Pilotage Exemption Certificates - Ships Nostalgia
15:12

Welcome
Welcome!Welcome to Ships Nostalgia, the world's greatest online community for people worldwide with an interest in ships and shipping. Whether you are crew, ex-crew, ship enthusiasts or cruisers, this is the forum for you. And what's more, it's completely FREE.

Click here to go to the forums home page and find out more.
Click here to join.
Log in
User Name Password

Pilotage Exemption Certificates

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11th July 2008, 14:36
ROBERT HENDERSON ROBERT HENDERSON is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,680
Pilotage Exemption Certificates

I was reading the July edition of the Nautilus Telegraph, there is an article regarding a Belgain RO-RO ship going sternfirst towards her berth and colliding with another ferry, Pride of Bruges,
The Master of the Belgian ferry did not have a pilotage exemption certificate, but another officer who was not apparently signed on the vessel did, hence the reason for going without a pilot, the Master thought the officer with the exemption should do the manoevering, the officer with the exemption did not have ship handling experience.
I held two pilotage exemptions, one for the River Thames as far as Dagenham, for which I filled in a form to prove that I had done sufficient trips up the Thame and that I could speak English, no examination or interview required. The other exemption for the River Humber was granted under similar circumstances, although I did refuse to do my own pilotage when going to Old Harbour or other berths I was not familiar with. When I rejoined Everard's my Thames exemption was tranferred. The one for the Humber I had to go to VTS Humber to see their operations and go before the Harbour Master and senior pilot before it could be transferred as the ships were near the length for sitting the full pilots exam. I was asked various questions about navigation on the river, but nothing about my ship handling abilities or knowledge of various docks or berths. My last company before retiring we were expected to do our own pilotage wherever it was not compulsory including many foreign ports.
I would like to know the feelings of other members of the subject of own pilotage, especially members who are or have been engaged in the short sea trades.


Last edited by ROBERT HENDERSON : 11th July 2008 at 14:37. Reason: TYPO ERROR
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11th July 2008, 16:37
Steve Woodward Steve Woodward is offline  
member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
My location
Posts: 0
For a full report on this incident see HERE

Last edited by Steve Woodward : 12th July 2008 at 22:29.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12th July 2008, 01:08
oceangoer oceangoer is offline  
Discredited Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 0
After a couple of years as Master of an FOC tanker (Gulf - Japan) I decided to take a holiday and went as Master of a 10,000 ton general cargo ship trading the South Pacific/Papua New Guinea for a year. During that year I obtained Pilotage Exemption Certificates for a couple of dozen ports. Then back to tankers for a year before returning and alternating tanker/cargo for the rest of my career.
My Exemptions were a nice addition to the CV and also a nice little earner as I used to charge (by agreement) 50% of the going pilotage rate.
The first time you swing a ship going alongside in Madang is a bit hair-raising, but others like Samarai and Kavieng are a doddle.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12th July 2008, 09:45
Tony Crompton's Avatar
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Pilotage
Active: 1954 - 1998
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
My location
Posts: 805
And what would your reaction be if the Pilot (usually a qualified Master) said I will take the ship to the next Port and only cfharge half as much as the Master?

-----------------------

Tony
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12th July 2008, 09:52
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 181
One of the problems I see with Pilotage Exemption Certificates is that they are so often abused. The holder does not exempt himself from his right to call for a Licensed Pilot (when it suits) therefore you have a situation where some Master's holding PECs may if they are not feeling up to it (words chosen carefully) call a Pilot.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12th July 2008, 10:03
Tony Crompton's Avatar
Senior Member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Pilotage
Active: 1954 - 1998
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
My location
Posts: 805
Very true Bill, but if a PEC holder wants a Pilot in a lot of wind or bad visibility the reply is "If its too windy/too bad visibility for you Sir, then it is for me also."

Also when renewing PEC's Port Authorities take into account if a PEC holder has requested a Pilot. Also from the Pilots point of view it leads to all sorts of problems when you have a schedule all worked out and Pilots running round
like blue a**** flies keeping the programme going and out of the blue a PEC holder suddenly wants a Pilot. I know you would not have been too pleased if your ship was delayed while they "Shook the tree" for another Pilot.

