hello

joff
18th December 2007, 15:33
Hi am new to the forum . and of late have been trying to find information on my dads merchant navy service 1938 to 1954 . I have been trying to find out if
he sailed on Russian convoys and trying to find a picture of ss welcombe .

cheers
Chris

Hugh MacLean
18th December 2007, 16:01
Hello Joff,
Welcome to SN.

ss WELCOMBE official number 161383 built in 1930.
Initial details of her fate here: http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/858.html

Your dad's CRS10 (service record) could be available for download at the National Archives. We would need a name, dob and place of birth to advise further.

ss WELCOMBE didn't take part in the Russian convoys.

Regards

non descript
18th December 2007, 16:04
Chris, a warm welcome to you. Thank you for joining the community; it is very good to see you already have an excellent response from Hugh. Enjoy the site and all it has to offer, and we very much look forward to your postings in due course. Bon Voyage.

K urgess
18th December 2007, 16:06
Welcome aboard from East Yorkshire, Chris.
I see you've had a response from the crew already. It shouldn't be long before a photo is found if one is available.
Meanwhile find your way around the ship and enjoy the voyage.

R58484956
18th December 2007, 17:02
Welcome Chris to SN. Enjoy the site and bon voyage.

joff
18th December 2007, 20:26
thanks lads checked dads book and it appears he was on the welcombe in April 40 through to 21/9 40 then he joined the lakeland. What is throwing me is I cannot seem to find a break for when he was wounded . He told me he was on a pom pom gun and a aircraft dropped a shell and he ended up with shrapnel wound
in his back. I can remember the hole in his back which you could fit a golf ball in.
My father has been dead for many years now so I can go down the medical route of records. any ideas how to find this info out

K urgess
18th December 2007, 20:47
Hugh's post at #2 is your best bet.
Any note of wounds should be on his record.

benjidog
18th December 2007, 23:31
Welcome from Lancashire.

I hope you will enjoy the site.

Regards,

Brian

joff
19th December 2007, 13:56
Hello again Dads DOB 21/6/1919 place of birth Grimsby . His number was R165939 . Going through his book the he did not have a ship from from Jan 1942
up to Sept 1942 I can only think this was the time he was wounded.
Just something else regards SS Welcombe some of the crew was Grimsby lads
and I remember been told this story as a young boy cannot remember if dad or uncle Joe told me; when they took to the life rafts a young seaman called Rolie when back onboard to get a clock he bought his mum as a present but sadly went down with the ship. It's a sad storey young lad bought this clock for his mum he must of thought how please his mum would have been with this clock and the look on her face when he gave it to her. And I suppose all the while his mum just wanted her son home safe and sound.

Hugh MacLean
19th December 2007, 14:47
Chris,

Your dad’s Seaman’s Pouch should be held at the National Archives in piece details BT372/124/111 at this link here: http://urlx.org/gov.uk/d2f4b (http://urlx.org/gov.uk/d2f4b)

His CRS10 should be held in either BT382/1974 here: http://urlx.org/gov.uk/e7759 (http://urlx.org/gov.uk/e7759)
or in BT382/1975 depending on his first name. File here: http://urlx.org/gov.uk/8ace8 (http://urlx.org/gov.uk/8ace8)

His CRS10 will contain much of the information you already have in his DIS A book but may also contain a lot more besides.

No telling what exactly is in his Seaman’s Pouch until you get it but usually contains a mugshot photo and other personal details.

To access these details hit on the links above then hit “Request this” then take the Digital Express option and follow instructions. The cost for each file will be £8.50 and the information will be emailed to your computer within 24 hours on a no find no fee basis.

Be as specific as you can when asking for these details. If you need further advice then please post back and will try to help.

Regards

joff
19th December 2007, 15:32
Thanks Hugh I will see what it brings. I had two grandfathers who both served in the navy but all I have to go on is names and date of births would I be able to get anywhere with this informtion

Hugh MacLean
19th December 2007, 16:12
I had two grandfathers who both served in the navy but all I have to go on is names and date of births would I be able to get anywhere with this informtion

Chris,
Were they Royal or Merchant?

Regards

gdynia
20th December 2007, 03:16
Welcome onboard to SN and enjoy the voyage

joff
21st December 2007, 18:19
Hi Hugh
both grandparents were in royal and merchant navy

Hugh MacLean
21st December 2007, 22:14
Hi Chris,

The further back from the WWII period we go takes me away from my comfort zone. I suppose it really depends what period your grandfathers served. If you know approx dates post them and we will see where we can go if anywhere.

