Pilotage Exemption Certificates - Page 6 - Ships Nostalgia
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Pilotage Exemption Certificates

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  #126  
Old 22nd February 2012, 14:32
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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The question is sometimes asked, "Why does marine pilotage still exist as a profession, at all?"

At least one person asking the question has been heard to point out that no equivalent exists in the aeronautical world; and that a fully-fledged aviator is qualified to land at any airport in the world. The response to that point has been made, "And at what altitude would you suggest that a local pilot should be put on board?"

I merely offer the observation here that the provisions relating to compulsory pilotage in the maritime world are not created by serving pilots, never have been and are never likely to be. They are created by the public legislature in the interests of the rest of us.
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  #127  
Old 22nd February 2012, 18:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie Youde View Post
The question is sometimes asked, "Why does marine pilotage still exist as a profession, at all?"

At least one person asking the question has been heard to point out that no equivalent exists in the aeronautical world; and that a fully-fledged aviator is qualified to land at any airport in the world. The response to that point has been made, "And at what altitude would you suggest that a local pilot should be put on board?"

I merely offer the observation here that the provisions relating to compulsory pilotage in the maritime world are not created by serving pilots, never have been and are never likely to be. They are created by the public legislature in the interests of the rest of us.
A professional denigrator no doubt and a clueless one at that: see Post 110.
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  #128  
Old 22nd February 2012, 19:44
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Hi, Hugh,

#110

The man who observes that Exemption Certificates are rarely issued to masters of ocean-going ships is probably quite right. He fails, however, to mention the fact that ocean-going shipmasters rarely apply; and, in most cases, would have some difficulty (for obvious reasons) in acquiring the necessary local experience which is a fundamental requisite of any pilotage qualification. Most ocean-going shipmasters (and their owners) are equipped with the intelligence to understand that regulated standards apply to pilotage qualification (just as they apply to qualifications for gas fitters and brain surgeons); and if the applicant can see that he cannot meet the stipulated standards then it may quite reasonably be assumed that he also has the intelligence not to waste everybody's time in making an application.
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  #129  
Old 22nd February 2012, 22:57
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Pilotage

In my latter years sailing on the Great lakes we frequently used to back haul iron ore from Sept Iles or Point Noir.
We were required to take a pilot and tug for berthing and undocking.
The Lakes shipping companies argued that their masters did all the maneuvering in the "lakes" and should be exempt.
They got their wish and as master you were told to do it without pilots or tugs.
O.K. but when I asked about compensation for doing it as the shipowners saved a substantial amount of money I was informed that it was your job and was expected.
I was amazed at how often the weather was adverse for docking and delays incurred!

Last edited by lakercapt : 23rd February 2012 at 17:56. Reason: spelling
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  #130  
Old 22nd February 2012, 23:08
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#129

Hi, Lakercapt!

I'm told that bears defecate in the woods, too!
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  #131  
Old 23rd February 2012, 08:31
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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It might be worthwhile to point out here that the national and international pilotage legislation is not intended merely to provide a living for pilots, nor to irritate or cause inconvenience to shipmasters, shipowners, harbourmasters nor any others whose own operations might be affected by it; and neither is it intended to create any closed shop.

The legislation exists solely for the protection of the national and international economy against the consequences of faulty navigation. It is because the pilotage legislation designates and creates areas in which pilotage is compulsory with financial charges levied in respect thereof that the law also calls for the highest possible standards in those specific areas. (Environment Agency v Milford Haven Port Authority [the SEA EMPRESS], Cardiff Crown Court, as confirmed and approved by the Lord Chief Justice in the Court of Criminal Appeal, April 2000.) The visiting shipmaster is obliged to take at face value (he has no other alternative) the qualifications and experience of his pilot; thus giving rise to the most serious obligations on the part of the port authorities which grant pilotage authorisations (as pilots' licences are today known) in any compulsory area.

As to being a closed shop, pilotage is no more a closed shop than any other profession or occupation in which qualifications are required as a matter of law; an immediate and obvious example of which is the profession of the foreign-going shipmaster. The "father and son" aspect which has existed and still does exist in pilotage is nothing more than coincidence. There have been a good many pilots' sons who have been dismissed from service because they could not make the grade in training.

