Liberty ship no 3 hatch derricks

peter hogg
9th February 2019, 08:26
Hello,
I'm looking for some help. When the derricks for liberty ship no 3 hatch were stowed for sea, they were crossed. How would these be rigged? I have loads of photos for reference but can't find a clear view. I visited a lot of libs in the sixties but as they were working cargo I didn't see the derricks stowed, and it never occurred to me at that time to investigate.
I would be grateful for any help.
Thanks.

seaman38
9th February 2019, 09:00
Hello,
I'm looking for some help. When the derricks for liberty ship no 3 hatch were stowed for sea, they were crossed. How would these be rigged?
Thanks.

Hello Peter

#3 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) hatch derricks on Liberty ships were not crossed.

#3 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) hatch was shorter than #1 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1) and #2 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=2) so did not allow a straight fore and aft stow. At #3 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) the derrick heel was at the outer edge of the mast house, the derrick was angled out to the ships side, the derrick head stowing in a crutch at boat deck level port and starboard. the derricks at #3 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) each had a positioning guy positioned at the outboard and inboard sides of the derrick head. Derricks at #'s 1,2 4 and 5 were rigged with schooner guys on the inboard side of derrick heads, although some owners changed this rig after war service.

Stephen J. Card
9th February 2019, 12:41
Here is a reasonable photo showing the derricks stowed for No. 3 Hatch and a second photo showing the stowed position for the derricks for No. 4.

Lots if photos (peacetime) seem that schooner guy was used on No. 3 derricks (not all though) and a few photos showing during war period too.

LEICESTER (Federal Steam Nav Co).

Stephen

Aberdonian
9th February 2019, 15:30
Not a great view of No 3 hatch but it serves to confirm some comments given above.

Keith

Stephen J. Card
9th February 2019, 16:33
Excellent closeup!

Mus have been hell for watchkeeping. The view is minimal. A lot of Liberty vessel has additional windows in the wheelhouse but a lot did nothing about it.

Stephen

Wallace Slough
9th February 2019, 17:09
I piloted the Jeremiah O'Brien on many occasions and the visibility from the wheelhouse was terrible. We'd routinely conn the ship from the flying bridge and rarely conn from the wheelhouse unless the weather was bad. I note that many photos of Liberty ships after the war show the installation of a new wheelhouse one deck above the old one.

peter hogg
9th February 2019, 17:57
Thanks for the replies gentlemen.
If the stbd. derrick was positioned in its port side crotch first, then the port derrick crossed over the stbd. derrick, to be secured in its stbd. side crotch, then I can't figure how the port derrick wouldn't foul the rigging for the stbd. derrick?
Sounds garbled but I can't think of another way to describe my confusion!

I want to build a model and I would like to get it right.

Stephen J. Card
9th February 2019, 20:44
Ahhhh!!!!!! That is an easy one to answer. (Hopefully!) The starboard derrick crutch is located at the edge of the port Boat Deck. The port derrick crutch is not located at the edge of Boat Deck but it sited a bit higher, just above the rail of the starboard Boat Deck. Might be a tight fit to cross, but possibly the heel of the port derrick is six inches higher on the mast house and possibly the starboard derrick heel is six inches lower. Anyhow, some of the photos show how the derricks are crossed and sited at different heights on the Boat Deck.

BTW... are you making one of the 'Triumph' 1.350 kit models? I have one on my shelf. I used it for making a painting of the John Brown. Didn't make the model but used all of the construction plans. very useful! Eventually I would like to complete the model as the LEICESTER. Perhaps this summer.

Stephen

Stephen J. Card
9th February 2019, 20:54
Two LEICESTER photos. Shows the position of the crutches on starboard (top of the rail) and the port crutch on the Boat Deck edge level. Seems to have been the standard on all if not most of the Liberty boats.

Stephen

tunatownshipwreck
10th February 2019, 05:20
I piloted the Jeremiah O'Brien on many occasions and the visibility from the wheelhouse was terrible. We'd routinely conn the ship from the flying bridge and rarely conn from the wheelhouse unless the weather was bad. I note that many photos of Liberty ships after the war show the installation of a new wheelhouse one deck above the old one.

