Lowestoft questions

Roger Griffiths
4th February 2007, 17:05
Hello,
Anyone know the names of the vessels which bore the port numbers LT282 and LT489. Circa 1915.

Thanks and regards
Roger

treeve
4th February 2007, 23:10
From my web pages on W H Podd...

1913 NIMROD LT489
Built 1892 Chambers & Colby, Oulton Broad
10th September 1915 stopped by submarine 45 miles E by S of Lowestoft
Sunk with time bomb. Vessel was insured with War Risk Association
to the value of £700, but as the vessel was in a prohibited area,
£460 was paid to WH Podd; the crew of four was picked up by a Dutch Steamer.

I think I have come across LT282 somewhere as well, will get back to you.
Best Wishes, Raymond

treeve
4th February 2007, 23:30
The LT282 I was thinking of was the Yellowfin, much later.

When I was working on the fleet of WH Podd,
I had an amazing degree of help from Terry Lynes,
Assistant Project Manager,
Heritage Workshop Centre, 80a High Street, Wilde's Score,
Lowestoft, Suffolk, NR32 1XN
I have emailed his email address to you.
Best wishes, Raymond

Roger Griffiths
5th February 2007, 00:12
Hello Raymond,
As always thank you for answers.
Could LT282 be BOY ERNIE?

Thanks and regards
Roger

treeve
5th February 2007, 00:25
Not impossible, there were a lot of "BOY"s at that time....
I can't help you on LT282 ...
I was concentrating on W H Podd, but acquired a number
of other details along the way, all rather fragmented,
as well as a few photographs, I have a few more to
upload on the site, as well as some updates on W H Podd's
fleet, but I want to concentrate of getting these Penwith
Registers assembled, and the Harvey fleet first. Always
pleased to be of help ....
All the best, Raymond

treeve
5th February 2007, 00:31
Actually, they were lost in the same incident, weren't they?

Roger Griffiths
5th February 2007, 11:55
Actually, they were lost in the same incident, weren't they?


Supposedly.
As you may have gathered from my last few posts, I am looking into some descrepencies regarding small vessels in Lloyds War Losses and BVLS for WW1. It would appear in certain situations that not much time was spent examining all the facts before putting pen to paper.
In the general scale of things it's not that important but as in the case ALICE GY541 for instance, her crew would not have been given war grave status, something I am trying to redress. I think we owe them that at least.

Back to BOY ERNIE There were 2 U-boats involved in this action. Both recorded sinking fishing smacks so there could have been more losses. The only positive is LT282 and LT489. Incidently the U-Boats KTB says the action was on the 10th Sept not the 9th
So the question it seems is whether they sank in total of two, three or even more smacks on that date. So if BOY ERNIE was LT282 at least that removes her from the equation.
regards
Roger

treeve
5th February 2007, 12:25
Yes indeed. I am sure that the Lowestoft Heritage Workshop Centre will be able to help you. It was just that the name BOY ERNIE was familiar, and I checked back on my W H Podd notes. There was so much petty minded bureaucracy going on and so many men, who had lost their lives as a result of the War, have not been recognised and recorded as War Deaths.
Keep up the good work.

Clem
5th February 2007, 13:00
Hi Roger, from an 1897 source, LT282 Zenith owned by J. Barnard, Cathcart St. Lt.

Clem

Roger Griffiths
5th February 2007, 20:08
Hello Clem,
Thanks for the input.
All I came up with was DONUM PATRIS LT282 from 1881 o/n 85217.
Hopefully Raymonds contact will come back with something concrete. I have also been in touch with Suffolk Archives and a mate at TNA. So fingers crossed.

regards
Roger

Roger Griffiths
6th February 2007, 13:47
Hello,
this is what I now have on BOY ERNIE
LT 282
Registered 1905-1915
wooden sailing trawler
71.5 x 19.2 x 8.8
official number 119394
47.43 tons
59.24 gross
built 1905 by R Jackman of Brixham
owners:
1905 - E J Crews
1915 - S J Chadd and Edith Waller
incidents:
10 September 1915 - stopped by the German submarine UB2 58 miles east of Cromer and sunk by time bomb, crew (one injured) saved by smack JERICHO of Lowestoft.