In recent years, standards in pilotage (and the value thereof) worldwide have been greatly enhanced by the introduction at Lloyd's Register of the International Standard for Pilotage Organisations.
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  #132  
Old 23rd February 2012, 09:34
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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It might also be right to point out, en passant, that three of the most frequent causes of fault in close-quarters navigation are (i) excess of confidence and (ii) misplaced confidence and (iii) plain ignorance. Know nowt, fear nowt. Crunch.
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  #133  
Old 23rd February 2012, 13:57
Spurling Pipe Spurling Pipe is offline
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Originally Posted by Barrie Youde View Post

As to being a closed shop, pilotage is no more a closed shop than any other profession or occupation in which qualifications are required as a matter of law; an immediate and obvious example of which is the profession of the foreign-going shipmaster. The "father and son" aspect which has existed and still does exist in pilotage is nothing more than coincidence. There have been a good many pilots' sons who have been dismissed from service because they could not make the grade in training.
You must be joking! Liverpool Pilotage was the most incestuous organisation in the UK. AS for qualifications, I don't recall them having any except for maybe Mate (HT) until 1970 when a certain JB was sent up for Second Mates (FG). Things have changed but that is due to chance rather than design.
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  #134  
Old 23rd February 2012, 15:00
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Hi, Spurling Pipe,

Many thanks for your interest. Please allow me to inform you further.

Qualifications have been required of pilots for longer than they have been required of any other class of mariner. Compulsory examinations at Liverpool were introduced in 1766, some 75 years or so before the Board of Trade introduced certification for other mariners. Qualifications were required for pilots at other ports long before 1766.

At the time you mention (1970) the system throughout UK was governed by the Pilotage Act of 1913. Under the Act, Bye-Laws were made which governed the entire apprenticeship system. The minimum requirements before a Third Class (i.e. the most junior) licence could be granted were that an applicant had to show five years of service and have reached the age of 23. During each year of apprenticeship, preliminary examinations were required before an Examination Committee comprised of a senior pilot, the Superintendent of Pilotage and a Master Mariner appointed by the Board of Trade. Failure to pass any preliminary examination at any stage resulted in automatic dismissal, whatever might have been the apprentice's ancestry. During my own apprenticeship my recollection is that all too many failed to make the grade.

Further examinations were required before the same panel prior to the grant of Second Class and First Class licence, with regulated standards of experience also be met.

As to change by chance rather than design, that is simply not true. With the disappearance of the old apprenticeship system, the serving pilots themselves have ensured that each Liverpool Pilot today holds a Class 1 STCW certificate (Masters Foreign-Going). The recent award of Lloyd's International Standard is a thing which has been achieved following much effort from the pilots themselves and no contribution at all from the harbour authority.

It is a particular delight to let you know that even today there are several pilots' sons in the Service: and I'm only too conscious of the privilege which I once held myself in that regard.

Closed shop it is not and never was. Entry into the Service has only ever been a matter of being in the right place at the right time with the right qualifications.

Hoping this might help you,

BY

Last edited by Barrie Youde : 23rd February 2012 at 15:30. Reason: correction
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  #135  
Old 23rd February 2012, 16:03
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Further as to the "closed shop" point, many people have lingered under the same misapprehension as Spurling-Pipe, above. Please let me explain:-

Entry into the Pilot Service at Liverpool was open (in accordance with the Bye-Laws) to any boy making an application between the ages of 16 and 16 and a half. He simply needed to write to the Superintendent of Pilotage. If the Superintendent was satisfied with the letter of Application then the boy would be invited to appear before the Selection Committee which met about every six months, for selection by competitive interview. The Selection Committee was chaired by a Master Mariner representing the Board of Trade. Many applied. Even more (including some pilots' sons) were rejected. The successful ones were then accepted into the apprenticeship system.

