Hog Islander hull plating

MT Hopper
25th May 2012, 06:48
Firstly apoligies if this is the wrong forum for my questions.
I am an Airlubber and have become hooked on tramp steamers.
I have started to build a model of a Hog Islander to use as a tramp to haul sugar between Cuba and the U.S.A. in the 1930's era.
My questions regard the hull plating on a Hog.
1/ Where one hull plate joined sideways to the next hull plate beside it were the seams joggled?
2/ Same question but applied to where the bottom of one hull plate joins the top edge of the hull plate below it.
Just to be sure, terminology reality check. Joggled is also a form of lapstrake (aka clinker) or in wood a lap joint?
Does this hull plating seam joint method apply to my Hog? Or is it like the Titanic with In strakes and Out strakes plus unnamed strakes for the side to side joints?
Cheers from the Heart of North America
Will

vectiscol
25th May 2012, 21:53
In British shipyard terminology, the longitudinal joints (i.e. along the length of the plates) are called seams, and the transverse/vertical joints (between the ends of the plates) are butts. I confess that I know nothing of Hog Islanders - please enlighten us! - but a common practice was to rivet the seams and weld the butts. Does any member know when this started?

MT Hopper
26th May 2012, 19:35
Thank you for your reply now I know my seam from my butt ( although some would dispute that)(Jester).
The US Shipping Board formed the Emergency Fleet Corporation to design and build sufficient shipping for the US to conduct operations in WWI.Hog Island, near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was the site of the main shipyard (where Philadelphias International Airport is now located). It had 50 shipways, 7 wet basins and a holding basin. It was the first shipyard ever built for mass production of ships from fabricated parts and sub-assemblies. The intention was to build two main designs EFC Type A (1022) cargo and EFC Type B (1024) troop. While the intent was to provide shipping during WWI, the first vessel wasn't launched till 1918 and the 122nd in 1922. As a result most were used post WWI and many used during WWII (with 58 sunk).
For my model and diorama I am using 1/48th scale. The Type A (1022) Hog seems the most suitable to have at dockside in Cuba taking sugar onboard in 1930 -1939. At this scale the hull detail is fairly evident and thus my interest in how the hull plating was done. In virtually all the few photos I can find the hull seems relatively smooth BUT in the photos of a silver presentation model built in the late 1920's the hull appears to have the IN and OUT strakes plating. So I'm at a bit of a loss as to how the hull should look.

Cheers from the Heart of North America
Will

ddonner
27th May 2012, 04:09
Esteemed Senior Member Vectiscol, thank you for the termonology definitions, one of which I had not previously been aware. Best Wishes.

vectiscol
27th May 2012, 17:34
I have only ever worked on one riveted ship, she being of composite welded seams and riveted butts. However, my father was a shell plater in a British shipyard, and I have some of his text books dating from when he was an apprentice attending night classes at technical college from about 1937 to 1942. From these precious volumes there were five systems of riveted construction, being briefly:

a) Ordinary raised and sunken (or in/out) which required plate liners between the frames and the outer strakes, and therefore added appreciably to the hull weight.
b) In/out with joggled frames in order that the plates fitted snugly for riveting, and to eliminate the plate liners.
c) In/out system using joggled plates, which reduced the displacement but which was costly and difficult to repair, particularly in ports or small yards with limited facilities.
d) Clinker plating, which required tapered liners but which was claimed to close the joint under stress, and thus was employed for the bottom shell of tankers.
e) Flush plating with outside edge strips and butt straps, which had greater strength but were not used underwater because of the added resistance.

Unfortunately that does not answer Mr Hopper's original query about which system was employed on Hog Islanders, but hopefully another of our many members worldwide will come to his assistance. Meanwhile Mr Donner, in riveted construction have you ever heard of a coffin plate, an oxter plate or a stealer plate?

surfaceblow
27th May 2012, 18:33
Here is a picture of a type B right out of the yard.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h00001/h00797.jpg

and http://www.kadiak.org/ships/mihiel2169x1307.jpg
Joe

chadburn
27th May 2012, 20:01
Thank you for your reply now I know my seam from my butt ( although some would dispute that)(Jester).
The US Shipping Board formed the Emergency Fleet Corporation to design and build sufficient shipping for the US to conduct operations in WWI.Hog Island, near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was the site of the main shipyard (where Philadelphias International Airport is now located). It had 50 shipways, 7 wet basins and a holding basin. It was the first shipyard ever built for mass production of ships from fabricated parts and sub-assemblies. The intention was to build two main designs EFC Type A (1022) cargo and EFC Type B (1024) troop. While the intent was to provide shipping during WWI, the first vessel wasn't launched till 1918 and the 122nd in 1922. As a result most were used post WWI and many used during WWII (with 58 sunk).
For my model and diorama I am using 1/48th scale. The Type A (1022) Hog seems the most suitable to have at dockside in Cuba taking sugar onboard in 1930 -1939. At this scale the hull detail is fairly evident and thus my interest in how the hull plating was done. In virtually all the few photos I can find the hull seems relatively smooth BUT in the photos of a silver presentation model built in the late 1920's the hull appears to have the IN and OUT strakes plating. So I'm at a bit of a loss as to how the hull should look.

Cheers from the Heart of North America
Will

In the early day's the Hull plating was done by the Yard Model maker making a Half Model (1/4 inch to 1 foot) and each scaled down individual ships plate was attached to it to see if there were any problem's (ie positioning of Butts), after any problems were sorted the plates were removed and scaled up to the full size version.