Confirmation from the Returns of Lowestoft Fishing Vessels 1914-1918.

Thanks for the help and interest.
regards
Roger

PS NIMROD was sunk by UB16. Raymond. Do you want a copy of her KTB for your W H Podd site?

treeve
6th February 2007, 18:36
That is very good of you, Thank you.

treeve
6th February 2007, 20:04
Thing is Roger, when I started out, I had a lot of kind help from others,
and you were there, then. Now I have gained some experience and some
knowledge and I am only too glad to be able to return the compliment
and offer help where I can. Best Wishes, Raymond

itfc rules
13th November 2007, 11:02
Could anyone help me track down info and pics of the Carlisle, She fished from lowestoft in the late 70's - 80's but came into grimsby often.

mattarosa
13th November 2007, 12:47
[QUOTE=Roger Griffiths;106326]Supposedly.
As you may have gathered from my last few posts, I am looking into some descrepencies regarding small vessels in Lloyds War Losses and BVLS for WW1. It would appear in certain situations that not much time was spent examining all the facts before putting pen to paper.
In the general scale of things it's not that important but as in the case ALICE GY541 for instance, her crew would not have been given war grave status, something I am trying to redress. I think we owe them that at least.

Roger
What happened to the Alice? Is there anything we can do to help?

Also - what does BVLS mean, please.

Sorry for asking so many questions, but I am a novice compared to the rest of you. The breadth of your combined knowledge is staggering.

Hilary

Steve Farrow
13th November 2007, 13:44
If you send me an PM, I will forward what pics I have of the Carlisle when she worked out of GY.
Or go to the gallery and see the photo of her that I posted.
Regards
Steve

Edited to remove email address as per site policy - MS

Roger Griffiths
13th November 2007, 18:42
Roger
What happened to the Alice? Is there anything we can do to help?

Also - what does BVLS mean, please.

Sorry for asking so many questions, but I am a novice compared to the rest of you. The breadth of your combined knowledge is staggering.

Hilary

Hello Hilary,
BVLS = British Vessels Lost at Sea. The First Word War edition was first published by HMSO in 1919 The Second World War volume was published in 1947. Both volumes cover ships of the Royal Navy, statement of losses and British Merchant vessels including fishing vessels lost or damaged by enemy action. They are an invaluable reference work but they only give basic information. Name of ship, tonnage, how sunk, position etc. see attached.
You should be able to pick up paperback copies for around £15

ALICE
There were 3 British vessels named ALICE sunk in WW1 The one we are talking about is ALICE GY541 formly SH 282, no O/N, built at Whitby in 1903, and was registered at Grimsby on 12 July 1915, by the East Anglian Steam Fishing Company Ltd at Grimsby Fish Docks. She was posted missing since14/8/1917 no reason for her loss was given.
Together with Michael Lowrey we established that ALICE was in fact sunk by the German submarine UC-63. UC-63's KTB (Kriegstagbuch, War diary) states clearly she sunk a fishing vessel with the port number GY541 the time and position also match.
The War grave status is ongoing but I admit I have not had the time to follow it up.

regads
Roger

mattarosa
13th November 2007, 21:11
[QUOTE=Roger Griffiths;163059]Hello Hilary,
BVLS = British Vessels Lost at Sea.

ALICE
There were 3 British vessels named ALICE sunk in WW1 The one we are talking about is ALICE GY541

Roger
Many thanks for the information. I understand about the lack of time. I just don't know where it goes.

My interest in trawlers started with helping a friend to trace his family tree. I think the contribution made by trawlers and their crews in the two world wars was tremendous. Researchers like you and sites like this do a lot to ensure that contribution is not forgotten.

