Puzzle Castles

Kaskazi
15th January 2007, 15:08
These two photos have sat in my collection for years, both labelled as Braemar Castle. I am hoping that the more knmowledgable UC hands around here will be able to place correct names on them.

When I compare the "at sea" photo with my photo of Braemar on the Braemar thread, it does not seem possible that this is Braemar Castle. It seems to me that the arrangement of rear mast and derricks is quite different - also lifeboats towards the stern. But it was definitely taken during the same trip in 1954 between Cape Town and St Helena. I seem to remember someone on deck saying "Oh it's the Braemar" or something like that, hence my label. Can anyone name her correctly?

The other photo is labelled "Braemar Castle 1957" - blame my mother, who took the photo from her house in Mombasa! First, I don't think that new funnel was applied to the castle boats visiting Mombasa until 1958, so the date is likely wrong. Second, I have just read that Braemar Castle did not get a funnel makeover during her remodelling in 1960 (http://www.red-duster.co.uk/UNION19.htm). But Kenya Castle and Rhodesia Castle did get new funnels in 1958/59. So is my label wrong in respect of both name and date???

danube4
15th January 2007, 20:38
The one with yellow funnel could be either Capetown Castle, or Pretoria Castle
Barney.

Kaskazi
16th January 2007, 01:34
Thanks Barney - don't get misled on colour - this is an over-edited photoshop product! Supposed to be standard UC livery(A)

Stephen J. Card
16th January 2007, 04:56
These two photos have sat in my collection for years, both labelled as Braemar Castle. I am hoping that the more knmowledgable UC hands around here will be able to place correct names on them.


The other photo is labelled "Braemar Castle 1957" - blame my mother, who took the photo from her house in Mombasa! First, I don't think that new funnel was applied to the castle boats visiting Mombasa until 1958, so the date is likely wrong. Second, I have just read that Braemar Castle did not get a funnel makeover during her remodelling in 1960 (http://www.red-duster.co.uk/UNION19.htm). But Kenya Castle and Rhodesia Castle did get new funnels in 1958/59. So is my label wrong in respect of both name and date???


Ok... a bit of research this afternoon....

The first photo... v/l at sea is either the STIRLING or ATHLONE. The later pair CAPETOWN and PRETORIA were quite similar but there is one main visual difference.

In the photo... as on STIRLING and ATHLONE, the maindeck is open from right aft through to the foredeck. On the CAPETOWN and PRETORIA the open alleyway is plated in... with portholes.

Also note the accommodation ladders. On STIRLING and ATHLONE buth were housed in the maindeck bullwarks. On the CAPETOWN and PRETORIA, on ladder is aft on maindeck and the other is midships... one deck higher.


For the second photo.... this could be either BRAEMAR, KENYA or RHODESIA. All three were given the domed funnel tops when they were refitted... RHODESIA in August 1960, KENYA in May 1961 .... BRAEMAR had hers fitted late1960/early 1961.

Again, beautiful photos. Any more? :-)

Stephen

Refs: Union-Castle Line - A Fleet History Peter Newall Carmania Press 1999

An excellent volume. 254 pages and extremely well illustrated. Peter did a fine job on this one.

Kaskazi
16th January 2007, 20:42
Thanks again Stephen. That sure helps narrow things down. I wonder why red duster said Braemar didn't get a funnel-lift.

Mention of Stirling reminds me of an incident in 1951, when we were returning to Mombasa from UK in one of the BI boats (can't remember if it was Mulbera or Modasa). Stirling C was docked behind us at Port Sudan and had blown the 30-minute whistle to announce imminent departure (or was it 60 minutes?). Our whistle had also gone so folks had returned from their walk into town and were hanging over the side to see all that was going on.

A steward was seen to come down the Stirling's gangway and deposit one suitcase on the dock, returning to the ship immediately - and barely making it before the gangway was shipped. As the boat began to ease ever so slowly away from the dock, attention was drawn in the other direction to a lady tripping along as fast as she could in her high heels - I distinctly remember the incongruity of the high heels. She screamed and gesticulated wildly at anyone on the Stirling who might be looking her way. The general tenor was "come back, come back"! After all, it was only a matter of 10 feet or so. If there was a response, it was probably "not bloody likely" or perhaps something a bit sharper.