My own father was not a pilot's son. In 1925-27 he was a Conway cadet, contemplating a career in the Royal Navy, when the Superintendent of Pilotage paid a visit to the ship by way of a recruiting drive - with the express intention of improving the intake into the Service. (This my very proud Grandmother told me. Dad never mentioned it.) Be that as it may, my Dad joined the Service directly from HMS Conway. Whether or not he ever improved the Service is for others to judge. I know that he never let it down.
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  #136  
Old 23rd February 2012, 18:15
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Ever since this thread took off I have been very surprised at the animosity, expressed by more than a few, against pilots.
Casting my mind back to as long ago as 1955 I cannot call to mind any such feelings expressed to me in any of the thousands of ships I found myself in as a pilot.
Just two that could be described as personal, occurred, one in a German ship and the other on board an Everard.
The latter was an Everard arriving London from a voyage that took her out of Home waters and as a result was compulsory, according to the Bye Laws.
The master, obviously disgruntled, because he was licenced and well able to have done the job himself-he had probably been in and out of the Thames more times than I had! But Bye Laws are Bye Laws and the pilots don't make them so why take it out on somebody who was merely obeying them.
The German master in a good natured manner said to me, 'You look very young to be a pilot' I was 28 years old and probably half his age.

Those are the only personalities that I ever recall being levelled at me during many years and in many ships, so why does it occur now; jealousy, envy?
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  #137  
Old 23rd February 2012, 19:05
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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At the risk of further hand-bagging, the following might be of interest, taken from “A History of the Liverpool Pilot Service” by JS Rees, published by the Southport Guardian in 1949:-

‘EXAMINATION OF MASTERS AND MATES FOR THE MERCHANT SERVICE

In 1844 an enquiry was received from the Admiralty as to whether the Pilot Committee would be willing to undertake the duty of examining the competency of Masters and Mates for the Merchant Service, but having regard to the onerous nature of their existing duties the Committee respectfully declined to shoulder any additional responsibilities. Nevertheless, in 1845, an Order of the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty’s Privy Council for Trade, constituted the Liverpool Pilotage Commissioners, a board for the voluntary examination of masters and mates employed in the merchant service, and an announcement to that effect appeared in the local press. It therefore became necessary for the Pilotage Commissioners to determine what measures they should take in the circumstances.

At a meeting they held, it was contended that the Act commenced at the wrong end; and that the best course would be to establish a school for navigation, and that it was unlikely that many masters and mates “who must be presumed to be good seamen” would present themselves for examination, however, they decided to nominate a board of examiners. The Order was made under the Authority of an Act of the previous session [of Parliament] to come into force on 1st November 1845 and provided that no person was to be examined as a master under 21 and as a mate under 19 years of age. He had to be sober and well conducted, write a good legible hand, and understand the first five rules of arithmetic. The fee for a master was 2 and for a mate 1.

No evidence has been found that the Pilot Committee became involved in these examinations, if any took place.

Under the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854 it was made compulsory for for masters and mates of foreign-going ships or home trade passenger ships to hold either a “Certificate of Competency” secured by passing an examination or a “ Certificate of Service” granted on proof being furnished that the applicant had previous service as master or mate, in accordance with the requirements set forth in the Act.’

As the Pilotage Commissioners at Liverpool had been deemed competent by the Admiralty as long previously as 1845 to examine masters and mates for the merchant service (who at the time were not obliged to hold any qualification at all), it is a bit rich for anybody to suggest that by 1970 the same body was not competent to examine pilots adequately or appropriately.
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  #138  
Old 23rd February 2012, 19:10
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Hi, Hugh,

I qualified as a pilot at the age of 23!

The German master of the Eilenau was about six foot eight and 40 years older than me! To my mere six foot one, he was quite terrifying, but perfectly civil after the dust had settled.
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  #139  
Old 23rd February 2012, 19:34
Spurling Pipe Spurling Pipe is offline
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Hi, Hugh,

I qualified as a pilot at the age of 23!

.
And pray tell what seagoing qualifications did you hold at this young age and, what do you hold know?
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  #140  
Old 23rd February 2012, 20:53
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Dear Spurling Pipe,

It is very kind of you to ask.

My seagoing qualifications at the age of 23 in 1966 are as set out (I hope) in #134 above, i.e a Third Class Pilot's Licence with the addition of a Mate's Home Trade Certificate.

Subsequently in 1968 after further examination I was granted a Second Class Licence.

In 1971 after further examination I was granted a First Class Licence.

In 1976, having held a First Class Licence for five years I was granted a Senior First Class (or unrestricted) Licence which I held until I retired from pilotage in 1988.

Having held a Pilot's licence for 22 years I retired in 1988. Throughout that period my navigation/pilotage was never questioned beyond the damage-report stage; and I was never required to appear before the Pilotage Committee on any navigational matter.