Regards, Tony
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12th July 2008, 10:29
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 181
Good response Tony.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12th July 2008, 13:19
ROBERT HENDERSON ROBERT HENDERSON is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,680
Tony and Bill
I can see Tony's point from the perspective of a retired pilot. As I said in my starting this thread I held two PECs. Most of the ships I was master on carried only one mate, if you had a mate that you could not trust with some of the pilotage it could mean 12 hours on the bridge after a 6 hour watch. I addmit that very often when approaching a river berth my mind was more on getting some rest rather than the job in hand. In the Humber I alternated between taking a pilot and doing my own, trying to keep both sides happy. I got to know a lot of Humber pilots and they a great bunch who did understand the pressure from the paper clip counters in the company's office.
The last company before I retired I gave an ETA for Liverpool Bar pilot station, I was reminded twice the ship was not compulsory pilotage,as I was going to a dock on the Mersey I had never been before I insisted on a pilot, I was then warned that I could be replaced. I still took a pilot. The point in starting the thread was really trying to say albeit badly that it should always at masters discertion and that no master should be pressurised.
Robert
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12th July 2008, 18:27
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 181
Robert,
I do not have a coastal background but I do understand your argument. I have always been amazed how these coastal companies get away with running ships on 6 on and 6 off. I spoke with one Shipmaster recently who works for an Irish coastal outfit (green hull) and he Pilots the vessel right up the Manchester Ship Canal from the Bar. I imagine that ETA at the Bar would have to coincide with him just arriving on watch. In truth that is probably not the case. OK for young men I suppose.

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12th July 2008, 19:25
ROBERT HENDERSON ROBERT HENDERSON is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,680
Bill
Even young men get tired. I believe the reason a lot of this does not come to light is the fact that when there is an accident it is as a rule put down to crew negligence. From personal experience, as well as crew cutting the other problem comes from untrained third world crewing. While master of the small tanker I have posted in the galleries, we sometimes had to manoeuvre into an inside berth on the Thames. Itmeant passing a dolphin from another berth and leaving just enough room before turnig in at a shallow angle, so you were actually having to steer, when realistically you need to be on the bridge wing. I count myself lucky that I never done serious damage,because as well as this I have been absolutly tired from long spells on the bridge as well as quick turnarounds. I have always advocated it should always be up to the master as to whether he take a pilot and not someone sitting in an office who has never had experience as to what it entails.
Regards Robert
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12th July 2008, 20:06
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 181
Quote:[i]I have always advocated it should always be up to the master as to whether he take a pilot and not someone sitting in an office who has never had experience as to what it entails Unquote
Robert,
With above I wholeheartedly agree.
Brgds
Bill
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12th July 2008, 21:12
joebuckham's Avatar
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
Active: 1955 - 1999
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,754
hi robert

i certainly agree that it is entirely up to the old man, if on a non compulsory ship or holding a pec for that ship, to be the sole judge of whether he takes a pilot or not.
however one person on the bridge of a tanker on an approach manoeuvre in a tight situation really is fraught with danger, i would think most harbour masters would take a very dim view of that if they knew it was happening within their limits.
__________________
lifes a reach, and then you gybe

Last edited by joebuckham : 12th July 2008 at 21:14.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12th July 2008, 22:22
ROBERT HENDERSON ROBERT HENDERSON is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,680
Hi Joe
I perhaps should made it clearer regarding the small tanke I referred to. We were actually employed in the edible oil trade, not hazardous cargoes, so were not subject to the same PLA rules regarding other tankers.
Regards Robert
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12th July 2008, 23:02
oceangoer oceangoer is offline  
Discredited Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Crompton View Post
And what would your reaction be if the Pilot (usually a qualified Master) said I will take the ship to the next Port and only cfharge half as much as the Master?
Tony
That's his prerogative. If he wants to apply to an agency and offer his services at low rates there's nothing stopping him.

By the same token if I have a PEC and do the job for nothing presumably your response would be to offer your services as Master of my ship for nothing.

