melrose abbey

m1000
5th February 2007, 13:57
Is there anyone can tell the whole story of this ship:
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum/Old%20Ship%20Picture%20Gallery/M/slides/Melrose%20Abbey%20(3).html
Thanks in advance

hawkey01
5th February 2007, 18:05
M1000,

I believe this is the vessel you are interest in.
She was one of convoy ON-154 which sailed December 1942.
Letter 'O' denoted an outward bound convoy from Great Britain and 'N' destination North America. It was also a designated slow convoy with ships unable to maintain speed above 10 knots. In total 45 vessel plus their escorts. This convoy was attacked and 15 vessels with a total of more than 1,077 men aboard were sunk, 512 lost their lives and 565 survivors.
Melrose Abbey was registered in Leith, 2,473 Grt. She had postion 101 in the convoy. A total crew of 29 plus 5 Dems Gunners. Her voyage was from the Tyne to Trinidad with 3500 tons of coal and 700 tons of Christmas mail. She was torpedoed and sunk by U356 commanded by Lt Ruppelt at 0235hrs Dec 27th 1942 in position 47.30n 24.30w in the Atlantic. There were 27 survivors rescued by RS Toward. Casualties 6 crew and 1 dems gunner.
The crew lost were;
Lamuel Charles de Clark 33 - fireman - SAfrica.
Lionel Joseph Grish - 28 - Asst stwd - Dagenham.
George Duncan Harley - 28 - Cook.
George Alfred Frank May - 28 - Fireman/trimmer.
Robert Duncan Mcghee - 19 - Steward - Edinburgh
Charles Harvey A Mudie - 51 - Ch/Eng - Manchester.
The gunners name is not mentioned.
May they RIP.

If you would like to read the whole details of the convoy and ships go to the following web site www.gordonmumford.com/ons-154.htm

Regards
Hawkey01(Frogger)

ray1buck1
5th February 2007, 18:47
M1000
There is the Uboat report http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/2532.html
Ray

ARTHURHARVEY
5th February 2007, 21:15
When I came to the Humber in 1953 the old Melrose Abbey was trading from Hull to Rotterdam, this was the ship that was a tail end charlie in convoys,tasked to pick up survivors, a fellow captain was the second mate during that period, he has since crossed the bar.The was operated by Associate Humber Lines, a new Malrose abbey was built and continue to operate the service along with the bolton abbey; cannot remember the date the line ceased.

ARTHURHARVEY
5th February 2007, 21:45
The Melrose Abbey was built in 1929 and as stated was a rescue ship for convoys 1941-45; in 1958 she was renmed Melrose Abbey 11 and in 1959
sold to the Greeks and renamed KRITI.It appears that there must have been two ships with the same name, how confusing.
The A.H.L. replace both the Melrose and Bolton Abbey with new ships but eventually lost their trade to the North Sea Ferries and went out of business in 1971.

m1000
5th February 2007, 21:51
She doesn't seem to be the same ship...?!
Can anyone exclude she's the following?:
see LR entry in the attachment triton maris.jpg

M1000
There is the Uboat report http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/2532.html
Ray

ray1buck1
5th February 2007, 22:56
Have a look at this link
http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/ship/list
Put in Melrose Abbey in search box
Ray

m1000
5th February 2007, 23:38
I'm conscious there were many: the point is to determine which is the one in the photo, with a deck cargo of timber.

Have a look at this link
http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/ship/list
Put in Melrose Abbey in search box
Ray

hawkey01
6th February 2007, 12:35
M1000,
Morning,
I have down loaded both the photos now, the Melrose Abbey which was sunk in 1942 and your photo. They are not the same vessel. I would suggest that yours is an earlier vessel. I will do some more searching and see if I can come up with any info. Also reference the Rescue Ship Melrose Abbey, it is correct that there were two vessels at that time with the same name.
Regards
Hawkey01

hawkey01
6th February 2007, 13:52
M1000

I have been hunting around and the only info I can come up with is similar to ArthurHarvey. There were two vessels called Melrose Abbey as I stated. The picture you showed is not of the Melrose Abbey of Currie Line, which was sunk by the Uboat. You can see both of them on the Photoship site. I can only find one other Melrose Abbey which was requisitioned by the Navy during WW2 and became the RS/HMS Melrose Abbey. This vessel was built in 1929. She belonged to the Hull & Netherlands Steam Ship Co. which were managed by Associated Humber lines from 1935. There is a company logo on her funnel but I cannot make it out The Associated Humber Line funnel and flag was A
H L
but I would not like to say that is what is on the funnel. Sorry I cannot help further.