Regards

Billy1963
22nd December 2007, 10:53
Commemorated Tower Hill Memorial Panel 118

CARRIGILL, Cook, ARTHUR, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 58.

EMERSON, Sailor, JOHN BUCKINGHAM, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 24.

GEORGE, Fireman and Trimmer, HERBERT, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 33. Son of Stephen and Susan George.

GLASSEY, Steward, SAMUEL, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 36. Son of Thomas and Mary Glassey; husband of Joan Glassey, of Dundee.

HILL, Second Radio Officer, JOHN, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 22. Son of Benjamin and Sarah Hill; husband of Marie Hill, of Hull.

JOHNSON, Master, RICHARD EDGAR, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 59.

LARSEN, Carpenter, JOHN EMMANUAL, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 23.

LOVERIDGE, Fireman and Trimmer, HENRY, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 40. Son of James and Sarah Ana Loveridge.

REVELL, Sailor, PERCY, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 24.

SHARDLOW, Third Officer, FREDERIC C., S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 41.

SKIPWORTH, Fireman and Trimmer, RONALD JAMES, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 20. Son of Roland and Mary Skipworth, of Grimsby, Lincolnshire.

SMITH, Sailor, JAMES ERNEST, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 23. Son of Mrs. H. Smith, of Grimsby, Lincolnshire; husband of E. M. Smith, of Bethnal Green, London.

STEVENS, Assistant Steward, SIDNEY, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 17. Son of Florence Thompson, of Grimsby, Lincolnshire.

STOCKS, Deck Boy, GEOFFREY, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 19. Son of Joseph Albert and Edna Mary Stocks, of Cleethorpes, Lincolnshire.

TINDLE, Chief Officer, EDWARD DAVIES, S.S. Welcombe (London). Merchant Navy. 4th April 1941. Age 51.

joff
22nd December 2007, 10:55
Hugh
Both of them served in the first and second world war . also I am trying to track
down old pictures of merchants ships dad sailed on but it's hard going. Any forum members have any links.
Hugh nearly forgot do you know Roddy Mc Donald who lives in Fort William he use to be a joiner.

Billy1963
22nd December 2007, 12:09
Hello Joff,

Give us the names of the ships you are looking for photo's of.

Hugh MacLean
22nd December 2007, 12:14
Chris,

These are the two main registers for British MN records.

1913 to 1940 Fourth Register of Merchant Seaman's service.

These records are available at The National Archives at Kew and are held on Microfiche in the following classifications BT 348: Register of Seamen, Central Index, Numerical Series (CR 2), BT 349: Register of Seamen, Central Index, Alphabetical Series (CR 1) and BT 350: Register of Seamen, Special Index, Alphabetical Series (CR 10). These three classes were combined in one classification namely BT 364 Register of Seaman, Combined Numerical Index (CR1, CR 2 & CR 10) and were made up by extracting combinations of cards from the other three classes. All these files before 1941 are held on microfiche and are only available by visiting Kew and accessing the Fourth Register of Seaman's Service.

The original records for the above named classifications are now held at the following address:

Southampton Archives,
Southampton City Council,
South Block,
Civic Centre,
Southampton,
S014 7LY.

This office is open Tuesdays to Fridays 9.30am to 4.30pm, with one late evening opening each month. There is no charge for a personal visit. Alternatively enquiries for information from the records may be made by post, e-mail or fax but there will be a charge for this.

Alternatively:

BT 382. The Fifth Register of Seaman’s Service 1941 to 1972.

Records of individual Merchant Seamen's sea service details are held in alphabetical surname order at The National Archives at Kew and can be downloaded direct to your computer. These details include the following information: Name of seaman, Date and place of birth, Discharge (Seaman’s) book number, Rank, Details of the ships on which he served. These include:

Name of ship and official number, date of engagement (Joining ship), Date of discharge (Leaving ship), whether ship was a foreign going of home trade vessel, and records in some cases National Insurance contributions. Details shown in these records are similar to those contained in an individual seaman's discharge book.

The above courtesy of Billy McGee and taken from this site: http://www.mercantilemarine.org/


----------------------------------------------------------------------

If any of your grandfathers served in the Merchant Navy during WWII then it is possible that their records could be in the Fifth Register. And these records are available on line as in the case of your father as I have pointed out earlier in the thread.

If they are not there then probably in the Fourth Register of Seamen's Service, which is not available on line, but the best bet would be to contact Southampton City Archives as in the information from Billy that I refered to in the top of my post. Also look at this link for additional info about the Fourth Register: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=128&j=1

Unfortunately there will be no merchant seamen's records for the First World War as they have beem destroyed.