I always puzzled over what kind of wood they used for those new wheelhouses, they looked to be made of teak or mahogany.

seaman38
10th February 2019, 09:25
I piloted the Jeremiah O'Brien on many occasions and the visibility from the wheelhouse was terrible. We'd routinely conn the ship from the flying bridge and rarely conn from the wheelhouse unless the weather was bad. I note that many photos of Liberty ships after the war show the installation of a new wheelhouse one deck above the old one.

Having sailed in convoys (Suez 56) then you spend more time on the bridge wings then you do in the wheelhouse, as not steaming too far apart in nautical situations you need to be constantly aware of what is abeam of you, even more so in inclement weather of the North Atlantic I should imagine. The lack of large windows on the bridge would no doubt have been counted as a blessing if/when being straffed by aircraft/submarines or MTB's etc

Stephen J. Card
10th February 2019, 10:49
Very true, but for peacetime, with one mate on the bridge to do the everything, lots of windows would be a great help.

Seaman 38. In Suez 56 convoys, did your ship carry extra mates and lookouts?

Stephen

seaman38
10th February 2019, 12:35
Very true, but for peacetime, with one mate on the bridge to do the everything, lots of windows would be a great help.

Seaman 38. In Suez 56 convoys, did your ship carry extra mates and lookouts?

Stephen

Very true in Peacetime Stephen I agree, but lets face it in our days ships moved much more slowly than they do in these days and we didn't spend most of our time peering into a radar PPI, because we didn't have one. Masters expected us to spend most of our time on Bridge Wings and not be ensconsed in the luxury of a wheelhouse, which was their domain, unless we were near land and had to constantly check charts, fathom lines and echo sounder. Lets face it Liberty ships were built as one trip wonders and convenience of anyone on board was not a priority, but they did have drinking water taps running through fridges, an American Union demand for US crews.

In 1956 we did not carry extra watchkeepers, we as in the old days kept both wheelhouse doors open at all times and traversed from one wing to another to ascertain other vessels positions, Aldis lamp rigged on each bridge wing to flash other vessel getting too close, white light during daylight hours and red shaded at night. Radio silence and all communication by Int'l Code of Signals and red aldis at night.

Normal lookouts, as Grey Funnel line swept the area ahead of us. We had 4 Liberty ships in convoy, but as no vessel in the convoy was loaded to her marks, as no bulk cargoes, they maintained the 10 knot speed quite easily

Stephen J. Card
10th February 2019, 13:46
Many thanks. Great information and shows the value of Ships Nostalgia Dot Com!

Did your convoy include troops? The NEW AUSTRALIA (Shaw Savill) was used for the purpose.

Attached. Painting by William Muller showing a convoy off Gib, but this was WW2 not Suez.

What ship where you in?


Stephen

seaman38
10th February 2019, 14:25
Did your convoy include troops? The NEW AUSTRALIA (Shaw Savill) was used for the purpose.

What ship where you in?

Stephen

Yes it is great when we can swop maritime memories instead of slagging each other off on things we cannot change. We had one troop ship arrive late, for the life of me at this particular time cannot remember her name (old age) most of my recollections of earlier days are from memory, as a famous moving company (won't 'Pick' any names!) lost all my records when I put all my worldy goods into storage went I went to live in Pakistan for four years looking after a Swiss shipping company's ships.

There were no troopships in our convoy, they arrived on scene after us, we arrived on invasion day. My ship was 'Salinas' (PSNC) and we were commodore vessel of the convoy, but no naval personnel on board, although we did carry out with us twelve Red Berets in the passenger accommodation, much to the Master's annoyance who thought that they would ruin it with all their gear (they didn't). At sea we tend to think we were quite athletic in our younger days, but these guys were something else again, and we had to curtail their antics in army issue boots, as we were under instructions from the then MoD to wear only soft soled or rubber soled shoes, We had in excess of 20,000 jerry cans of tank and aviation fuel on board, in addition to naval and army shells, bombs, detonators plus other niceties, plus tracked personnel carriers, tanks and trucks. We had to have special air operated fume extractor tubes fitted up the masts to force the fumes above funnel (spark) level, we did the ejection four times a day, the air compressors were fitted in different parts of the vessel, but all interlinked in case of compressor breakdown or accident.

