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  #1  
Old 12th April 2017, 21:57
sternchallis sternchallis is offline  
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Combined Masters

My paternal grandfather had a combined Masters Certificate.

Not Deck and ER as today but -

Sail and Steam Deck Certificate. He started off his seagoing career round the coast of Britain on sail cargo vessel , and on the 1911 ( I think) census he was listed as cook, but later he worked his way up and to larger sailing ships getting his masters in sail. When steam came popular they obviously had to take a steam masters, a different way to command a vessel. He was mainly Home Trade and Middle Water European coast.
If he was served a cup of weak tea, he was heard to say," 16 fathoms and a sandy bottom". No doubt his tea was strong enough to stand a spoon in plus sweet with Connie Onnie.
As he was a Hull man, he didn't need a pilot and could pilot his own ship up the Humber into Hull Docks. Before the days of communication equipment his wife knew when he would be docking .

Often he would stop and pick up some crabs or fish from the fishermen off the Dogger Bank on his way home.

He was a 60 a day man yet quite healthy as far as I knew , yet died in a prefab fire going back in to rescue his dog, having got the landlady to safety. The fire was caused by an electrical fault, not smoking in bed ( being used to sailing ships , no doubt he was extra careful) . The prefabs were supposed to be tempory due to the war blitz of Hull, but did not come down until the 70-80's.
He was awarded an MBE for services during the war as a master on coastal convoys. Never did find any detailed official write up.
His last company was Challis Sterne , wine importers from Portugal and Spain.

I followed the maternal side of the family of Engineers.

Now the kids of today have nobody to follow. Unless its Govt sign writer.

Dirty British coaster with the salt caked smoke stack,
Butting through the Channel in the mad March Days,
With a cargo of Tyne coal,
Road rails, pig lead,
Fire wood, iron ware and cheap tin trays.

John Masefield - Cargoes

We have all done that.
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  #2  
Old 13th April 2017, 07:39
chadburn chadburn is offline  
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In those days Steam was considered to be the Auxiliary to Sail along with its use of Steam Winches for Sail Setting until Steam eventually took over as the Propelling Engines gained more power.
The Pre Fabs made from salvaged Aircraft were great little properties and although were meant to be temporary still exist today in various parts of the Country including one at Eden Camp in N. Yorkshire
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  #3  
Old 13th April 2017, 21:44
Dartskipper Dartskipper is offline  
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When my Dad went to sea in 1938, both the Master and Mate of his first ship had combined sail and steam tickets. The master, I believe, had a Master's in sail endorsed for steam. Dad had to learn all the different rigs, and the names of all the sails, of every type of commercial sailing vessel. I remember him reeling off the names of the sails of a full rigged ship, fore to aft.

His first ship was the Shell tanker Cardium, a motor vessel. He never did get to go to sea under sail.
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  #4  
Old 13th April 2017, 21:57
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I remember a radio story about men that went in steam ships and in sail. One I remember was the Master on the poop of his sail vessel in a storm. The Mate was making his first every trip in sail. The Old Man saw the Mate huddled in the scuppers in complete terror. The Old Man growled at the Mate, "You are nothing but a useless steam boat sailor!"


Stephen
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  #5  
Old 13th April 2017, 22:06
Dartskipper Dartskipper is offline  
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A certain retired Master Mariner who lived in Torquay was one of the last men alive to hold a Master's Certificate in sail. He was Commander Lund, who ran a correspondence school for people who wanted to obtain a Yachtmasters' Certificate. If I remember his residence was on Headland Road, Livermead, Torquay. He owned a small gaff rigged vessel, mostly open decked but with a small cuddy forward. He would only ever take her out in a stiffening breeze, with a falling barometer and worsening forecast. If there was a cone up at the Coastguard lookout on Berry Head, so much the better.

He used to sit on the examination board for the Trinity House Out Port of Brixham for masters requiring a pilotage exemption certificate.
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  #6  
Old 13th April 2017, 22:23
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duquesa duquesa is online now   SN Supporter
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I went off to the Panamanian Embassy in New York many years ago to get my Panamanian Certificate (Mates I think). The second and chief engineer and chief steward also went. Later sitting having a beer on board, the chief steward looked at his new certificate and burst out laughing. They had given him a Chief Stewards certificate endorsed for steam and diesel.
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  #7  
Old 13th April 2017, 22:54
sternchallis sternchallis is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duquesa View Post
I went off to the Panamanian Embassy in New York many years ago to get my Panamanian Certificate (Mates I think). The second and chief engineer and chief steward also went. Later sitting having a beer on board, the chief steward looked at his new certificate and burst out laughing. They had given him a Chief Stewards certificate endorsed for steam and diesel.
Well his galley may have had steam Bain Maree or steam jacketed pans or bread oven and the hotplates and ovens could have been diesel fired as the old steam trawlers had, an upgrade from coal fired.
On the cruise ships they probably need a Corgi (or the latest alphabet soup) certificate if they have gas fired ranges or BBQ's, plus the gas blowtorches for the deserts.
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  #8  
Old 13th April 2017, 23:25
Barrie Youde Barrie Youde is online now  
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Sail Gives Way to Steam.


Aha, my boys! You’ll know, my boys! Steam gives way to sail!
By far, my boys! Stout sail enjoys stability in gale!
When faced, my boys, or graced, my boys, to ride the tempest out,
My taste, my boys, well placed, my boys, is sail, without a doubt.