Regarding Royal Navy records I would advise you have a read of this page: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/royal-navy-service.asp
Regarding the photos of ships that you require, I think if you posted a list of those ships that your father served on then I am sure we could track some of them down for you or at least point you to where they can be bought.

Roddy McDonald, Joiner, Fort William. The name is quite common up here and I don't think I know him. If he is still here though I could find him quite easily. What age would he be?

I hope some of that helps you.

Regards (Thumb)

joff
24th December 2007, 13:41
well first thing thank you Billy 1963 who would hold the names of all the ships crew of the Welcombe would you know.
Hugh when I have been tracing dads conveys there seems to be periods when there are no movements on ships he sailed on. I mean to say he could sail to
liverpool which is shown on a convoy data but the ship never moves from port.
Would this be the case that you could spend weeks in port waiting for new orders to sail do you think this is how it worked. I suppose you have to take into account how long it takes to unload and even waiting to unload.
regards
chris

Stewart Gibson
1st May 2015, 19:43
when they took to the life rafts a young seaman called Rolie when back onboard to get a clock he bought his mum as a present but sadly went down with the ship. It's a sad storey young lad bought this clock for his mum he must of thought how please his mum would have been with this clock and the look on her face when he gave it to her. And I suppose all the while his mum just wanted her son home safe and sound.

This is an old thread but this piece of information struck a chord. My grandfather, Steward Samuel Glassey was one of the men lost on the Welcombe that night. My mother, his daughter, tells a similar story that he went back aboard to get provisions as they had been separated from the convoy, were alone, and had no idea how long they might be in the boats. According to the story, the ship was torpedoed again, and those aboard had no means of escape.

There is a report of an interview of the Second Officer somewhere in Admiralty records that I am trying to obtain. Anyone here know where it might be found?

I noticed that people were able to provide links to service information. None of them seem to work now. My Grandfathers service info:

Samuel Glassey, Steward, SS Welcombe, 809604

Thanks
Stewart

Hugh MacLean
1st May 2015, 22:45
Hello Stewart and welcome,

I have a copy of the file you want - it's the Survivor's Report made by 2nd Officer Croft. I have uploaded it but due to the poor quality it will not be able to be read as an attachment and I have removed it. If you can provide me with your email address by private message I will send it on to you.

As he was killed in April 1941 he will have no service records in the Fifth Register of Seamen 1941- 1972. Any surviving records will be held in the Fourth Register of Seamen 1913-1940. He has a CR10 card with his photograph in this Register. Do you have it? He is shown joining ss EUMAEUS on 4. 8. 1921 but no other ship mentioned. If he served on other ships you may be able to track his service via the crew agreement of WELCOMBE but that depends on when he joined the ship and if previous agreements are still held. The agreement is part of the ship's official logbook which would have been lost in the sinking - it is complicated to explain but back tracking via crew agreements is normally the way to go in these circumstances but if the ship was sunk as in this case, well, you need a bit of luck.
Regards
Hugh

Stewart Gibson
1st May 2015, 23:09
Thank you Hugh,

PM sent, I am curious as to why you would have a copy? Is that an area of research interest for you?

My wife's uncle was lost on the SS Koranton, 7 days earlier also sunk by U-98 only 45 miles from where my Grandfather was lost. You would not happen to have any info on that loss would you? Unfortunately there were no survivors of that sinking.

Hugh MacLean
1st May 2015, 23:12
Hi Stewart,

Merchant Navy research WW1 & WW2 is my interest. Can you give me his name?

Regards
Hugh

Stewart Gibson
1st May 2015, 23:20
Hugh

His name is Patrick Michael Foley, Fireman. Koranton was lost on 27 March, he joined the merchant marine the day he turned 18, March 5th I believe in St john's

Stewart

Stewart Gibson
1st May 2015, 23:40
Hugh,

I am able to read the copy perfectly. I'll rotate and crop the image and I am sure it will be fine. I have to send it on to my Uncle and my Mother, siblings, cousins etc. It does appear that there might be at least one more page?

Yes, I do have a copy of the CR10 as well as the trip records for both ships during the war. I am not sure of the terminology but they are labelled TM 971/38.

I do not have a CR10 for Patrick. Do you have a link for the fourth register?