Will have to go now, as meeting friends, cheers

Binnacle
10th February 2019, 16:16
That ship looks like the Mill Hill.

R651400
10th February 2019, 18:34
I always puzzled over what kind of wood they used for those new wheelhouses, they looked to be made of teak or mahogany.All Blue Funnel/Glen Line Sam class Liberties had the flying bridge to wooden main bridge conversion and the old main bridge became the Master's accommodation. Wood for new bridge I can only guess was teak.
Thumbnail is Sam class Caspiana/ELCA and possibly due to her being previously owned by US flag Isbrandsten one of the best looking bridge conversions on any Sam-boat I've seen,
Regret not joining her when I had the opportunity.

peter hogg
11th February 2019, 21:10
Hello Stephen, and thanks for the pics of Leicester.
I have one of those Trumpeter models partially built. I have ambitions to go for a 1:96 scale so the detail is more discernible. That is why I am chewing over the Derrick issue. I would like to get started before the arthritis finishes my hands off totally!
However her indoors may have other ideas. She has probably had enough of my hobbies and interests.
Maybe one day soon the Sneaton will take to the water again.

Butters
12th February 2019, 08:01
I have looked through three books on Liberty Ships and have found pictures of derrick housing and they all appear to be at housing at extremes on each housing on the side of the derrick housing.

butters

reefpilot
14th February 2019, 23:29
It was good of the Captain to give a port list so that we could get a better view of the hatch!

Alan Rawlinson
15th February 2019, 08:52
Interesting thread. The Liberty ships hold a fascination for so many mariners and ex mariners. No one has mentioned the odd arrangement at No 3 hatch derricks whereby the securing arrangements for the topping lift were different from other hatches. ( at least it was on my experience on the SS Maplebank - ex Sam Wash). The weight of the derrick (and any load) was taken up on a wire belayed on the masthouse bulkhead. So to lower the derrick it was a simple matter of loosening the turns - and standing well back! This set up always provided a bit of fun for us apprentices called upon to adjust the height. To raise the derrick up, there was a wire led to a winch which took the weight while the main downhaul was rewound on the bulkhead cleats.

jerome morris
15th February 2019, 13:11
I can't figure how the port derrick wouldn't foul the rigging for the stbd. derrick?
I want to build a model and I would like to get it right.[/QUOTE]
Think about this.
One boom is lowered to it cradle first.
The next one is lowered down but not crossed the other boom.
Once that boom is down to about where it needs to be it gets swung over to it's cradle, the supporting rig will not foul each other this way. They may touch but that's not a problem.
Make sense now?

seaman38
15th February 2019, 16:25
Thanks for the replies gentlemen.
If the stbd. derrick was positioned in its port side crotch first, then the port derrick crossed over the stbd. derrick, to be secured in its stbd. side crotch, then I can't figure how the port derrick wouldn't foul the rigging for the stbd. derrick?

I want to build a model and I would like to get it right.

Peter its commendable that you want to get everything right, but I think you are looking for problems that don't exist.

The topping-lifts on Libertys were single span wires, as opposed to gun-tackles or multi wire purchases. You have a couple of scenarios

(i)At the derrick heel end of the span (4") would be a monkey face with topping-lift span attached to top hole, with chain links attached to one of the lower holes, then the other hole would have a smaller wire, normally 2.5" circ to lead to drum end for hauling up and/or lowering, when derrick in desired position chain link would be shackled to deck. On starboard derrick being lowered in crutch, the topping lift would be left slack and port derrick lowered across it (this rig was on a lot of merchant ships with short hatches at #3 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) or #5 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=5) ). Some derricks at #3 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) had a second topping lift eye midway down the derrick, when the starboard derrick was in its crutch, the span would be unshackled from the derrick head and attached to the mid derrick eye, so that when the port derrick was lowered it did not foull the starboard topping lift

(ii) the other option was to release the topping lift from the derrick head and shackle it to the deck near the derrick heel.

(iii) if on a short passage and derricks were left flying then no problem, but if on a short passage and span not released from derrick head, then the slack span on the port derrick was just lashed to the starboard derrick to stop it swinging around.