Last edited by oceangoer : 13th July 2008 at 06:32. Reason: Tidying up.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 13th July 2008, 08:29
NZSCOTTY NZSCOTTY is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
My location
Posts: 484
Sounds like the old pilot versus master arguement is creeping in to some of this discussion!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 13th July 2008, 10:23
Hugh Ferguson's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
My location
Posts: 4,669
Click HERE if you wish to see what one PEC holder was responsible for. I never ever witnessed such reckless, irresponsible, unseamanlike behaviour. To come crashing into a ship at about 10 knots, with both anchors in the hause and then immediately back out of the bloody great hole you,ve just created, allowing No.2 hold to fill in seconds, should to my mind be a gaoling offence. No need to ask me how I feel about those P.O.C. (Pilots of Convenience).
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 13th July 2008, 17:14
NZSCOTTY NZSCOTTY is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
My location
Posts: 484
Now, now sir are you painting every PEC holder with the same picture. I am sure we could find many incidences where a pilot is responsible but gets away with it because he is only advising. As both a pilot and PEC holder I try to see the biger picture.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 13th July 2008, 17:51
ROBERT HENDERSON ROBERT HENDERSON is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,680
HUGH
Thanks for directing us to the details of the incident that you were involved in, although I am not surprised, what does surprise me is the fact there are not more incidents near the SW or W Oaze buoys.
Regards Robert
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 14th July 2008, 05:37
oceangoer oceangoer is offline  
Discredited Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Ferguson View Post
Click HERE if you wish to see what one PEC holder was responsible for. I never ever witnessed such reckless, irresponsible, unseamanlike behaviour .... no need to ask me how I feel about those P.O.C. (Pilots of Convenience).
Without being picky .... I note that the vessel you were piloting was agreed (presumably by the underwriters) to be 33% responsible for the collision.

Now I know that a commercial decision may not truly reflect what happened but more the realities of costs if it goes to Court/Arbitration, but 33% is more than I'd expect from a blameless happenstance.

As for 10.8 kts average in dense fog ....... .... wunderbar .... memories leap up of Capt Carney, "MV Glenogle", January 1963, Rotterdam to London, pea soup fog, 21 kts, Decca 606TM radar, a middy was coasting his time out and was the only one who knew how to work it ....

As a "Pilot of Convenience" of 30 years experience I never damaged a ship (either my own or anyone else's) in any way and never twatted a wharf either.

However, having blown my trumpet, I must say that I'd NEVER navigate/berth in European close waters without a pilot or several years experience under my belt.

My worst PEC's were running the Great Barrier Reef without a pilot. That can be white knuckle stuff when both the 20 year old radar and gyro fall over and the Patagonian Uncertificated 3rd Mate panics .... but it's all part of life's rich tapestry of an FOC ShipMaster.

Last edited by oceangoer : 14th July 2008 at 07:07.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 14th July 2008, 07:45
Bill Davies Bill Davies is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 181
Oceangoer,
Quote: but it's all part of life's rich tapestry of an FOC ShipMaster: Unquote

Excellent post! Well said.

Brgds

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 14th July 2008, 12:07
captpat captpat is offline  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 52
There are many instances where the Masters of vessels running to berths on a regular basis would be far more familiar with conditions at a given berth/location than the local pilots. The Irish coasters with green hulls would be a great example - for a long while they were virtually the only vessels running up to Manchester and as they were not taking pilots, how did the pilots get experience ?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 14th July 2008, 12:23
Pat Kennedy's Avatar
Pat Kennedy Pat Kennedy is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,844
The question must be asked; how can an exemption certificate be issued to a man with limited ship handling experience?
Surely the certificate is not issued without proof that the candidate is familiar with, and competent in that particular pilotage area, and has experience of handling a ship in that area.
Pat
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 14th July 2008, 12:36
Brian Locking Brian Locking is offline  
Sock Puppet account
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 107
By definition:
PECs are issued to regular runners to the port in question. It follows that these vessels will be of the smaller variety where the Master's ship handling skills are not in question and may match or better that of a pilot for that port. The arguement here I think, in the principle in PECs and the abuse thereof.

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 14th July 2008, 12:40
Pat Kennedy's Avatar
Pat Kennedy Pat Kennedy is offline  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,844
The reason I asked was because I knew a master on one of the big Ro Ro ferries running between Dublin and Liverpool. he had to have a pilot on board until the pilotage authority was satisfied he could do the job.
Pat
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 14th July 2008, 13:01
joebuckham's Avatar
member
Organisation: Merchant Navy
Department: Navigation
Active: 1955 - 1999
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,754
familiarisation trips

hi pat
this is quite usual, the roro ships and other regular runners to the tees, who were within compulsory pilotage parameters, had to do a number of trips in and out with a pilot, then have an examination on their knowledge of the river from sea to the berth.
the reason for training of pilots and all these other, seemingly, often aggravating regulations is so that the port amd private berth owners have a measure of protection from possible damage to their assets
__________________
lifes a reach, and then you gybe
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Search the net with ask.com
Support SN
Ask.com and get


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.