Grey cell 'exercise' for bridge watchkeepers.

Graham the pipe
23rd March 2019, 08:52
My question/questions has/have come about as a result of a certain 'ED Gentleman' asking, on Facebook, "How did we know when we had sufficient sea time for second mates? My discharge book was very rarely stamped".

I'm sure we all know the answer to that question but it caused me to look back well over half a century to see how much I good remember or ~ more specifically ~ had forgotten.

How many written papers were there for second mates, mates and masters? There were different pass marks for each paper {I think}. Was it possible to pass each subject but still fail if you didn't get the required 70% average overall?

Sea time for second mates was four years. Mates a year and masters a further two {I think}.

What happened to the certificate (?) for passing out (?) from pre sea ~ in my case King Ted's London '57 ~ giving you remission against the four years for second mates? I'm 100% certain I never saw same; did they 'exist' or was it purely 'verbal' twixt College and employing shipping company.

Please feel free ~ in answering my questions ~ to raise any of your own on this subject, so that all 'facts' forthcoming are *contained under the same roof.

* Sorry to use the 'C' word but it does end in 'd' and not 'r'.

Pilot mac
23rd March 2019, 09:16
Dont know why his discharge book was not updated mine was always stamped. As an apprentice my sea time was also recorded by my employer and it was recorded on my indentures. I never knew this until my indentures were returned to me on completion of my apprenticeship.

I can remember being penalised for having HT stamps in my discharge book, they would only count them as half time for a FG ticket

cheers Dave

howardang
23rd March 2019, 09:43
Like many others my discharge book was not always filled out but my company - South American Saint Line - filled in the missing voyage details on the back of my indentures which I received at the end of my time.

I was at Warsash and received 9 months remission of sea time which was set down on my leaving report sent from the School of Navigation when I left to go to sea.

I remember taking discharge book, indentures and remission certificate to the clerk in Hull which applying to take second mates and they were accepted without any problem.


Howard

saudisid
23rd March 2019, 11:26
My question/questions has/have come about as a result of a certain 'ED Gentleman' asking, on Facebook, "How did we know when we had sufficient sea time for second mates? My discharge book was very rarely stamped".

I'm sure we all know the answer to that question but it caused me to look back well over half a century to see how much I good remember or ~ more specifically ~ had forgotten.

How many written papers were there for second mates, mates and masters? There were different pass marks for each paper {I think}. Was it possible to pass each subject but still fail if you didn't get the required 70% average overall?

Sea time for second mates was four years. Mates a year and masters a further two {I think}.

What happened to the certificate (?) for passing out (?) from pre sea ~ in my case King Ted's London '57 ~ giving you remission against the four years for second mates? I'm 100% certain I never saw same; did they 'exist' or was it purely 'verbal' twixt College and employing shipping company.

Please feel free ~ in answering my questions ~ to raise any of your own on this subject, so that all 'facts' forthcoming are *contained under the same roof.

* Sorry to use the 'C' word but it does end in 'd' and not 'r'.

Graham
When I did Second Mates in 68/69 6 papers. GSK /Practical Nav / Principles of Nav / Chartwork /Maths /English. Pass mark 70 % GA.Both Nav papers and Chartwork were 70 % and the others 50.

By the time I came up for Mates I seem to remember they dropped it to 60 GA but some papers were still 70 %.
6 Papers for Mates Stability/ Navigation /Chartwork/ Met / Cargo work / ?

for Masters in the 70's it was 5 papers Compass / Ship Masters Buis / Stability / Eng and control systems / Radio Aids.

Regarding Remission Hull Trinity House Navigation School gave 6 months. For my sins I was sent to Warsash for MAR in 67 and they also gave 6 months.

Hope that helps
Alan

Duncan112
23rd March 2019, 12:09
Dont know why his discharge book was not updated mine was always stamped. As an apprentice my sea time was also recorded by my employer and it was recorded on my indentures. I never knew this until my indentures were returned to me on completion of my apprenticeship.

I can remember being penalised for having HT stamps in my discharge book, they would only count them as half time for a FG ticket

cheers Dave

Sailed with a Second Mate in Bank Line who related the tale that when he was getting ready to do Mates was asked to do a coastal. Knowing fine well that he stood a fair chance of being "Shanghaied" for the deep sea voyage he, and one other asked that the articles be endorsed for them to be discharged on conclusion of the coast. With bad grace, this was done but his book stamped HT.

He goes up to put his papers in and the Surveyor asked "Bank Line, Home Trade, what is this nonsense?" the explanation was duly offered, the surveyor took up his pen and stamp, crossed out HT and substituted FG.