(iv) on vessels not using the monkey face, but cleats on a masthouse for the span, then the method was heave up on a wire attached to thimble eye on span, then chain stopper off the aux wire through deck lead block and wind the main span over the cleats, not as easy as it sounds with a 4" wire, but they were big substantial cleats,

(v) there are other methods

Petenz
15th February 2019, 22:43
Hello,
I'm looking for some help. When the derricks for liberty ship no 3 hatch were stowed for sea, they were crossed. How would these be rigged? I have loads of photos for reference but can't find a clear view. I visited a lot of libs in the sixties but as they were working cargo I didn't see the derricks stowed, and it never occurred to me at that time to investigate.
I would be grateful for any help.
Thanks.

I was aboard the "Park" type Liberty Ship 'Wairuna' in 1955/56 as a cadet and though a very different build to most 'Liberty' ships but I have discovered a photo of the crossed derricks you are looking for; hope it shows up here(Smoke)as an attachment

Stephen J. Card
16th February 2019, 01:01
Yes, we have photos showing how they were crossed. Jerome was asking how to not fouling the topping lift. Easy in the photo above. Two choices. A. Lower the Starboard derrick into the crutch. Unshackle the topping lift from the Starboard derrick. Then lower the Port derrick and down into the crutch. The unshackled topping left... made fast to a eyebolt... must be one somewhere on the masthouse. B. Faster way, put the starboard derrick in the crutch and then lower the topping wire all the way down onto the hatchover. Lower the port derrick. The starboard topping lift take up the slack. Scrapes the paintwork on the derrick or leaves grease everywhere.

Here are two samples. Loch Lomond... No 4 Hatch... crossed stow. One show with the topping lift block unshackled and or the second photo with the topping lift left under the derrick.

Stephen

duncs
16th February 2019, 04:15
I'm showing my ignorance here. I understand most of the above re derricks. But, one I'm lost on is, what is a schooner guy? I don't mean the facetious reply.

Stephen J. Card
16th February 2019, 07:27
See No. 14

Schooner guy tackle. Tackle between derrick heads.

Stephen

Stephen J. Card
16th February 2019, 07:50
Look on YOU TUBE for:

SHIP'S GEAR AND CARGO HANDLING GEAR
PublicResourceOrg


Excellent 17 minute instructional film. Look at 5.10 minute for Schooner Guy Tackle.

Good footage and some of it on Liberty ships.

Stephen

























Subscribe152K



















SHIP'S GEAR AND CARGO HANDLING GEAR
.

PublicResourceOrg

PublicResourceOrg























Subscribe152K

duncs
18th February 2019, 16:31
See No. 14

Schooner guy tackle. Tackle between derrick heads.

Stephen

Stephen,
sorry for not responding to your reply earlier. My internet connection was out for the last couple of days(external BT fault, not mine). Most of the island was affected. Our only cash machine out, unable to pay by card at Co-op store caused problems for many. Mind you, re Co-op, due to wx/ferry problems, most of the shelves were empty anyway.

However, my moans and groans aside, many thanks for your info. I liked to observe topping/stowing of derricks, to understand the cargo gear, as well as appreciate the deck crowds' skill. I had never heard that term for derrick head guys, but then, I was only an observer.

My only cargo gear experience was cranes(repairing, keeping them going), on bulkers.

Best regards,
Duncs

Stephen J. Card
18th February 2019, 19:57
Ah! Wx is always a problem to Islanders. Unfortunately the only land from me is almost 600 miles. :-)

Denholm reefers, LOMOND and MAREE were five hatch, four cranes and one set of derricks. When possible with the gangs, cranes were used. If you had a full gang then the derricks were used. Cranes might be easy but the union purchase was a bit faster. The drawback was the hydraulic winches... NOISE!

Stephen

duncs
18th February 2019, 23:36
Stephen,
BTW, I liked your pics of the Lomond in your #25 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=25) post.
I hope you don't mind, but I copied them into my personal photo folder.
I had no photos of her. Nice looker, nicer still to have sailed in her. It was a joy, one of the best I'd been on.

Rgds
Duncs

Stephen J. Card
19th February 2019, 00:36
Stephen,
BTW, I liked your pics of the Lomond in your #25 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=25) post.
I hope you don't mind, but I copied them into my personal photo folder.
I had no photos of her. Nice looker, nicer still to have sailed in her. It was a joy, one of the best I'd been on.