Thank you so much

Best regards,
Stu

Hugh MacLean
1st May 2015, 23:43
Stewart,
He is shown as being Canadian Merchant Navy and commemorated on the Halifax Memorial. The Deaths at Sea Register shows his age as 20 and last abode was 4 Stephen Street, City, St John's Newfoundland. If he was actually 18 when he died then I suspect there will be little in the way of records for him.

The last crew agreement or in this case the casualty and death list for the ship will be held at the National Archives Kew in piece BT 381/1373 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11043764) under the ship's official number 142863.

http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/crews/ship838.html

Regards
Hugh

Stewart Gibson
1st May 2015, 23:49
Talking with his sisters, they claim he tried to join in 39 at 16 but was turned away and joined the day he hit 18. The address is correct.

I'll look up that reference and see if I can locate any further records. I have a photo of his name from the Memorial in Halifax, and uboat net was where I started my journey. A very useful resource.

Thank you for your kind assistance,

Stewart

Hugh MacLean
1st May 2015, 23:56
Will send it tomorrow Stewart.
Yes I thought it looked like there may have been another page but checking I can confirm there is not as I have the whole file.

Regards
Hugh

billyboy
2nd May 2015, 00:17
A warm welcome aboard from the Philippines. Please enjoy all this great site has to offer

Hugh MacLean
2nd May 2015, 10:06
Sorry Stewart I thought it was the CR 10 for Samuel that you didn't have. There won't be one for Patrick as the CR10 only covers 1918-1921. As he joined the MN in March of 1941 and was killed the same month I doubt very much there will be any personal records for him in the Fifth Register of Seamen apart from a mention in the crew agreement that I have already mentioned.

Regards
Hugh

Stewart Gibson
2nd May 2015, 11:54
Hi Hugh,

No problem, I went in search of records last year and found the CR10 on the Scotland's People site I believe. I did get the ship movements data from the Records Office in Kew but I was unaware of the Seamen's Registers.

My mother and her brother have limited recollection of their father's service as they were very young, my mother was 8 when he was lost at sea. Her brother was 6, he is in Dundee as well so we do not talk as much as I would like.

Reading the survivors report, I am of two minds regarding passing it on to them. There is no mention of crew members returning to the ship in the narrative. The stories may well have been a way to reconcile their loss when there were survivors. It is especially chilling to think of them being left in the water alone, as Mr. Croft reports hearing voices but not finding anyone.

In any event thank you so much for your help. I have another avenue to explore in the Registers of Seamen and some questions regarding Patrick Foley's age when he joined. I know that Patrick's sisters were happy to know of the story behind his fate, but time may have muddled their memories regarding his age at the time. Perhaps there is more information to be found in the Registry.

Regards
Stu

Hugh MacLean
2nd May 2015, 12:20
Hi Stu,

Link for the Fourth Register of Seamen: http://www.southampton.gov.uk/libraries-museums/local-family-history/southampton-archives/index-merchant-seamen.aspx they do a research service for £15 - I don't think you will find anything else about him there. Read in conjunction with post #19 in this thread.

The Fifth Register begins January 1941 so there is an outside chance either may have a CRS 10 at Kew held in BT 382 but don't expect much if anything at all as their dates of death are only three months between the end of the Fourth Register and early Fifth Register. But in research I always say explore every avenue for yourself - you never know. Would you like the file references for the CRS 10s just in case?

Regards
Hugh

Stewart Gibson
2nd May 2015, 14:25
Hi Hugh,


Any references you could provide would be welcome.

Thanks,
Stu

Stewart Gibson
2nd May 2015, 14:32
Hugh,

Further to my last, as Patrick Foley is Canadian Merchant Navy would his records be at Kew or somewhere in Canada? Interestingly Newfoundland did not become part of Canada until 1949. Newfoundland was in political limbo having been taken over by the British Government in 1934 having been an independent Dominion prior to that time. I will have a look at the archives here to see if they have any holdings.

Stu

Hugh MacLean
2nd May 2015, 15:11
CRS 10 for Samuel Glassey, if anywhere, would be held in BT 382/654 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10988879)

CRS 10 for Patrick Michael Foley, if anywhere, would be held in BT 382/594 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10988819)

These records are best viewed by visit Stu or hire a researcher to look for you. I doubt you will get any sensible answer from the online Kew research service and the price quote will be daft as well.

Newfoundland was something I had considered and to be honest I doubt you will find anything either there or at Kew regarding his service apart from the crew agreement for his last ship (at Kew). The Canadian Merchant Navy do have WW2 records for their merchant seamen though so you may wish to check them out - just in case.

Regards
Hugh