IRW
23rd March 2019, 12:20
The 1962 regulations state has an apprentice must have served four fifths of his time at sea. 2 years 9 months sea time comes to mind. Details of sea time on back of Indentures. My Dis A had Indentured to Andrew Weir until my first voyage as 3/O. I seem to remember that Chartwork was first and if failed it was 'come back next moth'.All tickets had an overall pass of 70%. IRW

lakercapt
23rd March 2019, 13:08
When I sat for my masterers in 1962 there were four days of exams including orals so it could end up being five days.
There was an exam on Monday morning and one in the afternoon.
Both of these were failing papers requiring 80% pass mark. If you did not get that the rest of the exam even though you wrote it was not marked. Shipmasters business was one and the other I think navigation.
Meteorology and signals were in there too but they did not have the 80% pass. I don't recall the others but magnetism was thought another. and the whole exam required an 80% pass mark and the then orals on Thursday or Friday depending on the number of candidates. The exams were conducted in a building on Hope Street in Edinburgh which I thought apt!!!

Graham the pipe
23rd March 2019, 15:44
Thank you gentlemen ~ all six of you ~ and forgive me for not answering each post separately.

Your comments have revived many long distant memories, probably the most significant being that insignificant, small slip of paper with those small 'p's on, which we'd all strived so hard to attain.

Farmer John
23rd March 2019, 23:35
I was indentured for 3 years 6 months due to Pre-sea training, during which time I obtained "O" level Maths, Combined Science, Navigation and Seamanship. That was with Alfies, Pre-sea at Boulevard, Hull.

Kanbe
24th March 2019, 00:17
Sea time i.e signed on articles as cadet was 3 years 2 months and 12 days without any remission in 4 years, Between 12 months and 18 months for MATES, made up to 3 years 6 months for masters. 6 papers for all tickets - 2 @70%, [email protected]% and GSK no minimum for 2nd mates plus First Aid and Radar observers in 1961.

Winmar
24th March 2019, 06:00
This is really jarring the old memory. I seem to remember if you achieved the average pass of 70% but failed an individual paper they would give you a referral in that lowest scoring paper but if you didn't attain the 70% average you had to redo the lot. Also Graham, Met was on the 2nd mates exam also.

Graham the pipe
24th March 2019, 08:53
Thank you, again, for the last three, informative 'reminders'. Don't know whether the same 'flash backs' are happening to others (?), I'm almost but not quite physically back in Dock Street {London, for 'non southerners'}. Working hard, playing hard and ain't life grand when you're young, no ties, scruples or .......think I'd better stop 'right there'.

Kanbe
24th March 2019, 16:55
When I sat all my tickets from 1962 - 1967 if you failed any paper they stopped marking so you didn't know how well you had done. You only knew if you had passed all the papers if you failed on General Average. I also seem to remember that for mates navigation paper the first question was invariably one on Great sailing which required the initial and final courses and the latitudes through the lines of longitude passed at I seem to remember was every 10 degrees. This was for 140 marks which was the 70% required to pass. I leave to your imagination how one felt should you not get this one correct especially as it was the first question of that exam. For all tickets Signals and Orals were separate and if passed stood for 6 months should you fail any one of the other components

saudisid
24th March 2019, 21:36
Graham
When I did Second Mates in 68/69 6 papers. GSK /Practical Nav / Principles of Nav / Chartwork /Maths /English. Pass mark 70 % GA.Both Nav papers and Chartwork were 70 % and the others 50.

By the time I came up for Mates I seem to remember they dropped it to 60 GA but some papers were still 70 %.
6 Papers for Mates Stability/ Navigation /Chartwork/ Met / Cargo work / ?

for Masters in the 70's it was 5 papers Compass / Ship Masters Buis / Stability / Eng and control systems / Radio Aids.

Regarding Remission Hull Trinity House Navigation School gave 6 months. For my sins I was sent to Warsash for MAR in 67 and they also gave 6 months.

Hope that helps
Alan

Graham

I have found my Nichols Concise Guide Vol 1 from 1965. It lists the written papers in order
Second Mates [ FG ]
Day 1 GSK 3 hrs Chartwork 2 hrs
Day 2 Practical Navigation 3 hrs Maths 2 hrs
Day 3 Principles of Navigation 3 hrs English1.5 hrs

Mate [FG]
Day 1 Practical Navigation 3 Hrs Chartwork 2 hrs
Day 2 Ship Construction and Stability 3 hrs Met 2 hrs
Day 3 Ship Maintenance 3 Hrs Magnetism and Elect 2 Hrs

Master [ FG ]

Day 1 Practical Navigation 3 Hrs Magnetic Compass 3 Hrs
Day 2 Ship Construction 3 Hrs Ship Masters Business 2 Hrs
Day 3 Engineering and Radio Aids 3 Hrs Met 2 Hrs

By the time I came up for Masters in 74 the set up had changed

Day 1 Compass work 3 Hrs Ship Masters Buisiness 2 Hrs
Day 2 Stability & Ship Con 3 hrs Enginering 2 Hrs
Day 3 Radio Aids 3 Hrs