Regards
Hawkey01

Hugh Ferguson
6th February 2007, 16:08
The Melrose Abbey was built in 1929 and as stated was a rescue ship for convoys 1941-45; in 1958 she was renmed Melrose Abbey 11 and in 1959
sold to the Greeks and renamed KRITI.It appears that there must have been two ships with the same name, how confusing.
The A.H.L. replace both the Melrose and Bolton Abbey with new ships but eventually lost their trade to the North Sea Ferries and went out of business in 1971.

Correct! She was built by Earle's, Hull in 1929; 1900 tons, length 282x38, 14 knots to carry 116 passengers. Taken up for rescue service Mar.1941; operational from 11th Feb.1942 in 42 convoys and rescued a total of 86 survivors.

On the 27th Dec.1942 another Melrose Abbey was torpedoed in convoy ONS154 and 26 of her crew were rescued by the TOWARD, Capt. G.K.Hudson. From this convoy the TOWARD rescued no fewer than 163 survivors and at this stage was ordered not to take anymore survivors on board.

I have a profile of the Melrose Abbey which, if requested, I will post in the Gallery.

Hugh Ferguson
6th February 2007, 17:04
See in the Gallery for an outline image of this ship. It will appear in the Special Purpose file.

m1000
6th February 2007, 17:20
To tell the whole truth I'm still in the fog: let me try to focus the real question.
I suspect (hope) the pic represents the following ship:
http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/ship/show/7233?search_op=OR&shipname=franz+horn&page=1&IDNo=&number=
Single Ship Report for "FRANZ HORN"
IDNo: 1136759 Name: FRANZ HORN Year: 1898 Builder: Neptun AG Country of build: Link: Ship Design: Location of yard: Rostock Yard No: 171 Keel: Launch Date: Date of completion: 6.98 Type: Cargo ship Tons: 1509 Naval or paramilitary marking : DWT: Length overall: LPP: 74.9 Beam: 10.8 Number of screws/Mchy/Speed(kn): 1T-8.5 Material of build: Owner as Completed: H.C.Horn, Schleswig Flag: GE Subsequent History:
15 MELROSE ABBEY - 19 SOUTHFORD - 19 GIBEL HAMAM - 25 IULIA MANTACA - 27 TRITON - 32 TRITON MARIS
Disposal Data:
BU Genoa 23.5.56

If true the ship whose photo I'm going to upload (i.e. TRITON MARIS) should be the same; is there anyone that can confirm/exclude?
m1000

Hugh Ferguson
6th February 2007, 19:38
To tell the whole truth I'm still in the fog: let me try to focus the real question.
I suspect (hope) the pic represents the following ship:
http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/ship/show/7233?search_op=OR&shipname=franz+horn&page=1&IDNo=&number=
Single Ship Report for "FRANZ HORN"
IDNo: 1136759 Name: FRANZ HORN Year: 1898 Builder: Neptun AG Country of build: Link: Ship Design: Location of yard: Rostock Yard No: 171 Keel: Launch Date: Date of completion: 6.98 Type: Cargo ship Tons: 1509 Naval or paramilitary marking : DWT: Length overall: LPP: 74.9 Beam: 10.8 Number of screws/Mchy/Speed(kn): 1T-8.5 Material of build: Owner as Completed: H.C.Horn, Schleswig Flag: GE Subsequent History:
15 MELROSE ABBEY - 19 SOUTHFORD - 19 GIBEL HAMAM - 25 IULIA MANTACA - 27 TRITON - 32 TRITON MARIS
Disposal Data:
BU Genoa 23.5.56

If true the ship whose photo I'm going to upload (i.e. TRITON MARIS) should be the same; is there anyone that can confirm/exclude?
m1000

I would say, unquestionably, not the same ship as in your first posting.
Sorry to have caused confusion by introducing another Melrose Abbey into the debate-obviously the rescue ship is a different ship altogether.