MT Hopper
28th May 2012, 06:49
Coffin plate - plate used to connect the flat plate keel to the stern frame.
Oxter plate - Bent shell plate which fits around upper part of sternpost, also called tuck plate.
Stealer plate - A plate extending into an adjoining strake as at the end of a drop strake

Cheers
MT

MT Hopper
28th May 2012, 06:52
Thanks for the help. From the photo of the type B it "seems" to be flush plated?

Cheers
MT

MT Hopper
28th May 2012, 17:24
Here is a closeup of type A hull. Is this flush plated?

Cheers
MT Hopper

A.D.FROST
28th May 2012, 18:01
A riviteted ship is not smooth.Butts are overlapped and seams overlap the plate above and below.I have a photo. of the BARNABY which shows this and is a typical rivited ship.27671

China hand
28th May 2012, 18:37
I was in a German built 1955 Israeli ship. Joggle plated, superb lines, really well built. "Shomron". Beautiful ship.

MT Hopper
28th May 2012, 22:12
Thank you for your responses. I gather then that a Hog would have Lap Strake ( aka clinker) style plating. Were the plates or the frames joggled?

Cheers
Will

MT Hopper
1st June 2012, 21:29
What is slightly amusing is when I search online for the answer to my question I always end up with several sources that are me! Apparently my simple question makes me a google authority on Hog Islander hull plating.
When I said "smooth" hull I meant it "seems" smooth relative to an IN/OUT strake plated hull. So far the answer "seems" to be given the war time situation, the costs and the rapidity with which the vessels were required: 1/ the hulls were NOT welded 2/ the hull plating was lap strake ( or clinker) for ease and rapidity of construction and cost. 3/ flush plating was too costly and required more skilled workers than were available..

Cheers
Will
p.s. by putting this answer out in the open someone on the planet who actually knows may get irritated and respond

needadditionalinformation
28th January 2014, 19:19
What is slightly amusing is when I search online for the answer to my question I always end up with several sources that are me! Apparently my simple question makes me a google authority on Hog Islander hull plating.
When I said "smooth" hull I meant it "seems" smooth relative to an IN/OUT strake plated hull. So far the answer "seems" to be given the war time situation, the costs and the rapidity with which the vessels were required: 1/ the hulls were NOT welded 2/ the hull plating was lap strake ( or clinker) for ease and rapidity of construction and cost. 3/ flush plating was too costly and required more skilled workers than were available..

Cheers
Will
p.s. by putting this answer out in the open someone on the planet who actually knows may get irritated and respond

I will try to look in my old books and find an answer for you, but to the best of my knowledge, they were plated "in and out".

Clinker/lapstrake plating usually required the fitting of wedge-shaped "liners" between the plating and frames, hardly the thing to have new people trying to do in a wartime emergency while trying to maximize production. Neither would counter-sinking the plates for counter-sunk rivet heads.

Joggled plating was never, as near as I can tell, a common American practice. It seemed more common in Europe.

I'll look and see what I can find, but I'm even more sure welding was absolutely not in any way involved in those vessels. The Liberty Ships of WWII were different, but more than 20 years had passed by then.

And just to add, the 3 photos attached/linked to this thread show ships that are plainly plated "in and out", there is plainly uniform shadow and uniform depth perceptibility with the "in strakes" as compared to a tapering shadow/recess culminating in an overlap as Lapstrake/Clinker would have. Judging from this, and the fact that that form of plating seemed to predominate then anyway, I would guess that to be the case with the rest of them.

And don't be fooled by the photos of apparently American WWI troopships, and their riveting, as so many of them were seized German liners who'd been hiding out in American ports post 1914.

MT Hopper
25th September 2014, 20:56
Well I finally found out at least one thing about the hulls. From an account of the sinking of the Liberty Glo, a Hog Islander. She broke near the rivets ..... .
Now on to plating method.

Will

sidsal
25th September 2014, 23:21
Just after ww2 I was 3rd mate in Brocklebanks and the union chap in Liverpool said there was a job going ona Hog island ship going to trade on the China coast. Very good wages etc. I turned it down as I had just arrived at the Pool and hadn't had any leave. However I had to stand by the ship for a while before going on leave andone evening the Hog Islander came into the dock having hit the dock wall whilst going down river. I went aboard and she was a mess - the master was half cut and I was glad I hadn'tsigned on her.

Now inmy book a Hog Island ship was distinctive as the bow and stern seemed to bend down with the midships accommodation seeming to stand proud. I understood that the Americans had miscalculated and they thought the weight of the engine wheninstalled wouod straghten the ship. Not only were they built in Hog Island but the hulls were definitely hogged. The photo of the passenger ships dosn't ring a bell at all. To me Hog Island ships were smallish cargo ships only - 2 hatches forrd and 2 aft with the bridge and a bit of accommodation midships and Woodbine funnel. They were the WW1 equivalent of the Libertis of WW2.

MT Hopper
26th September 2014, 17:52
Thank you sidsal. I didn't know that about the Hogs.

From the Heart of North America
Will

MT Hopper
26th September 2014, 17:57
http://www.shipscribe.com/mckellar/pix/1022.html

This is the url for a side view and photos of a Hog. No. 3 Hold is midship.

Cheers
Will