Kind regards
Hilary

GY177
19th November 2007, 12:12
One of my other interests is family history, which fits in nicely with this forum as I have a number of ancestors associated with shipping and the sea. My Paternal Great Grandparents were married in Lowestoft, and on their marriage certificate it says that the Groomís Fatherís Occupation was a Sailor - This was in 1892.

I was just wondering how big the fishing fleet was in 1892, or, as the cert says ĎSailorí (as opposed to ĎFishermaní) if there was any Royal Navy or Merchant shipping activity out of Lowestoft in those days?

Any thoughts?

Regards,

Dean.

GY177
9th January 2008, 16:19
Any Lowestoft gurus out there, that can answer the above post? Or maybe point me in the right direction for finding out.

Thanks in advance,

Dean.

treeve
9th January 2008, 16:35
Could you tell us the surname you are following.
Also, I would add, that at that time there were many fishing smacks, some fleets were up to 300, so I am led to believe. Two man crews. Have you checked the Census records as to his occupation? There was one in 1891.
Have you checked the Fishing Vessel Registers for the period? If the vessel was large enough she would also be in the Shipping Registers. Masters were not recorded in registers after 1855. I do suggest census records, either side of the date could be useful. Best Wishes, Raymond

GY177
9th January 2008, 17:02
Hi Raymond,

Thanks for that. The only information I have is his name Ė John KENT, and his occupation is stated as ĎSailorí. I have checked the census returns, but had no luck there.

Iíve not checked the Fishing Vessel Registers Ė where are they held? Do you need the name of the vessel though, to search those?

Regards,

Dean.

treeve
9th January 2008, 17:26
You need to be careful here, the term sailor may mean that he served on any ship anywhere. If he worked ona fishing vessel, to find him would mean a search through all of the FV registers for that date group. And he may not have been either owner or master, and may not have been named. there are, however, Crew Lists (well some of them that have not been sent out of the country), again, it is extremely hit and miss if you were to find the records of a particular vessel in that particular year and with your John Kent on board. I have posted the details elsewhere in SN on Lowestoft FV Registers, I will post it here later today. If it was a ship of any description from Lowestoft, again you would need to see the Shipping Records, but he would only be named in those if he was either owner or master. This is why I am transcribing the records for my area, to assist anyone. Have you been able to find John Kent in any of the census records? Have you been able to find his BMD records anywhere? Again if he was a "sailor" there is such a weight of probablity that he would be at sea at the time of a census. Yours is one of those cases where you will have to realise that you are making a puzzle with half of the pieces missing; the picture has to be best-guessed as you progress, and then work from that. More later ...
Best Wishes, Raymond

treeve
9th January 2008, 17:55
Now ... have you checked the excellent CLIP website, and made search there?

Registers ...
Lowestoft Records Office
Central Library
Clapham Road
Lowestoft NR32 1DR
website - www.suffolkcc.gov.uk/libraries

They are recorded as having the following

Merchant Registers 1852-1994
Some Crew Lists and Ship's Papers

Fishing Vessel Registers 1902-1946

All Best, Raymond

treeve
9th January 2008, 17:57
I should add that some of the Shipping Registry entries may
cover some Fishing Vessels before 1904.

treeve
9th January 2008, 18:33
I have another tack ... what was your Paternal Great Grandmother's
maiden name? How old was she when she married?
And your Paternal Great Grandfather's name and age at marriage?

GY177
9th January 2008, 20:29
Hi Raymond,

Many thanks for the info.

It sounds like looking through the registers and shipping records, for an individual, would be like looking for a needle in a haystackÖ and very time consuming :(.

There are John Kents in the census returns, but none that really feel like they are the correct ones (wrong occupations, ages etc.) In actual fact, I can only find my Great Grandparents (The ones born and married in Lowestoft) on the 1901 census, after they had got married and moved to Grimsby. I cannot find either of their births in the BMD indexes, so cannot send for their birth certs; which would give an address and maybe confirm my GG Grandfather was a Sailor or Fisherman.

Some time this year I am planning a trip to Lowestoft Records Office, to look through the Baptism records. Whilst I am there, I could also look through the other records you mentioned. Like you say, itís a puzzle, and I havenít got many pieces at the moment!