The comment about referals they only came in in the 70s
Hope that helps
Alan

Graham the pipe
25th March 2019, 15:27
Graham

I have found my Nichols Concise Guide Vol 1 from 1965. It lists the written papers in order
Second Mates [ FG ]
Day 1 GSK 3 hrs Chartwork 2 hrs
Day 2 Practical Navigation 3 hrs Maths 2 hrs
Day 3 Principles of Navigation 3 hrs English1.5 hrs

Mate [FG]
Day 1 Practical Navigation 3 Hrs Chartwork 2 hrs
Day 2 Ship Construction and Stability 3 hrs Met 2 hrs
Day 3 Ship Maintenance 3 Hrs Magnetism and Elect 2 Hrs

Master [ FG ]

Day 1 Practical Navigation 3 Hrs Magnetic Compass 3 Hrs
Day 2 Ship Construction 3 Hrs Ship Masters Business 2 Hrs
Day 3 Engineering and Radio Aids 3 Hrs Met 2 Hrs

By the time I came up for Masters in 74 the set up had changed

Day 1 Compass work 3 Hrs Ship Masters Buisiness 2 Hrs
Day 2 Stability & Ship Con 3 hrs Enginering 2 Hrs
Day 3 Radio Aids 3 Hrs

The comment about referals they only came in in the 70s
Hope that helps
Alan

Hi Alan.

Many thanks ~ exactly what I was trying to remember ~ should have looked in my own NCG shouldn't I?

Two totally irrelevant comments, you're part of that 'rather large' county of Yorkshire and I have a now 'grandma' daughter in the lovely village of Thorganby North Yorkshire. This is about 100 miles due south of Whitley Bay a place I fell in love with when drove up there for the wedding of my 3/0 colleague from my last voyage prior to coming ashore for masters (cost 14-0s-0p) a year after you sailed on your first voyage. Didn't find out 'til many years later that the harbour master and pilot was a 'Geordie' C/O I'd sailed with many years previously when was a 3/0.

Enough GGG 'rabbit'. Thanks again.

Tony Crompton
26th March 2019, 08:45
Even though the pass mark for Navigation was 70% lets hope
we all got 100% at sea or were the ships "lost" for 30% of the time!!

Graham the pipe
26th March 2019, 10:39
Even though the pass mark for Navigation was 70% lets hope
we all got 100% at sea or were the ships "lost" for 30% of the time!!

Fair comment Tony.

The thing that makes me laugh is that by the time you worked out a good, five position line 'star' cross, you weren't exactly where you'd just calculated. The frequently 'circulated' tale about a ship being in two, different positions at the same time also applies. 'Our' form of navigation and 'getting there' was just slightly different from present day GPS. Having said that I had GPS from '57 onwards ~ Graham's Plath Sextant

Stephen J. Card
26th March 2019, 10:48
I sat Master in Jan '81. I received a 'prize' of 20 (in 2 x 10 Boots vouchers) from the Glasgow college. As we know, the exact results of the exams are Pass or Failed. Every year the DTI tells the College who had the highest marks for Master for the year. I won. All I can think was there must have been very few people for Master's that year. I was never told the exact pass marks... just the highest. Probably I had 71% and the rest had 70%.

I am convinced one of the result was that instead of doing the 6 months at college I went for major cramming and sat after only three months. There were only six of us in the class. Four went for the full 6 months, two of us decided to do it at 3 months. In the end all of us passed. Another thing helped. I did not have sufficient sea time to do orals. Just doing the writtens. Not doing the orals took off a lot of the weight on the exams. Stayed at the college hostel. Finish class at 4.45. Five minutes to my room. Supper and by 6 I was back at the books. The college closed for two weeks over Christmas. Moved into a hotel and spent every minute at the books... even Xmas Day.

Right after the written exam I went to Bermuda and then flew to Reston Virginia. Spent three days sitting the Liberian Master's. A breeze. Most people can get an Liberian by getting a UK ticket and the fee. Their exam papers were quite different. 120 different papers. Some papers were just one question... calculations etc. Other papers might have several questions and some were multiple choice. This is how the 'orals' were covered. The stack of papers were on the examiners table. You cannot look through the pile. You must take the top page and go to work. Hand it in and take the next paper. If you have finished the paper, take a break for coffee or lunch or take the rest of the day off. Hotel on the other side of the street. They tell me most will take a week or two to complete. I took two and a half days. The examiner kept the tally of 'passed' or 'failed' and I was told as I left the room. Remember, this was just two weeks after sitting at Glasgow. No problem at all. Less than a week after that I was loading grapes Valparaiso.


Stephen

Stephen J. Card
26th March 2019, 10:52
G[/B]raham's Plath Sextant
[/I]



Could you hold the pipe between teeth and take a sight at the same time? One advantage with GPS I guess. (I guess. I never sailed with GPS._

:-)

Graham the pipe
26th March 2019, 17:21
Yes, even I had dark hair at one time Stephen but you're right, pipe out of orifice then take 'sex' in right hand etc.

Read your CV young man and am suitably impressed. When can you start and just so you know in advance, ALL our ships have engines that actually work in bad weather.


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