the same person you spoke of on an earlier thread, he informed me he was known as the Hollywood Bosun His words, not mine, I did pass on regards and told him of the site. Argyll

HENNEGANOL
21st February 2007, 21:00
I am almost certain that The Free Piston Engines were the subject at one of the student lectures at the I.Mar.E. in 1957/58. And I recall that the French Navy were carrying out trials with them at that time. Sadly I threw my copies of the lectures away when I moved house!

Gerry

muldonaich
21st February 2007, 23:49
Hullo Kev.
I 'm just off shift, and left Geo. McGreavy on he is the same person you spoke of on an earlier thread, he informed me he was known as the Hollywood Bosun His words, not mine, I did pass on regards and told him of the site. Argyllthanks argyll he just confirmed what i told you was his siter married to an eco????? kev.

Argyll
22nd February 2007, 10:03
Hi Kev,
I don't know about his sister, but he has a lady friend as he says I beleive she has her own catering business and does various functions , she also has a pad in Costa Brava which Geo. visits often
Argyll

K urgess
22nd February 2007, 18:03
Gentlemen

I have an article on the subject entitled "Gas Turbine and Free-piston Machinery" published in the motor ship in 1955 and 1956. I would be happy to transcribe this and post it in a new thread if there was enough interest or if it would be of any use to anybody.

Cheers
Kris

HENNEGANOL
22nd February 2007, 20:22
Marconi Sahib,

I would be interested in a copy of the article if one is going.

Also In the gallery you posted a photo of Bert Hesketh, I am sure there can only be one from that mould. He was a Production Supervisor on the Umm Shaif Complex (Abu Dhabi) when I was out there from 1977 onwards, what a star and a gentleman he and I got on really well! Thanks for the memories.

Regards.

Gerry Taylor

randcmackenzie
22nd February 2007, 23:54
there was ripon --redcar--rembrandt--revaux--ribblehead and one more can you remember the other roddy? kev

Hello Kevin,I found a wee Bolton Steam website, there was one called RAMSEY as well.

Regards, R.

muldonaich
23rd February 2007, 00:22
Hello Kevin,I found a wee Bolton Steam website, there was one called RAMSEY as well.

Regards, R.

thanks roddy if i remember right it was a really old company but for the life of me i cant remember what their funnel markings were any idea kevin.

Joe Freeman
23rd February 2007, 01:07
Marconi Sahib & Gerry,
I certianly would be interested in reading a copy of this article as I can't find very much of anything on the Web. Any technical information or photographic documentation seems to be nonexistant and it would appear that there are not many marine engineers around any more who know much about these free piston gasifiers. Hopefully I am wrong about the marine engineers and possibly some information still exists.
Regards,
Joe.

muldonaich
23rd February 2007, 20:12
Hi Kev,
I don't know about his sister, but he has a lady friend as he says I beleive she has her own catering business and does various functions , she also has a pad in Costa Brava which Geo. visits often
Argyllwas there myself lol kev.

Jim S
23rd February 2007, 20:50
thanks roddy if i remember right it was a really old company but for the life of me i cant remember what their funnel markings were any idea kevin.

Bolton Steam Shipping Co and subsidiary North Yorkshire Shipping Co had all black funnel. The house flag was red with a white diamond within which red letters F.B.according to my 1963 edition of "Flags,Funnels & Hull Colours"

muldonaich
24th February 2007, 18:17
Bolton Steam Shipping Co and subsidiary North Yorkshire Shipping Co had all black funnel. The house flag was red with a white diamond within which red letters F.B.according to my 1963 edition of "Flags,Funnels & Hull Colours"thanks for that i could not remember the funnel old age i think best regards kevin.

K urgess
24th February 2007, 18:23
Gerry & Joe

I will post either in a new thread or the new SN Guides if I can figure out how to do it.

Kris

K urgess
7th March 2007, 00:32
Apologies for the delay, gents.

Since "The Motor Ship" is still a going concern I thought it prudent to ask them if I could post their article.

Still waiting for a reply.(Smoke)

Cheers
Kris

Joe Freeman
7th March 2007, 22:11
Apologies for the delay, gents.

Since "The Motor Ship" is still a going concern I thought it prudent to ask them if I could post their article.

Still waiting for a reply.(Smoke)

Cheers
Kris

Thanks Kris for the update, I will look forward to reading the article.
Should there be a problem with posting the article I am sure that you could E-mail it to me without infringing on their copyright as it would not be for publication.
Joe.

K urgess
11th March 2007, 20:32
Gentlemen

No reply from the Motor Ship. They obviously don't care.
Attached is a copy of the page showing the "Morar" installation under test.

If anybody wants a copy of the 6 page article I've got it as a 2Mb Acrobat "PDF" file that prints up quite well. Any smaller and it gets too blocky, especially the illustrations and technical details. Next size up is 3.5Mb which may take a while to download/ use up online time.

If anybody wants a copy send me an email or PM me with your email address and I'll reply with the 2Mb copy attached.

The same volume of Motor ship contains a wealth of information including detailed articles on just about every marine diesel available in 1960 and nuclear ship propulsion.

Cheers
Kris

ROBERT(Bert) FRATER
14th March 2007, 13:41
Morar was well known in Denholms as the only ship to have passed
Cape wrath 5 times in one day.