D’you feel, good Sir, men might prefer, more certainty of course?
It’s real, good Sir, please do not err: Now, steam exists perforce.
It fills a need. It gives more speed. It hastens any cargo,
Of market seed or martial steed. None tolerates embargo.

I know, my boys: It’s so, my boys. You will not ever heed me.
Just go, my boys: but know, my boys, that if you ever need me;
I’m here my boys! Good cheer my boys! To each and every feller!
Beware, my boys! Take care, my boys! Keep clear of the propeller!

And so we learned: And so we spurned the grace of long ago.
Paddles turned and fuel was burned, to make the steamship go.
Yet I’ll salute the sailorman who sailed by wind alone
Who nothing knew of radar or the mobile telephone:
Whose compass was magnetic and whose patience was his skill:
Who knew his navigation and who had an iron will:
Whose latitude and longitude were taken from the stars:
Who never dreamed he’d see a cargoful of motor-cars:
Who carried oil in barrels: And who knew no oil in bulk:
Who depended on his parrels, lest his ship become a hulk:
Who might have been a gentleman or might have been a rogue:
Who knew, before the running sea, the value of a drogue:
His log his own advisor as he groped around the coast
In fog. This true survivor-man was never heard to boast.
These are perhaps the reasons why no man should ever fail
To understand the moral of why steam gives way to sail.
Of course, the law has no concern for morals. They’re a dream:
While history suggests that sail has given way to steam.

BY
2012
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  #9  
Old 14th April 2017, 10:08
sternchallis sternchallis is offline  
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Very good Barrie, as always. Thank you.
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  #10  
Old 20th April 2017, 22:16
David K David K is offline  
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Extra Masters Sail and Steam

As an Apprentice with the Australian National Line (1960-64 ) I served under two Masters holding (FG) Extra Masters Sail and Steam. Both were truly excellent seamen, and strange as it may seem neither drank nor swore! The first, Capt.McCauley would have the Tugs in attendance when docking only because the Company, and presumably the Insurance insisted. Otherwise he'd "Park" the " River Murrumbidgee" as easily as I'd now park a car on a good day ! And he'd invariably take the time to point out to the Apprentice ( responsible for Bridge Log and Engine Room Telegraphs ) on the Bridge when entering Harbour, all the markers and points of reference he used and what the tides and currents could be expected to do and how to take advantage of them. ... Truly one of natures true Gentlemen! .... David K
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  #11  
Old 21st April 2017, 10:19
sternchallis sternchallis is offline  
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Extra Masters is different from a combined Masters in Sail & Steam.
As is an Extra Chiefs. You don't need a combined ticket to sit for the Extras.
The Extras is equivalent to a BS/BEng honours degree in Nautical Science/Marine Engineering, lots of fancy sums and derivation of the formulas more than using them.

Extras often being the qualification of choice for BOT (M&CGA) and Class surveyors.

Though both these agencies slipped up by asking for graduates and found they didn't have a clue when it came to crawling around crankcases, boilers or looking at running gear on deck, lifeboat davits or hold structures during surveys. And they probably didn't like getting dirty.
They then had to drop the qualls to allow former sea going personel to join and sort them out.
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  #12  
Old 21st April 2017, 12:56
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Basil Basil is offline  
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Quote:
could pilot his own ship up the Humber into Hull Docks
Once helmed a 70ft steel ketch motoring up the Humber with a strong tidal flow.
She deffo wasn't always going in the direction she was pointing

Respect to those who did that sort of thing with sail, oar and anchor.
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  #13  
Old 21st April 2017, 18:44
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Duncan112 Duncan112 is online now  
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Alistair McNab or Alan Rawlinson might be able to shed light/dates etc on this but there was a relieving Master in Bank Line, a Captain B Z Gerstel who by repute had a Master's in sail & steam.
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  #14  
Old 21st April 2017, 20:17
sternchallis sternchallis is offline  
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Were Bank Line ships once described as , 12,000 tons, 12 tons a day and
12 knots perhaps.

I believe also state they could put a ship in any (major ?) port in the world in
2 ( not quite sure on that number) days, due to there large tramping fleet.

Believed to be still in operation but with Russian officers and crew.
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  #15  
Old 21st April 2017, 21:59
Dartskipper Dartskipper is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sternchallis View Post
Were Bank Line ships once described as , 12,000 tons, 12 tons a day and
12 knots perhaps.

I believe also state they could put a ship in any (major ?) port in the world in
2 ( not quite sure on that number) days, due to there large tramping fleet.

Believed to be still in operation but with Russian officers and crew.
A class of tankers built for Shell in the 1930's onwards were known as the "Triple Twelves" for the same reasons. A number also were built for Eagle Oil.
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  #16  
Old 21st April 2017, 22:02
Dartskipper Dartskipper is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
Once helmed a 70ft steel ketch motoring up the Humber with a strong tidal flow.
She deffo wasn't always going in the direction she was pointing

Respect to those who did that sort of thing with sail, oar and anchor.
A bit like crossing the Gulf Stream when heading for Miami from Nassau at night. Made landfall near the entrance to Fort Lauderdale.

Oops.
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  #17  
Old 22nd April 2017, 10:05
Rogerfrench Rogerfrench is offline  
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I do remember the 10 10 10 10 standard, like a Liberty ship perhaps.
Ten thousand tons
Ten knots
Ten tons
Ten derricks.
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