Thanks for the pointer to the CLIP website Ė I didnít know about that one.

Regards,

Dean.

treeve
9th January 2008, 21:12
It sounds like looking through the registers and shipping records, for an individual, would be like looking for a needle in a haystackÖ and very time consuming . ..
It is !!!! I have done it for four people now. But of course it is easier with the images I have photographed.

The only fact you can hang on to is the name John Kent. Age entered varies and was varied by the informer as well as by the census rules and the enumerator. People changed jobs. As I said, you need to collect all of the possiblites and try and see if anything else you know could possibly fit. Naming patterns for example.

Best of luck with the research, but I would suggest that you do not ignore anyone - I had one occasion when I actually wrote down the entire county population of a family and sifted through until by elimination I found that the man had given his name incorrectly on purpose. The factors around him had not changed (wife's name and children's names, etc). It was either his age and increment or place of birth that "gave him away".

Best Wishes, Raymond

GY177
9th January 2008, 21:14
I have another tack ... what was your Paternal Great Grandmother's
maiden name? How old was she when she married?
And your Paternal Great Grandfather's name and age at marriage?
Iíve attached a mini tree showing my Great Grandparents details. Emmaís Father was called Frederick, a Traveller, not that that helpsÖ I canít find him on the census either!

Iíve covered all the angles I can think of and the only option left is to go to the Lowestoft RO and hopefully find some Baptism detailsÖ unless Iíve missed something obvious.

Thanks,

Dean.

treeve
9th January 2008, 21:21
It is always obvious !!
My grandfather gave his name as being "John", however, by an intense countrywide search I found his father, named "Isaac" !! Plain fact was that my grandfather had run away from home and had no memory of his father, so made it up because the registry entry demanded it. He had also entered his father as being a "labourer", turned out he was a tailor !!
Sherlock Holmes could not have solved that one - All Best, Raymond

treeve
9th January 2008, 21:53
I have found your John William Frank Kent and his wife in the 1901 census.
He chose the name of Frank as first name. They were living in Cleethorpes.
In the same way, that may be the reason you cannot find other entries.

GY177
9th January 2008, 23:26
I have found your John William Frank Kent and his wife in the 1901 census.
He chose the name of Frank as first name. They were living in Cleethorpes.
Yes, thatís them. My grandfather, Thomas, was 1 in that census. He became a Fisherman, and was on Steam Trawler Howe GY177 when she was shipwrecked off Bear Island in 1931.

In the same way, that may be the reason you cannot find other entries.That's trueÖ and OK on your "John" & "Isaac"... they havenít made it easy for us have they!

Cheers for now,

Dean.

treeve
10th January 2008, 02:36
Thoughts .. were Thomas Kent's siblings
Kathleen Olive Kent, born Dec qtr 1895 in Mutford Registry 4a 942
and
Frank Henry Kent born Dec qtr 1893 also in Mutford Registry 4a 916
The 1901 shows that they were born in Lowestoft area.
The sight of the certificates should give a little more information
on their parents.

GY177
10th January 2008, 10:26
Raymond, thanks for taking the time looking these up. Yes, they are Thomasís siblings. I have both certs, but apart from confirming their parents names (John William Frank KENT & Emma KENT, formerly BROWN) the only additional information they give me is addresses in Kirkley Ė different for each child.

The only other information I have, taken from John & Emmaís marriage cert, is the witnesses Ė Kate BROWN and Thomas HALES, and John and Emmaís addresses at the time of the marriage Ė 8 Raglan St, Lowestoft for Emma and Raingate St, Bury St Edmunds for John. I looked up both names and addresses on the census but didnít glean any information from them either!

I think the answer lies with the baptism recordsÖ at least Iím hoping so! I was told, on another forum, that although civil registration started in 1837, it was not compulsory to register a birth until the mid 1870ís. Many parents just opted to have their children baptised and were satisfied with that.

... I need to arrange that trip to Lowestoft!