JC

Also the only one to have missed the tide between the anchorage and the lock gates at Port Talbot !!

xdenholm
14th March 2007, 14:37
Also the only one to have missed the tide between the anchorage and the lock gates at Port Talbot !!

seems like gross negligence robert,(Smoke) or someone not doing their job!!! or dont know what their job is!!

Joe Freeman
15th March 2007, 06:30
Gentlemen

No reply from the Motor Ship. They obviously don't care.
Attached is a copy of the page showing the "Morar" installation under test.

If anybody wants a copy of the 6 page article I've got it as a 2Mb Acrobat "PDF" file that prints up quite well. Any smaller and it gets too blocky, especially the illustrations and technical details. Next size up is 3.5Mb which may take a while to download/ use up online time.

If anybody wants a copy send me an email or PM me with your email address and I'll reply with the 2Mb copy attached.

The same volume of Motor ship contains a wealth of information including detailed articles on just about every marine diesel available in 1960 and nuclear ship propulsion.

Cheers
Kris

Thanks Kris for the article it was of great interest.

John Cassels
15th March 2007, 09:52
Also the only one to have missed the tide between the anchorage and the lock gates at Port Talbot !!


Nice to hear from you again Bert. Never actually sailed on the Morar but
passed her a few times. Crowd seemed to be over the wall each time
on stages touching up the sides. Heard they kept the stages permantly
rigged !!!!!.

JC

Joe Freeman
18th March 2007, 18:46
Gentlemen

No reply from the Motor Ship. They obviously don't care.
Attached is a copy of the page showing the "Morar" installation under test.

If anybody wants a copy of the 6 page article I've got it as a 2Mb Acrobat "PDF" file that prints up quite well. Any smaller and it gets too blocky, especially the illustrations and technical details. Next size up is 3.5Mb which may take a while to download/ use up online time.

If anybody wants a copy send me an email or PM me with your email address and I'll reply with the 2Mb copy attached.

The same volume of Motor ship contains a wealth of information including detailed articles on just about every marine diesel available in 1960 and nuclear ship propulsion.

Cheers
Kris

Hi Kris,
A very good picture that you posted in the gallery from the 1960 20th. edition of Motor Ship Magazine reference book. I wonder if any Ships Nostalgia member out there would have a copy of that exact magazine with this article in it, and would not mind sharing it with us.
Thanks once more,
Joe.

K urgess
18th March 2007, 18:51
Joe
That'll be the February, 1959 edition of "The Motor Ship" you need. I'm afraid I can't help but I'm sure somebody will.
Cheers
Kris

Joe Freeman
24th March 2007, 04:11
Joe
That'll be the February, 1959 edition of "The Motor Ship" you need. I'm afraid I can't help but I'm sure somebody will.
Cheers
Kris

Thanks for the update Kris, much appreciated. I have possibly found a source of old Motor Ship Magazines.
All the best,
Joe.

Alan Rae
23rd January 2008, 16:39
Seem to remember(in the mists of time)Shell were one of the first to experiment with this type of propulsion.They re-engined one of their existing vessels-didn't last very long and they dropped the idea.France-Fenwick(not sure about spelling)also ran one-sailed with a chief engineer who sailed on it-dont remember the name-the chief ended up having a nervous breakdown followed by a period in the funny farm,subsequently recovered.Alan Rae

Alan Rae
31st January 2008, 17:24
Experimental Shell tanker was the Auris,built 1948,with four diesel engines.In 1951 they took one of the diesels out and replaced it with a free piston gas turbine.If you Google in "free piston gas turbine" there are three sites that come up but the information is a bit sparse and one of them gives the name of the American ship as the "John Sergeant"built in 1942.Auris was broken up in 1962,John Sergeant in 1972.Remember seeing an article in the "Transactions" about the Auris.Alan

Joe Freeman
2nd February 2008, 22:33
During my visit to Glasgow in November, I visited the Glasgow University Archives in Thurso Street several times. Thay have a vast collection of Motorship Magazines which I was able to view and take some pitcures of the Free Piston Gasifiers for the GTV Morar, and one interesting picture of an experimental Gasifier built and tested by Alexander Stephens in a special test shed for that purpose. No indication of which ship it was for. Ther appears to be several different models of the GS34 Free Piston Gasifier. They all seemed to have similar operating problems and defects.
Joe.

Stephen J. Card
4th February 2008, 13:13
During my visit to Glasgow in November, I visited the Glasgow University Archives in Thurso Street several times. Thay have a vast collection of Motorship Magazines which I was able to view defects.
Joe.

Joe,

Motorship... great magazine... especially the old issues. In 1975 I took the Motorship editor around LOCH LOMOND while finishing off at Chas Connell's yard. Unfortunately I never got a copy of the issue featuring the LOMOND.

A couple of years ago I was able to acquire from a dealer in New York, an almost complete set of The Motorship , from Volume 6 No 70 ( January 1926) right through to Vol 40 No. 473 (December 1959). Unfortunately the war years, January 1940 to December 1946 are missing. All copies are in excellent condition, each year has been professionally bound with leather cover and gold titles. Very smart!

If you need any info, please don't hesitate to shout.

Stephen