She finally noticed preparations for us to ship our gangway too and realised she had better head our way ASAP. She just made it (greatly hampered by the suitcase that she now had to carry for herself) but turned out to be perhaps even more outraged at BI charging her for a passage than at UC for leaving her behind. She was one of those unfortunate people who couldn't seem to generate much sympathy even among her fellow passengers.

As for more, you're a glutton for punishment. Since you seem to like puzzles, here are a couple of photos that I kind of like, but am not sure which vessels they are, which perhaps gives me an excuse to post them here. The first one reminds me of the way at some ports we went ashore in small launches, which judging from this one, were perhaps sometimes a bit overloaded. I believe this is at Zanzibar, June/July 1954. I think the ship in the background is the Rhodesia Castle, but I have lately come to doubt whether that trip was in her or in Kenya Castle.

The second simply places a Castle (Kenya or Rhodesia, no doubt - family never travelled on Braemar) and BI boat together (and notice the dredger in the background between them), this time at Aden. I was not on this trip; the photo is from my mother's collection and probably dates to 1957.

Stephen J. Card
17th January 2007, 04:52
As for more, you're a glutton for punishment. Since you seem to like puzzles, here are a couple of photos that I kind of like, but am not sure which vessels they are, which perhaps gives me an excuse to post them here. The first one reminds me of the way at some ports we went ashore in small launches, which judging from this one, were perhaps sometimes a bit overloaded. I believe this is at Zanzibar, June/July 1954. I think the ship in the background is the Rhodesia Castle, but I have lately come to doubt whether that trip was in her or in Kenya Castle.

The second simply places a Castle (Kenya or Rhodesia, no doubt - family never travelled on Braemar) and BI boat together (and notice the dredger in the background between them), this time at Aden. I was not on this trip; the photo is from my mother's collection and probably dates to 1957.




OK.. let's deal with the first photo. You say Rhodesia Castle or Kenya Castle. That makes it simple.... if we eliminate the third sister Braemar Castle.

Rhodesia and Kenya had a different window type on the superstructure... Main Deck forward. Kenya had round portholes. Rhodesia had the rectangualr type that could be top opened. The photo must be Rhodesia Castle.

For the second photo... only two ships in the class, Dunnottar castle and Dunvegan Castle. Dunvegan was sunk in 1940 so this must be Dunnottar!!!

I have been aboard Dunnottar... after she was rebuilt as the Incres Line's cruise ship Victoria. This would have been about 1966... in Bermuda. There was nothing on the ship that you could indentify as Dunnottar Castle... even the machinery was new. She survived until just a few years ago as 'The Victoria' under Louis Cruise Line, Cyprus. Not bad for a 1939 built ship!

I don't know how UC named their decks on the passenger ships. What I call 'main deck' I take to be the uppermost deck that runs from stem to right aft. On some ships it might be called Upper Deck.

Again, excellent photos...for thhair clarity and good colour. What a pity UC stopped painting their masts brown and eliminated the thing brown stipe along the hull. It must have been a nuisance to paint but it certainly looked smart.

Stephen

Stephen J. Card
17th January 2007, 04:58
The second simply places a Castle (Kenya or Rhodesia, no doubt - family never travelled on Braemar) and BI boat together (and notice the dredger in the background between them), this time at Aden. I was not on this trip; the photo is from my mother's collection and probably dates to 1957.


Heavens I'm slipping! Not a BI ship... this is one of Will. Willemsens, Norwegian flag. The bands on the black funnel are blue.

You have heard the Willemsen ditty...

Will Willemsen,
The black and blue,
Not much pay,
And lots to do!

The tanker at left seems to be sporting Texaco colours on the funnel... or it was Caltex back in the 1950s?