Rgds
Duncs


Good. I wish there more for you.

Chas Connell produced a good ship! My only disappointing Clyde-but ship was Nordic Clansman! ;-)

I hope the Barra ferry is back on the run.

Stephen

duncs
19th February 2019, 01:31
Good. I wish there more for you.

Chas Connell produced a good ship! My only disappointing Clyde-but ship was Nordic Clansman! ;-)

I hope the Barra ferry is back on the run.

Stephen

'Lord of the Isles', stand in for out of action 'Isle of Lewis', just arrived. Co-op will be mobbed tomorrow! Seems when they(ferries), come out of annual drydock, they breakdown. The 'Lewis', purpose built for Stornoway/Ullapool run, can only do Barra/Oban run, due to no tidal restrictions. Main master on 'Lewis' is ex Denholm cadet/mate, Alex Morrison from Lewis. Left 'D' c 74.
Cal-Mac are juggling their ferries as best they can.

My trip on the 'Loch Lomond':- one first trip deckboy is a master with Cal-Mac, another first tripper is, I believe a mate, with same. An AB, though older, got his ticket and is 3/O, with same. How did the 'Lomond' produce them? Was it because I was aboard?(just joking).


Rgds
Duncs


P.S. Sorry all, for going off the main thread.
Duncs

Rough Richard
22nd February 2019, 02:42
Peter its commendable that you want to get everything right, but I think you are looking for problems that don't exist.

The topping-lifts on Libertys were single span wires, as opposed to gun-tackles or multi wire purchases. You have a couple of scenarios

(i)At the derrick heel end of the span (4") would be a monkey face with topping-lift span attached to top hole, with chain links attached to one of the lower holes, then the other hole would have a smaller wire, normally 2.5" circ to lead to drum end for hauling up and/or lowering, when derrick in desired position chain link would be shackled to deck. On starboard derrick being lowered in crutch, the topping lift would be left slack and port derrick lowered across it (this rig was on a lot of merchant ships with short hatches at #3 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) or #5 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=5) ). Some derricks at #3 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=3) had a second topping lift eye midway down the derrick, when the starboard derrick was in its crutch, the span would be unshackled from the derrick head and attached to the mid derrick eye, so that when the port derrick was lowered it did not foull the starboard topping lift

(ii) the other option was to release the topping lift from the derrick head and shackle it to the deck near the derrick heel.

(iii) if on a short passage and derricks were left flying then no problem, but if on a short passage and span not released from derrick head, then the slack span on the port derrick was just lashed to the starboard derrick to stop it swinging around.

(iv) on vessels not using the monkey face, but cleats on a masthouse for the span, then the method was heave up on a wire attached to thimble eye on span, then chain stopper off the aux wire through deck lead block and wind the main span over the cleats, not as easy as it sounds with a 4" wire, but they were big substantial cleats,

(v) there are other methods

I can fully confirm Peter's description with the monkey face plate (I believe some companies called it a union plate) I am presently also making a scale model of my first ship, Tantalus ex Samcleve ex John T Clark. I obtained the General Arrangement plans for the SS Tantalus from the Liverpool Maritime Museum which holds much of A. Holts documents. Photos of the Googled Jerremiah O'Brian proved helpful.

Wallace Slough
22nd February 2019, 05:40
Interesting to see the different nomenclature used for the same piece of equipment. The "monkey face plate" referred to above was called a "flounder plate" on the Victory Ship I sailed on. I found it to be a safe way to secure the gear and much superior to the wire purchase described in Peter's (iv) above which required stopping off the greasy topping wire and then securing it on the large cleat on the mast. All the C-2's I sailed on had this type of arrangement which I feel was inferior to the flounder plate or monkey face plate arrangement.

seaman38
22nd February 2019, 09:27
#34 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=34) and #35 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=35)

Ah! well! I did try, see #13 (https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=13) , my name isn't Peter

Seaman38

R651400
22nd February 2019, 18:38
Another very comprehensive gallery of Sam-class Liberties here (http://www.greekshippingmiracle.org/en/highlights/liberty/first-greek-liberty-ships.html) that may be of assistance