m1000
6th February 2007, 20:49
Thank you Hugh, for your unquestionable conclusion.
Maybe I generated some confusion in the thread, due to my poor knowledge of the tools available in this forum.
Is there anyone that can definitely identify the MELROSE ABBEY in my 1st pic among those in this list?:
http://www.miramarshipindex.org.nz/ship/list
Table 1. The search results for melrose abbey.
ON LR/IMO ID Year Name Tons Change Starke Ref. Main Owner
34491 1877 MELROSE ABBEY 1265
136759 1136759 1898 MELROSE ABBEY 1509 1915 V1898 #212 F.Jones
112618 1112618 1899 MELROSE ABBEY 1095 1918 V1899 #575 F.Jones & Co
129530 1129530 1910 MELROSE ABBEY 2727 1919 V1910 #540 F.Jones & Co
139193 1139193 1917 MELROSE ABBEY 1256 1924 V1917 #696 F.Jones & Sons
160830 5196830 1929 MELROSE ABBEY 1908 V1929 #444
160830 5196830 1929 MELROSE ABBEY II 1908 1958 V1929 #444
162109 1162109 1936 MELROSE ABBEY 2472 V1936 #347
5231862 5231862 1959 MELROSE ABBEY 2741 V1959 #495

Thank you all
m1000

dundalkie
6th February 2007, 21:17
Melrose Abbey - Build at Earls Yaed at Hull for the Hull and Netherlands Steamshio Co took delivery in April 1929. L=281'- 3'' B38'-3'' Draught 17'-3''. Taken over by AHL(?) in 1958 and renamed Melrose Abbey II ( a new ship was built and named Melrose Abbey. Sold to Typaldus Bros Piraeus and renamed Kriti. Ultimate fate unknown. Source Railway and other Steamers.

ARTHURHARVEY
7th February 2007, 08:19
The photo is not the Melrose Abbey that was a rescue ship which ahd passenger cabins.

Dave Edge
7th February 2007, 08:56
m1000,
Your original photo shows the "Melrose Abbey" built in 1936 by William Grey, West Hartlepool, for Melrose Abbey Shipping Co Ltd (Frederick Jones and Company), Cardiff. She was 2,473 grt and frequently employed in the timber trades. In 1942 she was sold to James Currie, Leith, but, because of war regulations, was not allowed to be renamed. On her first voyage for Curries she was torpedoed and sunk by U356 with the loss of 7 crew.

hawkey01
7th February 2007, 12:21
M1000
I am sorry but I do not agree with Dave Edge that the first of your photos is of the Curries "Melrose Abbey", please refer to the picture on the site that Ray1Buck1 posted. Also it does not seem that it is the RS Melrose Abbey which Arthurharvey has shown in his posting in Special purpose vessels. That vessel has a lot of characteristics of the Currie vessel. I still believe it is an earlier vessel but as I said previously I cannot find it.

Regards
Hawkey01

Hugh Ferguson
7th February 2007, 12:48
The funnel insignia in the original image are not in accord with either those of Frederick Jones & Sons, Cardiff, or of James Currie, Leith. The former is a black funnel with a redband, and the latter is a black funnel with a white band.
The 1936 Melrose Abbey (sunk by U.356 in convoy ONS.154) appears to have a grey painted funnel with a white band and a black top, and I would suggest, is definitely not the same ship as in the original image.

m1000
7th February 2007, 16:09
I'm not an expert in identification, but let me try to fix some points...
In the attachment I've collected data pertaining to the 5 possible solutions of the puzzle:
1. M.A. built in 1898 (o.n. FRANZ HORN) (my option/hope)
2. M.A. built in 1899 (o.n. SOUTHWOOD)
3. M.A. built in 1910 (o.n. SYNDIC)
4. M.A. built in 1929 (used as a rescue ship in WW2)
5. M.A. built in 1936 (sunk 12-'42, while in ON154-convoy)
Till now all efforts were dedicated to numbers 4 and 5, that sailed as M.A. for a longer period of time, with a final exit that is at least controversial; but if we date the original photo during or at the end of WW1, it could be one of the other 3, that sailed as M.A. for shorter periods.
What do you think?

hawkey01
7th February 2007, 18:33
M1000
I still believe that the ship is one of the older ones but as yet no proof. The only thing I have found today is as follows.
Frederick Jones born 1868 set up his own shipping business in 1906 with the ship Melrose Abbey. Unfortunately it gave no particulars of the ship. This was Frederick Jones & Co Cardiff.