Stephen

Kaskazi
17th January 2007, 16:02
Such an eye for detail - you amaze me - but thanks!

Kaskazi
18th January 2007, 12:19
And here's one of those remodelled Castles again, taken at Kilindini early in 1967, from aboard Lloyd Triestino's Europa, going for the popular 3-week holiday cruise down to Cape Town and back.

Bryangillott
30th January 2007, 10:58
These two photos have sat in my collection for years, both labelled as Braemar Castle. I am hoping that the more knmowledgable UC hands around here will be able to place correct names on them.

When I compare the "at sea" photo with my photo of Braemar on the Braemar thread, it does not seem possible that this is Braemar Castle. It seems to me that the arrangement of rear mast and derricks is quite different - also lifeboats towards the stern. But it was definitely taken during the same trip in 1954 between Cape Town and St Helena. I seem to remember someone on deck saying "Oh it's the Braemar" or something like that, hence my label. Can anyone name her correctly?

The other photo is labelled "Braemar Castle 1957" - blame my mother, who took the photo from her house in Mombasa! First, I don't think that new funnel was applied to the castle boats visiting Mombasa until 1958, so the date is likely wrong. Second, I have just read that Braemar Castle did not get a funnel makeover during her remodelling in 1960 (http://www.red-duster.co.uk/UNION19.htm). But Kenya Castle and Rhodesia Castle did get new funnels in 1958/59. So is my label wrong in respect of both name and date???


I have a book of 'photos by Alan S. Mallett. His picture of Braemar castle is definitely differnt to yours. You are correct about the baots and afyt derrick arrangement.

Bryan

Cisco
1st February 2007, 05:27
The first photo... v/l at sea is either the STIRLING or ATHLONE. The later pair CAPETOWN and PRETORIA were quite similar but there is one main visual difference.


very minor point of order if I may......Capetown was a prewar 'one off' .....Pretoria and Edinburgh were the postwar sisters.....

Stephen J. Card
9th February 2007, 05:36
very minor point of order if I may......Capetown was a prewar 'one off' .....Pretoria and Edinburgh were the postwar sisters.....



Careless research!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guilty as charged!

Thanks for the correction.

Stephen

dom
9th February 2007, 06:11
you mention the Stirling Castle in Port Sudan a red sea port,her usual run was the cape mail eg, Southhamton Capetown-Durban did she do a round trip?

Chris Isaac
10th February 2007, 10:10
Highly unlikely but still possible.
Stirling was always on Cape Mail run to the best of my knowledge.
Port Sudan would have been a bit beneath her !

Kaskazi
14th February 2007, 14:04
Stirling at Port Sudan? Well, what can I say? Only that that's how I remember it, but I must confess my memory is hardly a reliable guide to anything these days! I can say with certainty that it was about April, 1951 (we sailed from Tilbury in April).

Chris Isaac
14th February 2007, 15:06
It is possible.... matbe she did a round africa voyage.... it would have been out of the ordinary tho.
Perhaps some ex UC people before my day can throw some light on it

RGascoyne
25th March 2007, 18:52
UCL mailship and post-war east-african decks were usually called:
Boat Deck - from bridge to aft of funnel
Promenade Deck - main fore-aft deck starting in line with the bridge
A Deck - usually a continuation of the foredeck
B Deck - often the embarkation deck
C Deck - often with Galley and Saloons
D Deck - housed First Class swimming pool on older mailships
Pendennis, Transvaal and Windsor had additional decks
Stirling and Athlone had a side deck all along A deck, others later did not
Stirling seems to have more prominent Monkey Island with varnished rail, to otherwise mostly exact sister Athlone. Same goes for Edinburgh over Pretoria minus varnished rail over her almost exact sister.
As for Stirling in Port Sudan, some round-africa ships could have looked similar back then, but likely square not rounded Bridge superstructure and smaller in size. She was a trooper during and immediately after the war but then Stirling returned to the mailrun. She did take Australian troops back to Perth in 1946.
Inter-war ships were almost all motor ships whereas all post-war were steam.