Regards,

Dean.

treeve
10th January 2008, 11:43
Excellent, that means that you look in the 1891 census for a Katherine/Catherine Brown AND an Emma living in the same household, In that area. You now have Christian names to look for, as there was more often than not a naming pattern. Some areas actually had family rules on the subject. The church records will also be in the area, to be checked. You need to make enquiries as to where they are kept. I was lucky in one search I made for someone else (in Canada) - found his seamen and his whole family back to 1570 or so. Best of Luck, Raymond

Fiesty Fay
12th January 2008, 13:24
I have been researching my family tree also, I have used the international genealogy index which is run by the mormen church you might find something on there too, the other sites are ones i have subscribed to genes reunited and ancestry.com, i have had more success with genes reunited than ancestry.com. Hope the info is of some use.

Regards Fay

treeve
12th January 2008, 13:32
Hello Fay, only thing I would add to that is to make sure that you only read the original parish records transcripted, as many which have been entered by well meaning subscribers are incorrect and at time extremely misleading. Avoid wishful thinking entries. I found two completely fictional parents to an uncle of mine who was born out of wedlock because my grandmother was raped as a 14 year old... added to which I also found completely fictitious great uncles and aunts (some borrowed from another family). The LDS site is a wonderful tool, but, like anything, it can be abused. Best wishes, Raymond

Fiesty Fay
12th January 2008, 15:14
Thanks Raymond, I have come to a full stop on my mothers side atm but my fathers side is still ongoing so thanks for the head's up on that, the sites I mentioned were just another place to look, and the contacts that have come up on my mothers side so far have checked out.

Cheers

Fay

Lord Hood
14th January 2008, 08:36
Anybody requiring information about Lowestoft fishing vessels and ships built there should contact the following:

Suffolk County Council
Lowestoft Record Office
Lowestoft Central Library
16 Clapham Road
Lowestoft
NR32 1DR

Telephone: 01502 405357 (Searchroom)

They over 14,000 photographs of Lowestoft ships there and thousands of records of fishing and other vessels.

The staff there provide an excellent service.

GY177
14th January 2008, 11:43
Not been on for a few days so Iíve missed the last few posts.

Excellent, that means that you look in the 1891 census for a Katherine/Catherine Brown AND an Emma living in the same household, In that area...

Raymond Ė Iíve tried that route but found nothing. The only names Iíve found are either servants, boarders or visitors; and not visiting same named relatives either. The only family I have found together (and itís only a possibility) are in the 1871 census where an Emma BROWN (5) and a Frederick BROWN (2) Ė probably her brother, possibly named after their father, are visitors. Iíve been going round in circles with this branch for a few years now, but hopefully the parish records will provide the key and all the pieces will fall into place.


I have been researching my family tree also, I have used the international genealogy index which is run by the mormen church you might find something on there too, the other sites are ones i have subscribed to genes reunited and ancestry.com, i have had more success with genes reunited than ancestry.com. Hope the info is of some use. Regards Fay

Fay Ė Iíve tried the IGI on the LDS site but drew a blank on there. I also subscribe to Genes Reunited & ancestry.co.uk. Iíve had no response from GR on these particular ancestors although I have made some good contacts regarding others. Iím not really a huge fan of GR though; Iíve found that some people on there are only interesting in collecting names - when you give them access to your tree they just copy everybody, including the one that are not related to themselves. For that reason I only post a basic tree on there. I know of a few people that have had problems like this, and also some of the correspondence can be less than polite. Nevertheless, it is a useful tool and I have had some good information through it.

If I get any further Iíll let you know - it would be nice to confirm my GG Grandfather was a Sailor or Fisherman from Lowestoft. The sea is a recurring theme in my family history Ė I have a Sailmaker, who moved to Grimsby from Barking, when the fish docks opened in the 1850ís. Quite a few Fishermen from Grimsby, and also Wainfleet (which Iíll start another thread on) plus a Fisherman from Seahouses Ė all ripe for further research!

Regards,

Dean.