Hawkey01

Dave Edge
7th February 2007, 22:35
The "Melrose Abbey" shown on the site quoted by Ray1Buck1 is the Associated Humber Lines' ship, not the Frederick Jones' one to which the accompanying details apply. "Sea Breezes" for January 1981 has two photo's of the Jones' "Melrose Abbey" which appears identical to the original picture from m1000. Jones' ships were very old-fashioned looking but note that she has a full rather than counter stern.

Hugh Ferguson
8th February 2007, 09:26
The "Melrose Abbey" shown on the site quoted by Ray1Buck1 is the Associated Humber Lines' ship, not the Frederick Jones' one to which the accompanying details apply. "Sea Breezes" for January 1981 has two photo's of the Jones' "Melrose Abbey" which appears identical to the original picture from m1000. Jones' ships were very old-fashioned looking but note that she has a full rather than counter stern.

It would be interesting to know if there is any indication of the funnel markings in this photo. A Frederick Jone's funnel should be black with a red band. A search through my 1941 copy of Talbot-Booth's, Ships and the Sea, which lists 1124 funnels, fails to come up with one displaying the markings shown in m1000's photograph (apparently a simple cross in a white square).
I had noted the full stern and wondered if such construction had existed as early as 1898.
Is it possible that Frederick Jones had only just acquired this ship (war reparations?), and hadn't got around to painting the funnel? That might be a tack to follow.

Dave Edge
12th February 2007, 10:09
Hugh,
Despite her appearance I am in no doubt this is the vessel built by Greys for Frederick Jones in 1936. I agree with your comments about the funnel colours, perhaps charterers colours?

poverf
25th May 2012, 01:05
(A)When I came to the Humber in 1953 the old Melrose Abbey was trading from Hull to Rotterdam, this was the ship that was a tail end charlie in convoys,tasked to pick up survivors, a fellow captain was the second mate during that period, he has since crossed the bar.The was operated by Associate Humber Lines, a new Malrose abbey was built and continue to operate the service along with the bolton abbey; cannot remember the date the line ceased.

melrose abbey -I sailed on this ship in 1970 as galley boy

poverf
25th May 2012, 01:07
The "Melrose Abbey" shown on the site quoted by Ray1Buck1 is the Associated Humber Lines' ship, not the Frederick Jones' one to which the accompanying details apply. "Sea Breezes" for January 1981 has two photo's of the Jones' "Melrose Abbey" which appears identical to the original picture from m1000. Jones' ships were very old-fashioned looking but note that she has a full rather than counter stern.

melrose abbey -I sailed on this ship in 1970 as galley boy

A.D.FROST
25th May 2012, 13:44
MELROSE ABBEY was the last of AHL's ships on the Hull-Rotterdam run which was turminated on 1.11.1971 and she was sold to the Greeks along with the BOLTON ABBEY for 135,000

A.D.FROST
25th May 2012, 16:15
Is there anyone can tell the whole story of this ship:
http://www.photoship.co.uk/JAlbum/Old%20Ship%20Picture%20Gallery/M/slides/Melrose%20Abbey%20(3).html
Thanks in advance

To help with photo.recognition F.Jones Melrose Abbey'36 had 2 sisterships Magam Abbey'38 and Tintern Abbey'3927646

Nocturne
25th May 2012, 21:43
Hi.
No way this one is built as late as 1936. I would concentrate on the ones from
1898, 1899, 1910 and may be as late as 1917. My guess would be the one
built in 1910. Miramar is usually updated, so I doubt more wil pop up.
Good hunting.

Abbeyline
30th September 2012, 19:17
I am the Great grandson of the owner of the Melrose Abbey which I think you are refering to, but am unable to view the picture. If it was the Melrose Abbey then she was the sixth ship to have that name in the companys history.
Melrose Abbey (1) built 1877 1211 tons owned by F Jones 1907-09 wreaked
Melrose Abbey (2) built 1898 1457 tons owned by F Jones 1915-18 sold
Melrose Abbey (3) built 1899 1095 tons owned by F Jones 1918-19 sold
Melrose Abbey (4) built 1910 2737 tons owned by F Jones 1919-22 sold
Melrose Abbey (5) built 1917 1256 tons owned by F Jones 1924-26 sunk
Melrose Abbey (6) built 1936 2473 tons owned by F Jones 1936-42 sunk

If I can be of any more help then please let me know. This information is all listed in the book "The Abbey Line" by P.M. Heaton

Abbeyline
30th September 2012, 19:51
A picture here of Melrose Abbey (6)