Is there anything else that you might wish to know?
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  #141  
Old 23rd February 2012, 21:28
Spurling Pipe Spurling Pipe is offline
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Thanks Barrie, I already knew. It's all common knowledge in the Black Horse. Shame the way the Moby Dicks gone. Still with RAWs?
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  #142  
Old 23rd February 2012, 21:33
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Dear Spurling Pipe,

If you wish to contact me at RA Wilkinson & Co, please do.

At your service.

Best wishes,

BY
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  #143  
Old 24th February 2012, 08:15
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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#133 and#141

Dear Spurling Pipe

Please would you explain why you chose to make such defamatory remarks at#133 if as you now say at #141 you knew the true position all along?

Please would you disclose your real name?
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  #144  
Old 24th February 2012, 13:44
Spurling Pipe Spurling Pipe is offline
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Oh, wind your neck in with your defamatory talk! Forever the drama queen.
Used to practice across the river and hold a Masters (FG).

Dave (Mc )
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  #145  
Old 24th February 2012, 15:23
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Dear Dave,

That's the first time I've ever been called a drama queen; but I suppose that there is a first time for everything.

I'm very sorry that you should choose to insult the Pilot Service en bloc - and also to do it from behind the dramatic protection of a false name.

I was very pleased, however, to hear that you eventually secured a Master's FG Cerificate.
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  #146  
Old 24th February 2012, 20:00
Spurling Pipe Spurling Pipe is offline
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Barrie,

Let me assure you my attention was never to insult the Pilot Service en bloc as I too was a Pilot in the Middle East for several years subsequent to several years in command. Having said that, my description of the LPS pre 1970 was accurate. I think we can now draw a line under this, save boring the other members.


Dave
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  #147  
Old 24th February 2012, 22:00
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Dave,

Before we draw a line there remain two points which it would be helpful to clarify.

Firstly, for my own part, I have been accused of many things and have been guilty of very many more. Bi-sexuality has never featured in either category and I am delighted to be the father of two daughters.

Secondly, I'm not at all sure that I have your identity quite right yet. The information which you gave me this morning caused me to believe that you are David McIntosh. Later today I looked at your profile, which said that you went to sea in 1953 and served in several companies, but it did not mention any time in the Pilot Service. The David McIntosh I knew was an apprentice pilot about a year my senior and, in 1953 would have been aged about eleven or twelve at most (and therefore most probably have gone to sea in about 1957 or 1958). ("1953"could of course have been a typo-error.)

I see now that you have removed your background altogether from your profile, saying now only that you are located in Wales - which is some distance from the Black Horse and the Moby Dick which you have also mentioned.

Please forgive me for asking, but are you David McIntosh or are you somebody else?

Last edited by Barrie Youde : 24th February 2012 at 22:03.
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  #148  
Old 26th February 2012, 07:47
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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Our friend Spurling Pipe seems to have wound his neck in following a request to identify himself.

As to family relations in pilotage services throughout the world and the UK in particular, I know of propriety and family loyalty by the bucketful, all of which has been helpful in upholding standards.

I know of some nepotism, too.

But I never did hear of a single case of incest in pilotage anywhere. Nor even the suggestion of it.
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  #149  
Old 26th February 2012, 15:33
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Why does everyone think nepotism is universally a bad 'thing'?

Would I not know vastly more about a candidate if he had been in my family from infancy until job application rather than divined in a sight unseen interview.

I know exactly what my nephew is good for and wouldn't employ him or recommend him outside of that envelope lest it adversely affect either my purse or my reputation.

Last edited by Varley : 27th February 2012 at 00:45.
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  #150  
Old 26th February 2012, 15:53
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is offline  
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I'm not at all sure that "everyone" does think that nepotism is universally a bad thing. There is much in what you say; and I make no secret of the fact I once nurtured the hope to be the beneficiary thereof. In the event, I never was, but I remain hugely grateful and hugely conscious of all other things which I have inherited from my forebears. (I'm sure that most members are similarly grateful to their own forebears for gifts handed down, whether tangible or otherwise.)

There is a further discussion (in the Pilotage thread) on the effects of nepotism and the jealousies which it induced; and the fact that it has now been removed with great benefit to pilotage. I cannot imagine that it ever will be or should be re-introduced.
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